Episode 209: Chronic Illness and Self-Care with Meghan O'Rourke
“Trust yourself. You are the person in your body.”
- Meghan O’Rourke
Kate discovers she loves muesli and Doree recommends a caftan she can’t get enough of. Then, author Meghan O’Rourke joins them to discuss her daily forest bathing routine, her new book The Invisible Kingdom: Reimagining Chronic Illness, and what advice she wishes she had when she was in her 20s.
Photo Credit: David Surowiecki
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: And I am do Shrier
Kate: A and we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: We do. And if you would like to catch up on which serums we like, you can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com, four links to everything we mention on the show. You can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod and on Instagram at forever 35 a podcast. And of course you can join the forever 35 Facebook group where the password to join is serums
Doree: Indeed, and do remember to sign up for our newsletter forever35podcast.com slash newsletter. And if you wanna reach us, you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. And you can us at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: And, uh, you know, we always appreciate a review on apple podcast. If you feel like, uh, popping in there and tapping those stars.
Doree: Yeah. And you know, I think Spotify now has reviews or rating listen. Well, I have not, I have not investigated this deeply, but I, I heard that they were going to be starting those. So,
Kate: I mean, feel free to give us five stars wherever you want. You'll run PO mark and you see us on PO mark. We take those five stars,
Doree: Yelp
Kate: Yelp, give us a Yelp review, Google reviews, maybe like a report card.
Doree: What? We'll take a report card. I
Kate: Would love a report card. Actually. I wouldn't that triggers a lot of painful memories from the past. Don't give me a report card. No, a scores don't gimme any of that stuff. Well, you know, Doree, you, yes, you were, you were laughing at my previous mention of muesli before we start at the podcast, but I do have to give a shout out to muesli because that has become a breakfast staple of mine as I've, you know, shifted some of the things I'm eating to lower my cholesterol and like muesli is really great.
Doree: Mm.
Kate: And it's not easy to always come by some good muesli here in the United States of a, I feel like we aren't really like muesli enthusiasts here, but Bob's red mill makes an excellent muesli. I just wanna keep saying muesli. It's such a great word. Mm yep. It's got oats, almonds Walnuts, and I eat it with some banana and some almond milk a little bit, honey. Mm mm. Mm. Maybe some frozen blueberries sounds so good. I put some flax and some chia seeds in there, Doree and I am good to go.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Yeah. Muesli who knew?
Doree: I mean, I think a lot of people, but
Kate: Millions and millions.
Doree: Millions of people. Yeah.
Kate: But I didn't, but I didn't,
Doree: But you did not. Yeah. Nope.
Kate: So I hadn't really, uh, embraced muesli until
Doree: No
Kate: Until a few like a month ago.
Doree: It's So exciting.
Kate: Mm. Well, listen. How are you?
Doree: You know, Kate, I am pretty good. Um, I'm going away this weekend.
Kate: I like this for you.
Doree: Thank you to the desert. And in honor of that, I got some new caftans.
Kate: Doree's always looking for an excuse to get some new caftans. I mean,
Doree: Look, I'm not gonna deny that, but you know, I had had some caftans in the past that like, they were fine, but not great. And I ended up getting rid of them. So I was actually in the market for some new caftans anyway. Okay. And this was a great excuse to get some new calf tens. So my preferred, uh, calf tan purchasing lo is Etsy. There's a ton of great caftans on Etsy that are generally much cheaper than buying one from, you know, I don't know. There's like a lot of expensive caftans out there.
Kate: There's a lot of like bougie caftans, let's say, especially here in Los Angeles.
Doree: Yeah. And like, I mean, I just, I just didn't wanna spend that much. So I went, went to good old Etsy and I got some calf dances from a shop called print a block and
Kate: Okay, I'm gonna just tude over here. Ooh. These are pretty,
Doree: They're really pretty. I was a little hesitant because their caftans have a, an adjustable waist tie. And at first I was like, Ooh, I don't know. Like I like a, just loose flowy calf tan. Do I really need like a waist tie? And then I got them and I was like, oh, these are great.
Kate: And you need that waist tie.
Doree: The waist tie is actually really nice and they're really flattering and just feels so comfortable. They're so light and airy. Um, I did a little experiment where I hand I got three.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: I hand washed two of them. Okay. And I put the third one in the washing machine on a, like a gentle cycle, no dryer. And I hang dried all of them. And I did not see a discernible difference between the hand washed versus the machine washed calf hands. The machine washed calf hand did not bleed or shrink. Cause I, I washed it on like cold and delicate. Of course, of course. Okay. So I think that is going to be my method of washing the, the shop owner said, you can, you can wash them in the machine on a gentle cycle, even though like they advise hand washing what they said by all means, do like never put it in the dryer. Um, but you know, obviously machine washing is a lot more convenient than hand washing in my bathroom sink. So that's just a little hot tip. Um, yeah. So if you're in the market for a calf 10, I highly recommend the other. I, I did order a couple other calfs from a different shop. They have not yet arrived. They're supposed to arrive today, but I think I will probably be gone before they arrive. But you know, I have, I have three, so I think I'm set
Kate: Doree. We should also mention that Etsy just happens to be a sponsor right now on the pod. So we have a oh yes, yes. Code that people can use. It's welcome 10. And you can use it checkout to get 10% off your first purchase. It says maximum offer value of $50. And this offer ends March 31st. So get those caftans in now out.
Doree: Yes. Thank you for reminding us all of this offer. Um, I, yeah, if you know, again, if you're looking for a calf 10, I recommend these,
Kate: Um, listen, can I just say, like, if we ever do a forever 35 retreat gathering, may we all be in calf tens?
Doree: Yeah. Well like if we did that, we would have to have a gift bag that contained a calf tan.
Kate: It would just be like a calf tan, an eye mask for sleeping, some earplugs and like a face ice roller. Totally. And then some mu and like a little plastic bag either. Yes. I bagged myself for
Doree: Everybody. Yes. Yes.
Kate: Ugh. I'm sorry. So I interrupted you. You were about to kindly ask me about myself. I believe.
Doree: Um, well I was going to say you probably could've used a calf him yesterday.
Kate: Okay. I, well,
Doree: That was gonna be my segue.
Kate: That was a great segue. I'm proud of you. It's so it's very cold here and I know LOL it's cold for Los Angeles, but it's in the like forties during the day. So I don't think I'm calf tanning right now. Maybe it gets into the fifties a little bit, but I could have calf tanned inside my house. Yeah. You know, what was weird yesterday? I just, I, I had to like box up a bunch of pack to send back and I did it in front of the TV and I had like a chunk of my day open and I had the news on and yesterday was the day that Russia invaded Ukraine. And I had been watching the news all morning and obviously was, you know, feeling a lot of very heavy sorrow that I know most of us are feeling. And I was like, you know what?
