Episode 254: Friendships Lost and Found with Christie Tate

“Vulnerability begets vulnerability.”

- Christie Tate

Kate realizes her vision board has a theme and Doree considers creating her own planner. Then, Christie Tate joins the podcast to discuss her new book B.F.F.: A Memoir of Friendship Lost and Found, the strength we allow our own narratives to have on our lives, and the article that got her hate mail from Libya. 

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Transcript

 

Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35. This is a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. And I'm Kate Spencer. 

Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir. 

Kate: And we're not experts. 

Doree: Oh, we are not. We're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums 

Kate: And you know, can visit our website Forever35podcast. For links to everything we mentioned on the show, our Instagram @Forever35podcast, there is a Forever35 Facebook group or the password to serums. You can find our favorite products shopmy.us/forever35. You can also sign up for the Forever35 newsletter, forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And if you would like to reach us, we have a voicemail and a text message number at (781) 591-0390, and our email is Forever35podcast@gmail.com. 

Doree: We should also mention that we are doing a live show on Wednesday forever. Forever. 

Kate: We should also, this is that. That's the best error you've ever made. Wednesday Forever35 

Doree: We should also mention that we are doing a live show on Wednesday, February 22nd at 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern. You can get your tickets at moment.co/Forever35. There's going to be games. There's going to be Chit Chat. There's going to be a Q and A. It's going to be a party. 

Kate: Shoud I free mug Doree? Should I Free mug? 

Doree: I mean, listen, Kate, you do you. I will not be free mugging. Near my computer. Are you insane? But you know, you do you 

Kate: Okay. I'll do me 

Doree: Please. Tickets are $10, and if you can't make the actual time, if you have a ticket, you can watch the show for a week after it airs on demand. And also we're going to be ending the night with some final thoughts and intentions at a little after party, a little cozy after party in the hotel lounge. And I think that's when things might get really real, if you know what I'm saying. 

Kate: I can't wait to see you get real, because I'm down too, 

Doree: As opposed to how fake I've been until now. 

Kate: I actually find you to be very real all the time. You know what I mean? 

Doree: Thank you. Yeah. 

Kate: Yeah. You're 

Doree: Really nice. 

Kate: You are very, very authentic to who you are person, and I really like that about you. 

Doree: Wow. That is such a compliment. Thank you. I mean, I think you are too, duh. 

Kate: Oh, that's nice of you. I've had to work on that for me though, I tend to mean maybe we all do 

Doree: Its a process. 

Kate: right. Yeah, it is. 

Doree: We all do. Yeah, I think we all do. 

Kate: Well, I'm really looking forward to that. It's going to be a blast. 

Doree: Well, Kate, 

Kate: Hello. 

Doree: Hello. How's it going? 

Kate: Well, I mean there's a lot happening with me and I honestly don't know where to begin. I have so many things to share with you. 

Doree: Oh wow. Okay. 

Kate: I mean, they're not like life-changing things, but kind of self-carey things that have kind of been happening over here in Kate's corner. 

Doree: Okay. Kate. I will say Kate, corner of the world, 

Kate: Kate's corner of the world, very small corner. It's where only I am. What is interesting, Sorry. I did a vision board. I made a vision board. If you're not familiar with vision boards, it's essentially a practice of you can do it. There's no right or wrong way to do it. I like to do it with imagery and words. So I do your kind of standard cutting pictures out of a magazine and pasting them onto a board. But there are so many different ways to kind of create vision boards if you're curious, Google and find what resonates with you. Because again, no right or wrong way, but I sat and I did this, did it for two nights two Fridays in a row with a friend. And what ended up happening, which I just thought was interesting, is that when I started, I kind of cut out a lot of things that were very career related things I thought I wanted. I printed out the New York Times bestseller list and then I was going to cut that out and put it on my vision board for as an author. And then when I got down to actually pasting and creating this vision board, what ended up happening was that the things I was drawn to, the images and ideas I was drawn to were all about relaxing and 

Doree: Interesting. 

Kate: It has really got me thinking a little bit about stuff. This is kind of aligns with the fact that I had a phone call with my doctor just about my body and blood work and stuff I've been dealing with and kind of really trying to, I think, heal from being really burnt out and run down and having that kind of come out in the fact that I have no iron stores, basically. My body is pretty run down at this point. And yeah, I, I'll send you a photo of my vision board, Doree, but it's pictures of people paddle boarding pictures of the ocean sunset, really just, it's a lot of nature. People hiking and the words I put on it are bright wonder, sleep, becoming more of yourself, take a break of a picture of a person meditating, a person of picture walking on the beach and also come home to comfort was a quote I put on there. I did not put New York Times bestseller on my vision board. In fact, it stressed me out thinking about that. And it just kind of hit me that I have been really going hard and I think I've been in this kind of place where I am really ready to rest, not work and not create, not write and not promote my books and make this podcast, but prioritizing rest and relaxation and things that make me feel per my word of the year. Things that are gentle on me and calm. So I don't know, this is just, I stop, for example, the way I've been exercising is completely changed. I'm not doing any high intensity workouts or huge heavy lifts. And a lot of the way my, I'm moving my body is pickleball with friends and my horseback riding lesson and going for long walks and I just have, I don't know what has shifted or I, I mean, I do know what has shifted. I think a lot of it is really checking in with my health and how I'm feeling. But yeah, I don't know. I keep staring at this vision board and I'm like, oh, okay. My truest seems like my more honest desires came out. 

