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Mini-Ep 335: Let Hand Image Go

Kate intentionally wanders into a new nail salon and Doree gets excited to try a new primary care doctor. Then, listeners ask if it’s normal to hate your home after vacation, how Kate knew she was socially anxious, and the best way to acknowledge someone’s grief. 

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Transcript

Kate: Hello everyone, and welcome to Forever 35, a beautiful podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.

Doree: And I am Doree Chare.

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: We are not, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate: And this is a mini episode where we hear from you, we share your comments and your thoughts, and we answer your questions to the best of our ability.

Doree: But please remember, we are podcast hosts. We're not experts, and we always encourage you to seek support first and foremost, from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.

Kate: If you would like to reach us, please, I beg of you, leave us a voicemail, send us a text message at 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9, or you can email us at forever 35 podcast gmail.com

Doree: Indeed. And we have a website forever 35 podcast.com. For links to everything we mentioned on the show, you can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 Pod on Instagram at February 35 podcast. Join the Forever 35 Facebook group at facebook.com/group/five podcast. We also have a newsletter at five podcast.com/newsletter. And you can shop all the products we mentioned on the show arranged very pleasingly thematically@shopmy.us slash five, and get your orders in for the balance bound forever 35 collab. Get that DO'S hotel set. Get those stickers,

Kate: Put 'em on your

Doree: Computer. Get that magnetized notepad.

Kate: Yeah. Oh, I love a magnetized notepad, don't you Like I love a door, a fridge door notepad.

Doree: A fridge door. <affirmative>.

Kate: <affirmative>. There's something so hopeful about a brand new fridge door notepad that's gonna solve it. Yeah.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: It's funny. We received it. Might solve it. I mean, look, I'm desperate. I'll try anything at this point. We received, we've received some suggestions of hotel themed products that we need to create. So a robe buckle up, a robe, a line of hotel skincare products. Some slippers.

Doree: Yeah, maybe some of those little soaps.

Kate: Oh, I love a little soap. Nothing. I love more than taking a little soap from a hotel.

Doree: Yeah. I mean, they don't have as many little soaps anymore, which I get know. I mean,

Kate: I learned from

Doree: The best environment and everything.

Kate: Sure. But I had a grandmother who was basically a professional at, I wouldn't say stealing, but taking advantage of the free things that you get. She just had only ever had hotel soaps at her house. That was the soap.

Doree: Oh. Same with my grandfather. I feel like it was, I also think it was a souvenir kind of thing. Interesting. In the same way that he had a lot of matchbooks. It was like you had soaps from various hotels.

Kate: But did he take the salt and pepper shakers from airplane food trays?

Doree: No, he did not.

Kate: Okay. So that's what I'm dealing with over here. That's what Grammy Elsie was up to. She was a legend though. I, I feel like I learned my best tricks from her. She had a lot of miniature tiny lipsticks that she used to give me. Pretend lipsticks. Oh, cool. I don't know where they came from. Were those things you would get at the department stores? Like a present, a gift? I don't know. But she used to gimme tiny lipsticks. I was never the same. Oh, I know

Doree: That.

Kate: Well, can I show you something?

Doree: Yes, please.

Kate: Okay. So I just wanna note to everyone that we record, we're not in person. We are via video chat. Look at my nails.

Doree: Ooh. Pretty well. Can I show you mine?

Kate: Okay. <laugh>, we have the same nails. I wish I could take a wish. Take a screenshot of both. Our hands are in the air showing each other our nails. We basically have the same red nails.

Doree: I

Kate: Love them. Very nice. I love mine too. And I don't like to show my hands.

Doree: I was just gonna say, I feel like this is big for you in particular because you don't like your fingernails. Don't, It's like nice to see you being proud of your nails.

Kate: I have to tell you, I put out a call in a variety of local Facebook groups that I'm in and I said, I need someone to find me. I need a nail salon unicorn somewhere. I can have a long term relationship the same way people do with a hair stylist, let's say, where I can build trust with this person and my nails won't get nad damaged, my nails won't get damaged, and I can work on growing my nails out with a manicurist

Doree: <affirmative>

Kate: <affirmative>. So some folks recommended this nail salon that I have been visiting, and so far they have really been amazing to the point where I feel like we, I'm building a trust in that I'm articulating my fears and my concerns. And I'm not ashamed to be like, I bite my nails, but I don't chew them. I dig my teeth under them. And I've just kind of laid it all out. And I was like, Here's the deal. I have nail shame. I have weak nails, I have thin nails. I've damaged nails. I bite my hands. Is there hope for me? And they were like, Yeah, your nails are our nails now. And so here I am

Doree: <laugh>

Kate: And

Doree: They like this place.

