Episode 223: Welcome to Middle Age with Jessi Klein
“
[Kids] will all be fine as long as they’re fiercely and fully loved. Everything else will come out in the wash.
”
- Jessi Klein
Kate discovers her daughters love ASMR and Doree sets a goal for June. Then Jessi Klein, author of You’ll Grow Out Of It and I’ll Show Myself Out, joins them to discuss being middle-aged, grappling with losing your identity in motherhood, and when it’s time to stop writing about your kid.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums
Kate: Quickie, visit our website podcast for links, everything we on the you can find on and Instagram at podcast, and you can join the forever where the password is. You can also shop our shop
Doree: Five. You can also sign up for the five newsletter, five podcast newsletter, and you can call or text us seven eight one five nine one zero three nine. And our email is forever podcast, gmail.com.
Kate: Okay. Can I tell you something very strange that my daughter introduced me to yesterday?
Doree: Yes, please.
Kate: So my children both love a SM R
Doree: Okay.
Kate: They have somehow discovered it because clearly my parental monitoring of their YouTube consumption has gone downhill in the pandemic. They didn't even use YouTube at the start of this pandemic were like no screens. And now we're like screens everywhere changed a lot. I'll you? So they love doing, they like make themselves as SMR, voice memos. Like they love as SMR. But what I did not know existed, cause I do not connect with ASMR. I know for some people it's very relaxing and comforting for me. It like gives me the he GBS. OK. So I don't partake mm-hmm <affirmative> so I didn't know that there was like, ASMR kind of like role playing. Oh, like not in a, um, particularly adult way, but what my daughter introduced me to yesterday was as SMR skincare routines. So people it's wild. So like she had one where it was like a big sister was teaching a little sister about skincare, but the whole time she whispering like then like the product will like crackle in the background. This is me doing ASMR for Doree. I've never heard of such a thing. And it was like a strange combination of skincare, which you and I like to talk about and ASMR, which for many people is like a part of self soothing.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: So I am curious if anyone else has ever heard anything like this because a quick search tells me that it is all over the internet. Like a SMR, beauty videos are a thing.
Doree: Wow. And your kids are into them.
Kate: An unbeknownst to me, my 11 year old child and the nine year old too. <laugh> love listening to ASMR skincare routines.
Doree: Wow. Okay.
Kate: Yeah. So is Google is fun if you never have it is,
Doree: Do they, do you know of any channels or, you know, people that they especially like to follow?
Kate: Okay. I, you know what? I should have asked for recommendations. I had my daughter play me a bunch last night because we were doing a puzzle. She was like, let's listen to some ASMR. Then I was like, what is happening? Like this is I wild. So I'll ask her for a couple recommendations and I will include those in our show notes on our website.
Doree: Okay. This is exciting.
Kate: And then like, maybe I'll make my own ASMR skincare routine.
Doree: I bet you could. Kate. I bet you could.
Kate: I Would also love to know for people who I do, like, like, I don't know if you consume any ASMR stuff, story. I do love the soap, cutting videos, those and Sam who, our producer also loves soap, cutting videos. And I find this there's so much satisfaction in the sound and like the tiny pieces, but I don't physically respond to like a whisper. So I would love if there are people who really do use a SMR as part of their self care, I would hear from them. Just learn more about what it's like, this is new.
Doree: Have to here. I nor a of SMR content
Kate: Listened. Have you ever listened to it to see if like your body reacts to it?
Doree: I have listened to it. Um, it's it's not like my thing
Kate: To my daughter. I was like, it's like cilantro. Some people's like their physical genetics make it. So cilantro tastes like soap and for other people it takes delicious.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And this is my amazing comparison. Cilantro and ASMR the same thing.
Doree: <laugh> well, I mean, it's like anything, right? Like some things resonate with people and some things don't and that's what makes us human.
Kate: Um, speaking of resonating, can I throw a couple gentle content recommendations out into the ether?
Doree: Yes,
Kate: Please. Okay. So number one is girls five on peacock. I've talked about the first season, which I loved the second season is currently out. Episodes are coming out. It just started it. It's so good. And it is shit's creak ish to me in that it's just funny and light and lovely. Hmm. And in these times, isn't that what we all need?
Doree: I, yes, I think so.
Kate: I mean, rhetorical question. And then the second recommendation is a podcast that believe launched kinda in late March. It's called the antidote. It's hosted by two women who are comedy writer and comedy writers and performers. And the concept of the podcast is providing an antidote to the stress of the outside world. Mm. So they, while they also talk about current events, they also provide like very lovely calming recommendations for pop culture, for skincare. They have really great interviews. I was looking for a podcast, listen to while I cooked dinner. And, um, some friends are friends with the hosts and had recommended it. And like every podcast is a true crime podcast. Literally I was scrolling through like the top 100 and it's like either a wacky conservative dude or like true like murders and martinis, which actually might be the name of a podcast. But like everything is like murder. And I was like, I don't, I don't want that. Uh, so I listened to, um, you know, busy Phillips is doing her best and a lot, which is a very long podcast that gets me through like three cooking sessions case have three episodes, which I love, but the antidote, everybody, if you need a nice, gentle, fun, smart, thoughtful podcast, the antidote,
Doree: I have also been listening to a new podcast,
Kate: Lay it on me,
Doree: I guess it's sort of a true crime podcast, but it's not a murder podcast. It's Heidi world about, about Heidi, about Heidi.
