Episode 240: Aging in Beauty Culture with Valerie Monroe
“I think crows feet are the most beautiful wrinkles because you get those from smiling.”
- Valerie Monroe
Kate visits with friends she hasn’t seen in years and Doree deals with a sick husband and co-host. Then, Valerie Monroe, former Beauty Director at O, The Oprah Magazine and author of the newsletter How Not To F*ck Up Your Face, joins them to discuss why most serums are not worth the money, the importance of loving your crow’s feet, and the best, simplest skincare routine you can do for your skin and your wallet.
Photo Credit: Marcia Ciriello
To leave a voicemail or text for a future episode, reach them at 781-591-0390. You can also email the podcast at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Visit forever35podcast.com for links to everything they mention on the show or shopmyshelf.us/forever35.
Follow the podcast on Twitter (@Forever35Pod) and Instagram (@Forever35Podcast) and join the Forever35 Facebook Group (Password: Serums).
Sign up for the newsletter! At forever35podcast.com/newsletter.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links.
Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And together we are not experts.
Doree: We are not, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: I'm excited because we are gonna kind of get into serums today, but maybe not in the way that you think
Doree: Dun
Kate: Dun little foreshadowing for you. Before we do that, you can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com for links to everything we mention on the show. Our Twitter is Forever 35 Pod, our Instagram's Forever 35 podcast, and you can join the forever 35 Facebook group where the password is serums.
Doree: You can also shop our fave prods at shop my.us/forever 35. You can sign up for our newsletter at Forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And please do call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at Forever 35 podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: And of course, check out our merch with bounce bound pounds bound.co/shop/forever 35.
Doree: Yeah, baby.
Kate: Yeah, baby <laugh>. Sorry, I'm like hopped up on 8 million medications right now. I might be a little, I don't know if I'm hyper. I don't know. I'm out of my mind. I'm on so many things because I have this like, oh boy cough infection situation going on, which you can probably hear in my voice a little bit, I think.
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: Sorry. Anyway, I've got so many things coursing through my body right now.
Doree: That does not sound fun. I have to say. I'm sorry to force you to record this podcast.
Kate: No, I actually, I don't have a sore throat or anything. It's more just the cough is always lurking around every corner. And also I
Doree: Feel lurking cough.
Kate: Oh, it's lurking. It's in my body. Just wanting to interrupt everything. And it's funny, it's not funny, but I, as an adult now, I'm way more concerned about medicines interacting with each other, which is not something ever
Doree: Oh, sure, sure.
Kate: I never thought about that as a 20 year old, but now I,
Doree: Yeah, now I think about it
Kate: Deeply. Watch out everyone. Yeah. Oh my God. Now I, I'm like quizzing my doctor. Then I quiz the pharmacist and then I'm googling my, it's like, I don't know. We change as we get older and I'm just, Can I also take my Prozac with this antibiotic? With this inhaler? Okay. You say
Doree: So. Oh my gosh, yes. Anyway.
Kate: Hi Doree. Hello.
Doree: How are you? Hi Kate. You know I'm okay. I'm good. I'm fine. Great. <laugh> what? Talking about? No,
Kate: That's good. Fine. Is good.
Doree: I'm fine. I am fine. Yeah. I have my health, knock wood. My husband is sick.
Kate: Oh no.
Doree: Who knows what he has. Okay. He also keeps testing negative for the coves.
Kate: Yeah, me too. But he's,
Doree: He's just not feeling great, so trying to avoid getting whatever he has, but good. I have to say lately, <affirmative>, I have not gotten sick when he's gotten sick.
Kate: What's that about?
Doree: I mean, I think I get more sleep than he does
Kate: <laugh>. Interesting.
Doree: I don't know.
Kate: Immune systems are so weird.
Doree: Immune systems are wild.
Kate: The thing I'm dealing with right now, I think I've explained like Anthony got a cold, gave it the whole family, including me. Everybody got better, including me. And then I got a second cold and then that started to get better and then that changed into a third thing, which is what I'm now dealing with, which was like, it's like I just kept getting back to back sick. And I don't know if it's at this point, it's maybe bacterial. I don't know. It doesn't matter. I don't need to diagnose. I don't need any diagnosis help. I'm just saying it's a fucking wild ride to just be for your body not to be able to kick something, which it sounds like Matt is experiencing. It's weird. I want my immune system to be beefy. I want her to be strong.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: <laugh>. Right? And I'm trying to do all the things, but I want a bodybuilder immune system.
Doree: I know, I know. And it's hard to know how much of that is just baked in and how much of that is actually influenceable. You know what I mean?
Kate: Yes. How much of it is just our lot in life? Yes. Are the elderberry gummies really impacting my immune system?
Doree: I'm gonna say probably not.
Kate: <laugh>, I mean, I'm gonna probably agree with you, but they're delicious.
Doree: Well then you know what? It doesn't sound like they're hurting you but Yeah. I mean personally probably wouldn't rely on those, but
Kate: If you say so. Okay. I
Doree: Mean well, Kate, before you got sick, or I guess before you got this sick, you were with friends.
