Episode 215: Own Your Narrative with Niharika Desai
“I have this theory that a lot of my friendships with women are like romantic comedies and more like epic movies than my romance with my husband.”
- Niharika Desai
Kate and Doree have the pleasure of chatting with Niharika Desai (Principles of Pleasure) about her long friendship with Doree dating back to 1995, how she overcame a feeling of shame around a (well-deserved) daily nap, directing the new Netflix doc series Principles of Pleasure, and all the ways she’s learned to own her personal narrative from being an MTV World VJ to her long-distance marriage. Plus, Kate makes peace with another surgery for her hand and Doree loves recommending prods to people.
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Transcript
Kate: Hey, everybody welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things that we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And the good news is that we're not experts,
Doree: But the even better news is that we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums
Kate: And you can find everything that we talk about on our website forever 35 podcast. You can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 podcast, Instagram, where all the action is at forever 35 podcast and over a on Facebook where the forever 35 Facebook group lives, where the password to join is serums.
Doree: Yeah. And you can sign up for our newsletter@foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com slash newsletter. You can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. And you can email us at, for over 35 podcast, gmail.com. Um, and I do just wanna put in another plug for the product recommendations that I'm offering. Now,
Kate: You are really, I think, leaning into the fact that you are an expert and I just want to applaud this.
Doree: Well, thank you so much, Kate. So as I mentioned on Monday's episode, I'm doing these product consultations that you can ask me to recommend one product, two products. I can overhaul your whole nighttime routine. If there is another type of consult that you are looking for, just send me a message and we can work something out, but you can find that on shop my shelf.us/dorier/consults. And we will also link to it in the show notes. And you can also find the forever 35, all of our, you know, podcast product directs@shopmyshelf.us slash forever 35. So check those out also
Kate: Of eventually I'm gonna get my act together and get my shot myself going, because I get a lot of questions about like very specific things in my Instagram stories. It's normally like, where are those glasses from?
Doree: Well, you know, I think it's just like, I think sometimes people don't realize that like, those, like people just DMing you like, Hey, can you recommend a cleanser or whatever? Like those things take time and like take our expertise. And so, um, we are just, you know, I'm just sort of charging a, a, a nominal amount, um, to continue to make those recommendations. But also all of my, just sort of like general product recs are on my shop, my shelf. And they're also on the fre 35 shop on myself.
Kate: Will it be awkward if I request a consultation with you?
Doree: No, in fact that would be kind of cool because then you could be like, wow, you are way off base. Or you could be like, you really get me. It would be horrible.
Kate: Wouldn't do that
Doree: To you be so funny.
Kate: I am in the market for a new vitamin C serum. I really, my summer Fridays, like officially ran out today. I had to take the lid off and like pound it into my hand to try to get some out. So
Doree: Well, Kate, if you just fill out the questionnaire on my shop shelf, you can okay. Get a product recommendation.
Kate: All right. I might do that because I'm feeling, I'm honestly feeling overwhelmed by the amount of vitamin CS. And like, whatever decision I make is gonna be the most important decision of my life. This is how I disassociate from the, from the traumas of the world. But yeah, I mean, put it all into a vitamin C.
Doree: We've all been there, right? Yes. Now, Kate.
Kate: Yes,
Doree: Sir. You have some, you got some like not great news recently about your hand. It
Kate: Was expected news. I knew it was gonna come to this. I had a hunch, which is that I have to get a second surgery on the hand that I broke in October, 2021, playing tug of war. If you are new to 5 35, or if you kind of missed this pivotal moment in my life, I wrapped a rope around my hand, uh, in a tug of war competition. And that went very poorly for me. And I, uh, had a very severe break in my hand and had to get surgery and I have plates and screws in my hand. And the biggest problem. Oh gosh, sorry. The biggest problem is that I have scar tissue in, on the injury site. So not like on, on the outside of my skin, but inside. And that is making my active mobility really poor. I have some passive mobility, meaning I could like push my ring finger down and it will go to almost a full fist.
Kate: My pinky, I still can't, but they don't, they definitely don't go there on their own. So I am going to have, um, like, you know, after six months of, you know, twice a week, occupational therapy with hand therapists, I get a lot of questions when I post about this paper. Like, are you just seeing a physical therapist or are you seeing, I'm seeing people who only deal with hands who are amazing at their jobs, but we we've kind of exhausted everything I can do in occupational therapy. So, and then I had two, um, oh God, what are those things called? Shots? Oh my God, why can't cortisone? I had two cortisone shots in my hand to see if that would loosen things up. It did nothing and they were so painful. So now I'm going back to surgery. The good news is, is that apparently the recovery from this second surgery is very quick and I have to be moving my hand almost like immediately to get things going again.
Kate: So it should be much easier than the first time around because it's, there's no injury anymore. You know, like the first time around, I had bones that were like completely out of place and, but there's no injury. So that's where I am on my broken hand journey. And I, you know what I actually posted about it on Instagram. And I heard from so many people who had kind of been through other hellish, you know, multiple surgery, broken bone situations. And that was very reassuring because I don't know, I don't mean a lot of people with like, who are my age with like broken bones that are constantly made to get surgery on them. You know, I feel like a lot of my kids' friends are breaking their arms, falling off the monkey bars and stuff like that, which is awful. But I don't know. I mean, again, you know, not a lot of 42 year olds playing, uh, tug of war with really bad strategies. So maybe that's why, so that's where I'm at. So I'm just kind of making peace with the fact that I have to schedule a surgery, go have a surgery again, have this go through this recovery. It's gonna impact different parts of my life. And my husband's job is gonna about to get really crazy again, which means he won't be around. I mean, it's just, you know, just figuring it all out and trying to just accept it for what it is. And ultimately it's a good thing because hopefully it means it will improve my hand.
Doree: Well, I'm excited that you are kind of getting this resolved hopefully, but sorry, you've been on this like journey.
Kate: It is one of the stupidest things I've ever experienced in my life, like Ugh, to have a severe, a severe injury, but to have an injury that has impacted my life and to have done it in the dumbest of ways, which I think oftentimes these, these injuries happen that way. Yeah. You know, it's like all you hear these stories where you're like, oh, I was just like drunk and walking up on, I slipped on an ice patch or, you know, totally always,
Doree: Or like our could wear slipped on the, on the two step staircase in her living room and like broke her foot. Yeah.