Kate: Oh, that sounds good.
Doree: Um, it's hosted by Molly Lambert, who is a really smart and funny writer here in Los Angeles. Who's written for like every publication you probably read. Um, and she, yeah, she put together this really engaging podcast about Heidi fle. And it's one of those, like, not like everything you thought you knew about Heidi slices wrong, but there is a lot of background and context that I just had no idea about. And also like, I love a deep dive into like kind of CD eighties LA you know? Yes, I do CD, but like rich eighties,
Kate: LA delicious. So fun. Yeah. So there's like a fantasy element to that, even when it's real.
Doree: Totally. So I am enjoying that podcast. So I, I recommend it if you're looking for, you know, it's, it's, I think it's 10 episodes. It's, it's a, it's a short, a short podcast. It's not one of these podcasts that you're gonna commit to for years and years, like forever 35. Um, it's, you know, you, you listen to it and then you're done, but I, I am enjoying it. So I just wanted to put that out there. A recommendation,
Kate: Have another one to throw into the pile.
Doree: Okay. Let's hear it.
Kate: Scam flus.
Doree: Oh, okay.
Kate: Which is hosted by, uh, Sachi. I forget their last name. Cool. Who works at buzzed Sacchi. Cool. Mm-hmm <affirmative> hosted by Sachi. Cool. And Sarah haggy and a friend of the pod, Sarah Enni produces on it. And it's really good. It's it's like,
Doree: Can I ask a question?
Kate: Yes Doree
Doree: How does it differ from say Scam Goddess?
Kate: I haven't listened to a lot of scam goddess it's scams in the like digital influencer space.
Doree: Okay. So it has a specific focus.
Kate: It has a Fluencer focus, which got it love. Like I love influencer scams,
Doree: Totally
Kate: Modern scams. Like we've got our Heidi slice scam of the eighties <affirmative> and I love a modern scam. And the nice thing about scamfluencers is it's like three episodes per scam. So kind of similar to what you were saying.
Doree: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah,
Kate: Yeah. You don't, you don't need, you're not like in it for the long haul.
Doree: Right. And also you can like dip in and out. Like if you don't love one of the scams they're talking about, you can just like listen to a different one.
Kate: Yes, exactly. So, um, you know, sometimes people ask us for our podcast Rex, and I don't think we planned on sharing today, but here we've got three.
Doree: Yeah. There you go.
Kate: Look at us. Do, should I be listening to scam goddess?
Doree: I don't listen to it regularly, but I have enjoyed the episodes that I listen to. I really, I, the host Lacey Mosley. Is that her last name? Yeah. Lacey Mosley. Um, who's an actress. She's so funny. And I really like, she's a great host. Mm. Um, so I do, I do really enjoy listening to her.
Kate: My friend, I should say, we're talking about scams. My friend, Katie also hosts a great spam podcast called scam. Wow.
Doree: Oh, what's the, what's the premise of that one.
Kate: She digs into all sorts of scams. She's a scammer deep diver. She's like very knowledgeable about it. And I really appreciate her pun sham. Well, the, the play on Shawa and her title always makes me laugh every time. Which I think about her podcast.
Doree: I wonder what the next, what the next scam, like, you know, there were like true crime podcast. Now. I feel like we're in like an age we're in the age of the scammer, right. There was like inventing Anna on Netflix. There was, there are all these scam podcasts. Like what's gonna be the next
Kate: Thing. Well, I mean, you are the journalist who originally wrote about the hipster Grif. One of like the lates, most iconic scammers.
Doree: Yeah. And now she has a deal. Mindy. She's a deal with Mindy Kaling.
Kate: I mean, how wild is that? If you could travel back in time and be like, Hey, don't worry, everybody. This person who scammed the world is gonna,
Doree: I know, right?
Kate: Oh, America, what a, what a place? What a place? Well, listen, shifting gears a little bit. I like what I'm hearing from you that you're moving your body every day. This,
Doree: Okay. So this was inspired by Peloton instructor, Robin Arzon, a zone. How do you say her last name?
Kate: A zone? I say Arzon OK.
Doree: This was in, this was inspired by Peloton instructor, Robin Aon, who I guess has done this kind of challenge before. I think she did it in December and it's not like an official Peloton challenge. Like it's not like in the app or anything. She just, I think she just like announces it on her Instagram. And it's basically just like, you move the challenges to move your body for 30 minutes or three miles a day for all of June. And I really, this really spoke to me because as we have been discussing on this show, I have been feeling a little bit in a body movement rut.
Kate: Mm.