Kate: I do. I've only had a couple times, so I want to make sure that I'm in a committed relationship with them before I start shouting them out on the pod. But they've just been wonderful and they're extremely gentle. There's no drills, which give me the drills really give me a lot of ADA because they damage. They always damage my nails. And any time I try to ask for it to be buffed off, people are always like, No, the drills are fine. And I'm like, Okay, I don't know what I'm talking about. And then the nails always get damaged. But

Doree: That's so weird because I feel like whenever, and I haven't had gels in a while, but when I used to get gels, they would just wrap them in nail polish remover and then just scrape them off. I never used, I've never had a place that used drills. So that surprised me,

Kate: I feel.

Doree: And I feel like they were gaslighting you, <laugh>

Kate: <laugh>. I mean, I appreciate it. I think ultimately it comes down to the business of a nail salon is that drills are fast and easy and there's sure lots of consideration that goes into it. But my nails were just getting so damaged. And so they've been really thoughtful with what products to use, what gel to use, when I should take off the gel, how they're removing the gel, what I should be doing at home to keep my cuticles hydrated. And so far, both my paint manicured nails and my manicured nails are growing. They look nicer than I think they've ever had in my life, have in my life. So that's been weird and exciting. I don't know. I feel like I don also don't wanna get my hopes up because I feel like I do this journey a lot. I've done this a lot on this show where I've been like, I've discovered it, the thing that's gonna cure my nails and my nail anxiety, and then that doesn't happen. But I'm cautiously optimistic right now.

Doree: This is very exciting.

Kate: And this

Doree: Feels like a real game changer for you.

Kate: I'm wondering, I'm like, is this gonna be it? Is this gonna be the thing? And they use orally nail products, which I have now been using their recommendation. And I'm really liking, I've been using orally cuticle oil and cuticle cream and just that has also just been, I don't know. I'm a fan. I'm a fan.

Doree: I love this. This is so great. Okay.

Kate: So we'll see what happens. But right now my nails look good enough that I felt comfortable flashing them in front of Doree. Now you do not have a gel. You do not have gel on. You just have a regular

Doree: I do not have gel on, but I do have dazzle dry on. Are you familiar?

Kate: Yes. And I am obsessed with Dazzle Dry. Okay. Number one, obsessed with it because the name is the worst. But it seems like a, It's a great product,

Doree: I have to say. It's a great product. It's a fast drying nail polish <affirmative> that also lasts longer than a regular polish. I love my sc, I love my opi, but I usually get chips within a couple days, if I'm being honest on my hands, my feet. I can't get regular polish. It's fine. But my hands, I like to get the dazzle dry. And I was like, You know what, I'm gonna get the dazzle dry and I'm gonna go red because I don't think it's gonna chip as easily. So here I am with my red dazzle, dry nails.

Kate: And how long do they normally last for you? They look really good.

Doree: Thank you so much. I mean, at least a week with no chips, which is

Kate: A miracle

Doree: For me. Yeah, that's like a miracle. So we'll see how long they last. I mean, I also, I keep my nails pretty short and I usually go for a pill pink. But I was like, You know what, I'm just gonna go for it. I'm about to get on a plane <affirmative>, I want something fun.

Kate: <laugh> <affirmative>, <affirmative>. And it's

Doree: Fall. And it's fall. So yeah, that's where we're at.

Kate: I would love someone to break down the science of why hands and the way we care for our hands. And looking at other people's hands is so, is such a thing culturally, why do I care what my hands look like? There's an element of first impression with hands that I don't know, that's something, something that I just, it's thinking about could I let it go? Interesting. Could I let my hand <laugh> hand call the same way we're trying to let body image stuff go. Could I let hand image go?

Doree: Maybe.

Kate: I don't know. I mean, really, I'm so clearly fixated on it.