Kate: I need to set a boundary here. Like if watching CNN for three hours is not going to, to inform me further, I'm gonna put something else on. That's a little lighter. And I put on love is blind. The second season I started the VH one, not VH one, uh Netflix's um, dating reality show where people date without seeing each other. And then because it's a reality show, they have to pro hose and get engaged about seeing each other. And then they'd see if they're gonna make it work. And I just, it was, I was like, oh, I'm just gonna watch this. Like in the middle of the day here on the Thursday, like while I'm packing these packages. But then I was like, oh, okay. I'm, I'll just keep watching. And it just felt like such an indulgence. And, and as it was happening, I was like, do I ever let myself relax?
Kate: And then I started to get kind of sad because the whole time I was sitting there, I was like, I should be doing something I should be doing. You know, like I should be also doing this while I do this. Or I should, you know, this feeling of like, I can't just sit and watch this TV show for an hour. And, and, and while it was very nice to do that and let myself do that, I actually started to feel kind of like depressed because, mm. I work constantly. And I put a lot of pressure on myself. And also this is, you know, there's a lot going on right now with my book coming out. But I was just like, do I ever just like lounge at home? Like, I'll rest. If I'm on a vacation, you know, I'll like sit and read for a long period of time, but it's like, I rarely just relax.
Kate: Yeah. Without there being without multitasking while I'm doing it, or there being some sort of ulterior mode or I don't know. And that just made me really bummed. Like I'm just a cog in the capitalist machine. I don't know. I just was like, Jesus, it feels like it feels so indulgent to sit here at one o'clock in the afternoon and watch an hour of a reality show. Then the whole time I was like, I should be working. I should be doing something else. I should be doing all the things on my to-do list. And I was like, I'm just gonna it. I just wanna see these two random strangers meet for the first time. So I don't know. Doree, do you have thoughts on this? Like, I, I really felt like, you know, I felt, I felt Aish about this rather than like, Ooh, I love it. I love relaxing. I felt bad that I'm not, I don't do this more. And that there's, that's a sign of some larger problem.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, I think it takes a lot of unlearning, um, because we have been so indoctrinated by the cult of productivity, which of course is, you know, capitalism. I've my shifting has really, my shifting, my thinking has really, my thinking has really been shifted by the nap ministry, Instagram account.
Kate: I, I enjoy following them as well. Yes.
Doree: Um, so I don't know, maybe just like go read through their account again. Like I, I find that they're like very good at making me realize the systems that were, are kind of working within.
Kate: I mean, do I need to read my year of rest and relaxation?
Doree: Have you read it?
Kate: No.
Doree: Oh, it's not. I mean,
Kate: It's not about resting and relax.
Doree: I mean, it is, but I, I really like that book, but I don't think it's, it's, it's going to, um, provide what you're looking for. Right,
Kate: Right, right,
Doree: Right. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think that this is something that a, that a lot of people struggle with. I know I struggle with it and it's hard. I mean, and I think we, I think something that I've also struggled with is acknow that different people have different ways of relaxing mm. And turning their brains off and like, what is right for me might not be right for like my husband. You know what I mean?
Kate: Oh, yes. That's a very, very good point.
Doree: So that's been a journey and then also figuring out what does make me feel relaxed.
Kate: What does make you feel relaxed?
Doree: Like,
Kate: I mean, what's your answer?
Doree: Honestly, I've been, I've just been watching Vera every night.
Kate: What's Vira Am I stupid? What's Vera.
Doree: No, you're not stupid. Um, it is a, a British crime show about a old, old lady, detective named Vera,
Kate: You know, I'm sitting here and I'm like, Doree just said that, what, what relaxes her? Won't relax everybody. And I'm trying to remind that of myself and not make like a crack about how you love a old lady, British things, mystery things. This sounds perfect
Doree: For you. Yeah. It's perfect for me. I, I watch it. Sometimes I play a game on my phone as I watch
Kate: There a TV show. I've never heard of it. Is it?
Doree: It's on Bri box. It's not new. It's it's in it. 11th season Bri box is a service, a streaming service, but you can pay, I don't, I think it's 5 99 a month. Um, and you get access to a lot of British television shows. Gotcha. There's also one called acorn acorn TV. That has a lot of other shows too.
Kate: I, I pay for the Viki app, which is a lot of, which is how I watch a lot of Korean dramas. So I
Doree: Get it. Yeah. So same idea. Um, but what's, what's also nice about Vera is as with a lot of British dramas, each episode is 90 minutes long. It's like watching a movie. Mm. But you know, it's gonna follow this like very comforting pattern, just
Kate: Like my alien books.
Doree: It's like, and you know, that Vera is gonna figure it out in the end. She's gonna have that light.
Kate: What
Doree: Have that, she's gonna have that light bulb moment and, you know, great. Now they, they, the, the TV show is based on a series of books, obviously.
Kate: Have you read the books?
Doree: So I try, I, I did. I was like, you know what, I'm gonna read the books. So I read the first one and I didn't love it. It was very, very long and kind of convoluted. And then I realized that in the opening credits, the credits say based on the characters, like invented by the author. Oh. So it's really not like following the plots or anything of the books, like they literal just took. And it's literally just Vera, like, and I think maybe the forensic pathologists are in the books. Everyone else is different. So like, they really just paid for Vera.
Kate: Okay. Okay.
Doree: That's
Kate: Probably for the best, it sounds like they've done a, a job that is more to your liking and terms of creating a show that
Doree: Yeah. And I'm sure there are just the people I'm sure there are people out there who love the books and I don't wanna, you know, right.
Kate: That call the purists.
Doree: Right. But for me, I like, it was not, it was not, they were not for me. Um, but the show is for me,
Kate: I love that Doree. What a great recommendation we haven't talked about this show, is this like a new thing? Have you just been,
Doree: Yeah, we wait really? We haven't talked about this.
Kate: No, I know that I have a foggy memory, but I feel like I would remember a show called Vera about a British lady detective that you watch.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: On a paid app. I feel like that's too much much during this that I would forget it.
Doree: You know, maybe we've mentioned it on excellent adventure, actually.
Kate: That might be it.
Doree: Um, but okay. Then I, you know, then Vera, I recommend it
Kate: Well, and I recommend season two of love is blind. And that once again shows how different we are and what we like to do to relax.
Doree: Hey, I watch season one of love is blind.
Kate: Are you gonna watch season two? It's liket even more bonkers. I don't know. I
Doree: Found, I found season one to just be Like so annoying that
Kate: It's pretty cringy.
Doree: It's so cringy that, like, I don't find it relaxing.