Kate: Yeah, I was some version of this sick with my friends which I've covid testing the whole time. And it's not covid, but I was still hacking around them with this cough. You know what I got to spend I got to see some of my, Well, at first I got to see some family, my little bro and my sister-in-law and my niece and nephew. And then I got to go be with my nearest and dearest group of college girlfriends together all together for the first time in since 2019.
Doree: Wow. Wait, is that
Kate: Right? No, since maybe, No, I'm sorry. Wait, since 2019 or 2020 I think Since Jan. Oh no, since summer of 2000 and, fuck, I don't know, <laugh>, sorry. Keep trying to do the math. I think since 2019 all together, we were last together at one of our weddings in 2019.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: These are just my soulmate friends in a lot of ways. And we got an Airbnb on Woodby Island, which is in Washington, and we just had a really beautiful time. It was incredibly emotional. Okay. You know what I was talking about, how I was talking to them about how I have really been struggling to figure out if I have joy in my life. And one thing I was trying to really focus on while I was with them is being really intentional on the joy in the moments of the good laughs or the beauty of the ocean or just the sea air, all these things. And so I was telling one of my friends this and she and I said, I've really been wondering what brings me joy in my life and I've been afraid I don't have an answer. And so she suggested that we pose that question that each person answers the question at dinner on our last night. So I started crying at just, Oh, not at my answer. Just being with my friends. I had a great laugh. I had to laugh where I was almost out of my mind. When you laugh so hard, you like your pants.
Doree: Yes, yes, totally.
Kate: We were remembering how my boyfriend came up to see me perform in a play of an audience of four people. And then he dumped me immediately afterwards. He sat next to my mom and then he dumped me also. Oh, just for you. It was an educational play about molestation and I played the mom. It was insane. Oh
Doree: Wow, okay. Yeah. That was a lot
Kate: That you just, Yeah. Anyway. Well that's not for the pod. So anyway, it was really wonderful. And then I went from there to spend time with some other friends and that was incredibly special. And I left early just cuz I was feeling sick. But I really got to see one of my friends from LA in her hometown and meet her family. And it was just so beautiful. We were at on the Yuba River, which I'd never been to here in northern California. And I just was just trying to be present and not be like, I have so much work, I shouldn't be here. I should have stayed home and done work. That was the mantra that it was in my head. And I had to really be like, Hey, you can have these experiences in life every free day of your life, a should of you should be working anyway. So I was just trying to sit and observe myself. Just observe. And it was really fun. So I was also just reminding myself that being around friends and being around people is an important part of taking care of myself. And it's been hard with Covid and it remains hard. And I was nervous cuz I had this cough cold thing. But it so far has worked out. Ok.
Doree: Well I'm glad to hear that.
Kate: Thank you, Doree. Thank you so much. Now I did pose the question, do you believe in signs? But I think we can save that for another podcast. Ok. But I want you to know, I was receiving signs all weekend and it was very spooky.
Doree: Whoa.
Kate: But we'll talk about that some other time.
Doree: Ok. Well, Kate, let's get to Val because Val, dare I say Val is iconic.
Kate: I have this, I don't wanna say creepy fixation, but I think one thing I've done since my mom died is search for older women who inspire me in the same way. And I was literally like, Oh, what I wouldn't give to just be your surrogate daughter vow because she's so cool, so smart.
Doree: I know. And you and I are both definitely intimidated by her. Yeah. Because
Kate: She contains, I felt that she, Okay, well first of all, let's just tell you who she is. Valerie Monroe was the beauty director at the Oprah Magazine for nearly 16 years. She wrote the very popular Ask Vow column. She's been an editor, a Ms. Red Book, Self Parenting Magazine. She's written a good trillion articles. She's the author of two books, City Kids, but Raising Kids the Cities And In The Weather of the Heart, which is a memoir about marriage. And she currently writes the very popular sub newsletter, How Not to Fuck Up Your Face, Where she offers very,
Doree: This is very good.
Kate: It's really good. She gives philosophical and practical advice for, as she says, anyone who's ever looked in the mirror. And her focus is really kind of about self-compassion. And she is, I believe, in her seventies.
Doree: So she's 70, she's almost 72.
Kate: So I just feel like she has had life experience that we can only dream of at this point. And she's incredibly, I think, both knowledgeable in the world, but also in sense of self. It felt to me she had a very deep relationship and understanding of her true self. And that was very inspiring.
Doree: <affirmative>, she has really interesting things to say about aging and appearance and I don't know, she really enjoy talking to her. So
Kate: Can I interrupt Doree with one thing? Yes. She discusses her skin care routine and we didn't ask her for her product Rex, but you can find them all in her newsletter and we'll link them on the website or on our show notes. But just so you know, when you hear her talking and she's gonna tell you, I do this and then I do this, this, and this all those recommendations are, you can be found in her subst stack. So don't worry, they are out there. But the great thing is, is that she's really she takes a very lofi approach to skincare, which is very exciting and intriguing to me. <affirmative>, we're talking no vitamin C serum. Spoiler
Valerie Monroe : Alert.