Doree: Wow, this is big Kate. 

Kate: I don't know, is it? I mean, I don't have any plans to go paddle boarding or backpacking or to a beach, but maybe it's just that the energy of that is what is resonating with me. 

Doree: I feel like you've talked before about wanting to get, be more in nature 

Kate: And I am even just going for walks every day with my dogs or without my dogs and not listening to anything. Not making a phone call, just feeling the sunshine, smelling the air, looking at the trees. I find really grounding and I would like to, I do aspire to hike more and to even go backpacking and camping this year a little bit more than I have before. But I think it's more, I really need to honor the fact that I need a little bit of a rest. And what does that realistically look like as a human being who also has to earn a living and take care of their family and make sure the dogs take their heart more medicine. 

Doree: Yes, 

Kate: I do delegate things anyway, I don't know, just thinking, anyway, listen, if anyone vision boarded this year, I'd be very curious as to how it came out. And now I also want to say I'd be pretty psyched if any of my books ever became New York Times bestsellers. It's not like I don't want that. Those are all things like, yes, please, I want to write books forever and have billions of people read them. But I think I also just want to sleep this year a little bit. 

Doree: Yeah, I mean it's tough, right? Because we live in a capitalistic society so 

Kate: Well, and also 

Doree: Those things are not always prioritized. 

Kate: No, I mean they are most certainly not. And we can get into the many ways in which they are not at all prioritized or valued. Or if someone chooses to pursue a more balanced or calm life, oftentimes that is not seen as worthy. Right? 

Doree: Yeah. I mean, look, I've been hanging out a lot in the anti work subreddit and I feel like there's a lot that people could learn from that subreddit. 

Kate: There is an anti work subreddit? What happens in there? What do people just talk about? Not how to work less. I like this. 

Doree: People talk about quitting jobs that are shitty, where they're taken advantage of, underpaid, et cetera. I think ultimately the idea is that people want to be treated with respect at work and be compensated fairly, but also have work life balance, which I think is part of what you are really talking about. You're not saying you only want to rest. You never want to work. 

Kate: No. I love the work that I get to do. I love my jobs. 

Doree: That you want to also prioritize this other aspect that is going to have a positive impact on your mental and physical health. 

Kate: Well, and will allow me to actually do quality work. This is the kind of, I'm so grateful that I am my own boss, but also when you are your own boss, the first thing that goes for me out of my day is anything that would be considered relaxing. Like, oh, I can't do this 20 minute yoga class today. I've got to work. I remove everything out in order to focus on work. And so truly, I think this is really a message to myself about how I manage my own needs and my own time. 

Doree: Yeah, I mean, I guess I would just caution you against framing it as resting is in the service of doing better work. Because I thinks thats a slippery slope 

Kate: And just as resting is in the service of doing a better me. 

Doree: Yeah. Resting is in the service of resting. 

Kate: I like that. Doree, thank you. That's a really good reminder. Thank you. Now 

Doree: you're welcome. 

Kate: I want to switch gears a little bit because you ordered something and you've been holding onto it. 

Doree: I did. 

Kate: And waiting to tell us about it. 

Doree: It's interesting. We're sort of talking about two sides of the same coin. I think because I have been feeling, I wanted some structure in terms of goal setting, a lot of which are professional goals, but also some non-professional goals and feeling like I needed more of a roadmap to help me just reach those goals. So yeah, I was really looking for a goal setting planner, and I looked around online a bunch and this all sort of came out when I started doing that thing on Notion, the app where I saw someone on TikTok who had a 12 week plan and I was like, oh, I like that. I like the 12 week plan. And someone that we had interviewed, I think it was Whitney Cummings, talked about having, doing things in three month blocks. I was that. So I was looking around for a three month goal planner and I saw a comment on a wire cutter article where someone was like, I love the full focus planner. So I was like, okay, let me check this out. And I was like, okay, this looks like it has a lot of aspects to it that I think will be helpful. It is three months, but it does have you set annual goals. It really encourages you to break down each goal, how you're going to do it. Also, what is motivating you, what's motivating you to even want this goal? How are you going to celebrate yourself when you reach the goal, which I think is an important aspect of reaching a goal, is you should celebrate yourself and giving in a lot of ways to track your progress. And then there's also daily pages where you just list out your three most important tasks of the day. There's a weekly preview, there's just a lot happening. So the planner arrived yesterday and I have started filling it out. I feel like the jury is still out. I've obviously only had it for one day, so I can't really evaluate. My one thing that so far is not sitting completely well with me is don't the planner's vibe 

Kate: The planner? 

Doree: I don't the planner's energy. 

Kate: What's so funny, you sent me a picture of the planner and I feel like it had a really cliched quote on the page and I was like, Hmm, oh my God. Where, let me see if I can find it. It kind of strikes me. 

Doree: It was it, it wrapped, it came wrapped in a, there was a, what do you call those things? It's a strip of paper wrapped around the strip of, 

Kate: Sure, I know what you mean. 

Doree: You know I mean wrapped around the planner and there's a quote from the founder of the company, not even a great quote. And then there was also a little thing encouraging you to buy their course. So what I'm gathering from this full focus planner is that the planners are meant as a way in for you to then purchase a million other things, courses, coaching, listen to their podcasts. It's a whole industry. And I think that, I don't love, it honestly feels a little culty. The guy who founded the company has his own quotes in here in addition to Michelle Obama. So that just feels a little corny. Everything is trademarked. It just feels 

Kate: fascinating. 

