Episode 227: Not Usually A Joiner with Cameron Esposito
"Dealing with rejection is like a version of codependency and looking to the ‘other’ that I've been trying to heal in myself.”
- Cameron Esposito
Kate stumbles across a travel hack and Doree prepares to travel with a three-year-old. Then, Cameron Esposito joins them behind the mic to talk about why the lowest moment of her life moved her to comedy, how her running partner came from literally stopping someone in the street, and how queer standup has changed in her generation.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer.
Doree: I am Doree Shafrir,
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We are not, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: We do together, and you can always visit our website forever35 podcast. For links to everything we mention on our show, you can find us on Twitter at forever35pod on Instagram at forever35podcast. And you can join the forever35 Facebook group where the password is serums.
Doree: You can also shop our fave prods at shopmyshelf.us/forever35. You can sign up for the newsletter at forever35podcast.com/newsletter, but just a reminder, newsletter is going on hiatus for July while Kate and I are on Vacay.
Kate: So is Instagram. Yes, yes, yes.
Doree: Um,
Kate: So are we Doree? So are we,
Doree: So are we, if you want to reach us, you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. And you can email us forever five podcast, gmail.com.
Kate: Don't hesitate to text or call or email us while we are on vacation, because we will be looking at that later.
Doree: Uh, we will be, yes.
Kate: We love to hear from you, even if, you know, even if we're taking the week off, it's always a treat to come back to some messages.
Doree: It always
Kate: Is.
Doree: It always is.
Kate: But the, the fun thing is that you and I are both traveling, which I mean, it always presents itself as a challenge. Doesn't it like even it does, even if you're traveling alone and you have it down, there's always something.
Doree: Yep. There's always something,
Kate: Kate, how are
Doree: You doing what traveling?
Kate: Okay. Well, I am, uh, I'm gonna be doing, uh, a bit of it this summer and, um, I just actually made up a new travel hack, literally 10 minutes before sitting down to talk to you today.
Doree: Wow,
Kate: Here's the deal? Um, I'm my daughter is traveling and she's gonna be away for a little bit this summer. And this is my daughter who used now uses the very specific do hair shampoo and conditioner because she's got very thick, wavy hair, right? And so while she's away, we, I was like, let's make sure you have your special conditioner, but it comes, it's almost like a jar of peanut butter. Like it's not, it comes in jar. Now I am determined to travel on this trip without, um, checking bags. I don't want 'em to get lost. I just like, I just don't wanna deal. I don't wanna deal with checking it bag, but this conditioner is eight ounces of conditioner in a jar. And you know, TSA is gonna come at me. If I come on that plane with an eight ounce jar of conditioner, they'll find it. They always do. Oh,
Doree: They, they, a hundred percent will.
Kate: So I bought these, you know, TSA approved, little rubber shampoo, travel bottles. And I was like, we'll just, you know, we'll move all the shampoo and conditioner into these bottles, which are the right size. It's ridiculous song and dance don't even get me started, but we're just gonna do it. Well, the condition the shampoo went in, okay. From the bottle, the conditioner, because it's in a jar. I, I, I realized way too late. I was like, how are we gonna get this? Like goy thick consistency condition? It's the thick Doree. I'm, I'm serious. When I say it is a nut butter level consistency, how am I gonna get a nut, a nut butter into this tiny jar, tiny, you know, mushy jar. Well, I dug around in my baking cabinet and I found, I don't know what these things are called because I don't bake, but they are like the little metal things you use for frosting with a, with a pointy plastic bag. I'm sure these have
Doree: The yes, yes, yes.
Kate: You know what I'm talking about, right?
Doree: Yes, I do. It's a, I think it's pastry bag.
Kate: Okay. A pastry bag, let's say. And then the pointy thing that you make designs with. Okay. Well, I I'm loving
Doree: This, this so far.
Kate: I busted those out and I S scooped the jar of conditioner into that pastry bag. And I used that pastry bag and that little metal thing to squirt this thick ass condition are into this travel bottle. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I felt like a fucking genius.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Because, you know, you're always, when you're always trying to move products from a bigger bottle to a little bottle, they spill, and then you're like, your hands are covered in shampoo. So this is my new travel hack. If you have to flag a tiny bottle with like an UN wheel, like a challenging product, get a pastry bag and a little pointy pastry cap, sporty thing.
Doree: Okay. This is kind of genius.
Kate: It was, I felt literally my daughter and I were like, look at us because we had tried spooning it in. And it was like, oh, this is, this is bad. We're not, we're not gonna be able to spoon this in with the one baby spoon. I have left into this tiny bottle. So, right. I felt pretty proud of myself. That's my new travel hack. I didn't, I made it up. I didn't read it anywhere. I didn't find it on buzzfeed.com. I made it up. Maybe, maybe it's already out there in the world, but I felt pretty proud of myself, Kate. Yep.
Doree: You are. You are, you are an influencer.
Kate: I am right. I should be on TikTok with all the other Mormon mom bloggers and just influencing like crazy with my one hack.
Doree: Yes, exactly. It's a life tip. Um, you know, I am actually, I would like to solicit some life tips from our listeners or from you.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: You know, I do one of the, I would say one of the kind of sneaky benefits about being a quote unquote older mom is that most of your peers have older kids and they can, first of all, they give me, they gimme so many hand downs
Kate: Is a big bonus.
Doree: Um, there's always like a, like a sounding board for any of my questions. It's really helpful. I will say anyway. Um, Kate, I will soon be traveling across the country with a three year old, my three year old.
Kate: <laugh> not a random three year
Doree: Old. No, a random three year old. Now we ever, since our disaster's trip last summer, we've we've, we've made some modifications.
Kate: <laugh> okay. And if we can just refresh everyone's memory, this is when your plane, what changed course in the air and went to Buffalo and then you fell on your son's throw up.