Doree: And I just, I like the idea of just like, you know what? You just gotta move your body. Like that's, it can really be anything. There's no pressure to like, you know, do a program or like reach a goal. It's just like, this is it. And so I was like, you know what? I can do this. Um, so I'm doing it and you know, we're on day three, but
Kate: Okay. Okay. I've
Doree: Done. You're in it. I've done it every day. So, so I'm three for three.
Kate: And, and what has been thus far? Your three movement selections.
Doree: Okay. So the first day I did a 20 minute, um, strength class on the Peloton app and then a 20 minute yoga class for a total of 40 minutes.
Kate: Wow. Overachiever.
Doree: And then yesterday I had my group tennis class, which was an hour long. So that was my thing for yesterday. And then today I had a tennis lesson that was also an hour long. So that was my thing for today.
Kate: I love it, Doree.
Doree: Well, thanks Kate also, you know what I like, I like that it's half an hour, like half an hour feels mm-hmm, <affirmative> doable, but you can still get something done in half an hour and like, feel good. Um, I don't have to like rearrange my day to get it. So I'm, I'm like, I'm, I'm feeling good about it.
Kate: Story proud of you. Happy you.
Doree: Thank you. Kate
Kate: Would love to go on like a gentle hike with you. If you like an activity
Doree: We could do. I love that Kate, can we do them?
Kate: That'd yeah,
Doree: Let's go on a gentle hike.
Kate: I would love it. Should we go to run and really look for the celebs
Doree: Does not feel gentle to me.
Kate: It does. It also has no sun coverage, no sun
Doree: Coverage. It has no sun coverage. Parking is a nightmare. It's such a scene. It's like
Kate: Angeles.
Doree: You're just like walking up a, like a sidewalk essentially. Like doesn't, it doesn't feel like you're in nature. Really.
Kate: The strange thing about this city, like if you've never been here and I hadn't really been here until we moved is that it's very hilly, which I didn't really like we have mountains. Yes. And so just all around the city are hikes basically in, you know, behind apartment buildings. And if you've never heard of run, it's kind the, uh, scene
Doree: Seen. See, I was just gonna say it's where to go to C and be seen,
Kate: But it's like, if you're an influencer, I did wanna see Courtney Cox on a hike in run canyon.
Doree: Oh, there you go.
Kate: But for the most part, like, I think we're looking for the like Nick vials of the world.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: <laugh> well, now that we have psychoanalyze Runion canyon, should we introduce our guests?
Doree: Yes, let's do it.
Kate: Well, Doree, today we are talking do dare I say an icon of the comedy space.
Doree: I would say the comedy and the writing space.
Kate: Our guest today is Jessie Klein. She is a writer, an actress, a standup comedian born and raised in New York. She is appeared on shows like a show by show with David spade, VH one's best week ever. She's performed standup on comedy. Central's premium blend. You know, her as the head writer and executive producer of Amy of inside Amy Schumer, she's really done it all. She does voices on animation and she now has two best selling books of essays. And her most recent book is I'll show myself out essays on midlife and motherhood, which just came at the end of April. We're so excited to get to talk to Jessie. She's just lovely.
Doree: She's great.
Kate: Yeah. And, and her book is really great. And especially if you are a mother or a parent and have not read the first essay in her book about kind the loss of your identity as a parent is, uh, it's re it really gets to your souls. You
Doree: Yeah. So, um, here's Jesse, we're gonna take a break and then we'll come right back.
Kate: Well, Jesse, welcome to forever 35. We're so thrilled to have you, um, loved, I've been listening to your book on audio book, which has been a real treat because you're such a funny narrator
Jessi Klein: <laugh> and it's thank you so much for having me. I'm truly honored.
Kate: Oh, we're thrilled. You're here. So we always kick off our episodes by asking our guests to share a self care practice, which can be annoying when we put people on the spot, this, but this can really be anything. So I know you are in a very busy time right now with the book coming out. Um, but is there anything that you do in your day to day that you consider your self-care?
Jessi Klein: Oh my gosh. I mean, I feel like I am, uh, real trash in the self-care department. I mean, the one thing I will say, which is a bit of a repudiation, is that a word repudiation of a thing I wrote in my first book, I wrote a whole chapter in my first book, um, which was called you'll grow out of it about how, which I hate taking baths. And look, who's come around, look fills that puppy up most nights of the week, um, gets in there and just stews, like a little prune <laugh> that's I mean, it's like really, sometimes I feel like the only relaxing nice time in my day. And I used to think it was so gross. I don't know. And now I love taking a bath. I try to fill ju of water to use, to water my plants. So I'm not a complete dumpster fire for using so much water. I forget what uses more water, a shower or a bath?
Kate: I think it's a shower, actually.
Jessi Klein: I think maybe the shower does. I'll just stick with that anyway. A bath. That's what I got for you. A bath.
