Doree and Kate get prepped and ready for summer vacation and hear from listeners about how to replace the phrase “You look great” or any other compliment about someone’s body.

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Transcript

Kate: Hello, and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer

Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot. And I do mean a lot about serums.

Kate: And this is a mini episode where we hear from you. We share your comments and your thoughts, and we answer your questions to the best, our ability.

Doree: Indeed we do. But please do remember. We are podcast hosts. We're not experts. And we always encourage you to seek support first and foremost, from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.

Kate: If you would like to reach us. Our voicemail number is 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9 0. And our email is forever 35 podcast, Gmail, aka.com.

Doree: You can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. You can also check out all the products that we mentioned on the show arranged in a kind of easier way to navigate fashion@shopmyshelf.us slash forever 35. And you could follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod on Instagram at forever 35 podcast. Join the forever five Facebook group, facebook.com/groups/forever five podcast. The password there is serums and do sign up for a newsletter five podcast do com slash newsletter.

Kate: So hello, my friend gold door. How are you?

Doree: I'm okay. How are you?

Kate: I good. You know, we're recording this a little ahead of time, but, um, two days after this episode comes out, I will be celebrating my 43rd birthday. Happy,

Doree: Happy birthday to you. How are you feeling about this?

Kate: I feel fine age in terms of like, the number has yet to kind of unsettle me Uhhuh <affirmative> I expect it could happen at any time. And I think that's a really valid way to feel when you all of a sudden you're like, what? I mean, there is a party that's like, what the fuck? I'm 43.

Kate: Yeah. When did, how did that happen? I still feel like I'm in college. Yeah. Um, I've actually kind of been thinking more about how I can. I, I like, like, I don't know. I find, I think some way that the people feel about new year's I kind of feel about my birthday where it's always a time or at least a has been in recent years where I'm like, where am I? What am I doing as a person, intellectually, spiritually, professionally, emotionally cetera, et cetera. Do I like it? How do I feel? What do I wanna be doing with my life?

Doree: Okay. So it's a, it's a big time for some self-reflection

Kate: Self-reflection and honestly some self care.

Doree: Okay. There's

Kate: Gonna be some self care happening.

Doree: Yeah. Do you have anything planned?

Kate: Well, I have no like party planned. I don't like birthday parties. I think we've talked about this before. I don't like parties thrown in my honor. They give me a lot of an it's not social anxiety. It's people, pleaser, anxiety of worrying about everybody having a good time. Like, I, I don't, I don't think I've ever really enjoyed a birthday party. And quite honestly, I haven't really had that many. I prefer like dinner with friends or like, you know, an activity with my husband. Yes. Or one friend. Yeah. You get it. You get me.

Doree: I do, I do get it.

Kate: So I've been doing some health stuff and that has kind of caused me to really think about like how I'm taking care of myself, both inside. Well, mostly just inside. How am I taking care of my insides? Like my guts, my food, my food, the food, I eat all that. But also like, how am I managing my stress in a way that actually helps? I don't know that I am. So I thought it was kind of like, how am I gonna use this birthday to like recenter myself? And also this time off of, from the podcast, I'm not gonna be off from work completely or parenting or any other thing else that I do. But just to have a little free time from the pod to kind of maybe, I don't know, do a couple things to take care of myself.

Doree: Do you have any specifics that you'd like to share?

Kate: Okay. Well, tomorrow I am going the infrared sauna.

Doree: Oh, that's exciting.

Kate: Yeah. I mean, without going into too much detail, I I'm starting to, could become convinced that I have some symptoms of long COVID or just like my COVID hasn't quite gone away yet. I don't. Yeah. I don't know. So I've been talking to my doctor and anyway, I have done some research. It's all anecdotal. There's been like, no, obviously, like it's been too soon to really study this stuff, but, um, yeah. I'm gonna go to do an infrared sauna, just a session, just like a few minutes in the sauna, juice myself up with some of that red light.

Doree: I can't wait to hear how this goes for you.

Kate: I mean, I've been before, I've never told you about my infrared sauna in days. I've never talked about this on the podcast.

Doree: I don't, so,

Kate: Oh, I'm a big infrared sauna fan. Was

Doree: This prepo or like,

Kate: This was like,

Doree: It

Kate: Was, how did I keep this secret from you all?

Doree: Wow.

Kate: I love an infrared sauna. Here's the deal for me? It's like, if this is doing something great, if it's not, it still feels good. So I'm, I'm happy either.

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> can you tell those of us who have not done an infrared sauna? What it actually entails?