Kate: You know, that's how I feel about a lot of reality shows. I get, I get that. I get that.
Doree: Um, so I don't know if I'm going watch it and it's yeah, it sounds like this one is even more like off the rails than season one. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think this also points to something that we've talked about a bunch, which is like the, um, which is TV is self-care.
Kate: Oh God. Yeah.
Doree: You know,
Kate: But even like with that, I had such a hard time I'm in the middle of a work day when my kids were at school, when I was like, I have stuff I quote, should be doing, like now is not the time where I should be sitting here relaxing, watching the show. I do that from nine, you know, I, I have an hour allotted that I can kind of do that at night. And I was like, I don't know what if I did just, it just, it just felt it was too, just really, I, I have a lot of like deprogramming to do. Yeah. And then I felt guilty. I mean, it was, it was weird. I ended up just feeling sad, like sad for myself that I couldn't just relax.
Doree: Well, you know, it's funny. I feel like, and I, I definitely do this. Um, but I, sometimes I see people like, see people be like, I, you know, I'm gonna take a vacation day and, and I'm gonna like pack all these things into it. You know, I'm gonna take a, I'm gonna go for a hike and I'm gonna get a massage and I'm gonna meet a friend for lunch and I'm gonna like, and I think that that is also a function of the fact that like, we don't have enough free time.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: And so, you know, we feel like we have to pack it all in. And I, I love that there's this movement now towards like the four day work week And just, I do, I think people need more free time.
Kate: Well, yes.
Doree: Put that out there
Kate: A hundred percent agree with you,
Doree: So,
Kate: Hmm. Well, shall we transition to talking about our guest for today?
Doree: Yes. Let us do that.
Kate: Okay. We had such a great conversation, Doree. I'm gonna pass the mic to you because you are our guest's former intern.
Doree: Yeah. I just wanted to mention that we didn't talk about it in our conversation, but, um, our guest today is Meghan O'Rourke and I was her intern in 2006. I just graduated from journalism school. I was 29. I was only like a year or two younger than she was. Um, and you know, that was, it was, it was interesting being an intern in my late twenties after I had the, like already been in the workforce and kind of had to felt like I had to sort of like take a step back in my career to move forward. Um, yeah, but Meghan was great. I definitely learned a lot from her. This was at slate and yeah, it was really fun to get to interview her. So her official bio is that she is the author of the books, the invisible kingdom reimagining chronic illness, which I should say just came out yesterday. And that is what the bulk of our conversation was focused on. And it's such an amazing book. I, we both loved it. And so, um, that's great. Highly recommended. And she also wrote a book called the long goodbye about grief,
Kate: Which I should say is one of the first books I read about grief after my mom died, because it's about her mom passing away. I didn't mention that in an interview, but her book, I, that book was, had a special place in my life.
Doree: Oh Yeah. Hmm. Um, and she has also written the poetry collections sun in days, once and half life. Her writing has appeared in the Atlantic monthly, the new Yorker and the New York times and more, and she's a former editor at the new Yorker and she served as culture editor and literary critic for slate, as well as poetry editor, Paris review the recipient of a Guggenheim fellowship, a Radcliffe fellowship, and a waiting nonfiction award. She resides in new Haven where she teaches at Yale university and is the editor of the Yale review.
Kate: Wow. We had a, such an interesting conversation about her experience with chronic illness. Um, I'm really excited for people to listen to it.
Doree: Yeah. So we're gonna take a short break and we will be right back with Meghan. Great. We are so excited today to have Meghan O'Rourke with us. Meghan, welcome to for ever 35.
Meghan: Oh, it's such a pleasure to be to this. It's such a pleasure to be here on this podcast that I've listened to for so long.
Doree: Oh yeah. We're, we're really excited to talk to you about your new book and self care and chronic illness and all, all kinds of things, illness and self care. Yes. Self care. Um, but yeah, so, you know, we do usually start by asking our guests, um, about a self-care practice that they have. So is there something that you are doing these days regularly that you would consider a self-care practice?
Meghan: Yeah. Oh my goodness. There's so many, but I've been really busy lately, so I've, I've had to let go of a lot of my self care. Um, but the thing I've really been holding onto is what, um, I didn't know was called forest bathing until recently I read an article about it, but basically we live near this woods now cause we've, we've moved out of the city to Connecticut for a period of time. So it was the first time in my life that I've been close to nature for an extended period of time. Um, and so I try pretty much after school drop off, I go and walk in the forest and I really try to turn my phone off and just be present. And, you know, it's basically nature. There's a road, but there's nature and there's woods and trees and there's a river. So it's actually been really amazing. Um, even in some very stressful moments during the Amron wave, I was able to go there and just take even a 20 minute walk and I'd come back feeling visibly D but sort of notably different, not maybe visibly different, but physically different.
Doree: Ooh, I like this. Yeah, that sounds so calming. What, what is the, can you describe kind of the sensation of walking through the forest and what you kind of get out of it emotionally and mentally?
Meghan: Yeah. So I think the first thing is that I'm usually going there after this mad rush of trying to get our children dressed and out the door when they don't want to do that. And for some reason in tum melody, right. Flaw in my life is that, like, I also feel that in that time I should have accomplished like answering 20 emails, which is just stupid and counterproductive. Right. But it's this kind of stressed morning that I, I don't seem to be able to just let go of the, I think there's this, you know, holdover from my pre my life before being a mom where I just, I like getting up and starting my day by getting some stuff done with my own. So I'm always sort of battling that desire and I really actually try not to anymore, but it's like, so there's this push pull for about an hour and a half, which I don't know why it's so hard every morning, but it is.
Meghan: So I usually enter the woods in a state of sort of frenetic, hyper where, um, my heart is racing, my cortisol is high and I'm like, I've got 30 emails to answer the next 20 minutes and kinda, I just turn my phone off. Or sometimes I listen to some music. I really like, but I silence notifications. And really within three minutes I walk on this room, it's by a river. It's very kind of bleak and bear right now where February and new England, but the river is always full of kind of lovely reflections. There's a, not a mountain, but a big, it's like a mini mountain behind us. And yeah, you just, it's like all the cortisols sort of subsides in my heart rate stabilizes. And I start noticing the water and the sticks. And I start having thoughts that are not about 25 emails and that our memories may be of childhood or just, I don't know, it's just this state of real, it really does happen.