Doree: I, I was, I was re I also have recently come around to baths Jessie, and, but I was reminded that like, you don't get clean from a bath just by like sitting in the bath <laugh>
Jessi Klein: Oh, no, no, no. Bath is not about cleanliness at all. No, the a bath is abandons me. No, you have to shower
Doree: The rest. Yeah. Yeah. I took a bath the other night, like after I like, I hadn't showered in a couple days, but it was just, just like, I need a, and then I got outta the bath and I was like, oh, I stink. <laugh> like, I smell so bad. So that was like a very good reminder that yes, like that's not the bath is not for personal hygiene. <laugh>
Jessi Klein: No, I, 100% considered something to be that's making you dirty or not cleaner. I think it, I'm sure you didn't smell and you're being hard on yourself.
Doree: Thank you for saying that. But,
Jessi Klein: You know, I support,
Doree: I, I did. And you know what, not that there's anything wrong with smelling, right? Like body over is, is great. I just, I don't like the smell. So I personally was like, oh, I'm gonna just, but I, then I sort of cheated and just, um, wet a wash cloth and like wiped down the
Jessi Klein: Pits. Yeah. Yeah. You do an armpit moment.
Doree: Thank you.
Jessi Klein: I think an armpit can safely be cleaned in a bath. I think it's just more like the, in the full picture of things.
Doree: Yes.
Jessi Klein: I think like now, will I take a bath at the end of the day, which is normally <laugh> normally when I'm taking a bath, that is the end of the day. And knowing that I will shower in the morning, I just let that be mm-hmm <affirmative> but on the off chance, sometimes very sad moment that I begin the day with a bat
Kate: <laugh> oh, I love a running back.
Doree: Oh,
Jessi Klein: The, you know, there can be something quite sad. I feel like about beginning the day with a bat, but as someone who is 46 and just has like so many orthopedic hip issues back issues, sometimes you gotta, I gotta do a bath just to get, just to get this little <laugh> this little ske out the door. Can I ask those moments? If it's a bath in the, I do have to follow up with after the,
Kate: What, what got you in, like, what was the shift for you? Was there a moment or was it just kind of looking for a way to reclaim your space and your time or, or were you just like, I need to sit in hot water and stew
Jessi Klein: <laugh>. I mean, first of all, Kate, great question. I'm gonna say that sometime between the 2016 election and the pandemic, I decided I needed to Gallop into that water. Like a Gazal escaping <laugh> all the lions. Yeah. I don't know. It's exactly kind of what I not to keep being like, it's what I wrote about, but I, I was so cocky when I wrote about not liking baths. I didn't mean to be, but it just goes to show that as you aged, I guess you learn, oh, like I was like, I kind of wrote it like, oh, it does seem like people are taking a bath are kind of like, it's the only safe place to go at a certain point <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> or that was like, what I had picked up on, like watching, like sort of bathing related commercials in the eighties when like, like Calgon take me away stuff. Um, yeah, I'm in a very Calgon take me away space. It seems like the only quiet place where you can be like left alone.
Kate: Yeah.
Jessi Klein: To have like a moment of pleasure.
Kate: I, I love that. You, you just mention that feeling of like, when you get older and you suddenly realize you were wrong about something or you give yourself permission to change an opinion. Yeah. Which can be so, so freeing like that, that does feel like a gift that kinda comes with getting older.
Jessi Klein: Oh yeah. Oh, there are so many things that you only understand. <laugh> I guess once you arrive over this, um, you know, uh, little threshold is just like, oh, everything does kind of hurt. Um, like the way I get out of bed now, ironically, I feel like it does look like when you see little videos of like, what a H like what a baby horse looks like when it takes its first stab
Kate: <laugh>
Jessi Klein: Versus kinda like trying to get its legs underneath it and is like, what am I doing? That's kind of what it looks like. Yeah. Just those first hundred 20 seconds getting out of bed. It didn't used to feel that way. I would just get out bed. I would just get up and go out of the bed. And now it's like, I have to like the first like 50 steps really hurt.
Kate: Mm.
Jessi Klein: I don't even know why. Wow. You're like, didn't know this would be wall, the wall complaints. Jazz.
Kate: No, I mean, that's like, that is, I think what part of this is what midlife is, is it's not, I dunno if it's complains, it's that realization that like, oh, this is it. Like I'm here now. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Like, oh, fuck. Like this shit caught up with me in some way. And I didn't think I would be the one. I don't know. I it's just as like a, it's more processing, I think.
Jessi Klein: Yeah. It's like, when you're it's like, or are we really here? And like when you're on a plane and you've landed and you're like, okay, we've stopped moving. Are we, are we really, really here? And then the little buildings and I was like, Bing, and you're like, oh, we're here. Stand up, get your bags. We're at this place now. Yeah.
Kate: One thing I have appreciated in all your writing is just your openness about your mental health, the struggle that presents in your life, the way it, the way it's kind of interwoven in your daily experiences with your son and work. And I wanted to know how your relationship to your mental health has, if it has changed as you get older, do you feel like you understand it better? Or, or is it one of those things where you're always kind of at that same, the relationship stays the same, no matter how old you get.