Doree: Okay. We, I think it was Rochester, first of all. Okay. Sorry. Second of all. Yeah, there was a leak in the control tower at JFK. So they had grounded all flights and <laugh> rerouted everyone. And we were in the Rochester airport for like four or five hours. And there was just like a cascade failure of like various other things that went wrong. Like the plane was too big for the airport, so they couldn't pull all the way up to the gate. So they had to stop like close to the gate, but they couldn't like their jet way did not connect to our airplane. So we had to get on this. Like they, and they, or like maybe it did. And they overshot, I don't, there was something where we all had to get on this, like hydraulic lift bus thing to travel 10 feet to the gate after we had been on the plane for like an extra hour or something. And, um, Henry was like losing it. Understandably.
Kate: Yeah, I would be too.
Doree: Anyway. Yes. Then we, we like booked it to five guys, which was like one of the only places open in the wing of the Rochester airport, where we were, and Henry is like standing on a chair and I'm like, oh, like, let's be careful that he doesn't fall. And then literally I turned my back for half a second and he crashed to the ground.
Kate: Oh God.
Doree: And I was just the shock of it all. And he had just eaten and he threw up all over me now, thankfully, I had packed a change of clothes, although I guess I did miss my chance to get like a Rochester t-shirt <laugh> in the airport. You
Kate: Know, that's always my dream that you're gonna be like really cold on vacation and you won't have a sweatshirt, so you'll have to buy the local tourist sweatshirt.
Doree: Totally. Um, and then, and then I was holding Henry who was still pretty hysterical. Matt went to get some napkins to try to wipe up the throw up. And then I slipped and fell on Henry's puke whilst holding Henry. It was, it was like, it was like, what the fuck else can go wrong? Like honestly, what else can go wrong? Oh my gosh. I mean, I guess there's, I never get this. There's always more that can go wrong as I learned, but like, of course, but that was really, that was like pretty up there. Anyway, we, you know, obviously stuff like that is out of our control. Like I do not have control over the weather as much as I would like to, um, or, you know, pilot shortages or any of the various horrible things that I've been reading about. <laugh> what
Kate: Traveling is. I know right now I'm so nervous. I
Doree: Know. Um, so I'm trying not to like, let, I'm trying not to get ahead of myself without anxiety, you know? Cause like there's nothing I can do about it right now. As of today, my flight is still going, so I don't know. We'll see. Um, but I was wondering if people had any thoughts on traveling with a three year old, we are gonna be bringing a car seat onto the plane. Um, so he will be like somewhat contained and we are planning on downloading probably every episode of Mickey mouse's clubhouse onto an iPad. Um, and he does, he will watch stuff on the plane. So like there that is, you know, that's okay. But I'm just wondering if there's like other stuff or if there's like particular COVID stuff that I should be mindful of or, you know, I don't know. I don't know. It just, just throwing it out there would love any and all thoughts.
Kate: Well, here's what I used to do when my kids were a bit younger, don't do it as much anymore because they are easily just fully entertained by watching an iPad. Like they'll download their own TV shows and watch them. But when they were younger, let's say under seven. And in addition to the iPad, I mean, one, I would say if, if Henry is at all interested, I mean, you could just download them to have, look for like toddler friendly iPad games, because there are a bunch and that might engage him in a way that a TV show would not. And they're not like, you know, they're not like there there's a lot of educational ones. If you wanna go that route. Um,
Doree: Now that you mention it, I had once downloaded con academy, I think.
Kate: Oh, con academy kids.
Doree: Yeah. Khan academy kids, um, out of desperation when like we didn't have childcare and it was like too hot to go outside. I don't remember exactly what the circumstances were, but yeah, we did download it and he did enjoy that. So that's a great idea.
Kate: I remember my kids.
Doree: Can you use it offline? No, right.
Kate: Yes. There you, well, you have to check which, um, like double check. So check everything before you go that you download. I mean, my kids had a game where it was literally like a screen would come up and it'd be all different animals and you would just like tap the animal and it would make the animal sound and this entertains them. I vaguely remember this game. So that's one thing I do. Another thing I do is I make sure I have extra snacks. Like I pack double what I think a child could eat and I pack, like I try to pack like an exciting snack. Like I'll, there's always like a treat that they might not normally have or just something in there to be like, Ooh, we're on a plane and we get this thing. Then I also like to either go to like the dollar store or the like bins, right. When you walk into a target where everything's like one to $3 or even just the regular kind of kid toy section and get some fun, new toys and activities that they've never seen before.
Doree: Mm-hmm,
Kate: <affirmative> like a new now I know, again, every child is different. Every child's a different age, but like some sort of coloring or activity book, or even like a pad of paper and big ass crayons. And they can just like, even if it entertains them for two minutes.
Doree: Yeah, totally.
Kate: You have it. Um, and the dollar store and that like walk-in target section is great for just, you know, toys. That's okay. If they don't make it back home.
Doree: Mm, great call.
Kate: Great
Doree: Call. Yep.
Kate: And then, uh, uh, then maybe a book if they have, or a new book, I like to put a new book in, or if they have a book that they'll look at for like five hours,
Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Kate: I think that's my, that's my list. Some Dramamine, like, obviously you handle that, but some Dramamine cuz my kids always get a little, my kids puke on planes.
Doree: I mean, knock on wood. Henry has never puked on a plane. He's just puked at a five guys in the Rochester airport. <laugh>
Kate: Yeah, just plane adjacent. But
Doree: Yeah, playing adjacent.
Kate: I have just like a vivid memory of my flying alone with my two kids. And they were both under like five years old and my youngest was probably two and a half and she like fell asleep. Right. As we landed. And then literally as the plane was deboarding I forget the word. She just bared everywhere. And I had to like, oh God. Oh, it was just like, and I was alone and I had two car seats. It was just, it's not easy traveling with young children. It's
Doree: Really hard. No, it's not. I, you know, he is potty trained now, which I'm like, is this better? Or, or worse? Like, I feel like there's high probability of an accident. Um, but I guess that just is what it is. Bring I'll bring many changes of clothes.
Kate: Yeah. Bring many little undies.
Doree: Okay. I'll bring many little undies
Kate: And in terms of COVID stuff, you know, I think it's just the usual. Keep that wear a good mask. Keep that on as much as you can wipe everything down.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Wash your hands. Someone told me you should blast the air, the air on your face. Yeah. But also like if you don't blast the air on your face, it's okay. You know, you can do everything possible and you could still get COVID or you could do nothing and not get COVID. It's like who the F knows at this point.