Doree: All right, here's Val. Well Val, we are so excited to have you on Forever 35. Welcome to the show.
Valerie Monroe : Thank you. I'm so happy to be here forever. 72 <laugh>.
Kate: Yes. <laugh>.
Doree: Wait, so you must have had a birthday recently because I feel like I read Oh, okay. Coming up.
Valerie Monroe : Yeah, coming up.
Doree: Cause you referred to being 71 in a recent newsletter, so
Valerie Monroe : Yes, yes. I said something again, walking along, feeling being happy in my 45 year old thoughts when I fell into a 71 71 year old hole, basically.
Kate: Yes, right. <laugh>, I heard you talking about that.
Valerie Monroe : And I had my speaking about, but I have my senior flu shot this morning, so if I suddenly become very quiet, better call the police. Call nine one one. I dunno what they put in it, but
Doree: Oh cool.
Valerie Monroe : Yeah, it's fun.
Doree: Well, Val, as you know, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So we're wondering what is yours?
Valerie Monroe : So there are a couple of things, actually one thing that's very practical that I do is I have a shampoo and a blowout once a week. So this is only possible because I've been through menopause and after menopause, you don't have to wash your hair every day. You'll find your hair gets a little bit drier. In fact, everything gets a little bit drier. But one of the nice things about it is that your hair gets a little drier so you don't need to wash it as much. And I love to have a shampoo. I love to have somebody else shampoo my hair. So that's always fun. And I'm very vain about my hair. And so it's nice to get a blowout on the regular. And I'm just looking at myself in the computer right now and I haven't had a blow. I'm due for one and it looks like I got caught in a rainstorm or something, but
Kate: Oh no, no, your hair looks perfect. It looks, actually, as you were saying this, I was like, wow, look at that hair <laugh> perfectly. Yes. That's my dream.
Valerie Monroe : I think it's really important as women get older to pay attention to their hair. Cuz I think your hair is one of the things that people notice first when they look at you. And if your hair is kind of youthful looking, I think it really adds to the energy of your parents.
Kate: So clarify this for me a little bit because, cause other stuff that I've read of yours, the intention is not to look younger, but it's the idea that you are almost how you're being received. Is that how you would kind of define it? Because I don't feel like I, I've read your work and that your focus is on anti-aging or aging backwards or reversing aging. In fact, I feel like you're really about embracing where you are in life.
Valerie Monroe : Yeah, actually I never use the word embracing because I find it it's somewhat cliche, so mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Kate: Sorry Kate, I'm not offended.
Valerie Monroe : And also it always reminds me of hugging something, which I think when we were talking about age, it's very hard to embrace your age because it's difficult. Aging is difficult, it's not really fun because there are lots of things that happen to your body when you get older. Especially I'm finding that when you pass maybe the 70 marker things start to fall off or just give you a problem give you problems. I think what I try to get people to look at, number one, is to not be afraid of it, if that's possible. Not be afraid of what happens to your face as you get older. And then number two is to try to maintain a healthy appearance. So you can look at someone who looks her age, whatever that means at 75 or 80. But if she looks healthy and vital even if she's wrinkled, if she has crow's feet, if her skin is wrinkled she's gonna give off a different, have a different presence than if she is not comfortable with who she is and how she looks at her age.
I think one of the important things about feeling comfortable with yourself as you get older is that you need to feel comfortable with your presence. And that manifests in the way you carry yourself. It manifests in your posture, it manifests in the way you look at people in the way you hold your head. It manifests in the strength of your voice, for example. And so many women say, Oh, when I turned 50 or whatever, I became invisible. Well, I think that's true to some extent that certain people, certain men typically stop noticing you in a particular way. I think that's because typically what our beauty culture is what it prizes is youth and a kind of hyper sexuality. And the further you get from those, I ideal that idealized notion, the harder it is to compete and the less attention you're gonna get. I think it's really important to feel comfortable with yourself as you get older and as that drops away as you can no longer compete in that arena if you ever wanted to because you'll be much happier with yourself if you are. And I think one of the ways that you can feel more comfortable is to recognize that it's important to stand up straight, to recognize your own presence and to take up space and to look people in the eye and to hold your head up straight and to feel noticed, even if you're not actually getting that, you're not perceiving that's happening.
Doree: Yeah. You wrote about this in a recent newsletter, and I actually wrote down this quote because I thought it so perfectly captured kind of this feeling that I've had trouble articulating, so I'm just going to read it. You wrote, When you choose to allow your age to freely manifest, I think it's an especially good idea to pay attention to your presentation sartorial and otherwise. Why? Because it can make you feel good, because taking time or being creative with your presentation communicates the idea that you respect yourself. And then you go on to say that you once wrote that SMUD lipstick or lipstick on your teeth is the droopy hem of makeup <laugh>. And I think that might be perceived differently on an older woman because it not only suggests carelessness, but also that bugaboo as we age, loss of control. I was like, whoa. I mean all of it. But this idea that how we are portray, how we putting ourselves out there to others as we age becomes especially more significant because it also can be perceived as a marker of our own mental acuity and mental and physical I guess. And I had never really thought about it that way. So this was pretty mind blowing for
Valerie Monroe : Me. So the way I got into that was I saw a story in the Times about I think the headline was something like Wrinkles, Wrinkles everywhere. And I thought, oh cool, the times it's going now writing about wrinkles, Right. Well, it turned out that the Vanessa Friedman, the reporter is a fashion reporter. She was writing about the trend of wrinkled clothing and <affirmative> wabi sabi as it relates to fashion. And then I said, what a missed opportunity that might've been had if the designers had also used women who had wrinkles. I thought maybe that would've been too matchy matchy, but it was kind of a nice idea, I thought. But then to go from there to well wearing wrinkled clothing for a person who isn't like 30 maybe, or it doesn't look like one of those stick figure models on the runway can be somewhat I wouldn't say dangerous, but it can be a little bit dicey because you don't always want it to look as if it's a choice.
