Episode 247: Reclaim Your Body with Evette Dionne
CW: This episode contains discussions about disordered eating, fat phobia, and weight loss.
Kate weeps while reading a Horse Girl poem and Doree remembers how much goes into preparing for a half-marathon. Then, journalist, pop culture critic, and magazine editor Evette Dionne joins them to talk about her new book Weightless: Making Space For My Resilient Body and Soul, the unbelievable things people have said to her when she lost weight from illness, and why representation of fat people in pop culture isn’t enough.
Photo Credit: Brien Howell
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We're not, but we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: Look, if you've been here before, you know the drill. But if you are new here, friendly reminder that you can visit our website forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. You can find us on Instagram @Forever35podcast or join the Forever35 Facebook group where the password is serums. We also curate some of our favorite products over at shopmy.us/forever35.
Doree: And we have a newsletter Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com. And my dear friend Kate Horse Spencer
Kate: Yes,
Doree: Is sick.
Kate: I have a cold. I mean, yeah, as disgusted, I voluntarily put myself on a floating Petri dish for a week with my family in order to, I mean, it was a thing that we were aware of when my family decided as a unit to go on a cruise together which again, was a celebration of my father-in-law's 80th birthday three years after the fact. So I knew what I was getting into and I tried to keep myself as healthy and protected as possible, but I still got a cold. So here I am with a C. I mean, it seems like I went to CVS last night to just pick up some extra NyQuil and the shelves were wiped out. I mean wiped. And I've had one kid who just had the flu. I have many friends who've been dealing with flu, cold RSV, COVID obviously. I mean, it's just a really gnarly health season right now. So yeah, we see you if you're going through it, it's really scary. It's not fun even.
It's not fun. It's scary. I don't like it. And I am, I'm on DayQuil. But then I also bought myself a very cheap juicer and I was like, I could get into drinking juice, making my own juice. But it took a lot of work to make. yeah, I made this ginger lemon carrot apple juice, which is quite tasty. And I pumped it up with ginger for my sinuses or whatev. I mean, I don't know, I'm making that up. Does it help my sinuses? I don't know, Doree. But the juice is good. The juice is good. The juice is loose.
Yeah, it's interesting though, just mentioning when I was on that boat, I walked on, there's a track that circled this cruise ship on the outside. So you go around the track two and a half times and that's like a mile. So I would go and walk in the mornings. It felt really nice and get some fresh air. But there was this signage on this walking path and also content warning. I'm going to be talking a little bit about diet culture and eating and stuff right now, but there was this signage and it would be just a couple more. I actually took a photo of it because I found it so fucking fucked up. But it was basically just a few more steps. And tonight's dessert will be guilt free. There were signs just hanging. Yes, intended to "cheer you on". It would be Come on, you've got it. And then there was this one that was, so just trigger town, U S A. I meant I should have pulled this up before we started recording. My apologies. I am a little distracted with the stupid head cold, but I took a photo of it because I was like, every morning here it is one lap to go, or maybe three tonight's dessert can be guilt free.
Doree: No,
Kate: I'm going to send you the photo. So kind of how it worked. But it was little signs above our heads. And I feel like I've done enough work in this area on myself that I can gray rock a lot of diet culture messaging. I'm able to protect myself.
Doree: Can you explain the term? Can you explain the term gray rock for people who may not be familiar with it?
Kate: Yes. So the way I understand gray rocking is it's a practice to protect yourself or deflect from a narcissist or toxic person's energy. So if they're putting a lot of shit upon you, it's essentially kind of disengaging, putting up a protective wall, not reacting, not feeding back into it. So I think I am, I've gotten with, I've done a lot of work on over last few years, and I think I really have a lot of tools in place that allow me to do this. But I still was just like, Jesus, it was just a reminder of the pervasiveness, the way in which diet culture is so in insidious. And I mean we, I'm mentioning this too because we talk about it with today's guest, Evette Dionne, who we'll get to later. And it's just something that's been on my mind. And this all coincided Doree was something I texted you about, which was that I found a blog I started 18 years ago about trying to lose weight that I didn't know exactly how
Doree: Did you find this and how are you looking for it?
Kate: I wasn't looking for it. I was not looking for it. I received one of those emails that's happy 18th year anniversary from this blogging platform. And I was like, what?
Doree: Oh my Gosh.
Kate: So I wasn't looking for it and I was like, oh, this will be funny to go read. I thought it was a blog I had started that I knew about my main blog that I was writing 20 years ago. So I went over and I was like, this isn't me. The name of the blog was about getting skinny. I don't wanna share it because I honestly don't. Yeah. So it was so wild. I read it and I was like, is I couldn't have written this. But then it was very clearly it was me. They hadn't made a mistake. It was me.
Doree: And you have no real recollection of this.
Kate: No. I have recollections of wanting to lose weight and feeling bad about my body and diet of trying the South Beach diet. I mean, all the shit that I, yes, that all I remember, but I have no recollection of starting a weight loss blog, which I didn't keep for more than a few months. But that was wild. It was shocking. And it was fat phobic and shaming. And I tried to read it with a lot of empathy for my 25 year old self. Because it was dark. It was dark. So this all kind of coincided like, I don't know, it's it's been on my mind. It never goes away. It follows you. It's in you, it's so systemic. It's the stuff is just, and then I'll have a moment where I'm like, oh shit, look what I'm doing right this very second. I'm doing all the things I thought I was not going to do anymore. So I don't know if anyone can connect to this, but it just wow, I don't know. It's just been on my brain and what people, a bunch of lists I, I'm assuming podcast listeners, but other folks sent me this beautiful poem by this woman Joy Sullivan on Instagram called Horse Girl and will link to it. And this poem it, have you seen this poem?