Doree: I know. I know. Exactly. So. All right. Well, Kate, that was super helpful. See, this is what
Kate: Really talking about. Good.
Doree: Do you have any other hot parenting tips that I should know? Just while we're, while we're talking.
Kate: I mean, I never got these, but I did have friends who got their kids suitcases that were also scooters and they would like scoot through the airport. Have you ever seen those?
Doree: No.
Kate: What? Yeah. Yeah. Scooter suitcases. Yeah. So that's how they would get their kid around. I, I, I think I was never willing to pay the amount that the scooter suitcase cost, but a tiny suit, like anything that a kid could possibly carry. Let me make sure I'm not making this up. Yeah. Scooter suitcase for kids. Yep. <laugh> it's literally a suitcase that folds out into a scooter.
Doree: Wow. They have thought of everything.
Kate: I mean, yeah. If you're willing to spend the money, you can really
Doree: Well, actually that does, that is, that does raise another question that I would like to throw out to you and the listeners who might have experience with this. I was considering not the scooter suitcase, although I am intrigued, I was considering getting Henry, uh, a rolling backpack and having him be in charge of his own backpack. And I'm wondering if that is a good idea or if I'm just going to end up carrying it.
Kate: I think it really depends on your child. Yeah. And there's no way to know because I know who knows what kind of meltdown your kid's gonna be.
Doree: Well, and also who knows what kind of mood he's gonna be in at five 30 in the morning?
Kate: Oh God. Yeah. Yeah.
Doree: I mean, he's, he's a big Henry doit person. <laugh> like, he does like to do everything himself. And I think he would like giving him that task of like being in charge of his own suitcase, I think would be like very exciting for him. But I do worry about his like overall mood <laugh> yeah. So his
Kate: Patience against like, yeah. Henry not gonna do it right now. Like come on. Yeah. It's 6:00 AM Henry.
Doree: Yeah, exactly. So I, I think, I think if I do that, I just have to like be prepared for the inevitable mama carry,
Kate: Right. That you might be yeah. You might be rolling a yes. Tiny suitcase around.
Doree: Yes, exactly. All
Kate: Right. Well listen, good luck. Because it's it's seems very, uh, scary out there right now with all these endless flight cancellations and like all this stuff, it just feels
Doree: Like, like bags getting lost bag. Like, did you see those pictures of Heathrow?
Kate: No.
Doree: Oh my God. There was like this huge breakdown in their baggage handling. And like there, there are these pictures on social media of just like a whole baggage claim area just filled with suitcases, like that were separated from their owners because everything like all the systems just like broke down <laugh>
Kate: This is why this is why I'm dragging that carryon on. I know.
Doree: I just, I, I don't think we can do all carry-ons given our, you know, small child.
Kate: No, I know this is when and I love checking a bag, checking a bag feels luxurious and it makes everything so much easier. I am not opposed to a bag check.
Doree: I know ever,
Kate: But God is it as it's kind of challenging. All of it is so challenging right now.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Hmm. Good luck story.
Doree: Thank you. I mean, it goes without saying that like, I'm just glad I'm able to travel right now.
Kate: Indeed.
Doree: I'm grateful that I am able to go and see family that said the logistics are like a little stressful <laugh>
Kate: Yeah. A hundred percent. I see you. I totally see you
Doree: So well, thank you for seeing me, Kate. I appreciate you. I appreciate our listeners. Well,
Kate: Doree, should we introduce today's guest to everyone out there listening?
Doree: We definitely should.
Kate: This is a fun one. Everybody it's Cameron Esposito. Oh yeah. Yay. That's right. Yeah, baby. Right. Cameron Esposito is a Los Angeles based standup comic actor and writer. Cameron has appeared on a no big deal. NBC CBS comedy, central TBS, I F C cartoon network and HBO, Canada and indie films Sundance south by Southwest film festivals in big budget features for nationwide release and accommodate a music of music festivals. Worldwide Cameron's podcast query features interviews with L G B Q plus luminaries, including the likes of Roxy gay, Trixie Mattel, Evan, Rachel Wood, Lena wait, and Tegan and Sarah Quinn. Karen is also the co Karen Cameron is also the co-creator and co-star of take my wife, which you know, got rave reviews and her most recent special rape jokes raised almost a hundred thousand dollars for rain. Her first book save yourself is out. You can get it anywhere. You get books. And look, this was a dream come true. So yes.
Doree: Well, Cameron, we are so excited to have you on forever 35. Welcome to the show.
Cameron: Thank you so much
Kate: Before we get into it. I have to ask you as a comic. I mean, you obviously talk about the many challenges of life and a community and society, but like is the pressure to EV to have to find the humor in all of it. Is it ever like, do you ever reach a point where you're just like, I fucking can't there's nothing funny about this or do you always have a way in?
Cameron: Hmm, that's a good question. I mean, I've definitely been processing something and just had it not be funny yet, which is like a true bummer. I just mean in terms of like, you know, I think something is very funny and then an audience disagrees, obviously they're wrong. Um, but this a different time that this is actually this that's, that's like part of it, right? Sometimes things work, sometimes things don't I think to do this job, you kind of have to be somebody who likes it when things don't work, like who likes it when things are hard. Because if, if I like want, if I, if I was satisfied ever with success, then I would just stop doing it. You'd stop when you had a good set. But the thing is, is like, when you have a good set, then you're like, I can't wait to do that again.