Kate: Yes. I mean, one of my best friends in college, like tripped over nothing and broke her collarbone, you know, it's just it's,
Doree: I mean, I hurt my foot putting Henry in his car seat, like slipping on the lip of the driveway. Like yeah, you
Kate: Had to wear a boot for that. I
Doree: Had to wear a boot. Like it just, you know, shit happens, Kate.
Kate: It does shit happens. And, and
Doree: I just don't think we should like, like, I don't think we should beat ourselves up over the, the manner in which we got the injury. That's what, that's all I'm saying. That's
Kate: Fair. I mean, I agree. It's just sometimes I'm like, what the fuck? I did this to myself? What was I thinking? Like what, what was I doing? But you know what, again, I can't change the past. I can only exist in the present
Doree: Story. Yeah. And the present includes more surgery,
Kate: More surgery whilst, you know, I have another book that'll be coming out now next year. And so I've gotta get cracking on revising that baby. And that requires my hand. So, you know, it's a dance, it's a delicate dance that
Doree: Requires your hand.
Kate: It's my, I broke my non-dominant hand. That's probably been the best part about this whole situation. Thank you. Being
Doree: Lefthanded. Yeah. I broke my dominant hand in high school and it was, it was not fun. So that
Kate: Sounds really tough.
Doree: I hate when people are like, at least you didn't blah, blah, blah. But like,
Kate: No, no, at
Doree: Least at least you didn't break your dominant hand because that really freaking sucked.
Kate: And everybody, anytime I meet anyone, they assume it's my dominant hand because I throw my right hand. Yes. Yes. So they're always like, oh no. And I'm like, guess what? I'm lefthanded. It made it so much more manageable.
Doree: Uh,
Kate: Anyway, speaking of it's
Doree: Still not fun. Yes.
Kate: No, I appre thank you for validating me. It's not fun. You're right. It's not, but I, I, you know, trying to see those silver linings write 'em down in my silver linings playbook.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Okay. I don't know. I don't know why that
Doree: Was almost as good as the time you quoted bono.
Kate: I'm really having like a middle aged dad Renaissance right now. I don't know what's going on.
Doree: I'm into it.
Kate: Well, we have a really lovely guest this week and Dori, I think I just wanna hand this over to you because this is someone who has played a very important role in your life for dare we say decades.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, as we mentioned in our conversation, it's been almost 30 years. We met, we met like literally the first day of freshman year of college and we're now in our mid forties. So like my gosh, um, there is some fun like nineties nostalgia in the episode when we kind of go through our, uh, various Lukes, uh, at the
Kate: Time, a lot of conversations about wallet, chains, wallet,
Doree: Chains, dog collars, drain chains, et cetera,
Kate: A drain chain, like one like a bike chain necklace.
Doree: No. Um, it's like those little silver balls.
Kate: Yep. Oh, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep.
Doree: You've seen them if you saw and you'd be like, oh yeah,
Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I know what you're talking about. Yep. You know what I'm talking. You were cool in 1995. I love it.
Doree: I was, I was so cool. So cool. Um, yeah, so we talked to my very dear friend, Niharika who is an extremely accomplished director of document entries. And it was just such a pleasure to get to talk to her. And, um, we got to talk about her work on her on a new Netflix series and just being a working mom and our friendship and how she like her whole career path. Like it's just, it's just such a, such a great conversation. And I'm just really glad we got to talk to her. I'm going to read her like official bio because I can't really do her professional life justice with just my gushing. So here we go. Neha is a two time Emmy and glad nominated Gracie and imagine award winning filmmaker. Imagine, imagine, I don't know. I don't know how to pronounce that with nearly 20 years of experience in documentary film and television, most recent way, she directed an executive produced a documentary special on mental health with lady Gaga called the power of kindness and directed Netflix's principles of pleasure, limited series streaming now possibly trending now, uh, which is a groundbreaking three-part documentary series on pleasure, wellness and sexuality for women non-binary people, her other work show running, directing or editing can also be seen on HBO, CNN, Showtime, MTV, AMC, national geographic TLC, we oxygen vice and Viceland and film festivals globally.
Doree: And apropo of nothing in everything at the same time. She's also one of the first south Asian American VJs for MTV world back in the odds, which we did talk about.
Kate: I cannot get over this or second MTV VJ correspondent to be featured here on forever 35. Because of course we had Suchin Pak
Doree: Past oh yes. Suchin Pak. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, this, this just the idea I say this in our interview, but the idea of being an MTV VJ is to me, like that was the dream job for those of us who grew up watching TRL, like TRL was our tiktok. You know what I'm saying?
Doree: I do.
Kate: I do like, I'm like literally sweating. Just thinking about how esteemed it is to be a, a of MTV VJ. That's all.
Doree: Um, it was very cool. I mean, as someone who was her friend at the time, it was like, it was very cool. So that's all I'll say. Um, right. So we are gonna be right back with Niharika . We are so excited to have you on forever 35, an actual dream come true for me to be talking to one of my oldest friends on the pod direct from Istanbul.
Kate: Oh my goodness.
Niharika : It is. Yes, it is wild direction. Istanbul during Ramadan.
Doree: Wow. Wow. Ramadan Mubarak. Well, gosh, I mean, I would say where to begin, but we always begin in the same place, which is asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So would you care to enlighten us about something that you are doing that you would consider self-care?
Niharika : Yes. Well, uh, it, it occurred to me on the Eve of my 45th birthday this year. It occurred to me that I actually don't take care of myself. So, um, earlier this year I had a revelation because so now I'm in Istan and I do a lot of work at night. I work with if people in LA and people in New York, so I'm up till three in the morning. And then most of the time I'm so low parenting a toddler. So then I'm awake till three in the morning. And then I wake up with Goldie, my daughter, uh, at six or seven in the morning. So I had this revelation that power naps during the day would really help me.
Doree: Kate was just talking about this. I took life, life
Niharika : Changing.
Doree: Have you been doing it?
Niharika : I've been doing it every day. I usually hit a circadian trough around like 2 30, 2 45, and I just set my timer for it. And I take, I take like a 30 minute power nap and I've never been a napper, but it's changing my neural pathways. So that is, that is a legit self care practice that I have incorporated into my life.
Doree: Now let ask you something, oh, go ahead. Go. I was just gonna say, do you like get into bed and like get all cozy or is this like a couch situation? Like, oh,
Niharika : Where
Doree: Is this's happening?
Niharika : Couch. It is. It is like when it's like, so I have all these other rules, Doree, as you know me,
Doree: I to bite my, when you said it recently occurred to me that I do not take care of myself. Cause I was like, we could have told you this 20 years ago, but like, yeah. Okay. I mean, we all come to these realizations at some point and like, you can lead AKA to napping, but you can't make her nap.