Doree: It not my vibe. So I'm still, I'm going to do it. It's also expensive. It's only a three month planner and it was like $40. So if you're doing this four times a year, you're spending $160 on these planners every year, which is a lot. But I'm going to do it. And then I'm considering possibly designing my own planner, my own goal planner that has a better vibe, that has better energy. 

Kate: And would you sell it or would it be just for you? 

Doree: I dunno, maybe I would sell it as a download or something. I don't want to get into the planner production business because I don't need to get into that. But I don't know. And there was nothing out there in the marketplace that was exactly really what I was looking for. This really came the closest and it's just not me. 

Kate: It's like when you go on a first date with someone and they're nice and you like them, but you don't have that oof 

Doree: No, if it honestly feels very masculine, it has a lot of startup bro, masculine energy tinged with, I have to say, I'm getting an evangelical Christian vibe also. 

Kate: Okay. 

Doree: It's very weird. Very weird vibe from this planner, but who knows, maybe it will help me reach my goals. So we'll see kind of the opposite vibe of what you described with the vision board. I think I need to find the happy medium. 

Kate: Yeah, well, you need to find what works best for you. 

Doree: Yeah, exactly. So I just, it's okay. I've update everyone. 

Kate: I'm excited for you to at least try it out and perhaps through using it, you'll find you'll kind of continue to discover what you really need in order to create totally these goal setting plans. 

Doree: Totally, totally, totally. That's what I'm hoping. So yeah, that's my update. Kate, should we introduce our guest? 

Kate: Take it away. Okay. 

Doree: We got to interview this week. Christie Tate, who is a fascinating human being in addition to being a Chicago based writer and essayist whose work has been published in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, MC Sweeney just goes on and on and on. She's also the author of the New York Times bestseller group, which was a Reese's Book Club selection. And her new book is called BFF, A Memoir of Friendship Lost and Found. And it comes out on Tuesday. So if you like what you hear, which I mean I think you will put in a little pre-order for Christie's book or order by the time you listen to it and go down to your local bookshop, however you choose to purchase your books. And, check it out. She had some really profound things to say about friendship and relationships and family history, family trauma. Yeah. I really got a lot out of our conversation. 

Kate: I'm really excited to share it with everyone. So let's take a little break and we'll come back with Christie. 

Doree: All right. 

Kate: Hi Christie. Welcome to Forever35. We're very glad you're here. 

Christie: I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Kate: We're very excited to talk to you and all about your new book, but we like to ask every guest at the top of every interview to please share, if you can think of one, a self-care practice that is meaningful in your regular life. Daily. Doesn't need to be daily life, but just in your day-to-day. 

Christie: Yeah, I would say that the number one thing that I do for myself is exercise. And I cringe a little when I talk about it because I don't mean it. Get in shape, have a firm abs. I mean, get my endorphins up so that I can have that boost. I just need the boost. I really need the boost. I'm a morose person. I live in Chicago. It's gray a lot. And I need that to just stay, to stay on the right side of morbidity, all kinds of morbidity. 

Doree: I find that very relatable. And I'm curious what, is there a particular kind of exercise that you enjoy? 

Christie: Yes, and my family makes so much fun of me. So I'm going to tell you and you can be on my side, not theirs. So I almost ride a stationary bike and I don't like anyone yelling at me or music. I find that assaultive and it makes me feel like it's the eighties and that someone's yelling at me to burn the fat. So what I do is I turn all that down and I read a book while I'm working now, I still sweat. I get a better workout if I didn't read a book while perched on the handlebars and my wrists would not have carpal tunnel probably. But there's two things that I know I need to read and I need to exercise. And there's only so many hours in the day. So about three years ago, I put 'em together and that's what I do. And it's working for me. Although it does not look very hardcore. It is hardcore. 

Kate: Well, it's mentally and physically hardcore. It is hardcore to read and move your body at the same time. Yes, I could barely watch a full TV show and pay attention while I'm also remembering my legs are moving. The fact that you're doing your, you're digesting written material while physically moving is a feat. 

Christie: Yes. Yeah. I can't do thrillers on the bike because I'll fall off. But more literary fiction and memoirs, I found it very compatible. And it's just, it's my 45 minutes and I fight for it every day because the benefits are just too great to ignore. 

Kate: And you're not doing an audio book, let's be clear. You are holding an actual book. 

Christie: Yes. Yeah. Honestly, I've done a few, I've done a really big ones, the love songs of W E B Dubois. It's like a 500 page book. That's a little tricky. A paperback skinnier book is better, but I'll kind of do whatever. 

Kate: So can I just ask about your stationary bike? Because we are in this world, especially post covid or not I'm, excuse me. We're in this world of, we've been through this pandemic, we're still in this pandemic, but a lot of us started exercising at home. Did you get a snazzy fancy Peloton exercise bike? Or are you on a It's 1992 and I'm on a traditional stationary bike. 

Christie: Yes. So we got a Peloton because my husband, I used to be a gym goer before the Peloton, I mean before the pandemic. And as soon as the pandemic hit, my husband was like, what are you going to do for exercise? And I was like, I don't know. We were all very scared. So yeah, we ordered a Peloton. And what's funny now is I did classes for three weeks and then I just felt like, why are they yelling at me? I know that's their job and people respond to that. But it was such a traumatic time for everyone. Of course, the yelling wasn't working for me. And so that's early. We got it on March 17th, 2020. 