Cameron: Then when you have a bad set, you're like, I can't wait to do that again. I mean, it's like a, an, an addictive process, but, um, actually the biggest betrayal I've ever felt from standup is that when I was like going through a divorce and I was super duper sad, I was funny. And that actually felt worse. Cause I was like, don't you laugh at me? You know? Like it just felt like, yeah. Um, I think I felt frustrated with myself sort of overusing this coping mechanism when it might have been healthier to do other things. So then I made some behavioral changes after I realized that,
Doree: Oh, that's really interesting that like <laugh> you almost were using standup as a crutch to process your divorce
Cameron: Instead. I think all comics. Yeah. You ha you know, have an overdeveloped sense of humor from using it as a way of processing the world. And so I think sometimes when things are hard, that can be really amazing. You can be like, oh my God, thank I have this thing. Um, but that's the first time I've ever been like, no, like <laugh> let me hold onto the cause I just felt so bad. I wanted to feel bad. You know, like I actually wanted to have the opportunity to have to, um, experience negative feelings as opposed to joking around
Doree: One thing. One other thing you just said really kind of pinged for me, which is like how standups and you in particular kind of navigate rejection, because like you said, like sometimes you have these jokes that to you are really funny and then the audience, it just like is like doesn't land for whatever reason, but you just have to kind of keep going. And like, as someone who like, to me, that that is like the, that feels very scary, right? Like kind of being up there and being judged constantly. And you know, how do you kind of go on? Um, and so I'm wondering if you could speak to that a little bit, like how you sort of have trained yourself to deal with all this rejection, assuming that you have not, I'm not saying that like
Cameron: Yeah, no, totally.
Doree: You know what I'm trying to say? Yeah, yeah,
Cameron: Of course. Yeah. That I was, I was, um, I was smiling out of recognition, not out of, uh, feeling any judgment. No. Um, well, so, you know, every character asset is also a defect, right? Like having a really good sense of humor. Like I was just saying, it's like, okay, awesome. I survived all those things. And then the other side of it is like a discomfort with negative feelings and, and like wallowing for instance is like not something that comes easy, but I think that that's, there's a place in time for wallowing. Um, so anyway, some of what you're talking about about dealing with rejection is like a version of codependency and looking to the other, um, that I've been trying to heal in myself. So the negative side of that is like, not feeling like I'm good enough to just make my own decisions.
Cameron: Sometimes, sometimes I don't know if I like things. I'm like the kind of person that's like, what do you want for dinner? Oh yes. The other side of that is, um, so I kind of think I always need to improve and something's like wrong with me. That's like, that's the negative. But the positive side of that is it's very easy for me to take rejection and turn it into fuel. Because if you're somebody who thinks since I'm somebody who thinks that something's like wrong with me, then rejection is actually like kind of the best gift you can give me, then I'm, I'll get better. Like I will improve at this skill or something, but I have to make sure that I don't go too far into trying to change myself, to make other people happy or trying to get my, all of my needs met emotionally and spiritually from like the feeling of acceptance that comes with a successful set or somebody wanting to sleep with me or, you know, like any, any external validation.
Doree: Right. Because tho that those highs can also be addictive.
Cameron: Yeah, exactly. Right. So there, so again, like UN unchecked, then life is only about what other people can give you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> anyway, I'm a very serious person. Every, every answer is so serious.
Doree: I feel like we just like jumped right in with these.
Kate: I know
Cameron: That's me around. I don't fuck around. I really do not.
Kate: I, I appreciate it so much though, because I think like this has also been such a weird time of reflection on our relationships with people when like people were kind of taken away from us in many ways in the pandemic, both literally and figuratively, like just this, like how do I rely on outsiders feeding me and feeding my ego and my self purpose and all that. I mean, I think a lot of us have had time to reflect on that and it has felt terrifying
Cameron: To, I mean, I would also say that it, you know, social media is like baking that into everybody's life regardless of what anybody's job is in a different way. I mean, certainly like maybe you get that from your boss or from your partner, but I just think it's like so baked into life in 2022, um, like did something even happen if people aren't applauding you for it? I think that thing <laugh> is the root of standup <laugh> so, so it's yeah. Anyway,
Kate: Well, you know, we, we normally kick off our interviews by asking every guest about a self-care practice that they have in their lives. And I, we would love to hear yours regardless, but now I'm even more excited because it sounds like you've been doing a lot of reflecting and taking care of yourself. So I would love, love to hear if you have a self care practice that resonates with you.
Cameron: Yes, totally. Um, so I have been really over the last couple years working on, um, my body and trying to be more diligent about, um, like strength. Cause I was, I've been on the road for so long. I started to have all this chronic pain and I was going to the chiropractor and I was doing a zillion things, but I wasn't like my main for forms of exercise were hiking and walking. And like, those things kind of don't like build any strength. Um, so anyway, I didn't do this today and I'm honestly losing it, but I usually start my day, um, with, uh, meditation and pushups, sit ups and like little butt raises. I do 200 of each of those. I do 15 minutes of yoga and I often try to run a mile. That's the, that's the day, the way I start the day. So it's 200 meditation,
Doree: Sit pushups and, but raises 200 pushups.
Cameron: Yeah.
Kate: Ooh.
Cameron: And I, and I anyway, but it's a, and then I might do something else physical in the day, like go for a run. I have a running partner or I do like ballet classes. I swim. And I'm saying all this physical stuff, because it, anyway, it's really, it's like a move, a moving meditation for me. And I never took, I never would take any like group classes, group fitness classes. It was like my biggest fear. I didn't want people to see me working out. I like never, would've had a running partner. I like run five K's in like yoga pants, just like any suburban white woman, which is not a <laugh>, uh, a space where I previously felt any, um, welcomeness. Like I, I said, I like, I was taking myself out of that group. Like I was like, I can't do, I can't be around other people. Um, I felt like I was like the wrong gender for fitness, but anyway, this is something I've been moving into and it's massively improving my self image, my pain, and also my happiness.
Kate: How did you like move forward in like making yourself get into that space? Like when did you start getting comfortable? Not just like with first of all, what a, what a great daily practice meditation into calisthenics into
Cameron: CALS.
Kate: Right. That's the best word. And then like how, how did you kind of, is it something that came with age? Was it something that came with your own self acceptance or were you just like, fuck it, I'm here.
Cameron: You know, I mean, not to like go back to this multiple times, but I've had two times in my life where like everything totally stopped. And the first time was when I came out, I like lost all of my, I lost my faith. I lost my, all of my friends and my family for a period of time, although that changed. Um, and the second time is when I got divorced, because both times it was like, it was a complete reset. Like all of the friends that I had, the place that I lived, the, the, the things I thought would happen in my future. Like all of those things changed. And so the first time when I, when I came out is like, when I started doing actually I, I started doing comedy around that same time. Um, and then, you know, launched into that part of my life.