Doree: I don't think so.
Kate: It made me weep. It really got to me. I'm also texting this to you, so I'll share it, but it's the first line of the poem and then you all can go click and read it. It says it's called Horse Girls says, recently I discovered that for approximately the same amount, I pay a fitness coach to tell me how many calories to eat monthly. I could lease a horse at a nearby farm and ride whenever I like. And it just goes on to talk about what it means to be free and be a horse girl. And just this trap so many of us find ourselves in with this. So anyway, and this is a conversation you and I have been having off the air too, just about the kind of constant relentless weight loss messaging that still exists out there. And it's just a shitload,
Doree: It's a shitload. And it is sort of crazy to think about how we weren't aware of it for so long because it was just "normal" for all this stuff to be everywhere. I would bet you a lot of money that if you had gone on this cruise, say 15 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago, and you saw those signs on the track, you wouldn't have thought twice about them. They would not have even pinged for you.
Kate: Well, and I think what bothers me so much is that my kids could walk, are going to walk under, my kids are already picking up on all this messaging. It's not gone. And my daughter, 12 year old is like, why can't I be on? Don't I have a phone? I wanna be on Instagram. And I'm like, bitch, this is why, because I'm so fucked up. Like I'm trying to keep it away from you as long as possible, but it's already in them.
Doree: But you also can give them the tools to interrogate diet culture in a way that our parents were not equipped to.
Kate: I think that's true. I think that's really true. I God. But then I just wonder, and I think this has been addressed very out, people have addressed this kind of the way in which wellness culture is essentially just diet culture. How is it being packaged now so that we don't see it? Well, And again, people are in interrogated anymore. Yes.
Doree: Spoiler for Evette Dionne's book, and we didn't actually talk about this in her interview, but she points out that even Lizzo did a whole cleanse at one point and posted about it on her social media. And she claimed she wasn't doing it to lose weight, but she was still kind of subscribing to all of that wellness, diet culture stuff. And so Evette wasn't ta, she didn't write about it to shame Lizzo. She was writing about it more to be like, look, this shit is everywhere and no one is immune to it. Even fucking Lizzo.
Kate: Yeah, I, but again, Doree, Like, I just bought this stupid juicer. Was there a weight, was there some sort of fucking diet culture demon in my head when I bought it? I don't know. I don't think there was, but I really truly, I just wanted to be able to make a juice. But in the past I've had a juicer because I wanted to do juice cleanses because I thought that they would make me healthier, which was just me, a code word for me saying I want to lose weight. This is some of the interrogation I have done.
Doree: Yeah
Kate: Excuse me. So anyway, that's just what's been going on with me and my brain over here is being loving toward myself, knowing that I can't, I'm not immune from it. And knowing that I might participate and I might do or say things that I don't, I'm not proud of, not proud, I don't even know what the word is that it's just in us. But to also be like, yeah, constantly interrogating oneself I think is helpful. So anyway, that's up with me over here. I didn't mean to go off so much, but it's like that the signage as I was walking was really just like, oh boy,
Doree: That's a lot.
Kate: Yeah, that's a lot. Shifting gaga gears to you.
Doree: So. Yes.
Kate: Because you have, in our quest for understanding ourselves and what we need and what we want and figuring out how best to care and nurture our ourselves and our inner children. You did something that you thought you wanted that then you decided maybe you didn't.
Doree: Yeah. So as discussed on a previous episode, I entered the lottery for the New York City half marathon. And I said to Kate, I think I have a pretty good chance of getting in because they do the lottery in three buckets. One of them is New York, people who live in the New York Metro area. One is people who live in the US and then one is international. So I don't know how many people are in each bucket, but it seemed pretty clear to me that they want a geographically diverse group of people probably to encourage tourism dollars. If you're coming in to run this half marathon from California, you're flying in, you're maybe getting a hotel, you're spending money in the same way that someone coming in from Park Slope is not. Anyway.
Kate: Okay, so Doree had a plan.
Doree: I was like, I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get in. And then as the weeks went by and I was like, am I really going to do this half marathon? It's a ton of training. I have to go to New York like,
Kate: Right, which is, there's like money,
Doree: Which is money and time away and time away. And then I found out that Henry's preschool is doing this thing that weekend. I was sort of 50/50 on going on anyway, but it was just sort of seemed like another sign that, you know what, this is maybe not the time. And so I said to Kate, I'm going to drop out of the drawing. And in my head I had until November 30th to drop out. But in fact the drawing was on November 30th and you had until basically the day before November, you had until November 29th to drop out. So I log on to my dashboard on November 30th and it's pending drawing and you couldn't change anything. And I was like, oh shit. And so I tried to change my credit card so maybe it wouldn't get charged cuz there had been an issue with I whatever. And I got in, spoiler, I got in, I was like, congratulations, you're running the New York City marathon. And I was like,
Kate: You were right. You were right
Doree: Oh Fart. And I said to Kate, maybe there is a part of me that didn't really wanna drop out because I could have dropped out at any time prior to November 30th. Why did I wait until the very last second? You know what I mean? Did I subconsciously sabotage my dropping out of this half marathon. So now I'm in, and of course I don't have to run. But now I feel obligated because now I'm like, well I took a spot away from someone else.