Doree: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. For me, I like looking down at my fingers and seeing that little pop of color. It is very fun and satisfying to me to see that. So I don't know the answer is maybe <laugh>. Well,

Kate: It's interesting. Similar to makeup, nail and nail art is a form of expression. And it's a form. It is a form of art. And I think the same way, makeup and clothing and decorating our bodies can also be art. But then it just gets all tangled up in so many other things. Wow. Food for thought. Yeah. That's all

Doree: Food for thought.

Kate: Well, in addition to your nails, how are you doing over there? Door?

Doree: I'm pretty good. I'm going to a new primary care doctor today, which is exciting and I will report back. But finding a new doctor is, it's stressful.

Kate: It's like a job. It is a job.

Doree: It kind is. And so I hope I like her and we'll see. I mean, I definitely will tell everyone how it goes, but I had been going to been going, Oh, I'll just say where I've been going. I've been going to one medical for years and I loved them, but a lot of their doctors started quitting. And the primary that you get got assigned a primary care doctor. And my primary care doctor left. And then the other doctor that I would see sometimes when my primary care person wasn't available, he also left. And then I made an appointment with a new primary care doctor who people had recommended and she left. And then I was like, Well, this is a sinking ship. I'm just gonna not, and it's a membership thing and I'm just not gonna renew my membership. And then two months later, Amazon announced that they were buying them, and then even more people left. And so I was like, Okay, maybe this was a sign. So this new doctor is not affiliated with any service one medical or chain or whatever. So we'll see how it goes, but I'm looking forward to it. I think

Kate: <laugh>, look at you taking care of your health.

Doree: Look at me. Well, I mean, full disclosure, this all came about because I'd always gotten my Wellbutrin through my primary care doctor and I was like, Oh wait, I don't have a primary care doctor anymore. I'm gonna run out of meds. So I was like, Okay, let me take care of this.

Kate: Good. That is ultimate self

Doree: Care. And t

Kate: Those meds go,

Doree: I'm glad. No, and I'm glad that I made the appointment when I did because she didn't have availability for a couple of weeks, <affirmative>. And if I had waited till now, I would've run out. So that was just like, Oh, okay. Pat myself on the back. Then I remembered that

Kate: <laugh>. Good work. Doree.

Doree: Thank you so much, Kate.

Kate: All right, well let's take a little pause and we'll come back and hit up the cues and the comments.

Doree: All right. B r b.

Kate: Okay, well, we've gotta really, I mean it, it's a text that made me chuckle. I don't wanna say it's funny because it involves somebody losing something, but this really made me laugh. Okay. All right. So this listener wrote to us, Hi ladies. This is the listener who called in on the sunglasses issue and suggested that investing in a pricey pair might make one, keep with up with them better. And said, I'd done that with a Tom Ford pair. After years of being afraid from the earlier episode, I'd followed Kate's recommendation and got a pair of las specs on sale. Just had to report back because dot, dot, dot. I've already lost the las specs on a trip last weekend. Oh my God. Still have the Tom Fords I got in 2014, though. No,

Doree: No, no. Mean,

Kate: Mean. Number one, it sucks. I hate losing anything no matter how much it cost $1 or $1,000, it's annoying and frustrating. But maybe this listener is onto something.

Doree: Maybe

Kate: Having same sunglasses since 2014. I mean, that is eight years ago

Doree: Now. That is really impressive.

Kate: Not only is that impressive, how have you not scratched them? How have you not just started shoving them into your bag without a case? What kind of wizard are you?

Doree: These are great questions.

Kate: Now, I will say in this, listen, to kind of speak to their hypothesis, I purchased a pair of Celine sunglasses secondhand from another person in Los Angeles in a buy sell trade group that I'm in <affirmative>. And they were more expensive than what I normally spend on sunglasses. And I do take very good care of them. I keep them in their case, in my car. I know where they are at all times, as opposed to my other sunglasses that I really just roughhouse. So I don't know. Oh, okay. Maybe there's something to this. Maybe there's something to this.

Doree: I mean, I get it in theory, you know, would take care of something more expensive. You would be more careful with something more expensive. And I feel like I generally am, except when it comes to sunglasses,

Kate: I know, same.

Doree: There's just something about sunglasses and glasses that I, I don't know, I just can't,

Kate: I get it.