Jessi Klein: Wow. I will tell you, I'm having like such a strong, deep wish that I could answer that it has changed <laugh>
Jessi Klein: Or that I'm able to do anything better or differently. Sadly, for myself, I seem to, uh, just really be stuck in the mud with all my same prob um, my same patterns, I guess, um, as someone who struggles with at times like severe depression really never met something I couldn't ruminate on. <laugh> never met a rabbit hole. I didn't just fully slip and slide my way down. Um, yeah. I, I, I don't know. I really like just hearing you ask that question, I was like, God, I wish the truth was that things are different, but for me unfortu, <laugh> the struggle. I haven't, I mean, I, I feel like I've aged and come into some wisdom about like things about life, but in terms of like my specific brand of little mental struggles, um, they, they kind of are where they are. I hope that's not true for the people listening. I hope
Kate: It feels true for me. And, and maybe it's that it, that never changed, you know, that those you changed through life, but what you're experiencing mental health wise doesn't I don't know. I, I, I, in hearing, in hearing you answer, I'm like, oh, wait, Kate, nothing's changed. Like you get yourself, you understand yourself better, but like the actual actions of your brain and the responses are still, there's exhausting at peace with it, something that you is what it is.
Jessi Klein: I mean, I'm not at peace with it at all. I mean, look, I I'm always, um, I'm always trying and I feel like I've this, like, you know, when you get to be a certain age, you do at, at least you have, or at least I have, uh, you know, like I recognize, like you've been through enough things that you can see patterns. Mm you're like, okay, well, you know, like the way I would react to, you know, like the breakup I went through when I was like 22 was not the same as the breakup, I went to like 15 years later or what, you know, you're like, okay, this, when like, even talking to like my dad, who's gonna be 82. You know, that's always an interesting perspective, like the sort of world events, not that he's not, you know, horrified by things, but you know, like Warren Ukraine, he's like, yeah, it's awful.
Jessi Klein: He's like wars end, you know, it'll end. And like Pam, when the pandemic started, he's like, yeah, you know, it's awful. Pandemics will end it's. It is a little bit of like a broad view of like, the world will take its time, but you know, like things move along. Um, and so I, I sometimes can feel like an awareness of like, okay, I understanding like too shall pass type of yeah. But it doesn't make the feeling as it's passing through whatever it may be, uh, any better. I'm really not the poster child for mental health. <laugh>
Kate: I think you are, because that's, I think that's a very accurate assessment about how people feel about it. Right. It's like not something that we're gonna fix. It's rather like something that we almost like take under our wing <laugh> in a way, like, it becomes part of us, you know?
Jessi Klein: Yeah. I mean, the one thing I really would, I guess it's, it's like, um, it's a real, what's the thing I'm looking for. Also, I feel like my brain has fully di like, I'm looking for some, like, sort of common turn or phrase that I can't find right now. Uh, what I was trying to say is like, I wish sometimes I wish I was a better compartmentalize, you know, like, um, the way men usually are <laugh>. Um, and I don't wanna take things like too dark, dark, dark, but whatever we live in hell. So <laugh>, we live in hell with moments of brightness that are spurred by incredible people, doing incredible things and, and kind humans, sprinting kindness. But you know, like, uh, you know, this last week, the shooting in Texas, the one before that in Buffalo, the one before that, and the one before that, like I, but in particular, the one, the one in Texas, you know, I couldn't do any work last week. I was in a very, I Ugh, fortunate position, Ugh. To be able to like, just cancel stuff I had to do. I mean, there are people obviously had to go to work, but, um, I just couldn't, I was just flat flattened out, which in some ways feels like a rational reaction to what happened. Um, but then I, you know, like men that I know are like OB obviously also feel devastated and awful, but just can kind of not be thinking about it all day.
Kate: Well, you, you talk about that in your book where there's like the, the privilege that men and I think specifically white men have of just like thinking everything's gonna be okay. Uhhuh. Cause that's how things mostly are for them
Jessi Klein: Uhhuh.
Kate: And that was, that was very validating to read
Jessi Klein: Well, or like, you know, again on a smaller scale of like, just like little life daily, but non horrific things. Like, um, you know, like I think of it as like, um, someone's gonna like men just think plants just keep growing and it's like, someone's watering them. <laugh>. I mean, have you ever seen a man water? A plant you're fucking one <laugh> no. And, um, it's like, you know, someone's watering the plants all the time and it's, I mean, expand that outwards as a metaphor and as in as many ways as you like. Yeah. And I, you know, I look, I don't not all men.
Doree: Um, Jesse, I wanna ask a question about writing about your son. Um, I, I haven't, I haven't written quite as extensively about my son as you have, but I do have a podcast with my husband where we talk about him and I'm, and I, I guess I'm asking this like both, cause I'm curious what you have to say and also to kind of like work on my own feelings about this, but like, does there come a point where you feel like you have to stop writing about Asher?
Jessi Klein: Oh, that's such a question. Just in terms of like, at what point is it like, sort of beyond like his consent, I suppose? Is that
Doree: What you, yeah. Yeah.
