Episode 214: Grief is Love with Marisa Renee Lee
“We sometimes don’t realize all that we’re carrying until we’re forced to stop and sit down and really reflect on it and put it together in a way that it’s helpful to somebody else.
”
- Marisa Renee Lee
Kate is newly obsessed with a serum and Doree has more to share on the Sephories sale. Then, Marisa Renee Lee (Grief Is Love) joins them to talk about grief in a capitalist, racist, sexist society; how she actively decides to choose love; and how you can be vulnerable when you’ve already been made vulnerable by your life circumstances.
Photo Credit: David Needleman
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Transcript
Kate: Well, hello and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir,
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: Welcome one in all, you can visit our website for 35 podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. We also have a new offering, which is a shop my shelf page, which is very exciting. I try to remember what our address is, shop my shelf.us dot slash forever35. Is that right?
Doree: Um, yes, that is correct.
Kate: So basically you can now go to shop shelf.us/forever 35, and you can find links to just about everything we mention on each episode. Um, we've got Sephora sale links. We're gonna be adding a lot more skincare and beauty to stuff, skincare and beauty stuff to this as we keep developing it. But, um, please do so that
Doree: Also it's like, feel like a lot of people often ask us for like, what are the podcasts like favorite moisturizers? And there's been like no central place to put all that stuff. It's just all been very fragmented. And so what I like about shop shelf is we have shelves that are like, that can be like, Doree's favorite serums, Kate's favorite face wash, like that kind of stuff. Um, so yeah, so if you head over there, you're gonna find a lot more stuff, sort of, um, Sorted differently
Kate: Kate's butt care shelf
Doree: Kate's butt care shelf, which is there's so many problem on it.
Kate: It's packed to the, to the cheeks. So packed.
Doree: Yeah. Wow.
Kate: Packed to the cheeks A little weird. I know I, a little weird cheeks.
Doree: That's like, it like reminds me of like, when I ask my almost three year old son, do you feel like you have poop in your butt? What does he say? That's kind of the image that I'm getting.
Kate: I know, I know. I, I also ask my kids if they feel like they've poop in their butt. That was a thing I used to say to them. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it goes well.
Doree: Yeah. And oh, and that's so Well
Kate: Be sure to ask me that. I'll give you an answer.
Doree: OK. Do you right now feel like you have poop in your butt?
Kate: Nope.
Doree: OK. Nope. We do.
Kate: Uh, we do get some affiliate revenue from clicks over there, uh, just for full transparency. Um, but it's a really great, like, it's been really nice to just kind of organize all the things we either talk about or get asked about into one central location. So also
Doree: Think, just think about it as a super easy way to support the podcast and to support the work that we put into the podcast and the work we put into making the recommendations. So good
Kate: Call. Cause all you gotta do is click and all you
Doree: Gotta is click. It's like no skin off your back.
Kate: Yeah. Just give us a click. Um, and of course story we can be found on social media on Twitter at forever 35 pod and Instagram at for 35 podcast. And um, there's also a large community of listeners on Facebook where on the main group, the password is serums.
Doree: Indeed. All of that is true. And you can sign up for our newsletter@foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com slash newsletter. We have a new issue going out tomorrow. What will be the recommended product in Kate's Korner tune in?
Kate: I don't know yet, although I will say I have been really liking the Jones road. Cool gloss. Oh. They sent us these like kind of shimmery lip glosses that I have been enjoying. Okay. So maybe that,
Doree: Maybe that, Okay. So
Kate: I don't know. I don't know yet. I haven't decided
Doree: Also a reminder that you can subscribe to my newsletter. Now we're talking at Doree.substack.com and the conversations over there are just popping off.
Kate: Well, you, you inspire Popp this, you know what I mean?
Doree: Thank
Kate: You. Is that a weird thing to say? I feel like you do inspire pop in this. Well, Doree, you know, speaking of serums, I think I've been mentioning this serum like every episode and you know what that means, right?
Doree: I mean, look, when you get enthusiastic about something,
Kate: It means it's in my cart. Yeah. And it means the inevitable is about to happen. I am about to click by on something. And so I just wanted to give a little shout out, I guess, if you will, to, this is clinical active serum.
Doree: Mm.
Kate: I don't want to speak in hyperbole, which is based how I live my life. And so I, I wanna, I always, I'm trying to try to be wary of that, but this stuff is freaking amazing.
Doree: Now, what is it about this serum that has really just like Spoken to you
Kate: Here is what I have noticed. I've only used this a handful of times at night, um, before bed. And I use this as my only serum with then, you know, moisturizer and I have noticed an immediate brightness to my skin and that's brightness feels like such a vague amorphous term, like brightness, like
Doree: What,
Kate: Except when you see it in action. And then you're like, oh, I get it. Mm. And this stuff does that. And yeah. And you know, and I have a, there's another product. I like the Jani. Um, Bioclear lotion that also kind of does this a similar, has a similar effect on my skin where I put it on. And I just notice immediately the next day, my skin looks a little bit brighter. Um, I've also noticed with this is clinical, is that it's been, I've had a, I have a couple ES. Okay. And it's been very kind of fast acting in helping with those.
Doree: Wow. Okay.
Kate: So I might bite the bullet if I can find a discount code somewhere and buy it, or I might like beg the people at is clinical to send me a bottle since I am technically
Doree: Wait, remind me how
Kate: Media person you, How did I come
Doree: To this? Yeah.
Kate: The person I have seen for facials is a big, is clinical fan. She had worked with the brand and still really loves it and believes in the, the products and had given me a sample. And I was like, okay. I mean, sure. I'll try it because I've always because is clinical is one of those brands I've always wanted to try, but because the price points so high, I just like turn and walk away. Now I have this little sample and this sample's really doing its job. So I look, I'm feeling the pull. I'm gonna keep playing around with the sample, but I'm, I know I've talked about this product a lot, but it, like, it's having such a noticeable impact on my skin. And I feel like so often I use things and there's nothing. Mm. Anyway, do, before we introduce our guest, should we just mention that it is the Sephora sale, right?
Doree: Yeah. It was just going to mention it. Um, so go ahead, mention it.
Kate: Well, consider it mentioned the Sephora sale happening right now, and you can find our, like we mentioned up top, you can find some of our favorite se items at our shop shelf shop shelf, us slash five. I'm probably gonna buy something because it feels like I can't not buy something.
Doree: Mm.
Kate: Like, can you make it through a, for sale without getting anything?