Meghan: Calm kind of comes over me and it's like amazing perspective. And I think it's really not that bad. I can answer the emails later and it's all gonna be OK. But I dunno what it is. It turns me from a state of vigilance into a state of calm. Um, and you know, there's, it's not like the prettiest time of year, but there are times of year where it's really gorgeous where, you know, the birds are emerging and the little green leaves are unfurling. And, you know, you're supposed to part of the point of forest bathing as it, as it is termed is that you're supposed to try to notice little sounds and little tiny details. And it's a kind of meditative process where you're supposed to attune yourself to your environments, which is why putting the phone away is so important. And it, it really does work and it, 15 minutes does a lot. Yeah. And I'm always a little reluctant to emerge.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, even just listening to just describe it, I was feeling calm.
Kate: I, my like blood pressure went down. I was like, yeah. I was like,
Doree: Maybe,
Meghan: You know, maybe I can FaceTime you all one day for my forest walk and just hold the phone up along the river. And you can see the little twigs and it's pretty sweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A
Kate: River too, just that kind of the tinkling melody of a river yeah. Is also very appealing. That sounds very nice. We don't quite have, have that here in Los Angeles.
Meghan: Yeah. No, it's, it's really nice. It really is. If you look too closely, you might see, you know, a lot of litter, but I try not to, to look for it.
Doree: Well, this, this reminds me. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Kate. No,
Kate: Go ahead, Doree.
Doree: No, I was just gonna say this, this kind of dovetails nicely, I think with some of the, um, topics you raise in your book, which is about your experience, um, kind of trying to figure out what was wrong with you, um, for, for lack of a better word, medically, I should say. Yeah. What was wrong with you
Meghan: Medically well, in other ways, too, and
Doree: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Um, but one thing that you, that you discussed that I thought was really interesting was the connection between stress and specifically autoimmune diseases. And what you're kind of talking about now really made me think, you know, this is, this is really a way for someone to lower their stress level. Um, and I guess what I'm wondering is if you could talk a little bit about the ways in which stress is a factor in sick, but particularly in autoimmune diseases and how your kind of understanding of this changed your perspective on your own disease.
Meghan: Yeah, such a good question. And one that I wrestled with for a long time, um, there's a reason that even when my life gets busy, the, the practice I'm holding onto is this one of calming and sort of stress relief, right? Because for a lot of people who have autoimmune diseases or other diseases of immune dysregulation, where we often call them immune mediated diseases or diseases where the immune system itself is causing some of the damage, um, stress is a real factor in ways that we don't fully understand, but is real. Um, which is to say there are pretty good studies showing, for example, at very serious stressors in childhood, what they call adverse childhood events predict the risk of hospitalization specifically from an autoimmune disease decades later in your life, the more adverse childhood events you have, the more likely specifically that you get hospitalized with autoimmune disorders.
Meghan: So this is really fascinating, um, disturbing, mysterious connection. Um, the other, yeah. The other thing that a researcher told me early on in my work on this book was that for years, researchers thought that the immune system and the nervous system were entire distinct, but in fact, um, there have been studies where they like cut the vagus nerve in animals and they, it changes the immune system. So they're realizing that these systems are more intertwined than, than we once thought they were. And I talk about a bunch of kind of fascinating and puzzling studies in the, in the book. Um, one of the other things that I think is really challenging, um, for patients with autoimmune disease is that stress can really exacerbate your symptoms. I think in my case, I was often finding that I was sickest when I had a really stressful week, um, in ways that made me wonder we is this actually psychosomatic right before I really understood or had done this research.
Meghan: I thought, why am I always worse when I'm stressed? Is it just anxiety? Well, no, actually it's your immune system changing. And one of the things that, um, researchers understand is that, you know, stress was supposed to be episodic. The example you always hear is like, we were supposed to be happily on the Savannah and then the lion would come and we wouldn't run and stress would help us run fast and you know, not eat when we needed to run and all of that stuff. But it turns out that, you know, you don't wanna always be thinking the lion is around the corner because what it does is it ratchets your immune system kind of up and down. Your immune system actually changes under stress. It gets a little bit, um, it, it actually goes a little bit hyperactive and it gets suppressed and becomes hyperactive in different temporalities.
Meghan: And one theory is that, you know, stress was an indicator that you might be about to have like a major wound, a line would bite your arm and your body, your immune system system would need to go into action. So over time, if you're constantly experiencing this up and down, some people's bodies just go awry and they kind of just ratchet upward into a sort of possibly overactive state of, um, in immune disorder. And they found this in some patients with autoimmune diseases that they just don't go back to baseline after a stressor. Yeah. So that's a lot of answers to your question, but as you see, there's a lot of ways in which stress impacts us.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. You addressed this early on in one of the first chapters of your book, but just for our audience. Um, and just this conversation, could you kind of give an overview on what actually is an autoimmune disease, because it's something that I know for myself, I hear in conversation, it's like a buzz phrase, but yet I don't think I could articulate exactly what it is. So I found, I found your chapter very helpful on this. Um, yeah, so I think our, it would also help our audience.
Meghan: Yeah, well, no, exactly. So I first was saw a doctor who said, I think you might have an autoimmune disease. And I went home. I was a little too embarrassed to tell her, I didn't know what that was. I went home and Googled. Um, and that was the beginning of the research that became this book. But what I learned was that all these diseases I had heard of were actually autoimmune diseases. So lupus, multiple rheumatoid arthritis, a lot of thyroid disease. So an autoimmune disease is when the immune system, which we think of as our own personal defense system. Right. Sort of designed to those antibodies and those T-cells and B cells. We've all heard so much about during the pandemic, you know, in an ideal world, they're there to protect you from things like pathogens, like SARS Cove, two or a bacteria that infects, they come, they cluster around that pathogen and they hopefully get it outta your body or in a case of injury, they help tell your body that it needs to sound, you know, healing cell, white blood cells and your, you start healing.
Meghan: Right. But it, and for years, researchers assumed that your immune system would never attack your own body because it fundamentally understood what was self as they called it and what was not self. And the whole point of the immune system was to, to attack the not self, as it turns out they were wrong and your immune system can attack your own body. And it makes things called auto antibodies. So auto is the word for self right autobiography. So auto antibodies are antibodies that are designed to destroy, but what they're destroying is your own thyroid in the case of thyroid disease or your own kidney, which happens in lupus or your parts of your nervous system and things like multiple sclerosis. So it's a pretty richly metaphorical condition. And we can talk a little more about that, but it's a basic biological fact and cause for so long researchers thought it couldn't happen. We're really behind in our diagnostic tools and in our treatment of autoimmune diseases from where we are with other common diseases.
Doree: Could you talk a little bit about how COVID kind of fits into the discussion of autoimmune diseases? I, I feel like we, you know, and I mean, this is obviously anecdotal because it's personal, but I started hearing so much more about people with autoimmune diseases because it was coming up in the context of vaccines. Um, and I'm wondering how you've seen COVID 19 either, you know, shift the understanding of autoimmune diseases, raise the aware of autoimmune diseases. Um, how has that kind of affected how we think about them?