Niharika : Well, so I, I can't ever get in my bed with my street clothes. Oh, so
Doree: Like Phoebe Robinson?
Niharika : Yes. Yes. So, um, so I am a straight couch. Napper the couch nap is refreshing. I actually like the firmness of my no, no blankets. Just, I just sort of like, I go from a sitting position to lying. I set the timer and I do it. And it's been, when I say new neural pathways, I have like, there's been a developmental leap in my mind since I've been doing this. Wow. Yeah.
Kate: Do you think it's the rest that's providing this? Like just the kind of that moment it's changing things or is it, I, I, I need to hear more about this. I,
Niharika : I think, well, I think on like a physical, like cellular level, I think it is actually helping get more oxygen to like my brain and my blood. Um, so I think I, I do think on a physical level, it's helping, I think on a meta physical level, it's also helping me because I'm having all these sort of empowering. Like it's really empowering to think I'm valuing myself right now to lie down and rest because I know I work hard and then sort of the, the chain reaction of thoughts that happen, stay with me. But this is so profound. Basically. I I'm gonna do this annoying thing. We're all through the podcast. I'm gonna be like, well, Dori, you know this about me, but
Kate: Oh no, I think it's so great.
Niharika : Well, so I'm the child of immigrants. I'm the child child of very hardworking immigrants. And I have inherited their work ethic. I have inherited, um, you know, I have lived in America chasing the like elusive and fake American dream. You know, where all the product of unchecked capitalism. Yes. I'm going there on the podcast. But, um, I feel like when I take a nap and when I wake up, I realize that was something I could do for myself that required no money, just my time and just saying, you're gonna rest. And then when I wake up and then the neural pathways that are created are I have a moment of reflection where I think, oh, well you are doing a lot new haka. You are like working on an LA, um, schedule in Istanbul. You are making films and TV from the other side of the world. It's a real, maybe, maybe this is meditation. I don't know. Well,
Kate: It's, it's interesting because you know, I've learned transcendental meditation and that practice is, you know, two times a day for 20 minutes a day. And I often when I do it and I don't have a consistent practice and I haven't done it in forever, but I'll fall sleep. And, but it's like that. But because it's not the deep sleep, you kind of like, you know, you jolt awake and you're able to kind of resume life a little bit. I, I wanted to know what accommodations do you have to make in order to like, mentally take that pause because sh like stopping in the middle of the day when you're kind of rushing and working. And also you're, you've explained so beautifully, like this, this work ethic that's that you've carried your whole life. Like, was it hard to give yourself permission to take that break? And is it hard to like shut off the emails, put your phone away for a minute, not think about work and family and life and just let your brain and body shut down.
Niharika : Oh yeah. It was like, I felt shame in the beginning. I really, so something had happened where I have had a re a really, really exhausting past couple years. Um, and something had happened earlier this year where I was like, I had like a chronic dry cough that wouldn't go away. And I would, I kept like PCR testing myself, but I think I was just really run down and exhausted. Um, and I also realized that I was getting impatient with my daughter and she's only three. So like, she's a P brain she's gonna annoy me. And I just, so I said, I have to do something. And you know, a lot of my friends here were like, you could need to sleep for like, like you're always messaging us. Um, and across the world, everybody I talk to. And, um, so there, so like, I actually thought I have to do this.
Niharika : And when I first started, I felt shame. Like just embarrassed, like alone in my, like my kid was at school, but I still felt like embarrassed. Like, what is it about like, what is it, what have I been like inculcated with my whole life that made me embarrassed in my own house to like, take a sofa nap for it's only 25 minutes. It's not like I sleep for two hours, but like, um, so then there was shame and then I just, and then I, I felt like, am I wasting time? And then I just forced myself, you know, I thought just gotta do it. Like I, my brain needs to regenerate cells somehow. Um, and now it's just sort of like, and, and, you know, I should also like shout out the fact that I'm very privileged that my daughter has a nanny and she comes and she'll, she, she comes, she drops my kid off at school and then she comes home and she helps out and then she'll go pick up my kid.
Niharika : And so at first I would take the nap when she left the house. Cause I was embarrassed cuz I thought, oh my gosh, like, I don't know. I'm just this like weird old lady. Who's like on a computer, 24 hours a day and on zoom calls and then like sleeping in front of her, on the sofa. Um, and then I told her, she's like a part of our family and just, I'm so grateful for her existence. And one day I told her I'm really tired. And she said, yeah, you never sleep. You need to get a bed and sleep. And then, and then I was like, I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna take a nap right now in front of you. Is that cool? And she was like, I wish you would. She's so sweet. She was like, I wish you would. And now every day she reminds me to power nap. She's like, have you, she says, have you done your power nap? And I'm like, no good reminder. I'm gonna set my alarm now.
Kate: I think it's so interesting. You mentioned like that feeling of shame or like, like giving ourselves this permission to rest and like that's a valid use of our time is especially as you mentioned being, you know, growing up in seeped in capitalism can be really hard. Like it, there is this kind of weird shame that can come along with it and then shame of like, why can't I do it? It's it's we're not conditioned to take care of ourselves in that way.
Niharika : Yeah, I think it's
Doree: It's also, oh, go
Niharika : Ahead. Sorry. Oh, I was just gonna say someone once tried to compliment me and told me I was compulsively productive and I realized, speaking of how we're, we're raised, I think like I need to slow the productivity down a little bit. And that's what I learned.
Doree: I mean, I was gonna say something kind of along those lines, which is like how workaholism is so inextricably linked to capitalism and how we equate being workaholic with like moral value, which is like so fucked. Um, and to kind of try to like start to unlearn. All of that I think is really, really difficult. So I'm really proud of you for like taking that step.
Niharika : Thanks do,
Doree: Yeah. Um, I mean, I feel like we could have had you on the pod at any time over the last four years because whatever you're amazing and like one of my best friends, but the precipitating event for having you on right now was the fact that you directed an amazing three part limited series for Netflix called the principles of pleasure, which really was mind blowing and, um, very educational. I mean, even, you know, for me as a, also almost 45 year old woman, I mean, this comes up a lot in the, in the series, just how ignorant so many people are of anything having to do with sex and their own bodies. Um, so could you give us a, just for the benefit of our listeners, could you give us just a kind of rundown of the show and how you came to be involved and, um, what it was like working on it?