Doree: I mean, you know, I think there's a different, there's like a few different kind of strategies for approaching a Sephora sale. There's the refill strategy where you're just like, you know what, I'm just gonna be very practical. I'm gonna go in. I'm just gonna get refills of the stuff that I need and get out. There's the experimenter strategy where you're like, this is an opportunity for me to try out some things that I've been wanting to try, whether it's care,
Kate: That
Doree: Strategy
Kate: Make
Doree: Et cetera. And then, then there's the splurge strategy, which is I'm gonna get that big ticket item that I've had my eye on for a while. Like the Dyson air wrap or the new face, you know,
Kate: Or that's Dr. Dennis Gross, um, lady
Doree: Late mass mask. Exactly. Like things that rarely go on sale that are like a big purchase. And here is the Sephora sale ready to take your money. Those are in my mind, those are the three Sephora sale strategies. Of course you can mix and match, but you know, I feel like you're a, you're a refiller and experimenter or a splurger generally,
Kate: Oh my God, this is like any Agram, but Sephora, you know, which one are you?
Doree: Well, Kate as discussed, you are a exp an experimenter.
Kate: I think I am an experimenter. And I will say one thing that's shocking is that I'm only an insider. Like I'm not V I B normally I'm V I B Sephora has like three different levels of like three different tiers of in beauty, insider based on how much money you have spent. Mm. And I have in the past been V I B, which is the middle one, but I am currently appear to be the lowest.
Doree: Oh,
Kate: Which just is insider.
Doree: Wow. That's embarrasing perhaps
Kate: It's, it's either embarrassing or for my bank account. Good. What am
Doree: I, I wonder I am a V I B,
Kate: Look at you,
Doree: Look, I'm V IB. What can I say?
Kate: Wow.
Doree: Yep. I'm V I B,
Kate: Are you gonna be buying anything? Do you know yet?
Doree: Um, yeah. I, you know, I feel like I always buy something
Kate: I know
Doree: At the Sephoras sale, but you know what I do just wanna point out that a lot of other brands will often have a sale, their own sale around this time. And sometimes those individual brands sales are better than the 20% off that Sephora is offering.
Kate: All right. So everybody let's pay attention.
Doree: Oh. And also, you know, VIB. So 20% is only for Rouge. VIB gets,
Kate: Yeah. V IB is
Doree: 15, 15, and insiders get 10. So like, you know, sometimes there's there's brain that are offering like 20 or 25% off because they wanna compete with the Sephora sale. So it's always, I think it is always worth just kind of like take two diluting on over.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: And seeing if your Fae brand is having a sale on their own website.
Kate: I would also say like, don't overlook the candle and fragrance section seora yes. Because this is a good time to kind of like stock up on some of your FAS or again, like buy that kind of see candle.
Doree: Mm. That is such a good point. We, so, as we alluded to earlier, we do have this shop by shelf account, and we have a bunch of different shells for the Sephora sale. So there's Sephora sale makeup, Sephora sale skincare. There is a Sephora sale fragrance.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Um, section. So, you know, check that out and look, if you don't wanna buy anything in the Sephora sale, that's fine.
Kate: Honestly, we're just, we're, you're better for it.
Doree: We're just offering our guidance to those of you who wish to partake.
Kate: I am of course, perusing for mint candles over here in the sephora.com oh, candle zone. Because
Doree: Are you you finding anything
Kate: I could never get? Well, I did just also another scent that I love is pair. I like pair. I like cucumber. I like mint. I don't know why I like basically like a, a garden cornucopia of scents, but oh yes. See nest wild mint and eucalyptus candle.
Doree: You know what I love, I love of like an herb. Like I love like a, like a Rosemary candle or a basal
Kate: Candle basal. Yes.
Doree: I mean, I guess mint is an herb too.
Kate: It is. It is. I dunno what, what that's about, but that's where this, my nose is going right now. Okay. Well, there is a nest candle. I'll see if there's selling it elsewhere and then maybe I'll do some purchasing. All right. See, it never ends. Well, Do We are really lucky to have a wonderful guest on the show today?
Doree: Yeah, let's talk about that.
Kate: All right. Well, our guest today is Marisa Renee Lee Marisa is a speaker and an entrepreneur. She has served in the Obama white house. She has started her own nonprofit. And most recently she has written an amazing book called grief is love, which comes out on April 12th. And, uh, to share a little bit from her, her bio to know Marisa is to know her mother, Lisa Marisa served as a caretaker for Lisa who had Ms and ultimately died from breast cancer in 2008. Marisa has also battled infertility and pregnancy loss. And these experiences have taught her that grief is really just another form of love. Her writing has been featured in glamor magazine, CNN refinery, 29, and a host of other outlets. In addition to our writing, she has served as the founder of several organizations, including beacon advisors, a social impact consulting firm. What a treat to get to talk to Marisa today. She's been someone who I've been on like Instagram friends with, for a while, but we've never actually met in real life. But I feel like I know her very well.
Doree: Mm.
Kate: You know, those friendships
Doree: Yep. A para social relationship. Yep.
Kate: Yes. But we, we have, you know, bonded over grief and I just thought her book is book is just a really beautiful manual slash memoir slash kind of support read for, for experiencing grief. Yeah.
Doree: It's so it's, it's like it's really, really, really well done.
Kate: Yes. It really is. And I found you, you know, as someone, you know, Doree and I have both kind of had our own experiences with grief and I was reading it and finding a lot of comfort in it. And, you know, I just thought that was a really extra special for me because sometimes I'm kind of like, oh, I'm fine. Right. You know, you're
Doree: Like, I wrote a book about grief guys.
Kate: I'm an expert. I just felt very seen. And I just thought it was a really beautiful book. So I'm, we're so excited to have her on the pod today. So let's take a little break. And when we come back, we'll be with Marisa Marisa, welcome to for over 35. Uh, we, we are going to re I mean, hopefully really get into it today because I've already cried while reading your book and coming up questions. So I'm excited. We'll see if we cry today.
Marisa: I mean, I'm okay. I'm ready.
Kate: I mean, speaking of self-care crying is a wonderful self-care practice, but we, we like to start every episode asking our guests for a current self-care practice that they have in their own lives. And as we say, and I think as you really articulate beautifully in your book, um, that can really be anything. So is there something that you are doing right now that is self-care for you?