Kate: And you can't pass it onto somebody.
Doree: You can't pass it. I mean I guess someone could run in my place, but I think to pick up, I have to pick up a bib and show Id don't, not as straightforward and you're not allowed to. I could get banned from future Races. God.
Kate: And we're talking about it on this podcast.
Doree: And I'm talking about it on a podcast. Yeah, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to give my bib to someone else. So my options are either not do it or do it and not doing it mean just abandoning it. So I was like, well I guess, I don't know, I guess I can train for it, but I was also, does this mean this means maybe giving up some tennis? This means shifting some workouts? I don't know. I looked up some half marathon training plans and I have not really been running. So week one of this 12 week training plan and the marathon, the half marathon is March 19th. So from today I have about 14 weeks and this 12 week training plan, you're supposed to be able to run four miles that first week. And I was like, I don't think I can run four miles. So I looked up a 10 K training plan and I tacked on two, actually three additional weeks to the 12 week half marathon training plan to kind of ease myself into it. So yesterday I did a two mile run and I was like, oh god, Like a two mile run was hard. Oh my.
Kate: Oh Doree.
Doree: I was just like, oh, I am so fucked. I am so fucked. What have I done? So I don't know Kate, I don't know if I can pull this off.
Kate: Can I ask a question?
Doree: But that's where I'm at right now. Yes.
Kate: What's the training program that you're doing?
Doree: Hal Higdon.
Kate: Have you looked at Jeff Galloway?
Doree: I have not. So I used to use Hal Higdon when I used to run half marathons and train for a marathon.
Kate: So you feel safe,
Doree: honestly, I looked at, yeah, it felt safe. Also, I looked at a couple others like running world. They're all kind of the same. The calendars are all kind of the same. There's not huge differences in, I'm doing the novice training plan.
Kate: Good work.
Doree: If you're like a half marathon expert, there's a different training plan for you. But, if you're just like me, spontaneously deciding to run a half marathon after 10 years, I mean I think the last half marathon I ran, I think it was probably 2013. So.
Kate: Well I did just wanna say, Jeff Galloway is known for his run walk program, which is what I've been, which I signed up for a 5k. I'm either going to just walk it completely or run walk it. And that might be a more manageable on your body or whatever might feel a little bit better. And he often has people who they end up PR they again and they end up moving faster with the walk breaks than just running. I'm not telling you you do what you need to do for your body and your training. But I do, he has an app and I do like Jeff Galloway. I will just say.
Doree: I mean I will look into it. Thank you for the rec. I'm just like, what have I done here?
Kate: Well I mean maybe there is something like to be received from it. Maybe there is an experience that you don't know that you need. There is something to be said for sticking with it and just doing it and going into it with no expectations. And your only goal really is to finish however you do it. And even that you don't even have to. So
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Or you don't do it and you just say, well I fucked up. I don't wanna do it. I'm sorry. Bye.
Doree: Oh, okay.
Kate: The other thing here I will recommend is a book that I used for my half marathon trading is marathoning for mortals. And they have run walk and walk run programs also. And this, I'm telling you this, but I'm also just telling anybody this who's interested. I personally like a run and walk combination. It just feels better for me and I easier on my body. So those are two that I like
Doree: Okay, okay. All right, well. I'll keep everyone posted.
Kate: Doree is running a half marathon maybe.
Doree: Oh boy. Okay.
Kate: Well look should we take a little break and then share our conversation with Evette?
Doree: We should, but we should introduce her first.
Kate: Okay. Pardon me. I'll do that. Evette Dionne is our guest today. We had a fantastic conversation with her. She's a journalist, pop culture critic and magazine editor who covers culture and politics through the lenses of race, gender, class, and size. Currently she is the executive editor at Yes Media, where she leads Yes magazine. She's the former editor-in-chief at Bitch Media. She's also the author of Lifting As We Climb, which was long listed for a national book award and won a Coretta Scott King author Honor and her newest book, which is out December 6th. So I think right this very second is called Weightless Making Space for My Resilient Body and Soul. And it's so good. It's great. All the stuff that you just started talking about you are going to, Evette just goes into it and so much more. I mean so much more.
Doree: Yeah. So we are going to take a short break and we'll be right back. Evette, welcome to Forever35. We're so excited to have you on the show.
Evette: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.
Doree: So we like to start off by asking our guests if they have a self-care practice that they do regularly that if you'd like to share.
Evette: I would love to. I'm big on self-care. I would say my biggest tip, I'm a reader. I love to read books, I love physical books. I have to go to the library and get a physical book. And so I set an amount of time in my day just to read because it's something that I care about, something that rejuvenates me, it energizes me. So I set aside 30 minutes no matter what, just to sit somewhere and read. Highly recommend.
Doree: Is that something that you put in your calendar or you just kind of are like, oh, I need to do this today? Just kind of wondering about the logistics of it.
Evette: I make it a part of my evening routine. So I'm a big fan of evening routine. I have to wind down my brain and prepare myself to go to bed, otherwise my brain is just running and running and running. And so I made it a part of my evening routine of I have to take a bath and then after I get out of the bath, I get in the bed and I read. So it creates a routine for me. So when I go to sleep, I'm actually asleep and my brain is not three days from now.