You don't wanna look as if you just pulled something out of the dryer that needed to be ironed. And that's because as we get older I think there's kind of less generosity when people look at our appearance just across the board and particularly for a woman. But I think in terms of presentation, it's really important whether you wanna be creative with your presentation when you get older or you, you're very conservative that you just make sure that everything you're presenting is as much as possible a conscious choice. So one of the things I said later, I think in that post was that my mother who lived to be 93, and she was very vital. The first she happened to be very bosomy is she got older. And the first thing that made me think of her as old was when I noticed that she would occasionally have a stain on her shirt.
And I realized when you see something like that on a younger person, it's just like, oh, careless, sloppy, whatever kind of judgment you wanna make about that person. But when you see it on an older person, it kind of suggests more than that in a way. It suggests a lack of control, a lack of personal attention or something. And I think that's why it becomes important. I mean, I'm somewhat ambivalent about this whole thing because it's sad to me that so much of our self worth or what we think about how we're perceived has to do with our presentation, basically how we dress or whether we have lipstick on our teeth or whatever, <affirmative> <affirmative>. But I think it's really important to be conscious of that. Yeah,
Kate: It's tricky, right? Because we wish it were different, but part of whether or not we choose to participate in these systems or cultural messaging, we're still in it. And so navigating it in a way where you're, I guess self kindness is intact, seems very important. Right? Totally. Cause it almost sounds like you're taking control of the narrative by what you're describing.
Valerie Monroe : So yes. And one of the things that I think that I often that I'm emphasizing in my hosts is about self-compassion. Because our beauty culture is extremely mean. And it's extremely difficult for women to feel good about themselves as we participate in it. It's very hard not to participate in it because we live here, we live in it. And what I try to do is to get women to understand how the beauty culture affects them in negative ways and how they can titrate that so that they feel better about themselves. Mean, as I was saying earlier, it gets harder as we get older to feel good about yourself if you're participating in the beauty culture. But there are ways to limit the detrimental effects. One of the things that I often talk about is that it's really important to learn how to see yourself without objectification.
I don't know if you guys know what that is, but from a very young age, girls especially are taught when they look in the mirror to objectify their face, <affirmative> and their body. But I'm just gonna constant focus on the face here. So that means, what does that mean? It's like you look at yourself and your face is an object to be manipulated or decorated in a way to please some other person or a thing. So typically I'm thinking it's the male gays or the female gays, but you're looking at yourself not as a person, but as a thing. The distressing effect of this from the time you're like three or four. The destructiveness on our self-esteem as we get older is unbounded. And I think it's really important to learn how to undo that, how to unlearn looking at yourself with objectification. Because no matter what you choose to do with your face as you get older, whether you choose to do something that's moderate, if you choose to do nothing, if you choose to do something that's invasive, if you choose to have a facelift, you're gonna be happier with all, any result.
If you can see yourself with the same loving kindness you see the people you love. So there's an exercise, it's called mirror meditation that you can do. I can tell you how I fell into it if you're interested in that. Yes, I would love to hear that. So when I first started at the Oprah magazine, they threw me a big party. It's not something I was accustomed to. And at this party, there were people who were important in the beauty industry. I hadn't been in the beauty industry before that. And somebody sent me a photo that was taken at the party of me in a face-to-face conversation with the model Iman. She is this gorgeous creature <affirmative>. And I looked at this photo and the way I described it was that I felt pretty good about myself. I felt excited to be in this new job, and I thought I looked fine at this party.
And I looked at this photo and I looked at me looking face to face with I, and as I described it, she was like, looked like a hot house orchid in full exotic bloom or something. And I looked like a parking lot daisy on a warm afternoon. And it felt so disappointing to me. And I looked at the photo and I put it down and I walked over to the mirror in my office and I looked into my own eyes. I had been doing a lot of personal work during this time, and I looked into my own eyes and I kept looking at myself until I actually saw myself. I saw the person who lives there. And in that moment I just said, Oh hi sweetie. And I was completely relieved. I felt completely fine about this photograph. And then I discovered later that there's actually science behind that.