Niharika : Yeah, sure. So, um, it's principles of pleasure, three part documentary series streaming now on Netflix and, um, it's about, so it's interesting. It's about pleasure for women and non-binary people, but in a lot of ways, um, it's, that's a misdirect cuz it's about so much cuz once you talk about pleasure, once you open Pandora's box of deconstructing, what pleasure means for us, it's about so much more it's about consent. It's about bodily autonomy. It's about health and wellness. It's about the societal constructs, including unchecked capitalism and like grind culture that keep us from loving ourselves. So I think on a very surface level, it is a very straight forward, open, mature conversation about sex ed, which I think everybody needs, you know, no matter how you identify, but I think particularly women in non-binary people, I just wanna say actually there's a lot of people left out of the conversation, but what we focused on were women in non and binary people, certainly the trans population is left out of the conversation, bipo people, um, you know, people of lower income brackets are left out of the conversation.
Niharika : The, the sex and pleasure conversation only really happens with, um, or four really privileged people. So we wanted kind of draw people in. And I think as the mother of, of, you know, a young person who, who identifies as female now, I thought to myself, it's so important for her to, you know, obviously she's not watching the series cuz like I said, she's a P brain she's too young. I hope it's cool that I call my kid a P brain like, and we permit it. Yeah, yeah. Um, but it, it taught me so much in directing the series. I a, I learned so much, but it helped sort of, you know, let's talk about shame. You know, I am, I am a person who feels shame napping and, and like my preferred sartorial style is a, like a button down every day. Like my husband jokes, I basically sleep in button downs, you know, like I am a very buttoned up person.
Niharika : So to have to confront my lack of knowledge about my own body, you know, was really fast and something that I hope I can have open conversations with with my daughter, you know, because actually she deserves, she deserves pleasure. Everybody deserves pleasure, you know, and I think, um, it's given me this new kind of understanding as to how to communicate with her. So that is, that is like not, I don't even think that I'm giving you an IOT of what the series is because it covers so much. Um, real quick episode, one is about, is sort of like relearning sex. Ed episode two is about the brain as one of the biggest sort of players in the sex and pleasure game. Um, and then episode three is about what, how we, how we sort of approach relationships with other people. Um, it was a labor of love.
Niharika : I was, I was brought on the amazing production company. The front actually created the series, um, it's fronted by fall Maro. Um, and then I was brought on as the series director and I worked with amazing show runner, Mona punch, all the whole team was phenomenal. It was a dream. And the series was made entirely by women in non-binary people, which was the best experience of my life creatively. Mm. And you know, it, I think we have had so many open and honest conversations about ourselves, our bodies, how we're relating, you know, I, I think everybody changed throughout the process of making the series. Um, of course like the fun fact is we made this series during like deep, deep end, end of like end of non vaccinated times. COVID Ooh. Yeah. So I moved, uh, my daughter Goldie into my parents' house in Ws falls, New York. And I preproduced, I basically made like through production. I made the show at my parents dining table. So my parents, my like my very, like, they were very good sports, but my, my old Indian parents heard me having like very long zoom calls about of us.
Kate: Has your, have your parents watched the series?
Niharika : They have. Okay. So, so the series dropped, uh, March 22nd when they were visiting with my brother and his family. And I was like, Hey, you guys are together. Why don't you want the pleasure? They did not do that. No, no, they did not watch it together. My parents came back and they watched it. They did watch it. My mom texted and was like, we watched it. I think your father passed out a few times, but we're very proud of you. You know? Like I wish I could, I wish that I was like more evolved and maybe my daughter will be this way with her father. But like I wish I was evolved enough to be like, yeah, dad, well now you know about the juice spot instead. I was just like, dad, I hope you didn't earmuffs. It was, it was God, it's, it's fairly graphic, but it's, it's um, I'm, I'm very proud of them for watching it and they love me and support me.
Kate: What did it bring up for you personally in your own, uh, hangups or I don't know if insecurities is the right word, but complex feeling about your own sexuality and pleasure.
Niharika : Ah, well insecurities is the right word. Um, first of all, I thought I, I thought my body was broken. Like I didn't understand, you know, like speaking of the GPO, I had heard of it and I was like, oh, everybody, like, everybody knows how to like work their G spot. So like, this is not a huge spoiler if listeners have not watched the series, but you know, we sort of deconstruct actually what the GPO is and it's not like a inside everybody's vagina. Um, and I thought there was like, I thought I was missing the magic button inside my vagina. And um, I think understanding that there is nothing wrong with me and there's nothing wrong with you. Like, I don't even know Kate anything about, you know, you're sex life or your wellness or your pursuit of pleasure, but I know there's nothing wrong with you, you know?
Niharika : And any, you know what I mean? Like I'm like a, you know, in the same way that I took, like NAPSA self care to like a metaphysical level. I think one thing that I hope people take away from this series is just more compassion for them selves. And if you have compassion for yourself, you're gonna have it for people you don't even know. You know? And I think that's a thing there's so much, we don't know. There's so much the cards are so stacked against, you know, 99% of the world with like, you know, systemic structures of oppression that, you know, actually when it comes to our bodies. So, um, I think that is something that, that I think just finally feeling like, again, coming back to shame, you know, like I don't have to feel shame for, you know, being who I am or sort of, uh, no, not feeling things. I thought people felt not doing things the way I thought people do did it. Um, and I, and I'm, I made my husband watch it with me, which is like possibly the most important thing. And, um, you know, he's a pretty Doree, you know, mark, he's like a very sense of lovely guy. And he kept looking over to me and being like, wow, like not, wow. Like, wow, not, wow, there's a clip. But like,
Doree: But that would be OK,
Niharika : But, but like, wow, like just with like empathy and compassion, because we tried to connect the dots on how hard it is for people to grasp pleasure. And, and for me, by the way, pleasure comes in the form of napping for me, you know, it does not always have to be like multi orgasmic events. It could be again, self care exactly what you guys do and you guys to about and you guys support.
Doree: Yeah. And I think decoupling self care from the structures of capitalism is one of the challenges, both, you know, that we all have, I think internally, but also like on this podcast. Um, so I do really appreciate, you know, the fact that you said like a nap is a, is free. Like it's something that it's accessible to pretty much everyone. Um, so yeah, so I really appreciate that, um, Niharika can, and you talk a little bit about your career path because, and like, this is where I think having known you for like more than 25 years, I just have like an inherent advantage over most of the guests. Like in terms of like knowing things I can ask you, but, but like, it wasn't like when we, you were in college, you were like, I'm gonna be a documentary filmmaker. Like it didn't, that seemed like something that kind of developed over time with a few like career. I don't wanna call them like false starts, but like different career experimentation. Yeah. Let's say, um, and you know, I think you and I both identify as late bloomers in a lot of ways. And I'd love for you to kind of talk about how that manifests in your professional life and sort of like how you, how the winding path you took has led you here.