Doree: I just can't get it. I can't keep track of them. This is, and this is a me problem. I fully admit

Kate: That. No, I think there's just something about the way in which we're like, you know, handle glasses. I'm taking them on and off all the time. Throwing 'em here. I'm throwing 'em there. Yes. Throwing my bedside table. Yes, my dog's eating them. I mean, it's just they do the work. They do the work. Yes, yes, yes. All right. Switching gears a very funny voicemail that I actually was very intrigued by this question and I wanted to get some thoughts.

Voicemail: I have a question or question and more of a need for you to validate my weirdness here. So I just got back to my house after two weeks of being away. Half of that time I was in a hotel, and the other half of the time I wasting at a house that was clean and kind of farse and minimalist. There was a pool there. I do not have a at my own home. Anyway, so I'm back at my house now, and I hate it. I hate every little thing about my house. Is this normal to come back from vacation and just hate the house? I DT know just now, I see so much clutter in my, and maybe it's the, I'm the one that has to clean it up when on vacation somebodys cleans up after you. I dt what it's, But I've never been so grumpy, just being in my own home. I'm a homebody by nature. And home is so, but now it's just giving me is it just me? I don't know me, help me. I wanna burnt my house down and move. Or just be on vacation permanently. And anyway, love you. Can't wait to go stay at Doree's Hotel. Even if it means I hate my own home when I come. It just be a permanent resident. Love you. Bye.

Doree: I totally relate to this

Kate: A lot. This is not weird at all.

Doree: No, I have a suggestion, and maybe you are already a person who keeps their house neat as a pin. But I do find that reentry is made a little bit easier when I clean my house before I leave

And make my bed and have clean sheets, have not have an overflowing laundry basket, Not have to do dishes, just have all the cleaning stuff that you can do done before you go. Because then at least you're coming home to a clean house. And it's totally normal to have a little bit of a letdown when you come home. Especially if you've been staying in a nice hotel or even just another place because it's novel, it's new. So I totally get that. But I have found that making a little bit of effort to have my house be clean before I leave does pay off in the end.

Kate: Kate talks. Yeah, I mean, I actually think that's a great advice. And this resonated with me. I, I'm a homebody in a lot of ways, but our house is always a cluttered mess. And I'll clean it and it's immediately a mess. And that's just what it is going to be with four people, two of them children, two dogs, one praying mantis. That's just what it is. And so I've had to let that go a little bit. But I mean, I think he spoke about this on the pod. I went and visited one of my best friends and her wife and stayed in their home. They don't have children, they don't have any pets. They take their shoes off when they come in the door and being in their house was being at a bed and breakfast. There was a weird, I

Doree: Remember when you went <laugh> and you were just like, Oh my god, <laugh>. It

Kate: Was, not only was their house, and this is a normal house. It's not like I'm staying in a mansion. It's a beautiful home, but just a house. But it was just like there, It was just so nice. It was so clean. They do the dishes right after they eat. My best friend made me sour dope waffles with a blueberry compose that they had made. And I was like, What is happening? And you just realize, well one, they were hosting, so maybe they had cleaned, but it was like, oh, they're, I felt so at ease in their home. And then I went back to my house and it's like, I don't have a reading nook. I have literally, I can't eat on the dining. Every night we go to eat on our dining room table, Doree. And I just shove, shove a bunch of stuff over to one side.

I'm talking like a sock, crumpled dollar bill Like a covid test. I mean, it's bonkers. So yeah, I mean this is just normal. There's nothing wrong with you. And essentially, anytime you stay at someone's house or how sit or in a vr, a VRBO or Airbnb or a hotel, there's a, there's fantasy. It's not real life. So I think that's important to remembers. Even if you did live in that minimalistic house with the pool, there'd be a rat that died in that pool and you'd have to scoop it out with a net and there would be issues. There would be things that would bug you that would be disgusting and gross and annoying there too. Sorry for that. Real specific detail about a rat dying in a pool. But that happens a lot. It happens a lot. <laugh>. Really gross. Oh god. Okay, well we have one more text before we take a break. You wanna read this story? Sure.

Doree: Okay. Hi Kate. I was just listening to mini app 3 29 and you mentioned all the things packed in your away suitcase. Hearing you mention social anxiety made me think of a new revolution I might have come to. I always just thought I was a huge introvert, but I was describing why I thought I was introverted to someone recently. And they said it sounded more like social anxiety. It's never a label I had even considered. And now I wanna dig into this more. How did you realize that you have social anxiety and what are the things you did to educate yourself on it? As a side note, I'm in a profession where self confidence and communication are important. So I see this realization as important to both my overall satisfaction in life and my professional success. Thank you.