Marisa: So there are two things. Um, one, I have been taking more baths as I've become a mom these last few months and, you know, developing a bedtime routine for a baby. It's gotten me thinking more about my own routines or lack thereof in most cases when it comes to really just shutting down and relax and trying to be more present. So bath time for me has become more of a thing which has been kinda nice. And then the other thing that I've been trying to do more and more of that, I read just a couple weeks ago, um, in this book, by this woman pay children. I don't know if I'm saying her name proper, but she's, you know, Buddhist monk, very interesting woman. And one of the practices that she recommends is something she calls a pause practice where, you know, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, you just take three deep and intentional breaths to just bring yourself back to the present moment, whatever is happening, whatever you're experiencing. And for me, that usually leads to a moment of gratitude, even in the midst of all the current craziness of my life, you know, the, the stopping and taking through deep and remembering that some of the craziness is in part to things that I've been waiting my whole life to have happen. You know, this book and this baby. Um, so that, that has been helpful for me too.
Kate: It's so interesting. You mentioned, um, Pema children, because I don't know if it was in things fall apart that you were reading. I I've read a bunch of books and I feel like I was given her book things fall apart by many people after my mom died. Dori. I don't know. Have you read that? Is that the one?
Marisa: It's the one that I got, I got comfortable with uncertainty after my mom died. And you can see, I mean, the spine is a mess. Like I turned to it. I turned to it often. It's from one of my roommates in college.
Kate: Well, I had this feeling when I was reading your book. Grief is love that I was like, oh, this is the new, this is the book that people are going to give friends who are GRE like, this is the things fall apart, uh, for the next like generation of grievers, because it just, it was it's just so, um, it's like such a beautiful, it's a manual, but it's also a memoir and it's just so human. I'm still trying to find the word to describe it, but it just felt like someone just passed me a little, like, here you go, here are some tools. And like, here's some comfort. Um,
Marisa: Oh, that makes me so happy. That was the goal. So I'm glad.
Kate: Yeah. Well
Doree: Let's all. So just, it's like, it's so easy to read, like you're
Marisa: Oh, that makes me so happy. Your
Doree: Writing style is just so I don't know. It's like cozy, but so smart. And it was, it's just, it's so great because I feel like sometimes grief books about grief can feel heavy in a way that make them hard to read. Yeah.
Marisa: A hundred
Doree: Percent and yours is not like that. So. Well, thank you. Yeah. It's just such a great book.
Marisa: That was, that was the goal, you know, I wanted, I wanted to, and I tried to create the book that I wish I had, you know, I had Joan Didion a year of not, you know, I think that came out maybe a year or two before my mom died. So that was the book that multiple people gave me. And I, and I did find comfort in her writing obviously is beautiful. And just the way that she described the pain that she was experiencing. But I didn't feel like there was anything to get me from those early, you know, deeply disorienting, overwhelming, incredibly painful weeks and months and everything else, you know, like what, like, I, I didn't have anything for the like, okay, what's next? Like how, how do you, how do you continue to acknowledge someone you love? Who's no longer here without just being sad and depressed all the time. You know, like that, that's what I wanted to try and figure out and share.
Kate: When you were dealing with pregnancy loss, was there, was there another kind of, did people also hand you books? I do feel like that's often a thing, an, an act of kindness that people do to, for others who are experiencing grief, but it sometimes it's like hit or miss. Yeah. You know, like I appreciate it always, but it doesn't always like, okay, doesn't always,
Marisa: So you'll appreciate this. I, uh, Kate, when I was going through the pregnancy loss and even just, and you'll appreciate this story and like the lead up all of the grief and anxiety and frustration, and just, you know, sadness that comes with the trying and failing and the stress of the trying, um, the books that were recommended and that were given to me were all romance books, which was not my thing at all. Like I don't, I don't think I read from the time I was in high school until like right before we experienced his pregnancy loss. I don't think I had read a single romance book and, uh, Lizzy who y'all had on the podcast. Um, a couple months ago she recommended one of Jasmine Gill's books. And of course I immediately fell in love and then read them all. And now in my mind, I'm friends with Jasmine. She does not know me. Um, but I am friends with her because those books were such a big part of helping me through that tough time leading up, and then just gave me a place to escape when I was on the other side and feeling beret and alone and confused and just physically unwell too. Um, so I, I'm a huge, huge fan of gifting, lighter books during hard times as well. Now
Kate: That's a great love that question.
Marisa: You know, you an escape sometimes too. So yeah.
Kate: I love that because I, you know, it's funny a lot of times people will send me like DMS and they're like, should I give your book to my friend whose mom is about to die? And I'm like, I don't know, like that you're
Marisa: Like that I can terrible.
Kate: Yes. Like, Ooh, like it's not the lightest to read. So I, I love the idea of, and I think our instinct is always to be like, oh, you're grieving. Here's this book on grief. Yeah, yeah. Uh, to hand to people. But I also think it is really important when we're experiencing grief to be able to find a book and see ourselves reflect it in it. Um, which I think is what you've really given here. Uh, and it's just, thank you.
Marisa: Thank you. It
Kate: Was really, I, I
Doree: Loved what you, I mean, you know, as someone who has also dealt with infertility and IVF and the whole rigmarole and, you know, going through the ring of all that, it's brutal and I loved what you wrote about it. And I also loved kind of how you pointed out that, like, it is different for black women. Um, and kind of the way you wrote about how, like your grief around pregnancy loss. Um, and this is a quote from your book. You said it felt layered with the history of black women, pregnancy, motherhood, and reproductive health in this country. Um, and I was hoping you could talk a little bit about that because the, the kind of the world of like infertility influencers, I guess, oh God,
Marisa: Get me going.
Doree: Right. Like is a very white, it's a very white space. Yeah. Um, and it, it can often feel like those are the only kinds of infertility stories that are sort of like okay. To tell. Um, so I'd just, you know, I'd be curious to kind of hear, expand on that a little bit.
Marisa: Yeah. So it's one of those things and you've both done it. I think we sometimes don't realize all that we're carrying until we're forced to like stop and sit down and really reflect on it and put it together in a way where it's helpful for somebody else. You know, like when, when I was going through, when I was going through the experience of like, you know, my initial diagnosis, navigating infertility and IVF and egg donor IVF, and, you know, all of these things with my white husband, um, I, I, wasn't thinking about the fact that, oh, and there is this added piece to it for me as a black woman, you know, these, these both expectations around strength and making everything no matter how hard it is, seem easy. And also, you know, I, I didn't really think about deeply, like what it meant to be a mother and how we define motherhood and what ISN and isn't acceptable around motherhood until the loss happened, you know?