Kate: Oh my goodness. 

Christie: So that was pretty prescient to see. 

Kate: Wow, okay. Yeah. 

Christie: And then very early, by April I was already reading on the bike. And so it's so silly. We bought the fancy bike for the classes and I don't do the classes. So joke is on me, I think. But 

Kate: No, I think it's speaks to the fact that that is not for everybody. And in many ways that's just fitness has been streamlined into that in so many ways. And that isn't how all of us respond. That's doesn't always connect for all of us in terms of how we want to move our bodies or be spoken to or yes or motive. What motivates us. I think you make a good point. I also do one, I've been walking a lot lately and trying to take in my surroundings and figure out things that I get from the walk other than just the fitness aspect of it. And I think by reading on the bike, you kind of turn it into this interesting practice of it being about a lot more than what exercise has become in kind of our westernized culture. 

Christie: Exactly, exactly. I spent a lot of years battling my body. I need need to be on the same side as my body. I need my mind to be there too. And so I have to feed it all at once or it's too quickly. I can too quickly turn it into self abuse. And I got to have the book to distract me from going too hard. And the bike distracts me from being too dissociated while I read. It's a very delicate Jenga situation. 

Kate: I love that. I think you've, really figured out what works for you, which is so hard with all the kind of influences of the world around us, it's often hard to figure out what actually is vital for ourselves. I'm curious, is that a skill you've recently acquired? Is that something you've worked on? 

Christie: Oh, for sure. I'm certainly a work in progress and I found maybe you have this too, I'll be 50 in June and a lot of my friends are turning 50 or have already met that milestone, which is arbitrary of course, but, and maybe it's the pandemic too, but just talking about what is real self-care, what do we really want? Some of my friends are ballers and they're real estate agents and they're hitting their highs and they, they're enjoying it in the time of their lives. And some people just want to have a quieter life. And it's interesting to have these conversations with friends. Most of my friends are women, and they're the ones I'm talking about this with. They're all, it's, instead of thinking, well I'm, am I supposed to be grabbing the world by the horns or can I just go on a walk and make myself vegetables from my garden? Can it be enough to figure out what my own's heart desire is, which takes many years in my experience, and then to execute it and then to not apologize for it and to just live into it. Those things are really hard. And I'm grateful for all the women in my life who are having these conversations with me because it's not, everyone has to find it for themselves. So I'm feeling support in the journey. And it may change. I may want to be loud this year and next year I may want to go real quiet and there's no rules. I think my friends are my scaffolding for whatever path I choose at any point in time. 

Doree: You know, met Meredith, the subject of your book at a 12 step meeting and your previous book, which I have to admit I have not read so I apologize for that. But your previous book was about group therapy and I'm wondering what you think it is about these types of meetings that really facilitate friendship or maybe they don't, and this was unusual. 

Christie: I think that they do. I think my experience in both group therapy and 12 step meetings, which are similar in many respects, in my experience, it's all about a call, an invitation to be vulnerable and to tell your story. And in those situations, many things are stripped away, especially in a 12 step program where the guideline is to leave your occupation, your status at the door. And when we come to these chairs, we're all just sufferers seeking a solution for whatever ails us in several programs. So I always have to remember which, where am I today? And so I find just the atmosphere, other people like vulnerability, begets vulnerability. And for me, in spaces where I can be most vulnerable and other people are as well, that's when I'm the most ripe to make a connection. So it makes sense to me that I would've made very strong connections in these two places where I've sort of been stripped away. Not only have status, but often of my own bullshit, my own, all the things that, all the narratives in my head that tell me I can't, I'm not good enough. This I, I'd rather be alone. Those are all lies I tell to myself and they just aren't as loud in those rooms, 

Doree: One thing that I have thought a lot about is the narratives of our own lives that we tell ourselves. And I felt like that was a lot of what your book was about as well, especially when it came to your childhood. And we talk a lot on this podcast about reframing the narrative. And I do think that is such an important skill to be able to develop. Wondering if you could talk a little bit about that in relation to writing your memoir and whether there was kind of additional reframing that happened while you were writing or had you kind of done all the processing and then just put it down onto paper? 

Christie: Yeah. My process around writing memoir, the two memoirs I've written have been, it's just all so much messy. It's so messy. As I'm writing, I'm having experiences with friends, it's revising my life, therefore the book had to be revised. And this idea of revision, which I like to really take that word apart, it means seeing myself in a new way. Revision and reframe is another really great, just empowering words. And so I had this story about I'm not a good friend, I can't be close to women cause I'm super competitive and I can trace that back to my sister and I just like that would just roll off my tongue and I just let that be okay for years and years and years. 

Doree: Well, and you were comfortable in that narrative. 

Christie: Yeah, that's the thing. The part about reframing and revision is even if I have a story that is harmful to me or self abusive or limiting in very obvious ways, letting go is still painful. And I don't quite understand that part of my human nature. But there's a mourning, it had been comfortable to hide out in this story. I didn't have to take risks, I didn't have to be vulnerable. It was kind of like you throw up your hand, I would throw up my hands and say, oh, I just kind of suck at this. So this, of course, the relationship went combust instead of doing the hard work of saying, this is hard, I'm scared, here's what, here's playing with, where are you? And it just, so yes, I had to revise parts as I was living in my friendships. It was really scary. It didn't feel as tidy. My first book group, it was all farther in the past. And so the iterative process between life and the book where it was, that was a long time ago. I'm not that person anymore, but BFF comes straight up into the shores of my daily life. So there was much more, it was much more unwieldy and scary. 