Jessi Klein: Um, you know, that's such a great question. I don't really have any answers. I, I, I feel like I do get asked and I'm always, I'm, I'm interested in the questions about, in general, not just around kids, but you know, it's like how you write about anyone you love mm-hmm <affirmative> or, or people who, you know, are just still alive and things you wanna say about them. Yeah. Or write about obviously with your children it's even trickier. But I, I feel like for me, the north star is like with my north star, with humans in general. Right. Is like, don't write anything about anyone where I, I feel like I, then couldn't like, look them in the eye. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like, if I can like, stay in a room, like, would I have to run away or feel hideous if I ran into this person, like, I couldn't talk about what was written. If I can't do that, then I'm not gonna write it. Um, in terms of Asher, am I writing about my son? I mean, this is like, this is really tricky territory too, because it's like, it's like one of the things about being both a mother and an artist, right. It's like you wanna express yourself and tell your whole truth, but he will read this one day or maybe, or maybe he'll just be like right off. I dunno. I mean, um, what, how do you Doree please guide? What do you think?
Doree: I don't know. I mean, like I said, this is, you know, this is something that I'm, I'm sort of wrestling with. I mean, we have now several years of a podcast where we talked about, you know, his conception via IVF and then his birth and his infancy. And, you know, there's also like a year's worth of podcast where we talk about how we really want a girl. And then we had a boy, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's like, yeah, he might, he might listen to that. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, I also don't know. I do know that like, I, I, I keep, I feel like I keep reading about like OG mom bloggers, who are like, they have kind of come out and said that they regret writing about their kids and some moms on TikTok who have like stopped posting their kids. And I, yeah. I mean, I, I do feel like there is, there, there is a line and, but I don't know what it is. Um, so yeah, there, there's my, uh, very ambiguous answers. <laugh> these were
Jessi Klein: Questions. I mean, for me, like, I, I mean, I'm not really a big social media person to begin with, but I sort of decided early on, I didn't wanna like post any pictures of him. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, like I just, for me, my, again, uh, ruminations about safety and photos and all that stuff, I just, I don't post any pictures of him. Um, uh, in terms of, I don't know, again, with like, it's a, it's a real struggle with like your ability to be free as an artist, which is something I think that your child would want you to see and to experience like your freedom of spirit and sort of, I mean, that stuff there's like so many benefits, I think, to like, to that maybe it can all just be balanced out by, I mean, what's coming into my head is just to say, like, I think the most important, like, thinking about my own childhood, it's like are the things that were working in it and the things that weren't, uh, like that they'll all be fine. As long as they're just like very fiercely and fully loved and everything else will come out in the wash. I don't know. That's the best I got.
Kate: Uh, I think it's a thing like every parent is, is thinking about whether or not it's not whether or not it's, you're, uh, like an artist in any way or not. It's like that. I'm just posting them online as a whole, even letting them be online. I'm in, I'm now in the age where like they wanna go online.
Jessi Klein: Oh God.
Kate: Yeah. My oldest wants to write movie reviews and I'm like, like, that's amazing. But also like, I don't want you near the internet anyway.
Jessi Klein: Yeah. Um, I can't that as a whole. I'm so cool. It's a lot. I'm not there
Kate: Yet. It's coming for you. Don't worry. Gonna crouch all crouch.
Speaker 4: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. We are
Kate: Back. I really enjoyed how Nate Buras was a key part of your self care as a person.
Jessi Klein: Oh
Kate: Yeah. And
Jessi Klein: Him is self care.
Kate: I mean, like he, he is he and his husband both are, I mean, you write just like a really lovely essay about them. And then of course I watch the today clip of them recording a video message to you, and it's all very sweet. And you get to, that seems like a very big highlight, but you, throughout the book, you have like little reality TV moments mentioned in particular their show. Is that like how you mentally shut off
Jessi Klein: Reality TV?
Kate: Yeah. Or just Nate and Jeremiah in particular.
Jessi Klein: I mean Nate and Jeremiah in particular. Um, yeah, I, that came in so full circle here. I'm gonna try and say something. That's like a moment of hope. <laugh>. I mean, I, this book took so long to write truly years and years. Uh, some of it's on me. I procrastinated <laugh>, uh, in two 19 it was gonna be due in 2020. And I was like, I've got time. And then the pandemic happened and I was like, fuck anyways. Yeah. Um, but just sitting, writing these essays, and then I was like, I wanna just sit and write one. That just feels like it's just about something I love to think about, which is Nate Ferguson, his husband, Jeriah Brent. And, um, like just sitting alone in quarantine time, uh, like could not have imagined that book would come out, that they would ultimately like read this essay that I would end up on today show that they would make that video.
Jessi Klein: And then that through also my delightful book, agent David Kuhn, that he would make it happen that I would get to meet them and have a drink with them and that they would be so kind and show up to like, just be such incredible sweeties <laugh>. Um, it was a real, like, um, manifest moment of just remembering, uh, like I was like, oh, I, I kind of manifest that happening in the weirdest way. Not to be full white nonsense, but, um, yeah, sorry. That's a long roundabout response, but, um, yeah, I mean, I'm obsessed with them. I will say like a part of my self care that I guess encompasses me and Jeremiah in particular is I it's less like reality TV, although I love reality TV and more like I can go down like a, a really just deep like Pinterest rabbit hole, like, like, and I do get very obsessed with just looking at pictures of nice spaces.