Kate: Oh, hello. Well, how did I realize I have social anxiety? Well, I don't know. Just at some point it dawned on me that the way I am isn't like there's a reason the way I am. And I think ultimately I describe myself recently as a socially anxious extrovert. And I think that kind of nailed it in that I love being around people and I get really fulfilled with people. And if I bet if you met me, you wouldn't necessarily know that I'm get anxious socially. I'm pretty good conversationalist. I love meeting people, I love learning about people. But it kind of all formulated one, I have an anxiety disorder, so that's just part of it. And two, a long time ago, a therapist recommended that I read the book, Highly Sensitive Person. And that was a real awakening for me and learning a little bit about who I am and how I am and why I am the way that I am.

And I think one part about being socially anxious and understanding it is it's helped me learning cognitive behavioral therapy because I am able to now have some perspective on why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling, or how to handle my kind of nervous energy in social situations and that sort of thing. I think it's also very normal. I think a lot of us experience this kind of thing. So I haven't sat and read books or literature about it. I think the biggest thing is talking about it with my therapist and kind of just deepening my understanding of just myself. And if a label isn't serving you, there's no need to hold onto it, whether it is applicable or not.

I dunno if that helps. I also wanna say being introverted or being socially anxious doesn't mean that you don't have self confidence or that you aren't good at communication, et cetera, et cetera. I just wanna make sure you, you know that about yourself, right? Cuz they say they're in a profession where self-confidence is important. It's just, I think also, and then I'll stop talking. It's also understanding how to nourish yourself after socializing. And I think that's probably important for introverts and extroverts, but just knowing or knowing, Oh, this is getting to be too much. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna leave now. It's okay if I leave the situation earlier or if it's, It's okay if I end this conversation in a way that's kind of clunky. It's all knowing how to nourish yourself in the situation so that you don't tap out or pendulum swing in the more challenging direction, I think is really important.

Doree: I like that. Kate,

Kate: Any thoughts? I mean, do you identify as socially anxious? I don't believe that you do, but I think sometimes you are introverted. Do I have that right? What do you think? Are you me an inverted extrovert or an extroverted introvert?

Doree: I think I'm an introverted extrovert.

Kate: <affirmative>. <affirmative>.

Doree: I don't love situations where I'm gonna have to go talk to people who I don't really know, <affirmative> or even people who I sort of know.

Kate: Those are the hardest ones. I think those

Doree: Are hard because you parents of kids in your kids' class who you might not know very well, you kind of know them, but you don't really know them.

Kate: <affirmative>, you don't know what to talk about.

Doree: You don't know what to talk about. The common thing you have is your kids, so you can talk about your kids or kind of talk about the school, but if it's a party situation, is that really what everyone wants to be talking about? And then I get in my head and I'm like, Oh God, they're probably just bored talking to me and then looking for a way out and then it just, I start overthinking the conversation. I'm trying to get better at small talk because I do think that small talk is a skill and I think it is something that you can get better at. And I am, I've trained as a journalist, I do ask people questions, and I think that is a way to continue the conversation <affirmative>, but sometimes I just feel like I'm at a loss and I think there is an element also of social anxiety where I'm like, Oh, this person is just biting their time till someone more, someone cooler or more interesting comes along. Oh, I feel that a lot too. Yeah. In that sense, Covid was kind of great because you didn't in those situations, <affirmative> or I shouldn't say, I should say I'm still, I haven't gone to a big party in a long time, but that also means that I think I've built it up a little bit more in my head. I don't know.

Kate: Yeah, I feel, I went to an author's reading this weekend and I was like, Oh my gosh, I haven't talked to this many people. I don't know how to do it. <laugh>. I don't know how to, I just felt like I couldn't work my mouth in the way I wanted, but I got through it and then I had to remind myself, Nobody thinks you're weird. We're all weird. No one's, No one's sit really sitting here judging you. It's okay. You're okay. Self-compassion is really key, I think.

Doree: Yeah, it's hard. It's hard in social situations, I find. It is.

Kate: It is. And it is. There is a readjustment right now. Doree. That's a good reminder. Yeah. All right. Break time.

Doree: Break time, baby.

Kate: Brb

Doree: Brb.