Niharika : Yes. Um, I would love to talk about that because I think, well, Dora, this is why I loved your book, uh, like confronting late blooming and, and, and owning it because I think I'm on that journey. I've been on that journey to, you know, we went to, we met, uh, am I allowed to like, like my favorite story about us? Am I allowed to just like drop human bingo on the world right now?
Doree: Yes. Human bingo. Let's tell everyone,
Kate: Oh my gosh, I am ready.
Niharika : OK. Picture it west Philadelphia 95.
Doree: Yep.
Niharika : Okay. Yes. Wow. Okay. We were in the quad
Doree: Of, which is like the big, like where a lot of freshmen at Penn live.
Niharika : Yes. Oh yes. I have to tell. Yes. So we were at we're at Penn. Um, we were, we were in the quad, the big housing, you know, um, dorm store
Doree: Was freshman orientation. So classes had not started yet, but you know, we were doing all these kinds of like,
Niharika : And you had to,
Doree: You had us watch the sixth sense.
Niharika : Oh yeah. I didn't do that. Cause I thought it would scare me just FYI.
Doree: I think I like walked by it anyway. Sorry. Please proceed.
Niharika : So I was, I was very grumpy. I got to Penn and was just, did not. And, and by the way, like, um, this, this story, this is like a, um, this is the first step in me talking about late blooming because I think actually going to Penn affected my bloom image in a lot of ways. Um, my late plumage, um, so we human bingo orientation activity. I was a GRMP I did not want to go out and meet people. You know, I had had, I was coming off of like, you know, a great experience in high school, in, in Poughkeepsie, in like in the nineties, you know, we would like sneak into Vaser bars. We would drink Budweisers in the woods. Um, we would hang out. We were like, you know, it was one of those like circle of friends moments. Um, and then I got to Penn and I felt totally lost, felt like a tiny fish in a massive ocean. So human bingo. I'm like fine. I'll do human bingo. I put on my GenCos I put on my wallet chain. Um, and then I went and you know, you had, you had like a, a piece of paper fill out and you had to like find someone with black hair or find someone with this. Anyway, it's the end of human bingo. And I see this human where I'm like, I love her. I want to be her friend.
Niharika : It was Doree Shafrir. She had like, she had like a wood known writer from reality bites, like pseudo shag haircut. Am I right in this, in
Doree: This? Yes. And I had dye my hair red in the hotel bathroom, like my, my parents and I had driven down from Boston. We stayed in a hotel the night before we like moved into the dorm and I died my hair in the hotel. My mom was like, are you insane? Like, there's like Auburn dye everywhere.
Niharika : It was so Cool.
Doree: So cool. I, I believe it. I love this so much. I was also wearing turquoise nail Polish that I had bought that summer on my trip to London. Oh, that's I, I was late.
Niharika : I said that was the very first sentence. Okay. Now, Doree, you're not gonna remember this. I'm gonna sound like a psycho stocker, but the very first thing I ever said to you was I love your nail Polish, cuz it was, you know, in the, like in the like hazy golden hour of west Philadelphia, it looked baby blue to me. And I was like, this is a revelation who, who is this human? I love her. And you were like, I
Doree: Was like, finally, someone in this like fratty, like school of like really like, I don't know people who I got there. And I was like, I do not relate to you at all. I was like, finally, someone gets me, you know, one day. And, and I,
Niharika : And I was also like I had come from, you know, I hadn't dye my hair in the sink, but I used to cut my own hair as people who used to know me, no, I still kind of cut my bangs. I have very different hair from what I had at university. I had like a, a short, like spike. Yeah. It was, it was, you
Doree: Did die at one point. It was like, it was blonde at one point
Niharika : It was, it was platinum blonde at one point. Um, yeah, so it was, it was very, it was definitely like nineties. It was the nineties, the dream of the nineties was alive with us. And so I saw Doree and, and you said my name's Doree, but I had had such sheltered existence. I never heard the name Doree before. So I'm like walking back to my door and being like, did she say Dore? Did she, did she say, do DOR Dorene? And like, there were no iPhones. I was like, how am I ever gonna find her again?
Doree: We had the Facebook, we had the freshman Facebook
Niharika : We had, we had the freshman Facebook, which is literally an analog book with black and white photos of people's faces.
Kate: So good. You would circle people you were interested in.
Niharika : Yeah. So, um, I don't know. How do we find each other again? Do
Doree: You know? We, I feel like we weren't, we didn't become super close freshman year. Like we kind of like circled each other. Yeah. I feel like. And then sophomore year, were you living with, when you were living with Irene, right? Weren't you, you guys
Niharika : Lived together. Oh, right. We, well, no, we lived sort of like one floor away. Right. So yeah. So then we,
Doree: Oh,
Niharika : That's right.
Doree: So yeah, so we, so we met freshman year and, but then I would say by like sophomore, junior year, we were very good friends and then senior year we lived together. Um, and yeah. And the rest is kind of history.
Niharika : Yeah. And, and I think it's interesting also to, to discuss the, like the concept of late blooming and, and like meandering to our like special purpose because, um, I, when I lived with you, I just thought you had it all figured out. I mean, you did have it all figured out. I know internally you were probably feeling different ways, but it was really inspiring living with you and just sort of seeing what a powerhouse you were, but I chant embarrass you more. Um, but it was, it was, yeah,
Niharika : I think. Okay. So, so me getting into filmmaking, you know, when I was in high school, I got my dad's can in a one. Um, my dad's like a brilliant photographer, but he's also an engineer by trade. Um, so I think I gained his love of photography. Um, but I also think I just didn't, you know, I went, I went, Penn is a very pre-professional school. Um, I did not, you know, I, I didn't understand how to channel myself. I didn't understand that being a storyteller could take so many different forms. I think if you knew me, you knew that I was like, um, I was, yeah, I was a storyteller. Um, but I didn't know what to do or how to channel that. So when I left school, you know, I feel like everybody else, you know, like mark one of our other BFFs, he was like, I'm gonna be an architect.