Cameron: And then when I, when I had this divorce, it was like a pretty, it was pretty sudden and pretty wild experience. And it like just shook me out of all of my, um, habits. So like I had been using this coping skill from my childhood, took it to like the end of it, like made stand up profession, moved to LA, like all that stuff. Then after my marriage ended, I, I, this is what was like the catalyst for, for new openness, cuz I just was like willing to try anything. I felt so bad and I had to like totally rebuild. Um, so again, it's like, I don't know if I'm somebody who I ever thought would like have the confidence to pursue comedy as a job, but it's just like, I was in the lowest of the low. And so I was just like help anything.
Cameron: And then that's when I found comedy and similarly, um, I mean it was like, I was, I was like, I was so depressed and this woman who I knew from Chicago, from comedy, but hadn't been close with ever ran past me on the street and I stopped her and I was like, Emily, could I run with you sometime? And she was like, I don't like to run with people. And I was like, great, I don't wanna talk to anybody. <laugh> she was like, I wanna wear my AirPods. I was like, perfect. Me too. And she was, and I was also like, and I'm also I'm in, not in good shape. And she was like, okay. So we started running together first. We would run like a block. This was years ago. Now we run, we run once a week together and we run five Ks together and we're really close friends.
Cameron: And usually when we walk to warm up, we'd take our headphones out and actually talk to each other. But, um, it all just came from like that level of willingness, like the level of willingness to be like help just stopping somebody on the street, you know? Um, cause I like routine, you know, and if I can find something that makes me feel comfy, I'll stay there. You know? So this is something that I can have a lot of gratitude for in those two major life stops is that like it, they massively accelerated my like growth and ability to, to try things.
Doree: Well, and it's something like, I've been thinking a lot about community in the, in the wake of the nightmare that is this country <laugh>
Cameron: In the wake of this country. Cause in
Doree: The wakes over this country. Um, yeah, no, I mean, and the pandemic, just everything and you know, I think one of the things that I'm trying to do in my life is like have more of those I R L interactions with people, um, and build that kind of community. So that's kind of what I hear when you talk about having this running routine and this running partner who like you weren't, you didn't really know. Um, but you've like built this little kind of micro community with her.
Cameron: Yeah. Actually I have, I have pretty amazing community right now. Um, which is again, shocking to me because it all, it was, it was like baby steps. Um, I started trying to develop closer friendships. Um, a few years ago after a lot of years just spent focused like so hard on work. I realized that I only had coworkers. Like I didn't really have friends. I, I thought because my job is a silly goof around job. I thought that those were my friends, but they're not my friends. They're just like, and I, and no, like no shade intended. They're just, it's just, they're not my friends. They're my coworkers. And so I was just spending all of my time in like green rooms with people fucking around and doing bits. And it just was like very lonely, cuz that's actually nothing. Like, it's fine for work, but it's not like, it wasn't like feeding my self-esteem and my soul and like getting me anywhere.
Cameron: And so, um, in terms of growth. So anyway, I started working on friendships and um, you know, like asking people for coffee and walks, lots of, lots of walks and, and then it like, you know, led to a place where the very beginning of the pandemic, uh, one of these friends that I'd been like pursuing as a friend, uh, started a, this like zoom. We have a, we have lunch, this group of women. I have lunch on Tuesdays and Fridays, every Tuesday, Friday on zoom. I've been doing it for three years. Um, so yeah, it's like, anyway, that's, that's what I feel like has been a big lesson in my life is it's like make a few teeny changes. And then like three years later, you're like, this is my PE these are my people. I have lunch with twice a week. Like I just ever, yeah. I never thought that would even be something that could be in my life. Not usually a joiner,
Kate: Like, well, the, the, the small, I feel like sometimes when we get in our head, like, holy shit, my life is not like, this is not going the way I want it to where I'm not fulfilled here. And, or at least this is what I do. And then it's like drastic changes must be, must be made rather than like, like you're saying you made a small shift, you said yes to something. And now here you are years later and it's become a really valuable routine for you. And that's just, that's necessary for many of us to hear.
Cameron: Yeah. I, I also need to hear it. <laugh> even though, even though I'm saying it, I'm like, listen, listen to camera.
Doree: Uh,
Kate: Okay, well let's take a quick break and we' be right back. All right. We are back.
Doree: Karen, how has it been kind of getting back into the world of live, stand up?
Cameron: Oh, that's a good question.
Doree: Yeah. I wanna hear about this.
Cameron: Um, it's been good. You know, I, I, well, first, first it was harrowing. I don't know what I was doing. I like started, I went on a, I went on like a mini tour last fall, and that was idiocy. Like, it just <laugh>. I just felt like everybody was like, it was like a, a theater. If you're performing in a theater, which I sometimes perform at your, the stage is typically a little bit higher. You could be a little further away from people. And so I was performing most. I was performing from home for like years, and then I was performing at a theater in LA and I think I've like, forgot what standup clubs are like. And then I was suddenly in clubs, the stage is low and the audience is usually like right at you that's that's like how laughs best build. And I just felt like I was screaming into everybody's mouths and they were laughing into mine. And I was like, this is not, the CDC did not say to do this. Oh my. You know? And
Cameron: Um, it felt like dangerous and insane. Like it just felt like, right. Yeah. Look, I know I'm really good at my job, but like, this is not worth it for any of us. And so I decided to take another break and I'm going back out soon, but I've been performing mostly in LA. And um, I think that maybe it's like, I don't know. I feel like, so I had COVID maybe it's that maybe it's like actually having it and recovering, maybe it's like, I'm also extremely vaccinated. I try to pick places where it's not like that such face to face interaction. Cause I don't think that's like the best, uh, for even an audience. Um, but maybe it's just like a willingness to take what feels like necessary risk given that this is my job, you know? Um,
Doree: Do you think audiences have changed
Speaker 4: <laugh>
Cameron: Um, for a minute people felt so jazzed all the time. I think people still do feel jazzed. Um, and that's very cool, but I also think that I don't know as humans, we can get like jaded pretty quickly. Yeah. Like I, I don't, I don't so feel like the audiences are like, we can't believe we're here anymore. I feel like we're a little bit past that.