All right. We're back with a text in response to the question about what to say to the coworker, Returning to work after a loss. After my husband died and I returned to my regular routine, one person really stood out. It was a trainer at the gym whom I'd seen almost daily for years and had a good relationship with. He looked me in the eye and simply said, It's good to have you back. The gym group had already sent flowers in a card and had donated to an education fund for my daughter, so they'd acknowledge my loss. But this simple phrase allowed me to smile and say, Thank you, and move on without any added pressure. On the flip side, I hated walking into work and having everyone ask how I was to quote Nora McInerney, the answer is terrible. Thanks for asking, or keep telling me they were sorry. Everyone is different, but I really appreciated the simplicity of, It's good to have you back. Wow. Look at the personal trainer coming in with,

Kate: Yeah, trainers have to talk to people. The see phrase here all day long, that

Doree: Is

Kate: About so true anxiety. They know how to communicate or they should know how to communicate. I mean, that's a great, I love this. I love, it's good to see you. I love this kind of statement greeting as opposed to the question, which then puts the onus on the other person. I even try this in everyday conversations, which is saying, It's so good to see you, or it's just easier, rather than, How are you? And then the person has to be like, Oh, so I love this suggestion, listener. Thank you. This is so brilliant.

Doree: Yeah, I'm gonna use that. If I'm ever in this situation, I'm gonna use that. Or just like it's go. It's good to see you again.

Kate: Yeah,

Doree: And I think this listener emphasized, the trainer made eye contact it, it felt very sincere, is what I'm getting from this interaction. <affirmative> without any expectation being placed on the person, which I think is so key. Kate, you were saying it's not a question.

Kate: I love that. All right, Well, here's another response we received on the same topic this person wrote to us back in 2020. I was the coworker with a loss, and I was so afraid of someone saying something UNT intentionally hurtful. A lot of folks don't know what to say in response to men's grief as it makes them uncomfortable. I received a lot of well-meaning, but truly awful platitudes from friends and family. In the wake of my infant son's death, if you are ever the person returning to work after a significant tragedy or loss, I recommend preemptively sending an email, letting your coworkers know how you'd like them to interact with you. In my case, I let my colleagues know that while I was still experiencing tremendous grief, I would mostly act like my normal self, and they should feel free to do the same around me. If they really wanted to talk about my son, they could bring it up with me, but I would not take offense if they did not. Several people thanked me for my email and said it was very helpful, so I'm passing this advice on with a sincere hope that you will never have to use it. Sending all the listeners experiencing grief, my love,

I'm sorry, this is such a gracious thing to do. As the person who is grieving. You gave those people such a gift and I really, really admire that

Doree: <affirmative>,

Kate: And I do think if it's in your emo capacity, to have the say in how people approach your grief is really powerful if you can do it. So I think that's really, really moving.

Doree: All right. We got one last email about this. My dad died several years ago when I was working in an elementary school teaching fourth grade because my parents lived over two hours away. No one from the school came to my dad's wake or funeral. Obviously, I received tons of cards, dinners, fruit, et cetera. But the first day I got back, we had about half an hour. We had about a half hour window before school started, and the teachers and administrators were lined up at my door to express their condolences. It was almost like a mini wake. Beautiful, but overwhelming. There were a lot of tears, which of course was difficult when you have fourth graders bombarding the room. Minutes later, one male colleague very simply breezed by me in the hall with a huge smile and said, Welcome back. Quite honestly, that meant as much to me as all of the sweet colleagues who stopped by to give me a hug. I obviously don't have an answer to the listener's question since I experienced and appreciated both gestures of sympathy.

Kate: I love that.

Doree: I mean, what I'm kind of taking away from this is just like acknowledge. Just acknowledge. People wanna feel acknowledged, especially when they're grieving.

Kate: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you know this listeners, but I wrote a whole book about this called The Dead Moms Club, and I talk about how my college boyfriend never acknowledged that my mom died to me, even though we had been in touch, and boy did that fuck me up. It fucked me up to the point where I'm not in touch with them anymore, because I was like, I'm out anyway. So yes, acknowledge. Even if you don't just say acknowledge, acknowledge, acknowledge. Good point, Doree. You're a genius.

Doree: Oh, well, thanks. Well, Kate, this has been a pleasure as always, listeners. Thank you for listening. Bye.