Kate: Ok.
Doree: We are, we're very invested in bedtime routines here. So
Kate: So many. I could talk about an hour about your routines. Go ahead.
Doree: No, I was just going to ask do you do it at the same time every night?
Evette: I do. I have to. Okay. If I don't do it at the same time, it doesn't happen.
Kate: Okay. Now here's my question. Do you also have a morning routine? Do you have a similar thing established on the wake up side and what is it?
Evette: I do. I do. And the reason why is because if I don't have a morning routine, I run right into work and then I'm like, why am I so tired? I'm exhausted, why am I so tired? So I've set a morning routine. My dog really helps me with that because of course he needs to go outside. But once he comes back in I do a whole face routine and drink a cup of tea and get myself ready for the day so I'm not jumping out of bed and right into the world.
Kate: Is this a lifelong practice for you or did you reach a point where you were like, I need to establish these routines for myself and what was the kind of practice there? Because I asked this selfishly because this is something that I, an intention I kind of set for myself last week, but it's the implementing the practice that I find really hard. So I would love to know what your experience has been getting this to work for you.
Evette: I was so burned out. I'm navigating very, what my therapist calls very acute burnout. So we crafted a morning and the evening routine to allow me time to one lead up to a day, but also give myself time to rejuvenate and recharge. Cuz if I don't build in the time, I won't do it. If I don't intentionally carve out that time and say, okay, from 6:30 to 9:30 this is what my morning looks like from 7 to 10, this is what my evening looks like it won't happen. And so my therapist and I sat down and crafted it and we check in about it routinely to make sure that it's happening.
Doree: Your therapist sounds great. How long have you been in therapy? Is this something that has been a part of your life for a long time?
Evette: On and off, on and off since my teenage years for sure. I've been consistently in therapy as an adult the last five years or so.
Doree: We get a lot of questions from listeners about how to find a good therapist and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that. Was your current therapist the first one who you met? Did you kind of test out some people? How did you vibe with them? What were your criteria for selecting a therapist?
Evette: I needed a therapist who I trusted and who I vibed with. That was top for me. I wanted to have a black woman therapist cuz I'm a black woman. I felt like we could have some cultural connection there. Things I didn't have to explain to her. But every black woman doesn't get along. And so I got referred to a service. So I went through my insurance, I got referred to through a service called Sonder Mind. And then I could pick a therapist within that network so I didn't have to get re-certified every time. And so I kind of bounced around. I went around, I would say I tested out maybe five therapists. And I think what tends to happen is if you get a therapist, you feel obligated to stay with that therapist. Like, oh, I've met with them twice, I kind of like them.
But what was important for me is to come out of therapy feeling like it was useful and that it wasn't a waste of time. And that we focus on the things that I care about, cared about and that I wasn't being led into a place where I was either uncomfortable or didn't feel prepared for or didn't feel guided through. And so I would come out and reflect, do I actually, and then do I like this person? Do I actually like this person? So I tested out maybe I would say five therapists before I landed on my current therapist. And some I stayed with in the beginning I had one therapist I was with for a year and then it just wasn't working out for me after that. And then I tested another four and then found my current therapist.
Doree: I love that. And I know when people, when you try to go into therapy because you're in crisis, I think it can be really hard if, you know, find a therapist and they're not the right match and people kind of give up. And so I really like your approach to it. And I also think it's a good reminder that it's good to seek out therapy maybe, and actually I don't wanna assume why you sought sought out therapy, but to seek out therapy when you're not necessarily in crisis, I think is great. And something that I have not been always successful at doing. But I think it does offer a lot in terms of allowing you to take your time and find the right person. So yeah, I appreciate that Evette, we, let's switch gears and talk about your amazing book which both of us just loved and just raised so many really important issues and questions and presented things in ways that I hadn't ever thought about. And you know, said something in your introduction that struck me as really profound. You said, I hope my personal stories might light a pathway for other fat people to reclaim their bodies. And I was hoping that you could talk a little bit just about the process of writing this book and what kind of writing this book in general meant for you.
Evette: Oh wow. Thank you so much for the kind words about the book. I started writing this book about five years ago or so originally it was a different book and in the process of writing that book, I was diagnosed with heart failure. And so it became a completely different book. And I was mostly trying to journal through that experience of being diagnosed so early and figuring out mortality and thinking about what can my life look like right now? What can it look like in the future depending on what happens on the journey. And I was journaling through that experience because I often say all the time I feel like an avatar, I feel like I'm floating above my life. Watching it happen to someone else for a long time didn't feel connected to or in my body really it was, I was kind of just watching this happening and thinking, oh is that happening to me?
I was talking about someone else and not myself. And then I realized when I got diagnosed, I couldn't do that. I had to be very present in my body. I needed to feel every ache and pain to figure out if medication was working or not and really, really be present. And so after a while I was like, well, I can't hold onto this experience for myself. I think the statistic is one in two black people by under the age of 50 will develop some sort of heart condition at varying degrees. Mine is more intense, but from a murmur to cardiomyopathy, the runs the gamut really. And I was like, well this could help someone and if you can help someone, then there's a story there and it's a story I need to tell. And I knew that I didn't really wanna write about myself. I had come through, kind of the personal essay complex of doing that through my early twenties, build a career career. And I didn't really wanna do it. But I also knew that using a personal narrative to bring people in, it really is powerful. It allows you to connect with people on a human level so it doesn't feel like, oh, this can't happen to me, but oh this is happening to so many people. It can. And if it does, here's what I can do. And that's when I knew it could be a book.