Meghan: Yeah. I think there's a few ways. Um, I think the first thing is that some of the people who are most at risk right now from COVID 19, are people with autoimmune diseases because these are people who are often on powerful immune suppressing drugs, because that's the way you get your immune system to stop, you know, attacking your own body is to just lower the immune system. There's a whole discourse in the kind of autoimmune research community about whether that's how we should be treating those diseases. But right now those are the medicines we have, like let's knock down your immune. So I think in terms of where we are right now in the COVID 19 discourse, where some people are still really concerned and wanna wear masks and some people are like, let's go back to normal. Anyone with an autoimmune disease is like, there is no normal for us right now.
Meghan: Right. We're sort of stuck in this new, new place and how do we do that? And why is there not a more robust conversation around this, that kind of honors the fact that we're people too, right? That's one piece. Yeah, another piece. And so I think a lot of those people too, were worried on early in the were worried early in the pandemic because they were on immune suppressing drugs. Um, I wasn't, but I sometimes am. And I talked to my rheumatologist and she was like, we just don't know. We just don't. So we need to keep people on these drugs cuz their diseases are really serious, but if they get COVID, we rapidly have to take them off and kind of hope for the best. So it's pretty scary. I think for a lot of autoimmune patients on those drugs, the other thing which is truly, you know, really is scary and I don't want to be alarmist, but I think we need to be really clear about this again, in our public discourse is that SARS Cove to the virus seems to trigger an almost unprecedented amount of autoimmune activity in people who get even mild cases of it.
Meghan: So a lot of viruses are triggers of autoimmune disease. We now understand this is sort of the, the research that my book really is about, which sort of even before the coronavirus pandemic was about this emerging Vanguard of researchers who are like viruses really, and bacterial infections are really culprits in a lot of these diseases. But among those viruses Epstein bar virus is one of the ones that we know triggers autoimmune disease. And like the emerging evidence about SARS Cove do just like makes Epstein bar virus look like this nice friendly virus it's so I don't know. It's pretty astonishing. Even to me, like I look at it, I'm like, can these numbers be real? So there's a lot we don't know yet. Does that autoimmune activity stay in the body six months out? We don't know, but the researchers I've been talking to are like, we are on the cusp of seeing a wave of autoimmune disease. Like we haven't even imagined. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
Kate: And, and does that correlate with long COVID essentially? Is that kind of what is, is long COVID a symptom of that or kind of part of that, if that makes any sense,
Meghan: It's makes a lot of sense, Kate and I'm yeah. It's it's we know fully, I think one thing the way I'm thinking about long COVID right now, based on the researchers I've talked to is that long COVID may turn out to be an umbrella, a really important umbrella term that captures the range of dysfunction that the, you know, acute COVID causes. I see a lot of doctors being like, well, long COVID is so vague and I'm like, well, no, that vagueness is important. It tells us how broad and how expansive the kinds of ongoing symptoms be. But what we wanna get to is an understanding of which patients fall, where under that umbrella and to your point, you know, the researchers I've talked to said they think a good percentage of those patients, you know, probably do have incipient autoimmune disease that we can't measure because we have no tools to measure early autoimmune disease. In a lot of cases, some of them have other conditions, micro clotting, nervous system disorders, things we haven't even uncovered yet. Yeah. So it's a big murky area that we really need to invest funding and urgency into. Yeah. If that makes sense.
Kate: Yeah. That's that's wild word. Like I, I appreciate you saying we're just at the tip of the iceberg because it does seem like there's so much we don't know yet. And that's, what's especially nerve nerve wracking for me.
Meghan: Yeah, yeah. It is. And right. And it's like, we have this appetite culturally to sort of nail things down and say, we, we know it, we've done it. We're moving on. And, and I think we have to really neither be unduly alarmist, but also be realist about there's just this stuff we don't know about this virus and it's not a good virus. I will say one thing which is quickly, which is the vaccines seem to be helpful in mitigating some of these ongoing effects. They don't eradicate the possibility of long COVID, but they really do seem to be helpful in mitigating some of the autoimmune activity. Even if you've got a breakthrough infection, I get very preliminary research, but another point in favor of vaccines.
Doree: Yeah. Um, it does seem like kind of the, the media is just now starting to talk about long COVID, um, as another sort of category of people who get COVID like, it's not just about, were you like, did you die or were you hospitalized? It's like, are you now living with this chronic illness? Yeah. Um, so it's, it's been, I think for people with long COVID it's it seems like it's been very frustrating based on kind of what I've seen on social media to feel like their symptoms have, have been ignored and you know, kind of not, um, taken seriously, which made me think about the chapter where you write about, um, the conversation you had with your friend about why people are like, when you tell someone about your chronic illness, why they are so quick to kind of minimize it, um, or excuse me, or kind of want to doubt it. Like the immediate reaction is, is their faking. And like you see this so much with Lyme disease as, as you know, as you talk about why, why do people have that instinct, especially when it comes to these kinds of illnesses?
Meghan: Hmm. I know, right. It's such a big and interesting question. So it did take me a whole book to answer that Doree. So I'm gonna try to give you a couple, I don't know, a couple things that I thought about, um, cause I don't wanna keep you and your listeners here all day and I could keep you here all day. Um, but I think the broadest reason, and I think this applies broadly to any chronic illness is as a philosopher, a friend of mine said to me, your suffering is burdensome to me. Right. And he didn't mean that in a negative way, he's a philosopher. So he likes to really, you know, but he meant if I actually witness, if I actually witness and take in your suffering, it does something to me, it changes me and that's hard. Right. So I think that's broadly why our illness narratives tend to be these narratives of recovery and overcoming, or ultimately the love story model, like the spiritualized death that we can all be a noble by.
Meghan: We don't really like to talk about, you know, in America, especially I think with our muscle through it culture, like we don't like to talk about the idea that like you can't overcome some things you just can't, you just can't and you have to live with them. Yeah. And it's a struggle. Um, so I think there's that piece of it, we're sort of culturally trained through popular media film, people magazine to just want that narrative of like, at least you've learned something from your illness or you're probably maybe anxious. And that brings me to the second thing, which is the legacy of the 19th century epidemic of diagnosing hysteria as the explanation for kind of vague, but were really at the time vague medical symptoms, the, the early women in the 19th century who were diagnosed with hysteria writers like Charlotte Perkins Gilman. And, um, I have brain fog and I'm forgetting another woman's name.