Kate: Can I ask just kind of a follow up question about our families and how it impacts how we make and maintain friendships, because I had never really, I think you talk about this so clearly and I had never made this connection that not only my family trauma is going to impact how I am in friendship relationships, but also how I view myself within the context of my family. I would just love to hear how you made initially made that connection. And if you feel like healing family trauma influences our ability to be better friends. 

Christie: Oh my God, totally. I was about to say, I could write a book about that. No, I did 

Kate: You did. Oh, don't worry, you dont have to do it. 

Christie: That went to press. I just love this topic so much because I feel like I was saying words all these years and I was fairly sophisticated psychologically, but it doesn't matter because I had my blind spots and you can't, no matter how brilliant you are, I'm not even saying I was brilliant, but the blind spots are the blind spots. And what I carried with me from my family of origin was I literally thought that I was the reason my father had a drinking problem. It was because I cried all the time. I had put this all together, I locked down that story and what I had to really, when I peeled that back, first of all, it wasn't true. I found out when I was like 27 or 28, my dad started drinking when he was 16 long, like, yeah, 15 years before I was ever even born. So I was like, oh. And I remember feeling relief upon hearing that because then little baby Christie's kind of absolved. But also, and more importantly, I didn't feel like I had a big role in the story anymore. If I was the cause of his alcoholism, which is ridiculous. People don't cause alcoholism. But when I was the cause of his alcoholism, I felt like I was important. I was significant. I was really bonded to him in this way, not a great way, but at least I had a starring role. And when I became right sized by learning that the disease of alcoholism is much more complex and little babies dont cause it, then I was just like, well, I was just a little baby with colic. What's great about that? Who cares about that kid? So I had to really, there was a lot of ego and trauma, of course trauma in there. The fact that I ever, for one second thought alcoholism was my fault, is pretty telling of what kind of things I put on my own shoulders. So when I'm walking around in the world trying to form relationships with girls who, girls and later women who weren't in my mind, weren't a reason to drink, they weren't causes of alcoholism, but I was, and I just carried this huge shame, this huge shame. I'm toxic. If you get too close to me, a bad thing will happen to you. And that was just, that's just the blow up of a lie that I carried since I was a baby. So I don't know how other people may be able to, I could not untangle my present day relationships with friends until I could look back at what I had brought forward from my family. 

Doree: I also just wanted to I guess, highlight a really poignant scene in your book at your younger sister Virginia's christening. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Christie: Yes. 

Doree: Where your dad says, this is the baby we had after I got sober. She's our miracle baby. I mean, yeah. Woo, that. So I'm sure well, as you write, that just kind of compounds all these feelings of Well, she's the pure one. Yes, she's the good one. So one thing that I really liked that you did in this book is, you know, write about these conversations you had with Merideth where you're kind of unpacking all of your family trauma and you say it several times, oh, I can't believe I haven't gotten over this. Why am I still hung up on this is so, this is so insignificant. And she's like, no, this is the trauma that you're working through. And I think for a lot of us, when we think about that family trauma, yeah, it does kind of sound insignificant. And then it's like, well no, it's not actually. So I really kind of appreciated how you did that. And I guess on the flip side, my other question is do you think that your parents could have done anything differently when you were growing up that might have not allowed these narratives to grow in your brain? Not to say that it's your parents' fault, but I'm just curious also as a mom. 

Kate: Yeah, I know raising kids, 

Doree: Raising kids, I'm sure your parents didn't mean to create this narrative, but 

Christie: for sure 

Doree: they did. Yeah. I don't know. Am I making any sense? 

Christie: Yeah. You are. And I certainly think about this all the time and what I'm super aware of when I too am a mother, and I'm very sensitive about this and I have, my daughter is older and she's super sensitive about it's harder to be an older sister. My husband and I are both second borns. And so she thinks we'll always side with her little brother. Oh my gosh, she's very, very, it's sort of like I got exactly the right child and I don't know, of course I don't want to replicate anything that harmed me or wrong what my best guess at this is to let my daughter have her say without being defensive. Now I'm totally, totally defensive, but I ask her, how does this feel? What do you think? What's your perception? And I try to have as many conversations about how my children, both of them perceive favoritism and sibling rivalry and who do we side with. I mean, they're really, really paying attention and they're, the examples that come out of their mouth are nothing that I'm thinking of. It's something that feels like, wait, I have such a good reason for why my son got this and my daughter got that. And it's like from the parent vantage point, it's completely the right thing for the right child. But to them it just looks like one of them got a birthday party and the other one didn't. And to let them have those conversations and to let them share how it feels to be them without trying to change their reality. I'm not saying I do this, I'm saying I'm striving for that. And other than that, I do think that in some ways in my family growing up there was sort of a mismatch. I was an emotional needy child and I wanted to be held really, really close, maybe closer than most, I don't know. And my parents were not as a available that I don't think that appeal being held close does not appeal to them. The kind of intimacy I've been in training for with all my therapy and recovery in which I think my heart has always longed for, there's just a bit of mismatch there. And I don't think that I really have a very I don't know, compassionate view for all the people. When I take a bird's eye view of us looking down at Dallas in 1978 or whatever, it's like these were people with very different needs and they were doing muddling through and there was lots of pressure from the outside. So I don't have bad feelings about any choices anybody made. I'm just happy I figured out what I needed and found places to get it. Cause to get it, I started in recovery at age 19. That's really young. I feel really, really lucky that I found places to begin to get my needs met as a teenager. That's that I feel more lucky than anything 

Kate: Can for those of us or those folks listening who are curious about what Al-Anon is or even what it means and who it's for and what is it for. Can you just offer the very bare bones entry level log line of Al-Anon and then maybe also just share the role that it's played in your own life, which is a huge part of this book. 