Kate: Sure. So, uh, I don't, I don't know the science of what the fuck infrared light is that tells you how much excellent research I have done people claim that sitting under or around an infrared sauna light, or an infrared light, it can have various benefits, everything from like helping your immune system to like reducing body pain, to like blood circulation. I have some friends who, you know, have gone through cancer and chemotherapy who like swear by it. Um, and again, it's one of those things where it's like, is there extensive research that proves their, uh, genuine healing capabilities? I, I don't know. Is it one of those things where it's like, I'm doing this and this is like a wellness thing that doesn't do anything possibly. Um, but you basically, so when you go to the INFR sauna, it's a private little room and you have your own little tiny like booth and yeah. And they set, you know, they'll set you up. And as a first timer, they put you on kind of the lowest heat setting and the place where I go. They also give you like a little droplet of, um, essential oil to kind of SC the room, if you so like, and you get a lot of towels

Kate: And you just sweat it out. And I don't bring my phone in often because, um, it'll overheat as it does in the sun and you sweat, you know, for 25 minutes. And it helps me, it helped me relax. It was helping me relax. It helped me, like when I had a really bad cold, I was going a lot and that was helping. Um, I just kind of liked it as a, as a way of like mentally helping me kind of relax and slow down. So I'm, I'm gonna go, I'm give myself the month of July to kind focus on taking better care of myself. I was gonna go once a week to the infrared sauna. And again, I can't from you.

Doree: I mean, look, Kate, it is possible that we talked about this.

Kate: I mean, we have COVID is like a thousand episodes. I know we've recorded

Doree: A gajillion episodes and also like, honestly, pre COVID times are like, uh, what, what even was pre COVID times. Can you

Kate: Believe we did a podcast before COVID and talked about just other things?

Doree: I mean, no, yeah.

Kate: <laugh> oh, to be clear here's this is it. So the way this differs from like a steam sauna at the spa is that it uses infrared lamps. So there is allegedly a difference between, you know, this and just go the, to the spot. Although I love, like, I love another, I love another kind of sauna. Saunas are like very big and Nordic cultures. Mm. You know, people just have in cold weather places. I gonna say sauna for self care.

Doree: So cold. Yeah. Yes.

Kate: Yeah. So look, if this is our first time talking about saunas, I welcome thoughts, feedback. Are you a sauna person? I also love a steam room, but that's not, you know what we're doing here. So anyway, that's how I'm taking care of myself as I turn 43.

Doree: Well, this is exciting. Kate. I love that you have this plan. It sounds very, very self care focused. And I like this for you.

Kate: There's also always the chance that I'll do it for two days and then be like, nevermind. But you know, as if you've followed along with this podcast, you know, that's kind of my vibe. So I appreciate you seeing me for who I am.

Doree: We see you. We all see you. Um, well, Kate, let's take a little break because when we come back, we have, we have a lot of things to get into.

Kate: Oh, we're talking about talking about other people and I'm very excited to dive into this conversation.

Doree: All right, we'll be right back.

Kate: So Doree, we had a listener who wrote in asking about how to compliment other people in term and especially using the phrase like you look great, and then you, or how I forget exactly what the original listener wrote to us. But it was that idea of like, do we compliment people on how they look is, are we not speaking about other people's bodies or appearances to them? Um, and you, and I kind of got into the question of like, do you say like, oh, you look great to someone. And we heard from a lot of people about this. So I will share this first email here they wrote hi cat door. I was thinking about the conversation about saying to a friend, you look great when you see them. And the context of the comment being about superficial appearances, similar to how it is not appropriate to comment. Have you lost weight question mark? One thing I like to say to a good friend or family member, particularly if I haven't seen them for a while is it's so good to see you. It speaks more to their visual presence, being such a delight to my senses. Just that I would share that love you both.

Doree: Oh, I like that.

Kate: So I love, it's good to see you. And I like to say it when I, somebody

Doree: I think this is a very LA thing,

Kate: Is it?

Doree: Yes. It's an LA thing because you're not like you're not supposed to admit that mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you're never supposed to say, it's nice to meet you because you might have already met that person in your mm-hmm <affirmative> multitudes of, you know, social events and it's, you know, it's gonna make things awkward. If you, uh, say that it's nice to meet you when you've already met them. And so I find that people in Los Angeles say, it's nice to see you. And you're like, I've never met you motherfucker, but

Kate: <laugh> I like it. I kind of like it in terms of, like, it kind of is like, I'm honor it. Like, it's nice to be in your presence. I don't know. I like it.

Doree: Oh, interesting

Kate: Greeting. I think of it more that way. But I do think it is, it is helpful in terms of like, just politeness, because that, that like feeling of, I have been on the other end of people, not remembering that we've met and me being like, Hey, and knowing their like full name and their life story. And it is very awkward for all involved. And I do not fault them. Yeah. It's very hard to remember people.