Marisa: And then I was like, wait a minute. Like what, like how, how did we come up with what this is supposed to look like? Who is, and isn't acceptable, what is, and isn't accessible. And unfortunately just like literally everything else. It is all tied to capitalism and white supremacy, you know? And then I started thinking about the history of black mothers in this country and, and it's come up a lot since then, because you know, my, my son, who's seven months old now we adopted him. And even the questions that I've gotten from, uh, black friends who are, you know, our peers, our generation about how did you navigate the legal adoption process? And there's, there's always like this additional word that they threw in there, because if you are generally speaking, like if you are black and of our generation, you know, people in your family who either have been quote, adopted, or have like adopted other people's children as like circumstances come up and, you know, like my grandmother did it, she raised three of my cousins and she also ended up, you know, unofficially adopting one of my younger uncle's girlfriends who like, didn't have a family, you know, like, that's like, that's just kind of how it goes.
Marisa: So even the fact that we were going through like a true traditional, like legal adoption process was like weird for some people who not, not weird in bad way, but unfamiliar to people who I'm friends with who are black. And so as I started to unpack that, I started to realize like our, our definition of motherhood and like how it starts, how slash if it ends and what it all looks like is really limited. And I wanted to, I wanted to share some of like, why it was hard for me, even though I didn't necessarily realize it was hard in these ways at the time, but, you know, Doree, you're going to the doctor sometimes every couple of days getting poked and proded, and, you know, the waiting for the test results and the blood work and the freaking and vaginal ultrasounds and everything else, and always in that environment to feel different, like there is, there is weight in that, like, there is, there is a challenge there, you know, the only, the only black people who I saw on a consistent basis throughout that process were nurses like at the clinic, you know, like they were never patients.
Marisa: I think I only saw one other person of color the entire time. Wow. Um, and so that then also leads you to think about how that whole industry is set up and, you know, it just, there's, there's a lot there. I that's like a whole,
Doree: Right. Once you start kinda pulling on that thread, it's just like
Marisa: Horrifying, it's horrifying. Yeah. It's horrifying. And then even basic challenges, like, you know, we were doing egg donor IVF because of my underlying health condition. It is much harder to find black donor eggs. So it's like, even like little things in this massive, expensive time consuming process were made more challenge because of my race. Yeah. Um, and so I felt it was important to point to that and also to acknowledge, you know, my privilege, even as a black woman, to just be able to be in those spaces, to, you know, go to the best doctors in New York city and, you know, to have the resources to afford these things, like as challenging as it was, there is also privilege in that, that I wanted to be sure to call out as well.
Doree: Well, I mean, I was really glad that you talked about it and I feel like these conversations around infertility as, as more and more people talk about this stuff, the intersectionality of it is just going to, like, we need to talk about that more as well.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Um, and so I'm really glad that you're kind of opening this conversation.
Kate: Yeah. I, I was really, um, I really appreciated you connecting the dots between capitalism and how our society does not really make room for grief, because I don't think I'd ever really, like, you kind of understand that as you move through grief, but I'd never seen someone just call it out. So cool. Literally before until your book. And I was like, oh God, like it's, oh, wow. So fucked
Marisa: Up. Like, it's so hard. But when you stop to think about it, like your feelings, your grief, like it is an inconvenience and it, and, and then you're like, wait, why, why does it feel like any time I am feeling sad or having these moments of grief? Like, why does that feel like an inconvenience? Oh, because I am expected primarily to just produce, like, to be producing something all of the time. And then it was, why do we have this obsession with productivity? You know, like as I, right. And I spent, and like, you know, I'm talking to you guys on the floor of my office, like, this is where I spent most of 20, 20, and 2021 writing and crying and asking questions and trying to figure this stuff out. And fundamentally, we, we all have to, we all have to recognize and acknowledge that so much of how we behave, how we are expected to behave, what we are and are not expected to do is tied to bigger things.
Marisa: You know, like there are these societal cultural norms. And when you start asking, like, why is this normal? But that's not normal. You know, even I, in my, uh, consulting work, I do you a lot of work around equity, particularly racial equity, but also LGBTQ rights and equity. And like, even thinking about these conversations that are happening right now, these horrendous discussions around, you know, that don't say gay bill and trans kids in Texas, uh, just is infuriating. But it's like, what, why is this such a pro for some people? Like, why do you care if books are teaching about, you know, how different and unique and special we all are, you know, by sharing these different gender expressions and sexual identifications, like what, why do, why are you obsessed with that? Why do you think that's wrong? And again, when you start peeling back the layer, like it becomes really clear. And so much of it is about whiteness and capitalism. Unfortunately, I dunno. I
Kate: Know it comes back. We do, you know, but it's like, but I appreciate that the con that like this conversation is happening and that you, you, so you speak to it so clearly, like, it's, you just make it like, you're, it's just, I don't know. It just really hit me. And there was, I mean, look, this is what I did to your book. So I'm not sure I can find
Kate: You can't see this because this is a podcast, but I have like a hundred little tabs in the book. So I can't find where you wrote it. But there was one moment where I was just like, oh my God, capitalism and white supremacy, everything. I know. Um, it's wild. I wanted to, I wanted to shift gears and just ask about, um, you have a great kind of, um, anecdote in your book talking about how you honor your mom's quote, death anniversary, which is like the unofficial word that I think grieving people, all we all just use to refer to the day that our person died. Yeah. We gotta
Marisa: Get in Websters. We gotta get in like, it's
Kate: Debt. It's what a week. It's such a weird day where you're like, what do I call it? But it is, it's going important day.
Marisa: We're gonna make it end at this. Yeah, this is ridiculous.
Kate: It's a great word. And you have this story, which like, I was, it wasn't funny, but I was also like, there were funny moments where I was chuckling because you were working in the Obama white house directly for president Obama. And there was this campaign that you were working on that was important to you, important to the president. And they had to shift the date and it almost fell on your D your mom's death anniversary. And you talk about how, like, you always had taken that day off from work. And if this event happened on that day, like you were gonna, like, the president is important, but that day, and what it means to you is more important. And I think like, where else can this be more highlighted than when you are working for the president of the United States? Oh
Marisa: My God.
Kate: So I loved that, uh, that moment also, just as someone who always kind of contemplates what to do on this. And I was wondering when people kind of ask you, like how, how should they spend their person's death? What do you tell people? And how do you still still mark this day?
Marisa: So my response to all things grief related is first of all, there are no should. So like, what I should do is probably gonna be different from what you, Kate or anyone else should do. Like, that's, that's one of my biggest things, you know, I think, I think a lot of people try to be really specific about what does, and doesn't work for people around grief and, and you know, other life challenges. And my thing is what is going to work for you is being honest to, of all what you need, like start, start there. And for me, I have wanted to, like, since she passed away, I've wanted to have my mother's birthday and her death day as days where I, I don't have any commitments, I don't have any responsibilities. You know, I spend a lot of time working and doing things for myself and others.