Christie: Sure. I have to say, this is my favorite question I've ever gotten asked ever. So thank you. So everyone's familiar with AA, it's all over popular culture. There's whole storylines about that. And it's for someone with out of control drinking who wants to get sober and can't on their own. And one choice is to go to AA and you get coins and you have sponsors and it's really well known. And for years I've had this bee in my bonnet, nobody knows about Al-Anon. Al-Anon is the counterpart to AA because alcoholism is a system that has people in them. And usually there's at least one drinker, but then everybody else is propping up the drinker. And the people who grow up with alcoholic parents or marry alcoholics or have children who are alcoholics, those people get to go to AA and see themselves all over culture. And where are the families who are struggling and watching someone slide down? Where are they supposed to go? And Al-Anon is a program for people who love someone who's addicted to a substance. Usually it's alcohol. I know lots of people who go for drug addiction, et cetera, but that's the place to go. If you've been rung inside out and you have developed in the system of alcoholism, a way of behaving that don't work for you, that's a place to go to deal with your own addiction. Because it turns out that many people, I mean maybe they may not use the word addiction, but they're pretty locked in to an alcoholic cycle that's inevitable when you have alcoholism around you. And for every alcoholic, there are four to five people who suffer because of that person's alcoholism. And they're not the drinker that's the alcoholic. So by those standards, Al-Anon should be giant, way bigger than AA. So I sort of feel like there's a lot of people suffering. And my dad got sober when I was three, so I don't have a ton of memories and I still needed lots of help. I grew up in an alcoholic system and my adult relationships as I started dating one addict after another, it was very clear that I had been marked in a way that I couldn't get out of these patterns by myself. And that's why I go to Al-Anon still to this day. 

Kate: Okay. Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Alright, we are back. 

Doree: Christie, you brought up your kids and I wanted to ask you about an article you wrote a few years ago where your daughter asked you to stop writing about her online. And you wrote that you weren't going to agree to that you were going to kind of chart this middle path. And as I recall, I think the article kind of went viral and the comments were very intense. And I'm just wondering where do you stand on that now and what is your relationship with your daughter in terms of what you write about and just how are you feeling about what you wrote three years ago versus how you feel now? Do you still stand by everything that you wrote in that piece? 

Christie: Well, I would say of that piece, I really shit the bed and the whole wide world let me know. I was getting hate mail from Libya. I got something from Greenland. It was terrible. And you know what? I did not understand the debate that I had weighted into. I really did not understand part. First of all, the headline was very incendiary. I did not write the headline, but I should have known that it would've probably come out with a headline. My daughter asked me not to write about her. Here's why I can't do that. That's galling on its face to many, many people. And I totally understand why. So that was one part of it. The other part is I was making a point very in my mind, a very narrow point about this middle ground. But the debate had already been raging all around me. And I did not realize I had not done sufficient research about privacy, about my kids were just on the cusp of being too old to write about. And I had come of age writing before the internet was a totally toxic stew. And I made great friends. And we were writing about what do we do about separation anxiety? Or my son stuck a pistachio up his nose, how do I get it out? And then there's a blog post about, it was just a gentler time. And by the time I wrote that article that went viral, I had not caught up with the requisite, the sides of the debate. Children deserve privacy. They deserve to grow up without their mothers putting their diaries on the internet. I fully agree with that, but I do still have a question about how can someone who mothers write about her life without just shutting it all down? Because a lot of my experiences, a lot of the strain of the debate that I was reacting to was like, you have to stop full stop. And I still think there must be some way to do it now I'm not going to write about my daughter's menstruation or like any of those things. And she has since found my writing. She knows about this debate and she is a very private person. And so I don't talk about our relationship anymore. But I do talk about my motherhood and that I believe that there's a way to talk about my motherhood and leave her out of it, which sounds crazy, but when it went on a case by case basis, I find that it is possible, my body, my motherhood, my experience of mothering and just leave her out of it. And my son too, he doesn't need to be center stage. And really when I wrote that piece, I was also saying, I really want to hear from them other mothers, please don't go away and shut up now that your kids hit middle school. Please stay. Please stay. It was like a fear of abandonment. Cause I was watching people drop off one by one and I knew writers who were still able to, there were neutral topics, there were places where they could talk about their experience of mothering. And I wanted us all to stay in the space of writing about ourselves, even if it got, it was hard to make those calls sometimes. So like that was a very scarring experience and I'd always wanted to go viral. And then it was so overwhelming. And I do understand where people were coming from and I'm glad I had the wake up call because it helped me get really clear very quickly what kind of boundaries my family needed and just how to take care of all the different people, my children, my family, and also myself. And then the rest of the world can think whatever they want about it. But there's a real hysteria around children, which I'm just curious about it. 