Kate: I mean, you do that really effectively. I, I mean you balance this, the kind of information side with the personal narrative so beautifully. And I think that's why I know personally, I feel like I got so much out of reading. And you talk so much about the medical establishment and the way in which the fat phobia to this very day to an article I read in the New York Times mere days ago is just so rampant and touches every aspect from merely going in for, as you mentioned, the kind of common joke of, or common refrain of going in to get your sore throat checked. And a doctor will ask have you take a blood test for diabetes if you're a fat person. I mean, just, it's insidious in all aspects of culture, but specifically in the medical space. And still so much. We've talked about navigating the medical world in this way with the fat phobia. But I'm wondering what you've taken away after writing about it. So personally and going through your own lifelong health experiences, where do you, I don't know, where do you think the change is going to happen and how?
Evette: Oh, I am unsure about the how. Or if this has served doctors for a long time. Yeah, it is. It's served the medical establishment for a long time. A dieting is a billion dollar business. Is that something people, people and systems wanna divorce themselves from? And that part I'm unsure, but I think where it could happen in an ideal world is in the residency spaces and in the school space where doctors are being trained.
Kate: Oh, interesting.
Evette: Yeah, because so much of what they're carrying around is this fat bias. But a lot of it is subconscious and a lot of it is because that was the way that they were trained of, they're trained into BMI. They're trained to treat obesity as an illness. They're trained to think about obesity as the cause of all of these other illnesses that happen afterward. If you're trained that way, of course you're going to treat patients that way. So ideally in an ideal world, that is the place where it would happen. So by the time doctors are out and practicing, especially family doctors are out and practicing, they're not carrying that bias with them. I think it's going to take some overt unlearning and overt training about fat bias for that to happen. And then on top of that racial bias and gender bias and all of the things that are plaguing doctors, that they don't take women seriously when they're in pain or they think that black people can take pain at a higher degree than other ethnicities and races. All that needs to happen at that level. So by the time they're interacting with patients one-on-one, not caring that bias, or if they are, they're able to recognize it and check it.
Kate: I'm sorry, I'm looking down cuz I have your book on a iPad here. I just wanna make sure that I'm not just tuning out, but I'm trying to find the chapter that you wrote about covid because I don't think this conversation is so necessary and I haven't seen it happening a lot. And so glad you write about the way in which BMI and fat phobia played out through all aspects of this pandemic, whether it's who gets on a ventilator or deserves a ventilator to getting access to the vaccine. I mean it was, it's wild and it's so pervasive and it hasn't really even been a part of the discussion. And on, obviously we're still in covid but what kind of first, was there a moment where you first zoned in on this happening as the pandemic kicked in and began? Do you think it's a conversation that is going to be happening more? I mean, I just had my own experience with the vaccine rollout because of my BMI I qualified to get it early and there were just so many crazy shitty things that were fat phobic in how we've dealt with covid and that are fat phobic and that we haven't really talked about yet.
Evette: Yeah, I think it was such a chaotic time. Covid is still happening, but I remember early 2020, even early 2021, it was chaos.
Kate: Yes,
Evette: It was so chaotic. And I remember watching those press conferences every day, every day sitting down. Cause I was so concerned. My family was really concerned because my conditions impact the heart and the lungs. And thankfully up until this point, I have not had covid. I don't know how this is happening, but even right now, I have not had covid and everyone in my family was so concerned. So we would sit down and the world had pretty much slowed down at that point. A lot of things were closed, people were trying to figure out what was going to happen. So I was spending a lot of time with family in a way I hadn't in a very long time. And watching those news conferences and hearing Dr. Fauci, who I adore lumping in obesity with cancer and saying that obesity could be the cause of developing severe covid.
And hearing that and having to rewind it and then looking around, am I the only person who's hearing this and thinking this is odd. And realizing that I was, because I wasn't like, I'm sitting around people who aren't as well versed in fat phobia and fat liberation as I am. So I'm looking around at them, they're looking at me. What's the big deal? And I think that has continued honestly of if being fat can cause you to get severe covid, then why be fat? without considering all of these other factors such as, do you have a preexisting condition? Do you live in a place that allows you to stay home? Or are you an essential worker on the front lines who may not have the correct PPE? All of that leads to whether or not you get severe COVID, but to lump obesity in with, I mean terminal illnesses.
It was one of the wildest things I've ever seen. And I don't think because of the chaos of that and the chaos of it, even now, of the numbers are spiking, that we just don't talk about it. We pretend like it's not happening. There really hasn't been space to have that conversation because there are so many other things to concern ourselves with around the pandemic and the mismanagement of the pandemic. But I definitely think it's something, if we ever get to the other side, that we should think deeply about of the lessons that we can learn from the ways in which fat people were treated both during the pandemic and during the vaccine rollout.
Kate: Yes. So glad you talk about it. I really hope it's a conversation that keeps going because it's almost. It's like you say, with the chaos theres so much going on, it's things register and then you're just like, oh, onto the next thing. But I think as we reflect on the last few years, it needs to be a big part of the conversation.
Evette: I agree.