Marisa: And just knowing that those two days in February, I don't have to be accountable for anything except for honoring my own feelings. And for me personally, it's looked, its look different throughout the years. You know, at some point there are always gonna be some tears. And the fact also that my mom died and uh, was born 10 days apart means that it's just a period of like very intense emotions and it's February, which just kind of sucks as a month. Um, so it's, it's always a little bit of a lot. Um, I will bake something somewhere in there. My mom had a notorious sweet tooth and was a very good baker. So you'll get some homemade chocolate chip cookies for a couple years. I went on a crusade to perfect, like a yellow cake with homemade chocolate frosting, like all made from scratch, obviously. Um, so that was a thing for a while.
Marisa: Um, I also have a great browny recipe. So baking something is high on my list, getting extra rest and just doing things that feel indulgent around self care. Even if that's just, let's say her death day is on a Tuesday and I'm taking a nap at 2:00 PM. How often do I get to take a nap for an unlimited amount of time at two o'clock in the afternoon? You know, like, like what is going to make me feel cared for, because she's no longer here to care for me. So like what can I do to care for and comfort myself and create space for whatever feelings arise. And then also like, what can I do that will allow me to feel that connection to her? You know? So whether it's the baking or you guys can obviously say, I have these bright yellow nails, you know, I got my nails done on her death anniversary this year, you know? So it's, for me, it's, it's like the care and the connection. Like that's what matters most to me. But for you, you know, maybe it's you, you know, Kate, I think this year you were with fame. Um, and, and maybe that's, you know, like what, whatever, whatever is going to feel good to you on an otherwise probably pretty shitty day. Like that's, that's what I wanna encourage people just like take the space and the time that you need to access, whatever is going to make you feel even just a little bit it better.
Kate: Hmm. I love that. I think that's, it's such good advice because grief is so individual.
Marisa: Exactly.
Kate: And I think, I think that's what, even though there are these kind of larger systemic influences, the way we experience it is so individual and it can, it can be so hard, you know, we're kind of taught, there are ways to go through it. And I think you point out too that like the Elizabeth KUER Ross. Yeah. Like, yeah. The five stages of grief are for dying people. They're not noting. Yeah.
Doree: Yeah. Yes. Which I
Kate: Don't think I knew until you pointed that out.
Marisa: And doesn't it just like when I first read that and it was through doing the research for this book cuz that's the other thing that was important to me about this book. You know, I had been talking for years, you know, I wanna write this book. I know I have this book. I know I have to write this book. And then, you know, summer of 2020 start actually getting agents calling and trying to figure it out. And my husband at one point said like, why should somebody trust you? You know, like what makes you a grief expert? And I was like, Ooh, he's a scientist by the way. So like very different types of experts there. But I was like, Ooh, that's a really good point. You know what? I, I am not a grief expert. And that's when I realized like I am actually a grief advocate.
Marisa: I wanna be someone who encourages people to do what they need to do to honor their grief and just helps normalize grief. Like that's what I really want to do. So I partnered up with an actual researcher, uh, bereavement professor at Harvard, Dr. Her Christie DCLA. She also dealt with all of the infertility stuff and lost a parent at a young age. Um, and through her, I learned all of these things about our bodies and our brains and why so many aspects of grief are so challenging and that it's because they should be challenging. And, and through her, I even opt fighting some of my own tendencies to be like, oh, you should be fine. You know, like, what is wrong with you? Like get it together. Sort of, um, and through her, I learned about the origins of Elizabeth KU Ross's work and yeah, they were not for you or me, but for people who were dying themselves. And at that point I was like, oh shit, what else? Stone. I know. Um, and got to work with her. So yeah.
Doree: Yeah. I loved how you were like, this was like a weird game of telephones. It's like, we now have like all, we all think that this is the, the like path that we're all supposed to follow with our grief. And in fact it's not, it's not at all.
Marisa: Yeah.
Doree: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: All right. We are back. I wanted to go back to, um, vulnerability. Um, this is my favorite and yeah, I was really struck by what you wrote about how, you know, if, if your day to day life you wrote, if day to day living often feels like a battle. Grieving feels like grieving seems like a luxury. And I was, I was hoping you could kind of talk about that in the context of your own experience, but also kind of just more broadly in the context of especially black women's experiences in this country, um, with grief and kind of navigating this feeling of like, well, I don't feel safe in my day to day life. So how am I supposed to kind of allow myself the space to feel vulnerable?
Marisa: So I started thinking about, um, you know, why was I able to hand know the loss of our pregnancy? I don't wanna say so much better, but why was I able to be so much more open about what we were experiencing? You know, how hard it was, how sad it was, you know, we shared our infertility journey before, or we even went through the last pregnancy attempt, um, that we had. And when it didn't work out, you know, I was all over Facebook and Instagram and telling clients basically I would tell anybody who would listen. And it was in the moment. I thought it was mostly because one, the main differences between the two losses was I was also very like physically sick from this pregnancy loss and like underlying health and, and hormonal issues. And so I felt like, oh, I have to tell people so that I don't have to lie about the fact that I am, I am currently ill.
Marisa: Um, but then when I looked back and, you know, examined it through the lens of writing this book, I realized I just, I felt so much more comfortable being honest about what was going on. And as I looked at why I felt that way, I realized I was in a place, you know, this is now two and a half years ago, I was 36 or so, where I just like, didn't give a fuck what people thought, you know, like I realized like what as I was sharing, like, are people gonna think I'm being too sensitive, too emotional? Like, you know, I am also a reproductive rights reproductive health person. So like, are people gonna be like, this is literally a bundle of cells. Like, what is she talking about? You know, like, like I went through all of the different things that people say to judge me, or like might use against me.
Marisa: And I realized, I just didn't give a shit, like if they didn't get it and like, thought that I was being weak or too emotional or immature or whatever, I was like, I don't give a fuck. Um, and so then I had to ask, why don't I give a fuck? And I realized a lot of it is rooted in where I, you know, where I was in life when we lost that pregnancy versus where I was in life. When I lost my mom, you know, when I lost my mom, I'd been working on wall street for like two years. I was the only black person for the most part. Uh, oftentimes the only woman as well, and usually the youngest person, because I mean, this may not be obvious, but if people are in my book, it will be obvious very quickly. I am the person who's like, I'm gonna be the best at this.