Doree: Yeah, I mean I think this is something that Kate and I think about as well. I mean Kates kids are in, well one of them is in middle school and then one of them is soon to be in middle school. And you don't really write about your kids or talk about them on the podcast. Yeah, I mean you're right in the sense of a lot of these conversations are happening privately in private Facebook groups and private message boards and private conversations, which is great for the people who are in them. But what about the people aren't, where are they getting the support that they might need? And I don't really know what the answer is besides when your kid tells you they don't want to be written about, then I think you do have to honor that. And somehow, like you said, you have to figure out how to thread that needle of writing about motherhood without writing about your specific kid, which is tough. 

Christie: And one of the things that helped me too is I am less nervous. And I think in general people are less nervous around books. So I was able to, there's something about the internet and the culture there that's so snarky or easy to misread and just too quick. And so I was able to scratch that itch and to feel the fellowship of motherhood that I was so craving, I was able to find that in books and less on the internet. 

Doree: That makes sense. 

Kate: Yeah. Does make sense. I wanted to ask on the other spectrum of relationships friendships with folks who are not in your generation, which is at the core of BFF is your friendship with Meredith who is older. And I have this fantasy about having an older female friend, but I also am finding, I am really struggling to connect to people I meet who are generation Z. I feel like we are just, I don't understand, I don't get your slang. I feel very dated and just kind of awkward around you. So I think these relationships are so important, but I also don't really know how to make them or sustain them. I don't even know how to find common ground. So I would love your advice there on how you feel about, nurturing intergenerational friendships, but also even just establishing them. 

Christie: I totally hear you on that. When I think back to when I would first start to see Meredith, and I never thought of her as a friend, and it was because she was too old. She was too old to be, I just thought of it was, I was in a grade school mentality. I'm in fourth grade, she's a senior in high school, we can't be friends. And of course that doesn't translate in adulthood. And she was persistent. And I think about how, I mean one great thing about being in 12 step recovery is that it brings you in contact. It has brought me in contact with all sorts of ages and all different socioeconomic, I mean, there's such a thing in some 12 step groups, they have young people's meetings. And I used to go to those when I was young. And then I was like, now I think I've aged out of them. Plus I'm like, why are we segregating by age? The greatest gift this gives me is hearing what it's like to be dealing with someone else's addiction. At 68, I'm 50 hearing a 20 year old whatever. And I think about when Meredith and I got close and there was a group of us at the same meeting, and we were all young. We were in our mid thirties having babies, and she was already in her fifties and past that point in her life and the vulnerability that she felt being at the very base level, she was different than we were. She was doing different things. She was shopping for different things and her life looked really different. And I think about how she modeled for me, she felt really vulnerable and we're all out there. I can remember we're out there on the sidewalk talking about Adele or whatever, and she's listening to Cher in her car. There's a total mismatch. And that mismatch can either be used for distance or it can be, again, an invitation. I want to know what's it like to drive around listening to Cher. Cause that's not what I do. So I think that there's a vulnerability and I have a similar experience. The generations below me or whatever, I don't know what they're talking about. Their values feel really different to me. I don't understand. You don't want, what do you mean you don't want your mother's China? I don't understand. I'm a stuff person. I'm very Gen Z. No, I'm Gen X. I'm very Gen X. And some of the ways that they approach work or ambition, I'm just like, and so I have moments when I'm just like, we're different. I'm going to go hang out with those people, people my own age. But then I have moments of that grace, which maybe is what Meredith felt, where it's like, this is a chance to make my world bigger by understanding and just accepting some of it. I'm never going to understand. I'm never going to understand. You don't want to drive. I couldn't wait to drive. I love to drive. I don't understand wanting to Uber everywhere. I'm scared of Ubers. I'm afraid I'm going to get murdered. So we may never see eye to eye on that, but my life could be enriched and greater textured if I could make those connections. But I don't know how to do it outside of the context of, I have home meetings and I see the young people there and I hang out with them when I can. I don't know how you do it. I dunno how you do it. Otherwise, I suppose at my old job before I quit working, there were lots of young folk around and they had so much more energy and they could go out so much more than I could. But I like to hear their stories. At the end of the day, tell me a good story. I don't care how old you are. 

Kate: And honestly, how else are we going to better understand each other without connecting intergenerationally. But I find it, I'm finding the older I get, I can really feel that barrier come up that I never realized was there when I was younger. And that has been really just interesting to experience and a little, it makes me a little sad honestly. So I, I'm trying to navigate it. I think I appreciate that so much the way your perspective on it. Can we talk about advice that you might have for folks who are in a friendship with someone who is ill or dying? This is I've, I have been in this position once and it's wild. It's wild. It's not something we're ever really trained on. And I think it's even, it's different than when it's a family member or there's just a different experience when it's a chosen person. And I'm wondering, having been through it yourself, do you have advice that you share with people? 

Christie: I think the biggest piece of advice that I learned in my experience with Meredith is to listen. To ask what is wanted and needed and then to listen. I think for early on when Meredith was sick, I was asking, I know the right questions because I'm socialized and I know to ask her what she wants and what do you need. But I wasn't listening to what she said because I wanted a certain answer. I wanted to be be the star of her illness show, kind of like I wanted to be the reason my dad drank and I had to really check my ego and let her have what she needed and wanted. That part was really hard because that meant I had to honor that and be quiet and then be still with my own feelings. And I did not want to do that because it was scary and sad. And it'd be more fun to take her some sushi than to feel sad and scared and at a loss. That feeling of being at a loss is a terrible feeling. And maybe that's what our friends need from us to hold them. That's probably a tiny fraction of what an ill person is feeling. And maybe part of being witness to that and being a friend is hold our share and not make her hold it for me. 