There's a clinical psychologist, her name is Tara. Well, she does work at Barnard. She's got a book out, unfortunately, I think the name of her book is Mirror Meditation. But she's done research about how looking at yourself with mirror meditation that is looking into your own eyes in a mirror, a disciplined way over the course of time and allowing your feelings to come up can help you feel better about yourself, better about the way you look, have it can improve your self-esteem. And the way I think about it is that if you're a good friend and a friend comes to you to talk to about something that's bothering her, what do you, You listen, right? You do what's called deep listening, which is you just are fully present for her, right? Well, that's what you're doing for yourself when you're doing mere meditation, when you're doing it in the best possible way and allowing yourself that kind of compassion. In my experience. And I think in other women's experience, it it's possible to completely shift the way you see your face when you look in the mirror.
Typically when we look in the mirror where just we automatically go to scanning our face for flaws, if you don't do that, you're very unusual. And if you've done mirror meditation and you learn to see your face as you look at the face of your mother, your sister, some your best friend, you don't scan anymore or you scan and you're conscious of it and you stop. And I think it's so critical for us to learn that exercise, learn how to do that so that we can feel more compassionate about ourselves, especially as we get older. It really makes us happier.
Kate: Okay. Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, we are back.
Doree: I wanted to ask you about something you touched on a little bit, which is unlearning. And you know, were beauty director at O for 16 years. And so participating in beauty culture and influencing beauty culture in a really major way. And I'm wondering, now that you've been out of it for five years is there anything that you look back on that, I don't wanna say regret, but that you have a different perspective on? Now?
Valerie Monroe : I'm not sure because of where I was being at the Oprah magazine I didn't have the same kind of restrictions on what I could write about that other people had at other magazines because Oprah is the go lays the gold mag, right? So we didn't feel beholden to advertisers in the way that almost every other beauty editor was beholden to advertisers. I did, I write more about stuff that would encourage people to buy things when I was there. Of course that was my job, right? But I actually left the magazine when it became clear that I had lost control over what I could write truthfully about. I feel better saying that now the magazine doesn't exist anymore the way it did. But because of what happened in the magazine industry I was no longer able to practice the kind of integrity that had been that Oprah and Amy Gross, the magazine editor, had encouraged me to practice as the beauty director when I was there.
And when that happened, when I couldn't write truthfully about stuff anymore, that's when I left. So I would've had regrets if I had felt like I had completely lost my integrity while I was there. But because I was able to leave, no, actually I don't really have regrets. I mean, it's easier for me to write more now about, as I recently did, about a skincare routine that's only has only four products. Which I also wanted to bring up with you guys because I remember one of you, I forget whether it was you, Doree, were talked about wanting to have a capsule skincare routine. Is that what? That's
Kate: Me.
Valerie Monroe : That's
Kate: Me. Doree kind of already does. She's a little bit more streamlined. I tend to have an impulsive pattern of behavior bowel to put it nicely.
Valerie Monroe : So I say go for it, right? If you have the money and it brings you pleasure, but don't expect it to improve your complexion. I mean, the fact that you guys like to talk about serums, I found kind of hilarious when you asked me to come on because I'm constantly telling people don't buy serums cuz they're a waste of money. But if you can afford a serum and you think it's doing something for you great But there isn't science, good science behind it. So
Kate: Have fun. Okay, let's dig into this because I do feel like over the course of the almost five years we've been doing this podcast, I think we've both become so much more educated on skincare and have interviewed folks like Jessica Dino, and now you who really dig into this. And you put it just so plainly and perfectly where you're it, it's in your sub newsletter. And of course I don't have it right open in front of me, but the way you just describe, it's like basic skin care steps are really all you need. Everything else, like you said, if you can afford it and it makes you feel good, great. But ultimately, especially with backed up by scientific evidence, there's not much, even like a vitamin C serum, you argue, there's really not much evidence that shows it's going to do much of anything. Like a little bit, but not a kind of massive difference appreciable. And I really value that you are coming out and saying this cuz I do think we need to be talking about this a lot more because this is striking me more and more as the ultimate truth of skincare
Valerie Monroe : <affirmative>. So Jess Dino is way more radical than I am about this and I really admire her. But I like to say that I'm kind of like the gentle person. I'm the gentle one to come to when you're on this trajectory. And Jess says, at the end of her subsection, she says, You're gonna die one day no matter how old you look, how young you look, or something like that. Which I think it's really fun, but it's not anything I would ever say to my readers because it's like, I don't wanna be slapping 'em in the face. You're gonna die, you're gonna die. I mean, we all know we're gonna die. You actually talked about that recently on one of your podcasts. And that's something else. I think it's really important to get into in the beauty arena because it affects how we feel about the way we look.
When I talk about what you need in a skin care routine basically I'm trying to clarify things for women who walk into a drug store or they're watching television or social media, wherever they're getting their information from. And there's just so much stuff and 99% of the stuff is, I wouldn't call it crap, but it's unnecessary. So as I said in the post about my own skincare routine, there is one ingredient that has been shown to be effective in reducing fine lines and wrinkles because it helps to generate collagen and elast and elastin. And that is a retinoid vitamin. A derivative. And you can get a prescription and you can get an over the counter retinoid retinol. But that is one thing that will ultimately is likely to show an appreciable difference in your skin. Vitamin C serums are recommended by a lot of dermatologists and it's because of their anti antioxidant action.