Meghan: Um, oh, Alice James. They had like pelvic pain and fatigue and brain fog, but their illnesses got turned into psychological illnesses by Freud and doctors who came before fre. So there's a long history there of looking at women's vague. So supposedly vague right or hard to measure physical symptoms and turning them into what Freud does, which is symptoms of a repressed truth that the, the female speaker won't say, right in particular, the female speaker, all of us, but in particular women. And so it's this incredible legacy that a shadow of this idea is still in medical exam rooms. Even if doctors aren't like studying Freud and thinking of themselves as Freudians, we still somehow have this idea that the body speaks truths. We can't say. And so when a woman, especially a young woman and for reasons of misogyny and unconscious bias and all that young women get it, the most, you show up in an exam room and you look healthy and your lab doesn't show anything as it often doesn't early in an immune media disease. Often you can't find anything. Um, the speaker is immediately seen as speaking some kind of, uh, you know, unconscious truth about her psychological state that even she can't reckon with. And the more she insists on its the physical reality, the more she becomes unreliable. So it's, it's a kind of trap, I think. So I think that's part of it too.
Kate: Yeah. Your story about the male journalist, emailing you to suggest that you read the Dr. Sarna book about act pain and then when you went back and were like, no, they just kept like furthering their argument. Um oh, yes. Was especially infuriating. Um, and you know, you also talk about how race and class contribute to kind of the, you know, the very troubling, lack of support and information and care for autoimmune disease. I mean, one thing that really stood it out for me is you note that black women get lupus at a higher rate, but most often studies about lupus exclude black women, um, which was incredibly upsetting. Um, so how, how has racism classism contributed, um, to what we don't about autoimmune disease? And do you see any positive change happening on that front?
Meghan: That's a great question. Um, I'll take the first part, which is, you know, I was talking about how the immune system is responsive to things around it, to things like viruses, but it's also to environment chemical regulation. Um, it turns out the immune system, you know, which is partly received through our mother when we pass through the vaginal canal perhaps, or, you know, in the case of C-sections, you know, if you're breast fed, you're receiving immune cells from your mother and there's data that shows like the sort of lack of social support or the presence of social support actually changes immune expression and breast milk. So there's sort of this backdrop when you really dig into it of, you know, when I, when I first got sick, sick, I thought of my disease is my problem. And the more I read, the more I saw that my disease was in fact, not an expression of my own divided self, right.
Meghan: Which is a metaphor we often hear in autoimmune disease that your, your own self is fighting itself. The more I read, the more I realized that the social is what's shaping our immune system. So right, that none of our immune systems are our owned. They're highly personalized, but they're shaped by every social encounter we have. And there's really good research by this woman named Arlene. You might have heard of it. She had this idea called weathering that she came up with to try to explain why black women often had bad outcomes, um, from illnesses and, and maternal outcomes, worse maternal outcomes. And basically she showed that structural racism affects the health of the body over time. It, it ages it, it makes it sicker. Um, and so that's a really big piece of it that we're not talking about. And you know, this is really supposition, but when you look at to the fact that, um, COVID 19 unduly was affecting black and Latinx people, that more people were dying, right.
Meghan: You think there's something like weathering at play here, right? I mean, I know conservatives wanna go to the individual, like they're not eating right. And I that's just so spurious to me and so not helpful. And in fact, it's really probably the case. Some researchers are probably working on this, that something like weathering is going on and making some people more susceptible to losing that fight with the virus. Right. So the same goes for autoimmune disease. And the biggest problem in autoimmune disease among the researchers I talked to is that they were worried that a lot of people, for various reasons, whether it was socioeconomic status, being in rural areas, language barriers, racism just weren't accessing the care that they need. And you read my book. So you saw like how persistent I had to be to get care. Right. I had to keep persisting. Yeah. And you need, you need social support to do that. So a lot of people lack that and often it's people, you know, um, socioeconomic disadvantage or people who've had racist encounters. Don't wanna go back to the doctor. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, you note the privilege that you have or had, and have going into this experience and how hard and how still, how hard it was for you to receive care, to be believed, to not be brushed off. And, um, that was just incredibly striking.
Meghan: Yeah. Yeah. And even, I, you know, I just remember doctors saying, oh, we're all tired, Meghan, you know, and sort of, it's quite heart. It's quite heartbreaking. Um, I think if, if you're alone in that way, you're alone with your illness and then you're alone feeling you don't have an ally.
Doree: Right.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: One thing I thought you did so well in your book was how you explored the kind of alternative treatment world. Um, and I was hoping you could talk a little bit about that because I, I feel like now, you know, the, the quote unquote wellness world, um, has really dovetailed with alternative the, you know, the world of alternative medicine. And you talk about one doctor who you went to, who, you know, you were like, I knew he was a quack, basically, as soon as I walked in the door, but like, you still felt like you needed to try what he was offering because you were desperate. And, you know, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that and how people who are desperate can sometimes sort of fall victim to these, um, doctors using that term loosely, but also the benefits of some of the alternative treatments that you, uh, pursued.
Meghan: Yeah. This was one of the hardest parts of the store to write, but one of the parts I felt most committed to writing, which was to talk both honestly. And I, I hope in a really dimensional way about the fact that at certain points I was so desperate that I did things kind of against my better judgment, but I really object to the way that patients are poor portrayed. I think it's pretty clear in the book that in the popular media, right, that often patients are portrayed as kind of childish and, um, not knowing what's best for them and needing, you know, the, the paternalistic care, not only of medicine, but of their loved ones. And what I wanted to convey was that the patient, the person who lives with illness is the person living with illness. And there are times when you get really desperate and you make a risk calculation.
Meghan: Right. And in my case, the risk calculation was, yeah. At the time I had no life, I, I was suffering. I was really suffering and no one was helping me and no one could really see it. And my conventional doctors were like, your labs look okay. Or, you know, there were things they found and they were helping, but I just got to the point where I thought this was before I got diagnosed with Lyme disease. I thought I'll try whatever. So I did this. It's basically what Donald Trump told Americans to do for coronavirus. Like I put ultra eye lights in my blood, not bleach, thankfully probably wouldn't be here today. Yeah.
Doree: Um,
Meghan: But you know, I went to this guy, he took blood out, he put ultraviolet light in, he put oxygen and he put it back in and later at another integrative doctor practice, what I loved this doctor, he was great, super reliable. His nurse was like, yeah, that's one. I maybe wouldn't do that. That's a risky one. Um, but you know, But even, and some people swear by it, but like, look, looking back, I'm like, I'm not gonna tell you I shouldn't have done it. Like it was a reasonable decision to make it. I was in a, I was in a corner. It was, it was, I shouldn't have been in that corner, but that wasn't my fault. That was the structural, you know, medicine was sort of at fault for putting me in that corner. So I try to capture that so that we don't just think of patients as being purely irrational, but I also try to really make the point that in my case, it was integrative doctors, doctors who have MDs, they're trained in Western medicine, but they also use holistic and alternative practices. And they take what's called like an integrative view of medicine integrating the best of all practices and seeing the body as a whole, as a whole, which is what conventional medicine really doesn't, it's very siloed, very compartmentalized.