Doree: Evette, I wanted to ask you about something that you write about that Kate and I have talked about on the podcast a bunch which is the phrase, "you look amazing" and just generally the whole concept of commenting on people's bodies. And you write about it in the context of weight loss and you, you know, lost weight because you were sick and people started complimenting you and you write, it's beyond time to undo our cultural assumption that weight loss is a triumph, which is like, whew, Yes. But I did wanna kind of unpack this whole idea of people feeling like they have the right to comment on other people's bodies because they "look good" and how that is often correlated to weight loss. So could you talk about your own experience and what you have, how you have, and you write about this in the book, but how you have seen this manifested in the media and in popular culture?
Evette: Oh yeah. Those I am forever haunted by those magazine covers that were hot or not bodies. Oh, forever haunted standing in the grocery store aisle at the checkout counter. Like, oh, you are tearing these people, these are people and you're tearing them apart and tearing their bodies apart and having paparazzi photos of them on the beach. They don't even know they're being photographed and picking their bodies apart if they have a piece of cellulite. And the haunting of that, that has stayed with me. I was probably 12. It stayed with me for decades now. And I think a large part of that is because we treat fat people's bodies like they're a public spectacle. That's the way that I felt. And when I was diagnosed, I went on a very, and I'm still on a very strict sodium restriction and liquid restriction. So I could have 2000 milligrams of sodium a day no more.
And now 82 ounces of any liquid water, juice, whatever it is, soda, whatever it is, I can have 82 ounces a day and that's it. And because of that, you have to learn how to craft a diet that fits within those restrictions. It is a form of dieting, bar none. Yeah, it's a lifesaving form of dieting. It's designed to, it's not designed to lose weight, it's designed to keep fluid from pooling in your body. Cuz salt builds fluid and fluid builds fluid. So it's designed to lower the amount of fluid in your body so your heart can, cuz when you have heart failure, your heart can't pump liquid, it can't pump fluid. So it's keeping the amount lowered and flushing it outta your system so your heart can pump normally. But as a consequence of that, that's actually happening. But as a consequence of that, my body dwindled and I got much smaller than I've ever been, honestly.
And the response to that was like, wow, you look incredible. You've lost so much weight. I had someone who I know personally say, well if that's what heart failure does to your body, I need to have heart failure. Literally. And I was sitting there like, what is happening? We, we've known each other for years, but that is the experience that fat people who lose weight experience because the assumption is that you intended to lose weight, you're assimilating into a system, you're intending to lose weight and that is worthy of celebration. But you never know the reason why someone is losing weight. I think a lot about Adele,
Kate: Yes, you write about her
Evette: I've written extensively about Adele. Yeah, I wrote about Adele in the book. I've written extensively about Adele and about the ways in which people treated Adele's smaller body. And I love that she, in her interview with Oprah said I had to start working out cause I was having panic attacks and it helped my nervous system after I was getting divorced with the traumatic thing, a divorce is a death and to go through a divorce when you have a young child and you have no idea what it does to someone's body or how they respond to it. But the response to Adele was like, that's wonderful. If you have anxiety and you got divorce and as a result of that you lost weight, then it was worth it. And to me, I don't think people intend to send that message. I tend to come from the place of people aren't inherently malicious, but if we're all indoctrinated in this same system, this fat phobic system that says that any weight loss is good weight loss, no matter how it's earned, everything is earned. And if you lose weight, you earned it and you deserve to be celebrated for it, then it doesn't allow us to think about the complexity of that and the message that that's sending, not only to the person who's experiencing it, but to the person who's saying it that they're envying your weight loss and wishing they can do it. Even if that means you develop heart failure or you get divorced. It's like, it's the wildest thing to me. It's so wild. I still even now can't really wrap my head around it, haven't written a book about it. I still can't wrap my head around that of why people think that's an acceptable thing to do.
Doree: As I was reading your book, I was thinking, oh, I guess the Ozempic, all the Ozempic stuff happened too late for her book for like Yikes. I mean that to that whole phenomenon just to me speaks to every issue that you write about in your book. I mean the medical establishment, pop culture, the media women, it just went on and on and I was like, oh my god, here we are 2022 and this is where we still are its just, it's depressing and overwhelming and mind blowing. So it might be too depressing for you to write about Ozempic, But I would love to read your take on it. So if you feel called to do so, I would love to read that.
Evette: Oh, I just can't believe people are taking that and the side effects of it. And then you gain all the weight back. It's temporary weight loss. Yes. You suffer to experience it and then you gain all the weight back,
Doree: Not only, and you pay, it's like a thousand dollars a month or something.
Evette: It's like wild.
Doree: It's wild. It blows my mind. But these are the lengths.
Kate: It shouldn't. I mean these are the lengths that, that we go. And I say myself, I include myself in the we of that. I mean, I'm not taking ozempic but it, I find it so hard to know. And I've done a lot of work in therapy and in dealing with my own internalized fat phobia and disordered eating and all that stuff. But I still feel caught in the net of it all. And I actually think you write about this when it comes to dating another fat person. And I thought you write about this so beautifully and with such wonderful self-reflection because it's there in all of us no matter what.