But I'm not sure that because they're very expensive, because vitamin C is hard to stabilize. I'm not sure that vitamin C serum, if you use it every day, is going to show up on your skin in some way. I mean, maybe there is antioxidant activity, so maybe it's doing something, but is the price is of the serum worth the value of what you're getting in your, I don't know, right? With retinoids I do know, or we do know. And then everything else that's on the market, I, I heard another very, I can't remember her name, but she's very well, someone very well educated about skincare say that NAYA cinema actually does more, has better antioxidant activity than a vitamin C serum. But doctors, our doctor's gonna say, we'll use this niacinamide serum rather than a vitamin C is just, it's much more marketable. And marketing is so important in terms of what you guys or what we all are encouraged to buy in the beauty arena.
So anything else basically that you're encouraged to buy as a moisturizer? I mean, even peptides I've read don't do that much for research. They don't really, doctors don't really know. Researchers don't really know how much they affect the skin. I mean, you can see some evidence that they do kind of improve, though. I don't like to use the word improve, but they do have some effect on the skin. But what you get in the bottle that you buy online from L'Oreal or glaucoma, I don't know how much that's affecting your skin. And so basically I just said, what I've been saying is, you know, wanna go with the straightforward with what it works and that's a moisturizer and a sunscreen, which is probably the most important thing you can put on your skin. And then use a very gentle non soap cleanser. And that's it.
So that's four products. And I read recently that and I think it was the dermatologist Hirsch who said something about two patients who came into her office. And one was someone who had just bought a $450 moisturizer and she was interested in seeing, having office treat office treatments. And then another one came, another woman came in and she was a young mom and she had no time for skincare and all she was using was sunscreen and a retinoid. She was the one who had the far better skin care routine than the woman who was spending a fortune and maybe not using her sunscreen. But my sunscreen skincare routine is under 50 bucks, costs
Doree: Under 50. And you've written about how you would rather save your money for in office treatments versus buying expensive skincare. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the in office treatments that you've done that you would recommend.
Valerie Monroe : And so remember that these are only treatments, the treatments that I've done that I like for myself. I mean, I've heard a guest of yours talk talking about clear and brilliant one day and saying, I can't remember who that was, but she was saying, Oh, I had clear men. It was brilliant. It was so fantastic. Well, I had six clear and brilliant treatments and I might had as well have done nothing. So it's very, very individual, very personal about what you like. A few things that I think are probably helpful across the board are radio frequency microneedling which a lot of doctors are liking these days. And I've had it a number of times and I just like the way it kind of evened out my skin tone.
If you don't know what it is, your face is punctured with lots of, I don't know, 60 teeny weenie little needles all over your face after you're numbed. And there's a radio frequency device that's attached to it. So it has been shown to also to help generate collagen and elast in which are the foundations, What holds your skin up basically. I like that. And there's something called intense pulse light which is a much gentler treatment. I mean, it feels like rubber bands snapping across your face. That is very good for if you have little broken blood vessels, which a lot of women develop over time and that gets rid of them. So those are two treatments I think that work pretty well across the board. Anything that you go into and expect a huge difference about is just useless. It's not gonna happen. I mean, one of my favorite dermatologists, her name is SD Williams. She's very, very honest and very straightforward. And she said a recent post she told me, The less device has to do the better it works. Now think about that for a minute.
Kate: Wait a second, hold on. My brain is spending a little bit, The less the device has to do,
Valerie Monroe : The less it has to do, the better it's gonna work. So that means
Doree: It's kind of all those kitchen tools that do a million things. Like you're better off just getting one
Valerie Monroe : Ely. Actually, it's not quite that. It's more that, okay, if you go in with a big job for the device, the results are gonna be far less effective or appreciable than if you go in expecting just a little tightening. So if you have a little bit of joing, okay, something like soft wave is gonna do more than if you go in with full a Turkey neck and full swing, then it's not gonna see much. Right? Ok. So that's one thing. It's important to remember. These things are not cheap. And what you always wanna be thinking about is what am I getting for the money? So I always ask a doctor, what is it gonna do for me? I'm a 71 72 year old person. This is what my skin is like now. How much of a difference am I gonna be able to see? And <affirmative> typically mean for somebody like me who has, I haven't had surgery except for a skin cancer surgery on my face.
Typically for me, the difference is in the skin tone. And my goal now is to look, have healthy looking skin. And I'm gonna have some, some wrinkling. I have crows feet, I do Botox on my forehead twice a year cuz I like the way it gives my forehead, my eye a kind of lift. But I don't let the doctor touch my crow's feet because I think crows feet are the most beautiful wrinkles because you get them from smiling. And there's something very important about that, by the way, which is if you have too much Botox around your eyes to try to get rid of crow's feet, it interferes with a full smile, which is called a Duchenne smile. And it means that you can't actually smile a full smile. And if that weren't bad enough, it means that when you're talking to somebody and you're smiling, that person isn't receive from you the effects of what a full smile would communicate. So it basically limits your ability to communicate your happiness to somebody else when you can. There's a neural loop so that person feels your happiness and you get it back. But if your boat talks too much around the eyes and you can't do a full smile, it kills that. So it's not just an appearance issue, it's also when you're thinking about beauty treatment, there's also a sociological issue too.