Marisa: And so of course I was always asking for like the biggest projects, the hardest clients, et cetera. Um, and I didn't have, I didn't have the kind of like social support or practical, financial support and independence that I had then, you know, over a decade later, you know, 10 years later at that point I was as opposed to just starting off in my career, I was accomplished in my career. You know, like I'd done wall street, I'd done the white house. I built a nonprofit. That was a part of the Obama foundation. I had my own business. I had the husband, I have the house. I, you know, like I had all of these things that make you as safe as possible. You in this country, you know, again, according to the standards of whiteness and capitalism and just like how things function in the world, like it, it is what it is.
Marisa: Right. And so I realized, you know, we, we talk a lot about vulnerability and we're quick to give out these cookies for being vulnerable and like what we think vulnerability is, but how can you be vulnerable? Forget about if you're, you know, the teen mother who's black or brown and barely making it and, you know, trying to get yourself on track. But you know, these days also, if you're, if you're the trans man who God forbid also happens to be a person of color, like, you know, like, like what does vulnerability look like for people who have already been made vulnerable by the circumstances that they're in and by the way that society treats them. And when I realized that I was like, oh, shit, like, this is why grief, trauma. And ultimately healing are so much harder for black people, indigenous people, LGBTQ folks, you know, native Americans, except like everyone, because you are not in a place where you have all of the things that you need to really be safe. And if you're not safe, you can't let your guard down and grieve like you, you, you can't afford to do
Kate: That. Yeah. Yeah. And the, the change has to be a systemic one. Exactly.
Marisa: Exactly.
Kate: As you, as you point, as you point out so much of the focus is always on the individual to figure out they're grieving and to, and ultimately it's so much bigger than us. Um,
Marisa: And what I will say to individuals though, because I think it's, you know, like what I wish, what I wish someone had said to me back then is like, it's okay to let your guard down. Even if it's just a little bit, or just with certain P people, you know, maybe you can be as open about all of these hard things as I have been able to be, but, you know, figure out what you can do to open yourself up to even like a little bit of vulnerability or to even just one trusted person or trusted resource, because grief is just too hard to do completely by yourself.
Kate: So the title of your book, which I think is ultimately kind of the entire thesis of your book is this idea that grief is love, which really makes, and my family makes what we say blubber, which is what we call crying, where I just start, you know, woo. Uh, just that, I just, that concept really, I, I find really moving. And, um, and, and also the, the moment you share where you, you discuss how you were in conversation with Trayvon Martin's mom, uh, and how she spoke about the love she and her son had in the present tense.
Marisa: Oh my God. It
Kate: Still, that impacted you. Yeah, I know. And this is why I was like crying in the bathroom before we got on the phone or on that interview. Cause I was like, I kept thinking about just one her experience and her grief and loss. And then, then having the ability to even just come to that makes just wrecks me. And so, and, but it's also incredibly powerful because, so, you know, the way we have kind of been conditioned to talk about our loved ones who have passed is in this past tense. So I would love to hear kind of how you, how you develop your thinking on this and how you really kind of landed on this idea, uh, in all aspects of life and grief to choose love and focus on the, I, this idea that grief is love.
Marisa: So it happened in stages. You know, the first thing for me was having that pregnancy loss take place over a decade after I lost my mom and realizing, and you know, I will never forget this moment. Like I was on the floor of our bathroom, like trying to fit my five, seven, a hundred fifty five pound self onto like the bath mat, which, you know, obviously was not working and, um, just being on the floor and being so physically sick. But like, I couldn't even cry, you know, just like so ill and all I wanted was my mom. And it's like, it's been over 10 years, like, what is wrong with me? Like, and, you know, thank God that day. Um, my cousin, who's a nurse and her husband at the time, who's a doctor were there and like, they were able to like help me. And like actually practically helped take care of me.
Marisa: Cause even my husband was just like terrified by how sick I was. Um, and in the, in the months that followed, you know, suddenly the world was shut down because of the pandemic. I had another set of like my mom's like birthday and anniversary pass. And I just, I realized as I tried to process all of this grief, like, you know, the current pregnancy loss grief, my physical health was still off track and just wanting my mom to be the, there with me. And I was like, oh shit, like you don't, you don't get over it. Like you, you don't get over these these losses. Like, and I was like, what does that even mean? And I didn't have an answer. Um, but I ended up writing an article about it for glamor that then led to this book deal. Um, but before I started writing the, I got into this conversation, um, with Trayvon Martin's mom, Sabrina Fulton, who I'd met a few times before.
Marisa: And she just, I mean, I am honestly overwhelmed by this woman's ability to still participate in the world, like period, forget about of her advocacy and like charitable work and the things that she does out in the world to honor her son. You know, when I talked to her, she was like running for city council and running his foundation and, and, and, you know, doing a million other things. And because it was summer of 2020 when we spoke, she was also serving as a comfort to all of, of these other families who were experiencing, you know, like being on the phone with George Floyd's brother, like earlier that like that kind of thing. And I was just like, how are you doing this? Like how, like you have every right, given what the world has taken from you to just be shut up in your room with like Roman movies, romance, you know, and like drinking TV for the rest of your life.
Marisa: Like you literally, you owe us nothing. And I asked her like, you know, like, how does she continue to think about her work in relationship to her son? And like, why, why she even still trying to help out the rest of us basically. And she led with that piece, you know, I still love my son and I know my son still loves me. And when she said that it was like a smack in the face and I just kind of like sat with it for a while and realized like, of course I still love my mom. That's why I'm so fucking sad like that. Like, that's literally the root of this whole thing. And then as I was working on the book and doing this research and I should add, uh, my husband and I, you know, we were in this process for five years trying to get pregnant and then doing the adoption stuff.
Marisa: And our son showed up with less than 24 hours notice three weeks before my book was due. And so I now had this like, new experience of love to like reflect on and also loss because, you know, the kid shows up and I'm like, well, of course I want my mom to fucking show me how to do all of this stuff. Um, and I realized one morning that like there has to be, I was like, there must be some science behind the idea that once you have this like, deep experience of love and attachment with someone else, the, it doesn't just go away like that. The whole idea of getting over, like it has to be factually incorrect. Like that's what I want find you like, that was like my nerdy, like Harvard self. Like, I, I wanna know, like give me, gimme some data, give me some science, give me something here.
Marisa: And so I talked to Christie and she said, yeah, yeah, that's, it's absolutely a thing. Like here's all of the data in research to support exactly what you're saying. And I was like, oh my God, everybody needs to know this. And it is this theory of attachment known as the continuing bonds theory of attachment. That basically argues that once you have one of these fundamental attachment relationships that we like the basis is reciprocal, unconditional love, you know, parent, child, spouse, best friend, sibling, like anyone who you would consider like one of yours, you know, like that bond isn't broken when they die instead. And this is a part of why grief is so disorienting and painful, especially in those early weeks, your brain has to reconfigure itself to accommodate for their physical absence. But the emotional part of it does actually technically continue. Like there is no, there is no off switch for the love.