Meghan: And you know, it was these doctors who I credit with kind of saving me when I was sickest because they, they, um, they just cared. They spent time with me. And what they did that no Western doctor did was that they tried to help my data day life get better. Um, and Western medicine was much more interested in, do we have a cure for you or medicine for you and not very interested in the question of what matters most to you, Meghan, like you're not gonna get what you're not gonna be totally healthy. So like given that, and we don't really know what's wrong with you, like, what do you wanna achieve within some constrict, let's try to help you get there. And that's what integrative and alternative medicine really did do. Um, and also it was very caring. Like my acupuncturist was a very lovely caring person who asked me questions and listened, and there was something really palpable about that. And in fact, I talk about this in the book. Like there's just tons of search that shows that when you care for somebody in an appointment, it impacts their health. It impacts their immune system. It impacts their blood sugar levels. It's, it's really kind of wild, like more than like, I think there's a study of irritable, irritable bowel syndrome, where they find found that just having a nice practitioner who was warm, had more impact on a patient's health than the most powerful drug we have to control irrit bowel syndrome.
Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay. We're back.
Kate: I wanted to ask, um, you know, as Doree mentioned, you, you write about how challenging it is to convey, to convey to friends in your community, the severity of your illness, especially when you were talking about fatigue. And I wanted to know your thoughts on how people with an autoimmune disease can effectively communicate with others, what they're experiencing, but more importantly, how can those of us in their circle who don't personally understand the experience, um, be supportive and be good listeners and be, um, good allies for them.
Meghan: Yeah, that's such an important question. I mean, the truth is that I think we need a paradigm change where so many people are testifying about these things that it's no longer the burden on any one per to claim the reality of their condition. And it's more, a cultural change has happened that, you know, just reifies and makes real this, that we all kind of understand. This is real. Um, and that's one reason I wrote the book was that I, you know, a writer couldn't talk to my family in a conversation in way that made them understand. And it was only when I wrote it down, um, in the form of a new Yorker article that my father was like, oh, I just had no idea, but reading this now I, now I have, um, you know, five steps closer to, to understanding. So I do hope we, you know, that maybe a, uh, one hope is that the pandemic and the scope of the problems coming out of it are gonna shine a light on these mysterious chronic illnesses in ways that are gonna change our national conversation.
Meghan: Um, in the meantime, I think the most important thing is not for friends and family members is not to try to solve the problem for the person living with chronic illness, right. Because the whole nature of chronic illness is that it's not solvable. Um, so I think just making yourself really available to listen without trying to reassure, um, and just listen and reflect back what you're seeing, um, and saying, I'm gonna drop some, you know, whatever, nice thing off for you, like some herbal tea, or I'm gonna do the, you know, just little gestures that I think show the reality of it. Cause one of the hardest things when you're chronically ill is that you can have really, really rough periods, um, that are bracketed by pretty periods. And it just goes on and on. So in a way you just, I never felt like I could say to my friends nor, you know, nor did I want to, Hey, I'm in a really rough period.
Meghan: Cause I just knew there were gonna be more and more and more of them, right. There was something kind of anti dramatic about them from the outside. So I think when, and I did have friends do this, people would just show care and be like, I'm really worried. I actually really appreciated it personally. When I had friends who just said, I'm really worried. I'm really worried for you. It just made me feel seen, um, they didn't try to solve that. They just said, I'm, I'm worried for you right now. Um, and that was helpful to me. It made me feel okay, this is real, someone else can detect it. Yeah. Yeah.
Doree: Well, and kinda on the medical front, um, in your chapter on solutions, you talk about what a sort of ideal care scenario for autoimmune diseases and chronic illnesses might look like and just hoping you could kind of discuss what that would look like and what are the current barriers to getting there.
Meghan: Yeah. So I think one of the major challenges for people with long COVID or autoimmune disease or chronic fatigues in which we haven't talked about, which is sort of a similar invisible illness, um, often people have overlapping conditions too. One of the problems is that the symptoms can manifest in many different parts of your body. So I had really weird neurological symptoms, but I also had terrible joint problem and endometriosis and fertility problems, like just everything was affected. So at some point I had like nine doctors and none of them ever talked to each other. Right. And one patient I interviewed was like, it just feels like your doctors are kind of crossing off their organ and saying, okay, it's not my problem. Right. And so it leads you to be the person sort coordinating and being like, wait, but I'm still not. Well, I know you've said my heart is fine.
Meghan: Yeah. But it's what, what is wrong? So I think we need centers that offer coordination of care. Um, and I talk about one in Pennsylvania called the auto immunity Institute is pretty new where they're trying to offer this really remarkable care where the doctor, you see all the doctors, they then talk to each other instantly and try to figure out if there's something they're missing, if how they can help you live. Like that's a big focus of theirs, which often in Western medicine, it's not. So I think these, these kind of truly coordinated care centers, which are hard, they're expensive, we don't have them currently. So we, we really need to make that pivot. Somehow. The other thing is that Western medicine needs to, I think, and I do think the auto immunity Institute is a good example of, and doing this as is the center for post COVID care at Mount Sinai, we need to shift from, I'm looking for a cure drug model to a, I'm looking to support you in a dimensional way, as you try to live your life model.
Meghan: And part of what's so challenging is that Western medicine operates based on replicability and studies that try to figure out if people's bodies are all working in the same way, but in these diseases, people's bodies are often working in really, really different ways. So one person with lupus could have different symptoms week to week, and her symptoms could be different from another person's symptoms. Right. And what makes her worse might be really different from what makes me worse with my connective tissue disease. So we need to pivot to an, a still evidence based model that allows for the fact that some evidence is hard to get and has to be based on trust of the patient and the patient's narrative and the patient's test. Um, there's not an algorithm in these cases. There's hard work one on one in a relationship of trust. It's really hard right now, right? There's a lot of misinformation out there. There's a lot of distrust, but somehow we need to pivot to a reparative model of trust and individualized relationships. I think, which, you know, I, I know that's a tall order, but that's the true need.
Kate: Yeah. Hmm. Meghan, what advice would you give someone who maybe suspects that they have an autoimmune disease or like any illness that is not being diagnosed?
Meghan: Hmm. The advice that I wish I'd had when I was in my twenties or, and kind of going to doctors and saying, I think something's wrong was that I, when the doctors didn't find anything, I took that at face value and I doubted myself instead, um, I thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I just was too neurotic or anxious or sensitive. So my first advice, the most important thing is, is really to trust yourself, like you are the person in your body, you it's your body, you know, things about it and how it's changed or how it's always been and how it seems different from other peoples. And you have every right to be empowered to search for the doctor. Who's gonna listen to you and trust you and help you find those answers. Um, likewise, you know, self care, um, figuring out your triggers like that is real work.