Niharika : I'm gonna be a master architect. And, you know, I was just in awe of my friends who were like, first of all, brilliant, but also really going after in a laserlike way, what they wanted. And, um, I didn't know, you know, I left and I was, I, I became a girl Friday for, uh, hair stylist, which was an amazing experience after I graduated university, you know, in New York, York city, um, nine 11 happened. And that was sort of like a profound experience kind of splitting the city open. And it was really hard to find jobs, especially when you kind of left with like a religion, religion and psychology major. Um, so I didn't know what to do. And then I, um, you know, for me it felt like years until I found documentaries, but I actually became like an apprentice editor pretty early on. Maybe like when I was 23, you know, but it felt like, oh my God, I'm like the oldest intern in the world.
Niharika : And I, I started working, um, for an amazing film company, insignia films, um, as sort of an apprentice paid intern, whatever you wanna call it, loading tapes on the avid. And I learned what, um, film editing was. So I followed that path for a very long time. It was a film editor in documentaries, but also in like reality TV, like my super sweet 16 and maid and engaged in underage and all that stuff. And that, that was like a brilliant experience. But, um, I never quite felt like it was my special purpose. And I also, again, like going back to, you know, being so inspired by my immigrant parents who, who are such hard workers and, you know, just it's so practical. I always thought, I felt like, again, the, like the conversation of shame comes up, like, who am I? I like, who am I to Naval gay and think about what my career should be like, I need to work.
Niharika : I need to earn money. Like editing is a very reliable job. It's almost like engineering, but with photos, I think in terms of like blue image, like I think a constant, a constant sort of internal monologue I have. And I don't know if it's because I've like heard it from people or because I've created in my head is who am I? Who am I to take to say, I wanna direct now, who am I to just totally step outside of the edit room and do something else. And I think that is something that gets in the way of me and a lot of people, especially women, you know, bipo people like, who am I to want this? Who am I to wanna be in ambitious? I think like, I don't know, like somewhere along the line, it was telegraphed to me subliminally that I wasn't the person that there were only a certain number of people who were able to say they wanted to be film directors because, you know, they got that like super eight camera when they were five years old.
Niharika : And, um, you know, it was something that, that they were destined to do. And, and, and that wasn't my narrative, but my narrative is also something I own now because like the stuff I make, you know, prince principles, a pleasure, you know, I did another se or another special on mental health. Like, everything I make now is I put like my life and my experience and my soul into it. And I realize like, comp, it always comes back to compassion. Like, can I make something that makes people feel better about themselves and makes them nicer to other people? Cause I think, you know, again, like, I, I really wanna like check myself and say, I have had a lot of privilege. You know, I, you know, I went to a fancy school. I, I did have choices and I had options, but I do think in society, especially, um, you know, for women who want to do big things is some voice somewhere that's always saying, Hmm, really? Are you the one?
Kate: Okay, well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. We are back
Doree: You, you did skip over one, one line of your resume that I just would like to briefly touch on.
Niharika : Oh yes.
Doree: Which is being an MTV VJ.
Kate: Oh my gosh. Yes. This is the most amazing, just like fact that is at the end of your TV. VJ is first of all, the dream job of every member of generation X. So you've accomplished that.
Niharika : It was, it was wild. Yeah. Okay. So this is a great example. I don't think I fully enjoyed it a because I was, I thought, oh, well, is this a job? Is career? I don't know. And I, like, I was editing a feature length documentary for Showtime at the time about a human rights activist, which was like also a phenomenal life changing experience. But I would like be in the edit room, crying, like watching footage of like, you know, someone who led a very like tortured life. And then I would like rush up to the studio and like do like two hours of glam and then be like, Justin Timberlake is bringing sexy back and I felt, I felt insane. And now I'm at a stage in my life where I can enjoy, I can enjoy like sort of the absurdity juxtaposition, paradox, whatever you wanna call it of that.
Niharika : And just be like, this is me, this is fully me. I can make a film about a human rights activist and I can also, you know, be a VJ for MTV world. But at the time I didn't appreciate, like, I, I appreciate it. I didn't, um, I don't think I fully owned it. And, and um, yeah, so I was, I was a PJ for MTV world MTV. They was a channel that was launched for people of the diaspora. They did, they did it for the, um, um, Asian, like different subsets subsets of the Asian diaspora. And yeah, it was, it was the bonkers wild time. And, um, I don't know, my, um, my, you know, the whole time I'm like, what's this really gonna lead to? I mean, who really, like what happens to a VJ? Do they act, actually have careers? And like, my male counterpart is this like brilliantly talented actor named Kar. Who's like in a CBS series right now. And he was in pitch. Perfect. Meanwhile like am. Yeah. So, um, so that was a wild time. And again, like not to keep, I guess the reason why I keep banging this drum is because one thing I wanna teach anybody younger than me, um, or older than me. Um, my kid, anybody is we really need to like remove of that voice that is like, like, who do I think I am?
Kate: Here's my question. Can the two of you just kind of speak to your friendship and how you have sustained it since 1995? I mean, that's coming on almost 30 years of friendship.
Niharika : Crazy. That's insane. Um, can I, can I say, can I say a couple top line things do
Doree: Yeah. Go for it.
Niharika : I think our friendship has changed- it's been this substance that has changed in, in over the years. Um, and I think one of the things I actually think, I feel like in past, I've always loved you, but I think in the past,
Doree: Did I don't you
Niharika : Don't, you feel like our like joint IVF journeys have like added this new LA new dimension to our like
Doree: Yeah.
Niharika : Our sisterhood.
Doree: Yeah. And I mean, our kids have the same birth,
Niharika : Our wow IVF kids,
Doree: Our RVF babies have the same birthday a year apart, Which is wild. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's like,
Doree: It's all kind of, of a piece of like what you were talking about, you know, being on the Eve of 45 and kind of feeling like coming into your own professionally and having all these revelations. And I think that like a lot of, a lot of people that I was friends with in college or my early twenties, like we have not evolved in the same way, you know, like we are in very different places now in our forties and, and I'm not friends with them anymore. And I feel like our friendship path like meed a bit, but like we have ended up in the same place. And I feel like it's a combination of like shared experiences. I do think shared values also. Like you're really funny. You make me laugh and you know, there's just like
Niharika : We have immigrant dads with selective hearing. We,
Doree: We have immigrant dads with selective hearing. We both have wacky moms. Um, yeah. And you know, I just, I, I think that, I, I think you're right, like IVF was a challenge for both of us, um, in a way that did bring us closer together.