Marisa: Like that's the simplest way of saying it. And so I came to view the pain of grief as the pain of unrequited, unconditional love. Like you can still have the feeling, but because love is both feeling and action and your people are no longer here with you, you know, baking cookies at Christmas and, you know, buying presents for your birthday and picking up your call of what the random question or whatever like that, that is the pain that we feel, you know, like not being able to have these actions and, you know, these shared experiences that you would have with them otherwise, but the feelings are absolutely still there.
Kate: That's just really beautiful. Thank you for the getting into that. I just think that is so like, that's just the heart of your whole book and it just is so moving. Thank you. Thank you. Such a gift. Thank you, Marc, look. Oh, sorry. Doree. You. Oh, no. I was just gonna say, um, could we ask you about skincare? Not to just like totally switch gears. You put on your face while grieving while grieving. I mean, no, but I'm like you, you have, you have a mask that you brought to the conversation. We know that there's while working also, also wait, I have a request. Can you also talk about
Doree: Your nails?
Marisa: Oh yeah, we are great. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, great. Thank you. Um, so, and these things actually do connect to grief. Believe it or not. Um, this is why it's called living with loss ladies. So my mom, like one of the things that I always think about of my mom's, you know, I don't know if you have this Kate, but like, I don't obviously I think about her face, but I don't actually think about her face as much as I think about her hands. I have my dad's man hands, like very big, huge fingers. I can Palm a basketball. If you need me to open, you know, a jar, pickles, whatever, but no one is gonna call like these myths, like elegant or anything like that. Whereas my mom had, you know, the long elegant fingers and like beautiful natural nails and whatever. And she was a manicure pedicure person, you know, like she was always getting her nails done.
Marisa: The woman was buried with like her nails painted after she died. Like that was a part of the instructions I gave to the undertaker. So the nail nails thing for me is always a connection to my mom and everyone who knows me knows that 95% of the time I'm gonna have my nails done because that's like my mom thing. And now I've actually found locally for folks who are in the DC area, nothing in between it's this organic nontoxic nail studio. We will actually be doing a grief love event there, um, because they're all about holistic self care. So the nails are a mom thing. This color, I felt like I needed some more joy and sort of a reminder to be joyful and present during this very, very, very busy sea easy. So that's why I went with this. Um, I'm sorry that folks who are listening, can't see the color, but I'll, I'll try and take some pictures and share on
Doree: Socials, social media. It's it's a very good color. Yeah, it's a good
Marisa: Color. My mom was like ultimate girly girl, and I am also on that team. And while I very much believe that self-care can be a spectrum of things, even just the three deep breaths that we talked about in the beginning, I decided during the pandemic that it was time for a skincare routine. Like I'd never done, okay. Not a moisturizer. Didn't like washed my face by putting water on it in the shower. I would put Vaseline on my face, which if you're black, like Vaseline is, but it's actually not great for your face. So don't do that. Um, so that's what I was doing. And then I got into like a whole multistep, you know, serum, et cetera, routine that I'm pretty good about, but not perfect. But this one thing that I have to share it, it might be insanely expensive, but I'm gonna share it anyway.
Marisa: It is Theron focused care youth plus revival mask, anyone who tries this mask. I don't know if you guys can see it, but anybody who tries it is like, I look like a younger person afterwards and you really do. And like, I think I have naturally pretty good skin, you know, black don't crack all that good stuff, but this is, this is one of my favorite game changer products. Um, so yes, huge, huge fan of the mask and just putting on a face mask for the purpose of taking a break for 10 minutes, like put down your phone, like, love it. Just do it, do something small for
Kate: Yourself. It does kind of force you to stop, right? Yeah. You kinda can't just like, yeah, it does kinda make you stop. Okay. Now I'm deep into in viron I've never even heard of this. That,
Marisa: That is, that is my primary line. My skincare lady. Um, oh my gosh. Am I really gonna forget her? Oh my gosh, this is gonna kill me. I have to find it because she's so, so amazing. Um, and such a good feed. Your skin studio. That's my lady. Ooh,
Kate: Ooh.
Marisa: OK. Her name is Lisa. Check her out. She's a wonderful, wonderful human, um, and answers all of my random skincare questions.
Kate: Oh, well thank you for this hot tip. Cause yeah, I love a line. Like it's amazing. After four years of doing this podcast, there's so much, we don't know so many brands. We've still never heard of Doree.
Doree: I know. That's,
Kate: I'm
Marisa: Gonna think about, I'm gonna be like texting you other things that I like
Kate: Feel free, please. Osmosis.
Marisa: Have you used any osmosis products? That's over lines. They have a revival mask that I actually did today. Um, after my daily cry, I was like, you need to do something about your face. So that's what I did today.
Kate: I like that. You're a mask person too. I feel like oftentimes love them. You're either one or the other you're the on or off with a mask. But I like
Marisa: That to me, the mask is like the taking a bath, you know, like it like forces you to really like slow down and be intentional and just take a minute. Um, so yeah, I am, I am pro mask.
Kate: Well, Marisa, this has been literal dream come true. Yay. Thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having briefest love is out April. I'm getting you mixed up with my other friend. You're April 12. I have two friends on April 12th. That
Doree: Is this coming Tuesday. This is coming out on the next,
Kate: The day, the week before the week before,
Doree: Uh,
Kate: Where this
Doree: Is on Tuesday. Um, do you have any events that our listeners might wanna know about?
Marisa: Yes. So, uh, we are doing a virtual event on April 11th on Instagram with Mina Harris, from phenomenal books and phenomenal media. Um, we are also doing an impersonal event on April 14th at RJ, Julia bookstore in Madison, Connecticut. One of the biggest, and I'm really excited, super fun, independent bookstores, um, in the country. And then we're doing an event in New York city on April 21st location T B D. We're doing an event in DC at politics and pros on May 7th. And then I'm also participating in an event at the Kennedy center here in DC on May 13th. So that's all that's current. Definitely. Uh, join me on Instagram and sign up for my newsletter to learn more. It's Marisa Renee Lee.
Kate: Perfect. All right. Thank you, Mari Marisa. Thank you again.
Marisa: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been great.
Doree: Uh, another guest who I just like wanna be friends with,
Kate: I feel the same way that you do. Like every guest that we have on I'm like now our best friends, like, you know what I mean? Like totally. Uh, we're all we're gonna hang out forever and be best friends. Totally.