Kate: I went back and watched one of your jokes that I have loved, which is your chunks, jokes about periods. And I was surprised that it was, I went, I was like, oh, I love this joke. I'm gonna go watch it. And it was from you, it was posted on YouTube in 2015. And I was like, but this is still, this is still relevant. This joke still
Cameron: Hits. It's like grainy, not even a modern camera. Cause it's like not even a modern camera. It's like thinking about,
Kate: Yeah, it was on a digital camera. Yeah. Uh, but I, I, I loved revisiting it cuz it felt like, like Jesus Christ, like this holds up more than many things from seven years ago, like this is still applicable and necessary watching and still very funny. I wanted to know what it feels like for you to go back and revisit old stuff. Old work, especially in, in the, in the ways in which things have changed societally since 2015, um, you know, just in the wake of row and how it still feels like many people don't understand reproductive justice or even the reproductive system listening to you talk, explaining what actually happens when people menstruate was very empowering
Cameron: <laugh> and
Kate: It still is
Cameron: <laugh>. Thank you. Yeah. I love that joke. Um, and actually one of the best things that I ever got to do was so it's a joke that's like viscerally describing, um, what a period is like in that it's like not, um, clean blue liquid that goes onto max pad on the television, but like that chunks of your body come out and I got to do that joke for you could, I think you could probably find this for, it was on comedy central. I got to record it for comedy central and at the taping, they were like, do you need anything special for your set? And I was like, can you get 200 jelly, strawberry jelly donuts? Cause that's how many people were gonna be in the audience. And so in the, during the taping, like, as I was about to do this joke, I paused, I was, I pretended like we were not filming for a second.
Cameron: And I was like, are there any snacks? People look hungry anyway, pass out 200 jelly donuts. People were eating strawberry jelly donuts. And then I started doing this set about periods being like bearing goop, varying goofy and visceral. Oh my God. And strawberry. And like a, like a anyway. So that was one of my most fun things I've ever gotten to do. But, um, I don't know. I think, I think your question about, I feel like, yes, uh, I'm happy to find out that I've actually said things in the past that I still agree with. And I have been, I think it is frustrating to look back at my own material that's like about unfettered access to guns or that's about whether or not planned parenthood is a good and useful organization. And just to find out that those things are still really relevant. But, um, I think another thing I just forget is that I've been doing this for a while.
Cameron: Sometimes I forget that like I've had a bunch of, I've had a bunch of younger comics recently tell me that they like listened to me like Meg Stalter. I did her show at, at Largo here in love her. And she was like, oh, I used to listen to your podcast. And it's like, why? One of the reasons I thought I could do this and I, my friend I add, we told me that just last night and I was like, oh no, I've long inspired people who are like, not, not just breaking out. Meg's doing great. She's she's she's broke. Yeah,
Kate: Yeah, yeah.
Cameron: Been around for a minute, I guess,
Kate: Hitting that, uh, hitting that sweet spot of middle aged. You're what like 4 30, 9 40
Cameron: I'm 40
Kate: 40. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird when you realize like, oh, I'm, I'm looking down on the people coming up. Like they it's. Yeah. It's weird. It's weird fucking place to be.
Doree: I mean, well, something I was thinking about is like, and correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I think you are like, you're one of the only comics kind of, of, of our generation, because we're all in our forties who you were, you were out from the beginning. Um, and you know, it's so like now it's like, that's not even no one, not that no one cares, but it's just like, no one thinks twice about saying like, oh, I'm queer. And, but at the time, you know, almost 20 years ago that that was kind of pretty revolutionary. Um, and I was just, I was wondering if you could kind of speak to how you feel like things have changed for people who are queer in standup and what it was like for you in those early days, um, as a queer person doing standup,
Cameron: Right. So there are generations you're right. You know, like there are generations older than me who folks got famous and then came out. Right. So like Rosie or Ellen or Wanda Sykes, um, then there were some folks who were out, but they didn't hit to that level. Um, at that like, well, I mean, somebody like Margaret Cho wasn't like she was out, but her sexuality wasn't like the first thing that she was talking about, um, when she was first starting. Um, but like Leah DeLaria has been out forever and was like getting arrested on the street for holding somebody's hand. Um, at a time when like sodomy laws would've been in place mm-hmm <affirmative>, but didn't really reach a level of like, you know, uh, outside of the comedy world recognition until she was on oranges, the new black, which is like, however, that many like 40 years into her career or something like that.
Cameron: Right. Like a long time. Um, so that existed. And then there are, there's this, like you're saying this there's this generation of folks that younger than me that like, it's just, so it is so wild. Um, for me there wasn't really anybody that I knew of who was older than me that started out. Like, I didn't know anybody. Yeah. I like cuz I wasn't really aware of Leah. Um, and I was a fan of Ts, but TIG didn't really talk about sexuality cuz there's stuff. Cuz TIG stuff was like more, um, I don't know, like nonsensical and um, yeah, so I mean, I, I really, it was like that thing of it was a wild west. I mean, people wanted me to stop talking about being gay. I got that feedback all the time. Very strange feedback to receive since, oh boy, all the street people are talking about being straight.
Cameron: It's just like dating love sex. Those are some of the biggest topics in standup. So I only know how to write from a queer perspective. Cause it is the only right life experience I've had. Um, but yeah, I mean it was pretty, it was rough. Like other comics did not want me to do standup. Um, yeah. I mean there were also no women and there were certainly no like out non-binary folks. Um, so it was like straight dudes were, were really who I came up around only straight dudes. Right. And most of them white. So yeah. Um, what it was like was I think I have like a level of anger and damage around going through that, that like I don't, you know, I I'm, I'm just gonna have to work through it on my own, cuz it's not gonna be solved by anybody else. But I think for a long time, I didn't even realize that I was angry. Um, because there was also outside of standup, it wasn't different. So that's how I was treated everywhere. Right. And people were scared of me or angry at me. It was a really life was really hard and it still is sometimes. Um, but I think different now and that isn't long that long ago, you know, but people who are 35 or 30, their orientation to this is so different than mine than ours. Yeah.