Niharika : I think I also just have this theory that a lot of my, my friendships with women are like romantic comedies and like, just like more like epic movies than, you know, my, my romance with my husband. I do feel like, you know, this, if someone made the movie about like me and Doree, it is this like, beautiful. Like there is this act structure to it and, and
Doree: It's 27. Dresses
Niharika : Just 27 dog Collars. Um,
Doree: You insist you were not wearing a dog collar human bingo, but that is not my memory, but whatever, it's fine.
Niharika : I, I had, like, I had a very elegant, um, thin red patent leather dog collar that I would wear
Doree: Kate's face.
Kate: I'm dying. No, it's just so peak. Like, it's just so, I mean, I had perfect of
Doree: I mean I had a drain chain, like, I mean, like
Kate: What? Yes.
Niharika : Um, but I do, I do feel like I got it. I do feel like I got it from like trash and Ville sometime in like 90, 97. No, not trash. And Bob, where would we go on? Like St. Mark's. I feel like St
Doree: There were just all those stores that like didn't have names.
Niharika : Yeah. Where, where you're just like leather wristband. Um, I, I do, but I do, you know, I, the wallet chain was like omnipresent in, in like relationship from the word go. Yeah. So
Doree: That's accurate.
Niharika : Is,
Doree: I mean, I, you know, I think it's a cliche, but I think that in our case, it's true where like, you know, Niharika and I don't talk every day and sometimes weeks or even months go by where we're not in contact, but I know that like, I can reach out to her about anything at any time. And also we just, like, we do just pick up right where we left off. Mm. Um,
Niharika : Yeah, there's no form, there is no formality. I feel like we picked up as if we were sitting in our living room. Yeah. In Philadelphia in 1999.
Doree: Yeah. Watching the exfil
Niharika : With Kathy
Doree: Evans, with Cathy and Jake, um,
Niharika : And, and Becca felt
Doree: And be, yeah. Um, all right. Niharika, we do have to wrap. I mean, I was, I feel like we could talk about, you know, we could talk for hours, but it's very late in, I stumble now and we should let you go, but before we let you go, yes. Can you talk about your skin care routine?
Niharika : OK. Well, Yes, I can. I have, I have like chronic debilitating eczema. So,
Niharika : We start with a base of that. Um, and I really don't have, I will say I've developed a routine now, because again, maybe it was like the nap revelations, but I'm taking way better care of my skin. I used to just literally be like, um, washing things off with soap and I'm putting aware of like, um, Aveno or something like horribly thick on my face, but I am now I have a morning, like post, post shower. I use rosewater toner all over my face. And then I have a vitamin C serum that I put under my eyes.
Niharika : And then sometimes I, a little bit of, um, and this is like, this is me. This is me being like, I value you haka. Let's, let's get into that cucumber cream. Um, then I do a little bit, a little dab of keels, cucumber, eye cream, and then, um, and then I laughter you know, all over my face. So there's a, there's a multistep skincare routine. And then at night I just wash everything off with, um, like I have a makeup remover, Turkish makeup remover, and I just take it all off. Um, and I don't do anything crazy at night cause I have very, very sensitive skin. Like if I look at a skincare product that I do not know, like even just look at it, I get, I feel like I get eczema everywhere. So God it's, it's my cross to bear.
Doree: We get a lot of listeners who write in about eczema. It's sounds extremely challenging.
Niharika : It's very challenging. Um, and I do think like book ending this with the nap, like honestly, sleep makes my eczema go away. I also, I have stopped like I've been doing like elimination stuff, so, mm. I don't eat dairy now or that much like starch, cuz I felt like it was giving me eczema everywhere.
Doree: Oh. As a fellow eczema sufferer. But not to the extent that you have it. I, yes, it's, it's, it's such a challenge. Anyway, This was so fun. Thank you for coming on the pod. Um, where can our listeners find you follow your work, et cetera?
Niharika : Um, well I have a private Instagram account so nobody can really find me anywhere. Um, but you can watch principles of pleasure. You can go. I do wanna, I wanna mention to everybody, if they are interested, intrigued by what we've talked about, they should definitely watch the series. But also we have, um, some of the experts from the show have curated some resources and there is a website to go to. If you wanna learn more, if you want tools to talk to your children about their bodies, you can go to www principles of pleasure.org. Um, and there's a resources page. So I feel very passionately about, um, spreading the love on that, including
Doree: Forever 35, former forever 35 guest. Emily Nagoski
Niharika : Yeah. Emily Nagoski she's the best.
Doree: She's amazing. Best. Yeah. Um, well thank you. This is so fun. Talk to for like an hour. So that was the best part also.
Kate: Can I just say, I love that you called Doree Dor because that is the nickname listeners have given her are on this podcast. That, and it's just so sweet to hear it from someone who's known you for so long Doree.
Doree: Well, Niharika also calls me Dodo.
Niharika : I call her Dodo another,
Doree: Another great nickname.
Niharika : I, her Dora call her Dodo and Kate. It's so nice to meet you. I feel like I know you.
Kate: I Know likewise. I'm I'm so sad. We've never met IRL, but hopefully someday. Yeah. When I come to Istanbul is really what's
Doree: Gonna happen. We do forever 35 in Istanbul.
Niharika : Please do Turkey.
Kate: Doree. Have you ever been to Turkey? I've never been
Doree: No, I've never been okay. I really wanna go again.
Kate: I do too. We can come watch Goldie while you nap.
Niharika : Oh man. That's
Doree: A great idea.
Kate: Honestly.
Doree: There you go.
Kate: Yeah. That's how we're gonna do it.
Doree: All right, Kate,
Kate: I loved having Niharika and getting to watch the two of you like be, be old buddies really made my heart sore. Every time she called you Dor, I was like, I'm dying. I love it so much.
Doree: Aww like, that's just
Kate: Something fun about meeting a friend's a long time friend. Like you just feel like you're another part of the, of them and it's really special. I just loved it also. She's amazing.
Doree: She's like, she's just amazing. So I'm so glad that you got to meet her. Well, Kate, Well, Kate, How did your mental health slash dog walk go?
Kate: Okay. I did it this morning. I didn't want to. And I was like, I know I owe it to you dogs. You need a walk, you need to be free in the world and to poop on other people's grass. And so I did it. It's, it's, it's just the kind of thing where I have to like get up and do it and not sit down after I drop my kids off at school, I have to like immediately walk in the door and then do my morning walk with the dogs. Cause I actually really love it. It's I love to look at the flowers. I love to smell the beautiful, fresh Southern California air that we're having right now with the Jasmine. Like I just, yes. So I, I kind of did it, but I need to, I need to keep just making my ass move That first thing in the morning.