Doree: And
Kate: Maybe we
Doree: Will. I mean maybe, maybe we will.
Kate: Well, Doree, I know last week Matt was going away for a couple of nights and your intention was not to get overwhelmed. Did you? Or did you,
Doree: Well, it got a little tricky because he came back early.
Kate: Excuse me, how dare he?
Doree: Because the friend that he was with found out, he had had a COVID exposure. Okay. And went, had to go home for childcare reasons and the fact that he had had a COVID exposure. And so Matt came home early and now like, it's just, it was just sort of a, um, it was not the trip. I think that either of us had anticipated, so I did not really get overwhelmed, but he also wasn't gone for as long as, as he, you was supposed to be.
Kate: Gotcha. OK.
Doree: And then this week, so remember, I think last week I talked about how I hadn't done the yoga that I wanted to do. And you said that Jess and Stanley would probably be okay with that?
Kate: Yes.
Doree: Okay. So I found a genre of yoga on the Peloton that I'm really enjoying and I think has been really beneficial and it is their 10 minute focus, flow, hamstrings and hips. Those are two separate classes,
Kate: So nice. Okay. One for hamstrings, one for
Doree: Hamstrings, one for hips, top, there's a few different ones taught by different teachers and those have been so great because I feel like my hamstrings and hips get so tight because I'm like playing a lot of tennis now and I'm, I'm on the I'm on the Peloton. And I was just feeling very like, Ugh. Um, and I had like kicked things off by doing a minute hip opener class. That was amazing. And like totally got rid of some of the pain that I was having in my legs. And so I'm trying to be consistent about doing these 10 minute hip and hamstring op like opening classes a few times a week.
Kate: Nice. Look at you. I like that. You're taking care of yourself in this way.
Doree: Um, thank you, Kate.
Kate: Are you also foam rolling? I've just outta curiosity.
Doree: You know, I I've had a foam roller for years. I've gone through face a foam. Rolling. I just cannot get into foam. Rolling.
Kate: That's OK.
Doree: It's just like, not my thing. I don't know. That's
Kate: OK. Doesn't need to be, it's
Doree: Just curious. Um, Kate, let's talk about your meal planning.
Kate: Oh my goodness. Okay. I made an amazing discovery. All right. So last week I wanted to plan four easy meals for the family, with the input of my children. I kind of bailed on the input of my children, part of it,
Doree: Whereas understandable.
Kate: Yeah. I was like, I don't feel like asking you, I wanna do, I'm gonna do this myself. Well, I literally was Googling like, and I do this every time where it's like easy dinners, you know, but they're never really that easy. And I have reached a point where like, I don't wanna put any effort into making dinner.
Doree: Mm.
Kate: And I should say, like, I share cooking responsibilities with my husband, but I like, I cook most of the meals and he does the cleanup. And I think I would, I hate dishes. I hate doing dishes so much. Like that's I would
Doree: Rather that's, that's what we have like come to do. Yeah.
Kate: Yes. It would take me like three hours to like do the dishes and wipe down the kitchen and do all that stuff. And he just kinda like whips it out. So I would much rather be cooking, but I don't wanna put a lot of effort into my cooking and I'm talking like the most minimal amount I can possibly do. So somehow I stumbled upon someone's website called the lazy dish.com.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: And I printed out a bunch of this person's recipes. Her name is Lily, according to the website. And so far they I've made two of them and they have been met with applause.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Like, and I'm kind of, I'm like, what is happening? And my kids are like, this is
Doree: Totally dress.
Kate: I made one that was a gravy and chicken, like a crockpot thing. And I'm talking like a can of cream of chicken, a like some packets of gravy powder. So like I'm, I, I can't, I can't chop, I can't be bothered to do anything. And then I put some rice in our rice cooker. Okay. And like, then I steamed a bag of green beans. That was
Doree: It. Okay.
Kate: And then I made like a teki chicken again with rice, from the rice cooker and IED, sips of vegetables, also a hit, I have another one of her recipes to try for like Buffalo chicken sandwiches.
Doree: Ooh. Okay.
Kate: Which is again, literally like dumping a jar, Buffalo sauce, some packets of ranch powder and some chicken breath into the crockpot and then putting 'em on some like Hoggy
Doree: Buns. Wow. Okay.
Kate: Yeah. And that's all I wanna do.
Doree: All
Kate: Right. I think that I was a little, sorry, I'm kind of going on a rant here, but I think that I was a little bit so Naish where it was like, I don't wanna use a can of cream chicken. It's not game cream. You know? I think I had some, I don't know what the word is. Arrogance ignorance. I don't know, uh,
Doree: Where
Kate: I was like, I still wanna like make something from scratch, but I don't, I don't, I wanna rely on as much fucking help as I can, like microwave bag of rice, microwave, vegetable. Like I just, I hate making dinner.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: So that's where I am at. So these, so these webs, these recipes have been super easy and also like my kids have eaten them in a way that oftentimes when I exert more effort, they are like, Ew. So,
Doree: Oh, that's interesting. Shout
Kate: Out to the lazy dish.com. I'm now going to be using like every recipe on. And like she does a lot of like get a rotiserie chick again and shred it, which is another thing I love to do. And like put it in this dish. Oh, that's
Doree: So funny.
Kate: So there you go, Doree. That's where I'm at today.
Doree: I love this for you. Okay.
Kate: Whew. That was a mouthful, too much information. And then next week I am committing to getting into a rhythm of my daily mental health slash dog walk. I need to figure out when this happens and like, I need to do it daily.
Doree: Okay. Tell me more about this. Well,
Kate: We walk our dogs twice a day, but like, I think it would help if I, if I went consistently at the same time and right now I'm kind of, it's kind of sporadic or I'm like saving it til the two in the afternoon when I should do it in the morning, et cetera, et cetera. So I'd like to kind like make it a habit, a consistent habit.
Doree: I love this for you.
Kate: Thank you. Do thank you
Doree: So much. Well, Kate
Kate: Been a
Doree: Really a,
Kate: His been a pleasure. I don't even think that's the proper way to use tis, but
Doree: I'm gonna do it. That's why I said Tis
Kate: Oh, I heard
Doree: You say te. Oh, like if we can't laugh at ourselves,
Kate: What's the point of anything at this? Right. Well, Doree look forever 35 is hosted and produced by AME do Shap and Kate Spencer. And it's produced and edited by Sam Huno. Sammy. Reid is our project manager and our network partner is a cast. And we thank you for listening.
Doree: Bye.