Kate: And it's not that much time. That's what really blows my mind. There wasn't much time that has lapsed, but it's so, but it can be so different. Not always, but it can be
Cameron: Well it's I think maybe just the best way to frame it is that it is the quickest moving. It's the quickest civil rights movement in yes. Us history. So it doesn't even matter if it's like, are people on a one to one basis always treating everybody sweetly is Texas making like no fucked up laws. Like no, sometimes people are still a Dick to you and Texas is still making fucked up laws, but there has, there's been no civil rights movement that went at this speeds. So like we don't even have a framework for understanding. And by the way, that also sucks. Right? Like, like this is, we should right. Should happen this quickly. But um, we don't really have a framework for understanding like what that does to people when things change that quickly. Um, because I think it's like a lot to adjust to being like in a legal person and then yeah. Not being in a legal person.
Doree: Yeah. I was reading an interview that you did where you pointed out that you graduated college in 2004, which was when Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage and that someone who had graduated like the year before or even the year after like had a totally different experience of that than you did. Yes.
Cameron: So wild, right? Yeah. Yeah. I I, the first week of my graduation, Massachusetts legal, same sex marriage. And I became, and I got my first job working professionally in comedy. And so I like entered adulthood and I entered my professional life as somebody with that. Right. Which yeah, like, like you're saying which, which, um, would've been totally different if it had just been one year prior and um, that's wild <laugh>
Kate: Yes. That's that's wild.
Doree: Wild.
Cameron: Yeah.
Doree: Oh, I'm like getting chills, like yeah.
Cameron: Yeah. It's big deal. And I still didn't have that. Right. When I went, then I moved back to Chicago and I like was, and then I didn't have that right in Chicago.
Kate: Right. Wow. Yeah. States's rights is a real whole fucked up thing about this country.
Cameron: Now I've been married twice. I'm trying to have as many marriages to like really make sure I Keep adding them up.
Kate: <laugh> well, um, in a complete change of gears, we wanna ask you about your skincare routine because that is at the heart of all the chit chatting we do on this podcast. And yeah,
Cameron: I'm aware,
Kate: We like to ask everybody, right. Do you have a skincare practice? Do you enjoy it? Are there products that you like or do you not give a shit?
Cameron: Oh my God. I gotta say, please, please don't tell me that. It looks like I don't give a shit. You know? I know that's not what you're saying, but I just mean, no,
Kate: It doesn't. You look amazing, but I'm also trying to God, we're striving to not like ever comment on anybody's appearance, whether positive, negative, or neutral. Right. But boy, do we want that? That's
Cameron: Actually a really good idea. Good point. Well,
Kate: But it's
Cameron: Hard's because the effect
Doree: It's really,
Kate: Hard's
Cameron: So hard. That's such a good point. I didn't even think of that. Thank you for telling me that that's really
Kate: Well, it's a conversation
Cameron: So enlightened. We
Kate: We've been having that this here because, and on our podcast with our listeners, because like sometimes you just wanna say to somebody like you look great, but like, we don't wanna do that. It's very confusing. It's
Cameron: Very right. Right, right. That's so helpful. Right. Good point. We're trying
Doree: To move into like you look happy.
Cameron: Ah <laugh>
Doree: Yeah.
Cameron: Well, and also maybe we should, it, people, people just might have skin that like they do have a really elaborate skin care routine or like one that they really put effort does not equal results.
Doree: Totally. Always
Cameron: Yes. In our, in the world that we live in because sometimes we're just dealing with different stuff. Uh, no, but for me, yes, I, um, I'm I sort of, I, yes, I care about, I care about this. <laugh> I care about this. I care about this. Um, the number one thing I would say that I do is go to the dermatologist, cannot recommend going to the dermatologist enough. I think that is your baseline. That is my baseline. Um, so I go to the dermatologist, um, and I use a couple different like acne products. Um, not currently a retinoid because I was scooping my eggs recently, somebody was, I was having my eggs scooped out and I didn't wanna take a retinoid because it can fuck with your bod. Yeah. Um, but I yeah. Have like a prescription acne creams. Um, and then I also use like things like keels, dark spot reducer.
Cameron: Um, because I want, I like to have an even skin tone. Some of this is because I don't usually wear a lot of makeup. And um, I think that we're so used to seeing people who wear makeup, that if you don't wear a lot of makeup, the normal variations in skin tone can look fucked up because we're like so trained to, and so much of my life is, um, being on stage or being in front of people that I just wanna look my best and feel my most comfortable without having to do something that like, like I'll wear like a tinted moisturizer or maybe I'll wear like a light, um, foundation, but like, I don't really wear makeup on stage. And um, yeah. So I do a lot of skincare that isn't really oh, sunscreen also. Yes. Cause we live in Los Angeles.
Doree: Yes. You know, it's funny. I feel like we don't have many people bring up that they go to the dermatologist regularly, but you're right. It's such a, are you serious? Yes. Yes. Oh, it's so important. It's so important. I agree. I love my dermatologist. <laugh> is that weird? <laugh> um, yeah. Cameron, it's been, it's been such a pleasure to get to talk to you. This was really a dream. Amazing. Thank you. Um, oh yeah. Where can our listeners find you? What, what would you like to promote? You find me
Kate: All your, your
Cameron: Podcasts. No, <laugh> I have a podcast that's called queery, but you know, right now what I'm doing the most that I'm like pretty jazzed about is, well, you should come see me if I'm in your town, but how would you know if I'm in your town? I'm like obsessed with Instagram right now. I've been doing reels lately and they're, I think they're extremely fun. And so you should follow me on Instagram and you should watch my reel cuz I I'm enjoying them.
Doree: And what is your Instagram? Cameron.
Cameron: Oh, it's just Cameron Esposito.
Doree: Great.
Cameron: You're gonna find
Doree: It. I'll follow you. Thank you again. Wait, do
Kate: I have one final? I have one final question.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Do, uh, as two people who grew up in the Metro west Boston area, you're a person who went to college in Boston. Well Newton, but in Boston, do you have a favorite place? Thing about Boston doesn't have to exist anymore? Could just be from when you were there in the early odds, but just to satisfy my Boston itch. Do you have a Boston thing that you still love?