Kate: Yeah, I love that.
Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay, we're back.
Kate: I wanted to circle back just to something that you mentioned about how sunscreen is such an effective tool and you had a really funny line in one of your newsletters, which was I have it in front of me, I found it. You come to think of it. No one has ever asked me about whether sunscreen does what it's touted to do or if it's worth it, the expense. I hope that's because you don't need to be encouraged to use it, which this hit home something that, I mean, I personally believe, but I feel like we've talked about a lot is really is sunscreen is really the key. Sunscreen is the thing you should have in your skin care routine every day. And again, I think I would ask if you think it needs to be a fancy one or a drugstore one is great but that to me, it's like that's the tool. That's the thing we all need. And the fact that people are overlooking it, I'm sure they're still using it, but kind of overlooking it for the exciting serums as we've done in the past. <laugh> is very funny, but also very relatable to how I behave.
Valerie Monroe : Yeah, I think you're right. And in terms of the yes, you're right, it's the one thing that you should be using that will keep your complexion in the healthiest shape possible. I mean yes, sunscreen, I mean it's more important actually not to expose your face to the sun. So wear a hat if you can. And you're not supposed to go out between 10 and not, you're supposed to avoid sun exposure between 10 and two, which to me is not, it's not realistic. But yes. So keeping your face out of the sun is a really good idea. And then wearing a good sunscreen, and by good I mean it, it's broad spectrum, it says, so it's got UVA U V B protection and it's at least S P F 30. I wore an SPF 15 for years and years, and I'm sorry I did, I'm wearing a 30 now.
Anything up to, I mean, 30, 45 is great. Anything greater than I think about 50. It's the difference that it makes. I'm not positive about this, but I think the difference it makes in your protection isn't that great. But that's the main thing. And you can get a great sunscreen at the drug store. You don't have to spend a lot on a sunscreen. Cause the most important thing about the sunscreen you buy is that you wear it. Right. And it doesn't have to be fancy. I thought you were gonna say when you remember something that you thought was funny I wrote was what I typically say about the importance of war sunscreen. If you take a look at your bottom you're likely to recognize a missed opportunity <laugh>. Because if you're not a nude, your bum is probably not ever seeing the sun. And you'll notice that the skin on your bum is probably very soft and kind of clear and very different from the skin on your face because your face is exposed.
Doree: I sorry to use this word, but I'm a psycho about sun protection, so I see
Valerie Monroe : You're very pale.
Doree: I'm very pale. And my dad has had some skin cancer stuff. So been, especially in the last few years, I've been really just really careful about it. It's
Valerie Monroe : The best thing you can do for your skin.
Doree: I mean, it's also obviously a health issue as we all know. It's not just about how our skin looks, it's about skin cancer. So I do try <laugh> to do it, although I have noticed lately that I'm very vigilant about my face. But arms, yeah, me too. The rest of my body, I'm kinda like, Oh yeah definitely not as consistent. So
Valerie Monroe : There's something that the Skin Cancer Foundation has on their website that's really which is that 99% of skin aging is due to sun exposure.
Kate: I wanted to ask you about how else you've cultivated in your life. It sounds like that became an important practice to you. It's at some point, and I'd love to know just if you've done other things or if that's a big something that you've focused on in recent years.
Valerie Monroe : In recent years, Yeah. Recent being the last 30 years. Yes, it has that count. Yeah. <laugh>, when my husband and I were married just a couple of years, he was an identical twin, and his brother became addicted to drugs and killed himself. And my husband then started to move along that same trajectory. And so during that time of that marriage was very challenging, and we were both in a lot of pain. And I started doing some personal work. And during that time, I realized a lot of things about the way I was raised. And this again, is something I think you guys, I've heard you guys talk about before, but something that I thought of when I was listening to you is completely beauty related. But my mother suffered from eczema the whole time she was carrying me. And when I was born, it went away <affirmative>.
And I think maybe you might have been talking about the relationship between the mind and the skin, maybe with Jess, I'm not sure <affirmative>, but when I was born, my grandmother said to my mother, Oh, all you needed was a little girl to make you feel better. And that was the story of my life. It was like I was put on earth to make people feel better. So many women, I thought my role was to make you feel better no matter what I felt to make you feel better. I took a backseat to all that. And when I was doing my work in therapy, which I highly recommend I realized that it wasn't necessary to live my life that way. And basically what I did in therapy, and I wrote about this, and I have a memoir, I wrote a memoir called In The Weather of the Heart. It's a story of my marriage.