Meghan: I know there's this sort of discourse around wellness that sometimes likes to be a little like, oh, wellness Ooty, you know, but wellness is the reason we're living through this like huge inquiry people's interest in wellness is that people are really trying to solve real problems in their lives, right. With, with self care. Um, and you need to do that work. In my case, there were like food things. I realized I couldn't eat. There was like, I just, wasn't going to bed early enough. I need to go to bed early. Um, just stuff like that, you know, and instead I was in this kind of hyper frenetic, productive model where I was like, I right. I should just be able to do everything, you know, instead of being like, no, I can't. So I think just having a really honest reckoning with yourself and then trusting yourself, um, and finding those, I thought of them as like medical detectives and allies, you know, the, the acupuncturists, you love the nutritionist who really gets you, whatever it is, um, finding those things and really searching until you get the answers you need.
Kate: Well, I think this has been such an interesting conversation, Meghan, um, we re loved your book and
Doree: In case that wasn't clear. Yeah,
Kate: Yeah. It was such a it's you, you tackle such a really intense in depth. I mean, for me, it can be confusing topic, but with, with such humor and accessibility in your writing, and it was really a great read. So I think we recommend it for anybody, not just people who may be dealing with chronic illness.
Meghan: Oh, thank You so much.
Doree: Yeah. The book is the invisible kingdom. Um,
Kate: you're so welcome.
Doree: Yeah. The book is the invisible kingdom reimagining chronic illness. Um, Meghan, where else can people find you if they wanna kind of follow long with your Work?
Meghan: Yeah. So I'm on Twitter. Most of all though, I should probably not be there. Um, I, I do love Twitter. I'm on Twitter and I have a website that has my, um, upcoming events. I have a number of upcoming events and I would love to see if you're interested in these questions. If you love someone who has a chronic illness, I'd love to there, the events will be very conversation based with a lot of Q and a. So I'm really looking forward to meeting people, going through all of this, um, and starting a conversation. Yeah. My website is Meghan O'Rourke dot com. Yeah.
Doree: Great. Well, thank you again.
Meghan: Oh, thank you. Both. This was really wonderful.
Doree: That was one of those interviews where we had an, we had a hard out cuz she had to go pick up her kids and we were both like, Ugh, we wish we could talk to you for longer. Um, times, you know, sometimes those guest conversations, you just want them to go on and on, but she was like,
Kate: Well, you're learning. It's so interesting. You know, you're learning so much through the conversation. Yes. That it's so satisfying. You're like totally.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Never Leave me.
Doree: Yes. I know. And
Kate: I, I really, I wanted to just note for that her book, I think is in a really valuable read as, especially for people who have not experienced chronic illness firsthand because
Doree: Great point
Kate: I and myself included in that it was really, really, um, and important for me to read it. And I'm really glad I did. And I, I don't know if that it's a, it's something I would've picked up. Cause I would have been like, I have a chronic illness. Why would I read this? But I think in order for us to cultivate empathy and understanding for the many, many people in the world, dealing with chronic illnesses, this is uh, a fantastic read.
Doree: Yes. I agree. Well, well Kate, you and I both set intentions last week though. We did not fulfill
Kate: What the heck. You know, we were both so earnest in our intention and you know what the funniest part is, it's things that we've wanted to do before. It's not even like these are new Kate and Doree isms.
Doree: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true.
Kate: These are like old hats. Well you wanted to do, you had done a restorative yoga class and, and let us say like, when we first started doing forever 35, every Sunday night, Doree would go to an in person restore art of yoga class.
Doree: I did, yeah. It, it was at six, so it was at 6:00 PM, but that was before I had Henry.
Kate: Right. Right. And then I remember you did some early on at the beginning of the pandemic, possibly you were doing it like some Zoom Restorative yoga.
Doree: Well, I was no, I, well, it wasn't a live class. I was doing some yoga with Adrian, Um, um, on YouTube cuz she has these great like 10, 20 minute, um, restorative yoga, like end of day videos. And so I was doing a lot of those, but
Kate: Um, but you didn't do on this week, which is fine.
Doree: Exactly.
Kate: That was your intention to do 20 minutes
Doree: And I didn't. Um, but my intention this week is sort of inspired by what we were talking about at the top of the show. You know, I, as I said, I'm going away this weekend and I do just wanna like relax and enjoy myself. I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna say I'm gonna take social media off my phone. And like, I'm just, I'm gonna just like try to just chill.
Kate: Okay. I love this for you. I hope you have a great trip. You're gonna have so much fun. Thank you.
Doree: Thank You so much.
Kate: I hope you have some laughs. I hope you feel the energy of Joshua tree and just, Take in all the vibes, taking all the vibes story.
Doree: There's Gonna be so many vibes.
Kate: So many vibes, so many healing, holistic energy VI energy vibes.
Doree: Yep.
Kate: I mean it, you, you have to be a cliche when you go out to Joshua tree kind of sometimes,
Doree: Right? Oh, I mean, hence the caftans
Kate: That's fair.
Doree: So,
Kate: Well I wanted to plan a beautiful Italian recipe to cook and I didn't do it. And you know what the most frustrating thing is I happen to be out of town this weekend and Julia Turshen, her cooking class is doing like this amazing Italian meal. I'm so mad. I wanna do her live cooking class so badly, but I'm, I'm not gonna be around for it. So I don't, I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep sticking to this.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Haunted by the ghost of my great grandmother, she hovers above me in the kitchen. I will,
Doree: Oh the Sunday Supper.
Kate: I will commit to this. Yeah. And I think like with my great grandparents, they were just like killing rabbits in their backyards. I don't, I'm not sure. You know, I'm not doing that, but I'll do some sort of supper. Sure. Maybe I'll do it this Sunday. Okay. I'm gonna work on it.
Doree: I'm excited for you.
Kate: Well, if I ever get my act together, I will invite you guys over for this Sunday supper. Once I go, I have it down. All right. All right. Well
Doree: This was great, Kate as always.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, look what fun, what a life we get, where we just have to, like, we get to talk to each other and it's our job. I know. It's really fun. So great. It's what do you do for work? I talk to my friend three times a week. I mean it so much more than that obviously, but you know, that is the, that is the, just, that is the fun, the best part. Oh, well anyway, this podcast for 35 is hosted and produced by do Shrier and Kate Spencer. And it's produced and edited by Sam Junio and Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast.
Doree: Thanks everyone.
Kate: Bye.