Doree: Yeah. That's the hard part, you know, I so hard. Went on a walk with Henry this morning. Um, Henry's nanny is sick. He's also on spring break from preschool. Um, so Matt and I have been splitting childcare duties and it's supposed, it's gonna be really hot here in LA today through, through the next couple days. And so I was like, oh, I gotta take him on a walk this morning or else it's gonna be like way too hot later. So I hear you. I'm just like, but it's hard to like motivate, you know, like first thing in the morning,
Kate: But then it's incredibly pleasant.
Doree: Yeah. I'm, it's also like a
Kate: Beautiful time of day.
Doree: Totally. I'm really glad that we did it. Um, so yeah. So what about this week, Kate? What do
Kate: You got going on? Okay. This week is a real Kate Spencer special. So, oh, I have this like basket under my bedside table where I store all the pills that I take. So vitamin, you know, the Prozac and Wellbutrin and I bought four, I bought a month's wor I, okay. I have a one week pill pack that I normally pill pack. What's it called? Pill container. What are those things called?
Doree: Um, pill organizer.
Kate: Thank you, Doree. You're welcome. I have a one week pill organizer that I use, but I hate adding to it so much that I bought myself three more. So I could put in a month, you talked about
Doree: In, uh, the forever 35 newsletter,
Kate: Right? Right. Guess who took the basket out from under her bedside table? Put all the bottles of pills and vitamins onto the dining room table. And then for two weeks has let them sit there and hasn't put any of those pills into the containers and has instead just like opened the bottle, taken their pill and put it back to out on the dining room table and just like, let the bottle sit there while we eat meals. And yeah. So
Doree: What, who
Kate: Would
Doree: Said that that would
Kate: Be, oh me surprise, surprise. Twist
Doree: The story. Surprise. I am surprised.
Kate: So I have to do this. I don't know why I thought I had come up with this. Great. And then it turned out, it was like the worst plan and now I'm in hell with these pills and they just, they're just sitting there staring at me. Ugh. And they won't go away. And so, yeah. And part of me thinks that maybe I was mistaken because it's annoying to open every little pill, container,
Doree: Lid. I don't know. What did I do? What did I do? So,
Kate: So that's where I'm at. So that's what I gotta do this week. I gotta get those pills into the organizer and get them off the dining room table.
Doree: Okay. I, I think this is doable for you.
Kate: It's been, they've been sitting there for two weeks, just two weeks and I'm talking like 30 bottles because part of me needs to like throw out the things that I don't use or that are old anyway. Uh, it's embarrassing,
Doree: You know, Kate, I saw a, um, cartoon the other day and I'm going to forget who did it, or really be able to say anything substantive about it, but it was basically about how you, how one, um, leaves flowers in their V until long after they have died. Oh. Which is the thing that I do.
Kate: I do this too.
Doree: Yeah. So I don't know. I was just sort of reminded of that. Like sometimes there's just things in the house that like become part of the scenery and you just sort of like, it's true, so true. You just accept them. And then when you actually stop to think about them, you're like, wait, why have I had those dead flowers in a vase for five weeks? That's like, that's actually kinda gross. That's.
Kate: I mean, it's like the piles that just become like permanent fixtures. Oh
Doree: Totally. If someone walked into my office right now, they would be like, do you know that you have literal piles? I, or like the size of your son of like Crap. And you'd
Kate: Be like, yeah, I do. I do know.
Doree: I know. I know. It's I know exactly what's in those piles. Okay.
Kate: Yeah. I can tell you where to find everything in those piles. Oh, um, the worst anyway. Okay.
Doree: I was gonna do some hip and hamstring yoga. I think I, it, once we are also recording this a little earlier than we normally do,
Kate: That's right. I've got a schlep to New York, so
Doree: We're, so I have a couple of days left technically in my week to, um, do some more. But I do feel like I need to do some more, just been feeling a little, a little stiff lately, if you will.
Kate: I understand that. That's a that's yeah. I'm not feeling my knees are really creaking it up a storm right now.
Doree: Oh, okay. We'll get nice. Um, you know what I wanna bring back this week in my life, my nightly todo list, brain dump, you
Kate: Know, one of a classic early Doree self care practice from when we've start. You were doing this before forever 35. You were a nighttime notepad scribble.
Doree: Yes. And I haven't been doing it lately and I do feel like I like, I I'm sort of like disoriented when I wake up.
Kate: Yeah. Cuz you don't have that thing to, of roll over and look at,
Doree: I need to just like back do a brain dump and I think I'll feel more settled going to sleep.
Kate: Mm.
Doree: So that's my intention for the week.
Kate: Now I have a question for you.
Doree: Okay. Do you I'm listening. Do
Kate: You still do yoga toes?
Doree: Oh my God. Kate. I cannot believe you just asked me that.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: I'll tell you why I had stopped doing yoga toes for more than a year.
Kate: Why? A
Doree: Very long time. Okay.
Kate: Literally
Doree: Three days go. I was like, oh wow. Like my third and fourth toes are really like crowded together lately. I need to go back to doing yoga toes and I've been doing them every night.
Kate: Shut up. Yes. Stop.
Doree: I was, that's really
Kate: Thinking about it lately where I was like, is Doree still
Doree: Yoga too? I mean, I'm back, I'm back doing them. I'd stopped doing them. Not like not for any real reason. I think I was just sort of like whatever. Yeah. It wasn't like, I was like, I hate this. Like I, and then you fall outta practice. Yeah. You fall outta practice. And then I actually now I'm like, oh, I think they were actually making a difference. So I'm back on the yoga toe train. I'm happy to report
Kate: Just getting back in bed, just pulling out those yoga toes and you're popping them on. Yes. Ooh. And they hurt. They, they really do stretch out your toes. They
Doree: Do stretch things out. Yeah, they do. They do
Kate: Well. I'm so glad we got that update, Tori.
Doree: Thank you, Kate. Thank you for asking.
Kate: Well maybe do you yoga toes and get that, uh, that nightly to-do list in order again? Yeah.
Doree: I mean, my life will be so well, will just feel so different. Um, well Kate, I think that wraps up the show. Does it? Not
Kate: That wraps up the show Doree.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Uh, well, forever 35 is hosted and produced by Doris and Kate Spencer. And it's produced edit by Sam Huno. Sam re is our project manager. Our network partner is a cast and we thank all of you for being here.
Doree: Bye everyone.