Kate: Yeah.
Jessi Klein: Like I could look at spaces forever and ever, and ever,
Kate: Well, it's funny you focus on Nate and Jeremiah because they're like architectural digest house, tour videos. That's like my bath, those videos where you just in a really expensive house that you'll never live in. It's so clean
Jessi Klein: KTO, you were saying about those architectural digest, like come into my house things which are also can be enraging. I mean, oh, two sides to every cause the deep jealousy, the like fury of like, why don't I have that house? Whatever. It's also insane. But, um, I mean, just as like a native new Yorker, like for me, like the feeling of walking down the street, like at night, like, like I grew up in the village and I would like walk down those streets and I lived in a very, very, cannot say enough, very, very tiny apartment <laugh> and then would like walk past these like west village townhouses. And you'd see the lights on at night and like looking in a window,
Kate: I
Jessi Klein: Love it would just be like, oh yeah. And then those, those video chores now just deliver on that, on that like little itch so beautifully. And I will also just say if what just a pet peeve that I have in general, if anyone's listening and has like a gorgeous, beautiful house or any kind of house, honestly, when someone comes to your house or if I come to your house, I believe you must show the person visiting your entire house.
Kate: I wanna see every nook and CRA
Jessi Klein: Giving a, to up hiding your house
Kate: And I'll sneak off if, uh, yeah. You know,
Jessi Klein: You gotta show everybody your whole house. If you have a, I mean, especially if you have a fancy, big rich person house, don't hide that shit. Don't pretend, just show me the house.
Kate: <laugh>
Jessi Klein: Sorry. Jesse wants to see the house show on if you want.
Kate: I wanna see the house I'm with you.
Jessi Klein: I love seeing inside of people's
Kate: Houses, Jesse, we always wrap by asking people about their skincare practice, whether they have one or not. And if you do, if you have any products that you love that people should know about, so I'm going, I'm going to pass that to you. OK. And see if there's anything you wanna share.
Jessi Klein: There are a couple of things right now that I am loving one that I recently, or like within the last year discovered, which is I'm very into, I'm a zombie pale human being. Um, so I've always liked adding like a, a very rosy cheek just to bring me to like, and I will say, um, Ilia, I L
Kate: Mm-hmm
Jessi Klein: <affirmative> that makeup brand, which came after me on Instagram and targeted me and man, they hook line sinker, get me. Um, they make, I guess it's a multis stick that you can use on your lips and your cheeks. It is a perfect amount of blush, a pop of color. They're all good tones. So an Ilia, multis stick is now part of my daily routine. Um, and they're not, not expensive or very reasonable makeup price point. Um, what else? I also have insane under eye circles that are just sort of genetically there, no matter how much rest I get. And I, uh, I'm pretty attached to a Chanel concealer.
Kate: Oh, interesting.
Jessi Klein: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> I mean, I just back that thing on <laugh> and then, um, and then lastly, um, there's something I just started using. That's like a, like a CC cream or something. This is more than you guys wanted, but I'm like,
Kate: No, this is like, no, this is great. But I mean,
Jessi Klein: This is, I wanna know. But again, I dunno that I'm the greatest ad, but, um, uh, there's a CC crew made by clay C L E that I found. Yeah. Right. I love, I love seeing the pen come out. Never
Kate: Heard of clay.
Jessi Klein: Wait, I wanna make sure before we go, I just wanna make sure that I have it right. Clay CC cream. Am I doing this correctly? Hold on, hold on. Yes. Clay C it's their C cream. Um, it's really good because it's not too sheer coverage wise again, I need a lot of what the ladies call coverage. There's a lot to cover <laugh> so it's not too sheer. Um, nor is it too thick? Like you don't, it, it looks natural and it doesn't feel, wait, I'm gonna send you a link, Kate. Um, cause thank you. Allure mag is also endorsing clay, cosmetic CCC
Kate: Cream. You know, if I see that allure, best of beauty circle, I know it really sells a lot. Right? Like she means a lot. When did, when did we, I mean props to allure, but like for whatever reason, that seal of approval for me, it's like, okay, I'm in, thank you. This magazine
Jessi Klein: Props to allure. I will also say, because I do like over the years when allure puts out their like best of whatever with the little stuff, I do think they do a good job vetting like yeah. All of the products that have gotten the Allure's good housekeeping, silver approval. I have found all those products to be really good products.
Kate: Same. So it's a, it's a worthy, it's a worthy award. It's
Jessi Klein: A wor yes, this is not, this is not like a critic's choice. This is like a, this is not
Kate: <laugh>.