Evette: It exists. It exists. Yeah. I think about this. TLC had a 600 Pound Life marathon on Thanksgiving,
Kate: Oh My God,
Evette: Like, ran a marathon on Thanksgiving and I was in front of the TV reliving some of these moments. I think so often we think of fat people as a monolith, particularly as it relates to body positivity of every fat person is in harmony with their body and they're encouraging other fat people to be in harmony with their body. And there's no real room for complexity around that. And I really wanted to be honest and vulnerable about the ways in which we all internalize fat phobia. I'm not exempt when I say I include myself in the we. I'm not exempt from having these thoughts, from living them out, from showing up in the world, still unlearning like everyone else. And so many other fat people are in that place. Like 600 pound life has been on 10 seasons, 11 seasons. It's not all thin people watching this. To pretend as if that is the case, I think does fat, all fat people at disservice. There's a reason why this show is leading Wednesday nights and why it has multiple spinoffs and now there are different shows in the same vein. There's a reason that's happening and it's not because no one is watching.
Kate: Yes. Cuz lots of people are, lots of it still sells. It's still, I mean, and the way in which pop culture has been a part of perpetuating all this stuff for centuries, but in the last, I'm thinking just kinda in the last 20 or 30 years with all the weight loss TV shows and Instagram. I mean it's just still rampant,
Evette: Unfortunately. That is the truth.
Kate: Okay, well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, we are back.
Doree: I also really liked how you dissected the way that fat people are represented in popular culture and you know, say representation is not enough. And I really liked how you broke down a lot of these characters that I think were held up as good representation. Natasha Rothwell's character on Insecure, for example. You know, really for me, complicated my view of her and her character. And that scene where she gets fingered in the restaurant is was such an iconic scene and you really changed how I now think about that scene,
Evette: Which is hard to do. That's a hard thing for me to do because I wanna see more fat people on television. I really, really do. I want Disney to have fat characters. I just don't want to have that character deal with body dysmorphia, which is what they have. Well, we have our first ground breaking fat character, but that character is dealing with body dysmorphia, not that fat people dont, but is that all that we have? And it's really difficult. I love Insecure. I really enjoyed This Is Us. I really enjoyed these shows. I love Shrill. Shrill is one of my favorite shows ever. And outside of Shrill these shows, don't think of fat people outside of the realm of their weight. Kate's entire trajectory on This Is Us was related to her weight from the way that she met her first husband to what happened when she wanted to get pregnant to the birth of that child and all the trauma that followed, all had a relationship to her weight. And not to say fat people don't have that experience, but that's not all that we experience. It's not just that. It's not just comedic relief for a thin person. It's not just constantly overwhelmingly thinking about weight. We never have relationships. We're not intimate with anyone. That's not true. It's just realistically not true. But that seems to be all Hollywood is ready for, unfortunately.
Kate: So where does allyship play into all of this in terms of, I guess mean in terms of straight size folks, but also just culturally allies, allies to the fat, fat people. Is being a fat ally? Oh, not, is it a thing? Obviously it is. But what does that truly look like? And I guess I also wanna ask your thoughts on what happens when we fuck up. How do we take accountability when we fuck up in this space in terms of fat allyship
Evette: And we will
Kate: Yeah,
Evette: That that's the reality. Humans are complicated and that that's something to be expected. I think it's essential. I don't think any movement, so ultimately the thing that I advocate for in this book is systemic changes in our world that allow fat people to live with dignity. It's really not about how we interact with each other individually. That's important too. It's really about how do we shift our systems in our world to be more accommodating of fat people and more equitable toward fat people. And in order for that to happen straight size, people have to join the lobbying and the organizing and the movement building around these issues. Whether it's passing laws across the United States like Michigan is the only law right now that prohibits employers from discriminating against someone for being fat. That should happen nationwide. And that requires everyone to say, oh, this is a problem and lobby around it.
Or the fact that you can go to an amusement park and there are no rides if you're over a certain size. And once you get to a certain size, your world is so small because no one accommodates for that. You need everyone. If it's only fat people advocating for this, it's not going to make a difference. We need everyone truly to make these sorts of changes. But in terms of interpersonally, when people fuck up, which we all do, we all do. If we're an ally to any movement, we all fuck up. The best place to start is change behavior. How you interact with that particular person who you offended or something that you said that rubbed them the wrong way. That's between you and that person. But I always say the best apology is full on change behavior. It's unlearning, it's consciously being aware of the language that you're using, how you're interacting with fat people, what you're saying about them when they can see you and when they can't, which is why I'd loved including that story in, I forget which essay it is, Jesus but about.
Kate: Its a lot.
Evette: Ok. But about the woman on the plane and seeing the guy's text messages, making fun of her size and her confronting him about it, the best way in which he can ever atone for that is to change his behavior. Ensure that never happens again. How she wants, if she's willing to forgive him, that's on her right. That's fully on that person to make that choice. But the person who's doing the offending has to unlearn that behavior and change it.
Kate: Well, your book is, I mean, so insightful. We are both encouraging everyone to go out and read it obviously but it was a really fantastic and enjoyable read and before
Doree: Also. Yes, may I just add, wonderful cover. I love this.
Kate: Oh, I know. I have the same thought, it's a gorgeous cover.
Evette: Thank you so much. Gorgeous cover. We went through so many artists to get that cover, but it was worth it. It was so worth it.
Kate: I hope you have that framed. It's beautiful.
Evette: It's beautiful. I need it framed. I wanna hang it in my office. Yeah.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: So this is just one final gear shift because we do always try to wrap up our interviews with an inquiry into a skincare practice, if you have one. What does it look like if you have products that you recommend and don't think, I didn't notice when you mentioned that you said something earlier on about there was a whole skin thing. So that of course peaked my curiosity. But we'd love to know if you do have a skincare practice, what it looks like, and if there's any product that you can't live without that you wanna share with our listeners.