Kate: Yeah, I love that, that that's a really grueling experience to go through. And I do think that thing that you mentioned, that wanting to be the star of someone's illness show happens a lot and is very challenging to navigate on all sides. 

Christie: Yeah, I can, I mean, I like that. I noticed myself now, I just got a meal train for another friend who's sick. She's going to be okay, but she's in an acute period and there's the meal train and I was like, who's already signed up? Who did it? I don't like this part of my character a hundred percent, but everything's a competition until I can just sort of breathe and be like, okay, we're all taken care of the friends. And it's not a race to see who can bring the falafel first. But that's, that gets generated in me when a friend is sick, a friend that's like, there becomes a scarcity and a peril and danger. And it doesn't bring out the best in me. I, I'll just say it. It just doesn't. So I have to move slowly and be sure, I'm not foisting my character defects on someone who's sick. That's the last thing that they need. 

Doree: Thats so real. 

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. But it happens all the time. All the time. 

Doree: Well, Christie, it's been really great to get to talk to you. Can you let our listeners know where they can find you and follow along with your work and get your books, all that good stuff? 

Christie: Sure. I predominantly hang out on Instagram and it's just @ChristieTate.com. And also I have a website, it's ChristieTate.com as well. I try to put my current, write whatever essays have been published, my tour schedule links to order the books. And otherwise I don't do Twitter cause I'm too scared. But I definitely lo, I love reader engagement and it was really fun. I didn't know how engaged readers were until I published my first book. It's a blast. And I don't even need it to be all fan mail, just any honest engagement. I'm game for it. And I love to talk about books, so I'm pretty chatty. I'm also probably avoiding my work, so I'm always up for conversations about books and reading. 

Doree: Relatable 

Kate: Exactly. 

Doree: Well, thank you so much. And Christie's new book is out on February 7th, so do pick it up. 

Kate: That's great. Yeah. 

Christie: Thank you so much for having me, you guys. These guys are super fun. I love this. 

Kate: I need to find myself a 65, 70 year old friend. I'm just saying if anyone wants to be my friend, 

Doree: And I mean, we have listeners in their seventies, we've heard from them. 

Kate: Oh, I know. And there's one special one who sends me very sweet like DM memes sometimes. 

Doree: Oh so cool 

Kate: Yeah, I know. Can you move to LA and go get coffee. I wish there was a matchmaking app where it was young people in their thirties and forties having midlife crises about friendship. You seeking wisdom filled septuagenarian. I can't say that word, but the word I'm trying to say. 

Doree: Totally. There is an app called Peanut that was meant to introduce mom friends, but maybe there needs to be a cross-generational 

Kate: Yea, I'm looking for a grandma. 

Doree: Yea. There needs to be a cross-generational app. 

Kate: Well, 43 year old woman seeking friend ages 60 and up. 

Doree: Oh my gosh. 

Kate: No, I really enjoyed our conversation with Christie, especially. I was really glad we got to touch on Al-Anon. I feel like that has not come up yet on the podcast and was such a vital self-care tool for so many people. 

Doree: Totally, totally, totally, totally. 

Kate: Well, Doree, how is it going, keeping the one corner of your kitchen counter clean? 

Doree: It's been going pretty well. It's stayed reasonably clean. There's a couple of stray papers that have shown up and I've been like, what are these? But it's definitely an improvement. Yeah. So I'm going to try to tackle different doom pile areas throughout the house in the coming days and weeks. 

Kate: What is your intention this week? 

Doree: Okay, despite my kind of criticism of the Full Focus planner at the top of the show, I do want to go into this with a somewhat open mind. As open as my mind can be. Okay. As a judgemental person and give this planner a shot. 

Kate: Okay. 

Doree: So that is my intention for this week. I'm going to really commit to this planner and see, just see what happens. 

Kate: It's just a week. 

Doree: It's just a week. Kate, what about you? Did you do a very short, loving, kindness meditation? 

Kate: No. Oh, I didn't. Okay. But maybe my vision board was kind of part of that in a way, because I do feel like, 

Doree: Oh, Okay. 

Kate: I do feel like it is a way of, I don't know, being kind to myself, but no, I didn't. I still would like to, but I just have, I'll be honest, I have not gotten around to it, but one thing I have been doing, which is my intention for this week, is I've been reading a lot and I have a lot of books that I'm trying to blurb, which if that is an unfamiliar term to you, it means as an author, we are often asked to read other authors books before they come out and write a very quick quip or review that can go on a cover word, pray, words of praise. And I really love doing it and it means a lot to get asked to do it. So I've been reading a bunch of books that I am blurbing, and one thing I've been doing is after dinner, after everybody cleans up and homework's done, I've been making hot chocolate and tea, me and my two daughters. 

Doree: Oh. 

Kate: And reading together, having an hour of reading time, which has been really fun because sometimes we'll talk about our books or every, it's just kind of cozy, but everybody's doing their own thing and it's been really nice. So I'm going to try to keep doing that at least a couple times this week. It's also hilarious because last night my one kid is reading, my kids are reading books about this Dragon Fantasy book, and I'm reading about two actors having hot sex in a hotel, but they don't know what I'm reading, So I'm fine. 

Doree: That's really funny. Well, Kate, this has been fun. Let's just remind everyone that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and you, Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Talk to you all again soon. 

Kate: Bye 

Doree: Bye. 

 
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