Jessi Klein: Um, yes. Plate cosmetic, CCC cream. And it goes just so you're aware if you do order it, when you put it out in the tube, it comes out like very white looking, like no matter which tone you buy, and then you have to like, you rub it in your hands and it turn it like adjusts. I don't know the microbeads or whatever. <laugh> clearly not being paid by them to, um, fully fuck up the pitch. But, um, anyway, it, it just it'll come outta the tube looking like almost like sunscreen color. And you're like, what is the, then as you rub it on your face adjusts to your specific tone. Okay. Like clay. Well now wow. If I don't get a free tube of clay for at least trying to come on clay anyway, did clay got, that's what I, those are my, those are my three that's. Those are my three biggies. That's kind of my main thing.
Kate: Those are excellent. Those are great. We've had any of those mentioned. I also wanna say, I still don't feel like worthy of Chanel. And I think I need to buy myself a Chanel makeup product. Like, do you know what I mean? Like you sometimes are like, I can't. Yes. I, and I need to get, I need to do it. I need to just bite the bullet and go for a Chanel product.
Jessi Klein: I do enjoy a Chanel concealer, but um, yeah, that's what I, that's what I'm Hawking today, but paid by no one. These are my real product. Amazing. Amazing. Oh, also Ilia mascara is the best mascara.
Kate: Yeah, that's a good one.
Jessi Klein: Okay. That's it. That's what
Kate: I, I agree.
Jessi Klein: All right. I'm glad.
Kate: Ugh.
Jessi Klein: Cause you both look great. So obviously I will hit you up for I'm sure you've talked about it a million times, but you need to have that list on paper.
Doree: Um, thank you. I had, uh, I had laser skin lasering done today. So you did I'm. Yes. And like, I don't think you can really tell on the camera, but my freckles are
Jessi Klein: Like, I can't tell cuz you're
Doree: A little
Jessi Klein: Zoom wavy.
Doree: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like to me, I look crazy right now. So it's like funny <laugh>
Jessi Klein: Can I ask one question before we go?
Doree: Yes, of course
Jessi Klein: Our, like I feel like in the last two years now, it's like, am I doing something dumb by not getting lasers? Everyone I know is now getting lasered up. And I haven't been, this is the, in any way. This
Doree: Is the first time. This is the first time I've done it. So I will report back Jesse, where can our listeners find you if they wanna follow along with you and
Jessi Klein: Your work? Um, they can find me on Instagram where I am. You're acquaintance, Jesse Klein. Um, that's probably the best place I don't even wanna give out my Twitter handle. Cause right now it's just me screaming.
Kate: <laugh> yeah.
Jessi Klein: Um, yeah. I a much more civilized version of maybe if you stick to that in Insta.
Kate: Well, your book is I'll show myself out. It's wonderful. It was such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you. Thank you, you for coming on the pod and talking to us about all
Jessi Klein: These things. Thank you. You guys are the best. I appreciate it so much.
Kate: Another idol added to the list of guests for me. I mean just the coolest, just love getting talked
Doree: To she's. Very cool.
Kate: All right. So Dori, did you clean off your desk?
Doree: I most certainly did not.
Kate: Well, that's fine. You know, another intention lost to the wind. <laugh>
Doree: Kate. How did you, how did you do figuring out how to slow down and enjoy summer
Kate: <laugh> oh my God. Doree, LOL. <laugh> L O fucking L
Doree: You know,
Kate: Turns out I'm gonna be on a big book, deadline and, and everything. Like everything chaotic is happening in the month of June. For me, it's like my family's visiting my husband's family's visiting. My kids are going to camp. One kid goes to sleepaway camp. It's a lot of moving pieces. We don't have, you know, my kids are home a lot because they're not at camp all the time. They keep wandering in because they don't think that what I'm doing is working. Like they it's just
Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Kate: I will say though, that one thing that my intention for this week, even though I am on a tight deadline, I have a lot on my plate. I had therapy yesterday. And what I am trying to do is figure out how to take care of myself and find some balance when I'm on a really stressful deadline, because what I tend to do when I am like in a major work push, I tend to throw everything I do to take care of myself, like out the window, almost on purpose. And I become this like non sleeping, non showering, like forgetting to eat, or like only eating like cheese sticks all day. Kind of, it's almost like a, a bit of a manic energy I get when I'm on a deadline. And so what I am trying to do is maintain some boundaries for myself. Like I wanna keep exercising, I wanna maintain an early bedtime. I wanna wake up and work. So that is my intention for this week, figuring out how not to lose my mind on a deadline, but rather incorporate balance so that I can really focus, work really hard, but also like have like take a deep breath and feel calm of the,
Doree: I mean, yeah, that's challenge
Kate: Easier said than, but you know what? I'm, I'm here. I'm really hard this week and see how it goes. How about you? Um,
Doree: Well, I'm just gonna, you know, call back to something I mentioned at the beginning of the show, which is move MABA that's what is gonna be my attention for this week.
Kate: I can't wait to hear how it goes. Cause it's like, I love, I love the openness of anything counts because we put so much pressure on ourselves to move in certain ways. But I love even like 30 minutes of gardening.
Doree: Yeah, for sure. You know, if I had a garden that would definitely count
Kate: Well, Doree, let us share that forever 35 is hosted and produced by us Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast and we thank you all so much for listening.
Doree: Bye.