Evette: I'm so excited about this. I've been looking forward to this, the whole interview. Okay,
Kate: Yes. Enough about this beautiful book you wrote Onto Skin.
Evette: Onto Skin. I do have a skincare practice. I am a huge fan of the entire line of Peach and Lilly. Huge fan. I use it in the morning. I use it in the evening. Okay. Huge fan. I'm a big fan of using, I usually do a moisturizer, a toner, sometimes vitamin C, depending, sometimes it depends on the time of year, but sometimes vitamin C I typically do two moisturizers. My skin is very dry and I live in Denver, which means it's like supremely dry here. So I usually use two moisturizers and then sunscreen. Highly recommend always using sunscreen, even if you're a black person, even if you have darker skin. Always, always use sunscreen. And then depending on how my skin is feeling, I'm a big fan of using a cooling serum, particularly on my cheeks. My cheeks tend to get rosy, so I use a cooling serum before I put moisturizer on. But highly, highly recommend Peach and Lilly, everything their entire line is phenomenal.
Doree: Do you use I love their glass serum. Do you ever use that one?
Evette: Oh yes. Every night.
Kate: So good.
Doree: Also, I feel like I need to, we just need to tell our listeners because they're not going to be able to see you. That skin is glowing. You're glowing.
Kate: You do.
Evette: Thank you.
Doree: Just for what it's worth. Yeah. Well, Evette, it was so great to get to talk to you. As we have both said, multiple times, we loved your book. And can you tell our listeners where they can find you, read your work, et cetera?
Evette: Yes. You can find me across the internet @FreeBlackGirl. I know Twitter is twittering but FreeBlackGirl. Any platform, new and old, the best place to find me.
Doree: Great. Well thank you so much.
Kate: Thank you.
Evette: Thank you.
Doree: Evette was so, she's so great. Her book is so great. It just came out yesterday.
Kate: It's Really great. And I think as we, I know personally just continuing to explore our relationship to our own bodies and other people's bodies. I'm so grateful that there are writers like Evette out there, not just exploring this topic, but also sharing the way in which their own stories are a part of it, it's just really, it's such a great read. So go get wait lists. We both really loved it.
Doree: Well, Kate, you last week said you wanted to walk, walk, walk.
Kate: I did. As I told you, I walked under the fat phobic diet signs of the cruise.
Doree: Gosh. Yeah.
Kate: Listen, if anyone from the Royal Caribbean organization is listening and you wanna know what boat I was on and you wanna take those signs down, email the pod. I highly recommend you remove them. Now do we think anyone from Royal Caribbean has ever heard of this podcast? Doubtful. Fuck. You never know. Hey,
Doree: You never know.
Kate: Crazier things have happened this week when I filled out this document. My intention was to kind of start my 5K walk training but I didn't do that this week because I'm not feeling well and I didn't wanna push my body to do anything that wasn't going to serve it. What I have been doing is practicing 30 minutes of yoga every morning, and I'm going to actually do that when we finish recording. And I am having kind of, not a revelation, but 30 minutes of very slow flow, very basic yoga classes. My back, the back pain and the tightness that I've been experiencing in my body, it's already so much better. And I just was reminded of like, oh God, this simple short movements really make such an impact. I'm not doing anything strenuous. Yeah. I'm not doing it to bulk up. I'm just doing it to really stretch and it has felt amazing. So I'm going to try to keep that up next week. That's my intention.
Doree: I just remember one of our very first conversations with a guest with Jasmine Guillory, and she had been doing yoga every day at that point for, I think she had just finished a year maybe,
Kate: I think it was like 60 days. And it was early on in her thousands of days
Doree: Of it was really early, but she was already, I feel so much better. And then I think when we interviewed her again, she had seen some real changes just in how she felt in her body. And now she's been doing it for six years or something. I mean, it's amazing. And I wish I did that. In all honesty, nothing is holding me back from doing it, to be clear except myself. Well, Kate, last week I said I did not wanna get stressed out about not being as good at tennis as I remember the people I was playing with.
Kate: Yes. And then you all went
Doree: To coffee. Yeah, we didn't go to coffee, but we did play afterwards. And I went to a live ball thing. The other day. And some of it was sometimes the groups are, there's more people just sort of at my level. And then there's a few really good ones. And then the one I went to the other day, most of the people were very good, noticeably better than me. And I was like, oh Fuck. But I didn't like, I did okay. I did okay. I made it to the champion side a few times.
Kate: What? ok. I dunno what that means, but Yes. Yes. Okay.
Doree: I was trying and there were a couple times where I said to someone like, oh, trying to keep up with you guys or something. And she was like, you're doing great. And I was like, okay. Okay. I don't know. It's interesting. This week I gotta figure out this half marathon thing.
Kate: Okay. That's a great intention. Figure out the half marathon thing.
Doree: Yeah. I just gotta figure out, because if I'm going to do it, I need to really figure out my training.
Kate: And your plane tickets.
Doree: And my plane tickets. What have I done? Okay. Kate, this was such a delight. Thank you for coming with me on this journey.
Kate: Of course. I will run alongside you via a podcast anytime.
Doree: Oh, thank you so much. All right, everyone. This podcast is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Talk to y'all again soon. Bye bye.