Basically in therapy, I re raised myself, so I reparented myself in a much more compassionate way. And I think there was a moment in my therapy when I was going through talking about something that I had done as a child. And my therapist said to me, My son then was a very small about, I don't know, three or four maybe. And my therapist said, Well, how would you feel about your son if your son did that? And in that moment, my heart just completely broke open with compassion. And I thought, Oh, of course, the way I feel about him is the way I should feel about myself. What's the difference? It completely changed my life. I related started relating to people, not just my family, but everyone in a completely different way. And in a way, I mean, instead of walking on eggshells my whole life, I began walking on the solid earth and felt much more grounded. And it wasn't until I got into the beauty industry and I saw the consequences of that kind of distortion of self image as it related to beauty that peaked my interest in helping women feel more compassionate about the way they felt in the beauty arena and in beauty culture.
Doree: Oh, I, I'm so glad you brought that up. I think that's so important because it's hard to challenge this narrative of the beauty industry that is predicated upon all of us thinking that something is wrong with us and that there's something that we need to constantly be improving. And it works against self-compassion in that way. And so I think starting with self-compassion, like you were saying, is just so important for those of us who might want to still participate in beauty culture, but come at it from a different perspective. Well, Val, thank you so much for coming on the show. This was such a wonderful conversation and I'm so glad. I hope that we can keep talking. Where can our listeners find you if they want to subscribe to your newsletter and follow along with
Valerie Monroe : Your work? So the newsletter is called How Not To Fuck Up Your Face, and you can read it@valeriemonroe.sub.com. So that's V A L E R I E M O N R O e@sub.com.
Kate: It's so good. You should definitely subscribe. Yeah. Thank
Valerie Monroe : You guys. Thank you so much.
Kate: Well, I mean, Doree, I think we could have talked to her forever. I mean, always say this a lot.
Doree: Yeah, I know. But really with her,
Kate: That was your immediate text to me after we got off. I'm just gonna scroll back through my text message. It's just to see here what you said. You said, I'm obsessed with her <laugh> in a text, and I said, Hard. Same.
Doree: Well, she's so cool. I tell it like it is.
Kate: You do and you have a big heart, and I like that you love our guests, but I just thought she was the coolest. I really hope we get a chance to talk to her again.
Doree: Likewise. Now, Kate
Kate: Yy,
Doree: How did it go getting your vitamins and supplements organized last week?
Kate: Pretty good, but I can already feel the system crumbling, so I have to get back to it. I have to figure out what my, this is where I'm at in life. I'm figuring out what my systems are. Shout out to the ama. I have to just shout 'em out. The Forever 35 ADHD Facebook group. I cannot tell you what this group has meant to me. Story. Oh, I really cannot. It's such a fantastic resource. If you're in the group and you're listening, thank you. I love you. You have helped me so much. Even though I don't always chime in. I'm just always there lurking and learning, and I, I'm really starting to understand that I need to form habits and systems in order to stay on top of things. So I know you'll hear about this shortly, but that's something I need to figure out with these vitamins and supplements and me mental health medications, because your girl takes a lot. So yeah. Okay. I need to figure out, once I'm at the end of the week, when do I restart? I need to sit down and create an experience of putting all the pills in their proper place.
Doree: Okay. All right. Well this is good.
Kate: That was a long winded answer,
Doree: Getting your systems in place.
Kate: And that leads me to my intention for this week, which is to write down my systems and my workflow. So you'll see, I actually started doing this yesterday. I'll show you the piece. I mean, this is just for you. It's just a piece of paper with notes, <affirmative>. But I actually have been really trying to figure out is what apps work for me in helping me keep my life together? And then what are the daily steps that I follow in utilizing them? Because one thing I think that happens when you get into this working on figuring out your ADHD brain is all these different, like ADHD coaches and influencers have different app suggestions. Like, Oh, I use Notion, I use Asana, I used Trello. And then you go and you download all of them, and then you're like, Oh my God, I'm not gonna make this work for me. So I took a step back yesterday and I was like, Well, what already works for me and how can I capitalize on those things rather than thinking I need to go and learn a new app or whatever. So for me, that's Google Calendar, that's Apple reminders and Apple Notes, and figuring out how I'm gonna use those things to really kind of create some organizational and structural systems for me. So I'm excited. It feels good to be working on those things.
Anyway. Ok. That's where I'm at this week. Shifting gears, how did it go over there? Organizing stuff to sell?
Doree: It did not go, which is why I am reupping this intention for next week.
Kate: Great. That is Intentions have long shelf lives. Shelf lives.
Doree: Yeah. Shelf lives. Shelf
Kate: Lives. You don't need to do it in a week. Good for you. I'm excited. What are you doing? Clothes, shoes, house. What is it?
Doree: I mean, at this point it's just everything. It's, It's everything. It's, I'm drowning, Kate. I'm drowning. Got it.
Kate: I hear you. I'm sorry to hear that. I
Doree: Gotta just buckle down and do it. Okay.
Kate: Well, I have seen you do this before and I know you are very good at moving stuff, so moving stuff out. So I believe in you.
Doree: Okay. All right. Thank you. I appreciate the support. Alright, well, Kate, it's been a pleasure as always, and let's just remind everyone that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me Doree Shafrir and you, Kate Spencer are produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, our network partners, Acast. Talk to you all again soon.
Kate: Bye.