Cameron: Yes. Honest TA.
Doree: Oh my gosh. Yes. So good. Yeah. Yeah. Yes also. Yep. Pinots pizza. Did you, did you eat?
Cameron: Oh yeah, totally. Totally.
Doree: Yeah. Me too. I'm from Brookline. So you know peanut. Oh my
Cameron: God. Yeah. Definitely very important. But aria was like, so weirdly steamed burrito, like I don't know what that, I don't know why that's anything, but they were so good. And it was also like the first time I had ever had cilantro and
Doree: I
Cameron: Love it anyway. Yeah. Changed my life.
Kate: Ugh. Thank you. Thank you for indulging indulging me because of
Cameron: Course
Kate: I love a Boston reference even though it's been many years.
Cameron: Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, I'm, I'm on a TV show right now that takes place in Boston and weirdly I'm the only person on the show who ever lived in Boston. So constantly I'm trying to work in Boston references, but no it's not working the same way that it worked with you two just now,
Kate: You know what? We're always here for a good Boston reference.
Doree: Cameron
Kate: Doree, Kate, you know, it's funny. We started, we started this episode talking about all this travel stuff and we both had the intention last week of not trying to get overwhelmed with all the like pre vacation work and logistics.
Doree: You know, one thing that we have not mentioned is that I think you and I both have, we have a similar approach to these two weeks where we are cramming a lot of stuff in like that. Every time I start feeling kind of overwhelmed about all the recording that we're doing packed into a very few days is I just keep telling myself July off, July off July off
Kate: <laugh> well, you said that to me. And I was like, oh yes, I'm gonna adopt this mantra because the last two weeks of June are incredibly busy, stressful for me. And I like, I just there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
Doree: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Kate: And do you know what I did? Do I, someone asked me like about scheduling something in July and I went over into my calendar in July and it was like, so blissfully,
Doree: I deleted all the, I was like, yeah, I deleted all the recordings. <laugh> yes.
Kate: We're gonna make this happen. Yeah. We're our own bosses. And we are gonna give ourself this month.
Doree: Yes. I know. I'm really, I'm really excited. So yeah, here we go.
Kate: Do you have an intention for this coming week?
Doree: I mean, what I was also gonna say is that I think in some ways my intention last week was a little premature.
Kate: Mm. Like it's ongoing.
Doree: It's ongoing. Yeah. So I think I need to like extend this intention <laugh> by another week because now I think, I think the last, I think last week I was really focused on like work pre madness and now I'm kind of like, oh, logistics.
Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative> you have to get all this stuff done kind of at the same time.
Doree: Yes. And there's just, yeah. There's so there's a lot of moving parts and guess who's in charge of them.
Kate: I'm gonna go out and a limb, guess that it's you?
Doree: Yep. Good old mom. Mom's in charge of them.
Kate: Oh, what a surprise?
Doree: What a shocker. Um, what about you, Kate?
Kate: So I have an interesting intention this week. This actually comes from a listener where I was, I've been talking about how I felt really kind of down lately and a listener reshot was like, are you still taking melatonin? Because that has contributed to me feeling really kind of depressed. Wow. I was like, I am still taking melatonin. And I'm also taking, I take these like magnesium sleeping things at night
Doree: That,
Kate: That give me, they give me extremely upsetting dreams. And I also noticed I've been waking up and I'm still feeling tired. So I'm thinking I need to take a little break from my sleep supplements.
Doree: So did see that. Did you see those articles like last week, about how, um, children are taking way too much melatonin, lain?
Kate: I, I think I just saw the headlines. Um, yeah. I, I mean, I, I, I imagine somehow have avoided giving my kids melatonin, but I feel like I am taking too much of it.
Doree: Interesting. Okay. All right. Yeah.
Kate: Well, so that is my intention is to just really try to go to sleep without some sort of sleep aid this week. And just, do you have just see how it happens, see how it goes.
Doree: Do you have kind of a, a plan any way that you're gonna tweak your routine?
Kate: No. I'm just gonna try to do the things that I know are good for me, which is like, get off my screen, read my book, just close my eyes. If I need to, I could listen to like a little meditation, those sorts of things.
Doree: Okay. That sounds good. I've been doing this really fun thing. The last couple nights where I wake up at like three 30
Kate: Or four. Ooh.
Doree: And I can't fall back asleep until like six and then I get, oh, that's the worst. And then I get like one more hour of sleep.
Kate: And then you feel like almost sick all day.
Doree: Yeah. And I like, I just like, don't feel great all day.
Kate: Is it anxiety? Is your body, is something going on that you think is waking you up?
Doree: I mean, this is not that like, this happens occasionally. This is not like mm-hmm, <affirmative> that unusual. I think it's probably partly anxiety. Partly. I think I'm also like, not the deepest sleeper. So if something wakes me up, then I'm just up.
Kate: Oh, same.
Doree: Yeah. You know,
Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Doree: So, yeah. So that's just, that's, that's kind of been a bummer.
Kate: I'm sorry. That's the worst. I, I that's happens to me too where I'm like up, I was up the other night from three to four. Yeah. And I slept from like four to four to six and it was like, oh, this is not just not gonna feel good today.
Doree: Yeah, totally. Like I don't feel horrible. I think I would feel horrible if I hadn't fallen back asleep at all.
Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> you know?
Doree: Um, and that was why at like six, I was like, oh my God, I'm so tired. And I just, I need to just try to go to sleep. And then I did, I did go to sleep. All right. Well, Kate, I wish you luck in this detoxing journey,
Kate: I guess. Thank you. And I wish you luck in this. Uh, no, it's okay. No, I think it hasn't been co-opted you can call this a detoxing journey. It's a okay. We detox and I think,
Doree: Yeah, I think in, and I think in this case, it is, it is apt. You are trying to like wean yourself off something. Anyway, indeed. I won't parse that anymore. Um, thank you, Kate. Thank you listeners.
Kate: And of course Doree, Forever35 is hosted and produced by Dore and Kate Spencer it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammi Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks for listening.