Doree: Yeah. Uh, you know, it's interesting, sorry. Now I'm getting us off on like a total side tangent, but like the thing that sometimes throws me about nice to see you and I have done it too, is like, sometimes if I have met someone and I legitimately don't remember meeting them and I say, it's nice to see you. That then implies that. I do remember how I met them. And then I can't ask, wait, where did I like, did we meet at so, so, and so's party? Or like, whatever, you know what I mean? Like, you can't establish with context because you've already been like so nice to see you. Like, fuck wait, I forget their name. You know what I mean?

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And, and do you think it's appropriate? Excuse me to ever say like, oh, where did we meet again? Or like, how do I know you? Or like, I'm sorry, I don't remember your name. You know, is it, do you ever feel, I'm trying to get more comfortable for example, if someone's like, Hey, Kate and I have, like, this happened to me recently where a person I knew recognized me. We were both in masks and I couldn't place them. And she was just said her name, but I feel like just being honest of like, I, I like, I'm sorry. I'm just not remembering how I know you. Or like, is there a way to politely say that without hurting somebody's feelings?

Doree: Um, I think there is, but then I also feel like you always hear people being like, I've met, like, like after the fact people being like, I've met this person five times, they never remember me. You know what I mean? So like, you don't wanna be on the other side of that. You don't wanna be the person who never remembers, like I, so it's very tricky. I, I don't know. I don't have the answer <laugh>

Kate: I don't either.

Doree: I just think, I think I do think that like, as sort of like eye Rollie, as I find it, I, I see the utility of it's nice to see you because it does in a very like Hollywood way. It does just like save face. There's nothing, Hollywood hates more than awkwardness and

Kate: <laugh>

Doree: So it's just like, I see how this is an elegant solution to this problem. Yeah.

Kate: And also if you're seeing somebody that you do recognize, and remember, I think saying it's so good to see you is such a genuine way to express. Totally. Yeah. I love, I love what the agree with that. Interesting. Do you wanna take this text message that we got

Doree: Kate? I would like nothing more.

Kate: You've been, Hey, chomping at the bit.

Doree: Hey cat. I had my pause. The pod moment with the you look great discussion. I'm a cancer patient and weight loss is such a tricky thing. I'm acutely aware. The folks around me could be experiencing weight change due to health things that they haven't shared. I'm in the habit of speaking to others about their emotional state. It's so lovely to see you. You look so calm or you look so content and happy. It opens up the conversation for them to share. If they'd like and helps me tune in emotionally, it's a practice for sure, but has been so worth it.

Kate: Excellent choices.

Doree: I like this.

Kate: I like this too. You look so happy is really now what if I said that to you? And you were actually like, actually I'm miserable. I guess it still opens up the conversation.

Doree: I think so. I think so.

Kate: Like, let's roleplay this for a second.

Doree: Okay. Okay. Who am I?

Kate: You're you?

Doree: I do. I like you, but am I do I, do I like look happy, but I'm sad inside. Or am I, you know what I mean? Which, which side of the conversation am I let's

Kate: Try that. Yeah. Let's try that and see how this, how we can, how I can then come around outta the awkwardness. Let's Doree. Hi. It's. Hi. How are you? You look so content and happy. Oh,

Doree: Wow. Kate. It's really weird to hear you say that because actually I'm not at all.

Kate: Am I depressed? So I'm so sorry to hear that. Do you want talk about what you're feeling? So this is hard. No, this is tricky.

Doree: Well, I think you probably wouldn't open with you. Look so content and happy here. Let's

Kate: Flip it. Mm. Okay.

Doree: Let's we'll we'll try it. Okay. Okay.

Kate: Okay, Kate.

Doree: Hey, how are you? It's been so long.

Kate: I'm doing okay.

Doree: Yeah. I mean, cause you, look, you look really content and happy.

Kate: Okay. So one way I could go be like, thank you so much. I am really happy. I am super successful in all aspects of my life. And I'm spiritually nurtured. Yeah. Great to see you Doree. Or it could be like, um, you know what, that's, it's funny you say that, cuz I'm actually have been really down. I've been going through some hard stuff with my family.

Doree: Oh gosh. I'm so sorry to hear that. That's okay. Thank you so much. It's fine. We'll we'll get through it. How have, how have you been, well, you know, I just want you to know that that I'm, I'm here for you. If you ever need to talk or, you know, whatever. I know we haven't, I know we haven't seen each other that much over the years, but yeah. We met that one time at that party. So that's really nice of you to offer. Yeah. Yeah, of course. You know, I just always got like a good vibe from you, so <laugh> okay. See, I like that. That works. Or we could just launch a podcast. What do you think? That'd great. You know what let's do that. Let's <laugh>, let's work together every day for the next four and a half years that, okay. See, I knew, I knew I liked you from the moment I'm so we were drunk together on that shabby couch in that apartment, in hell's kitchen.

Doree: And this all stemmed from you as telling me I looked content and happy. Yeah. Thank you, Doree. Wow. I've changed the course of both our lives. Okay. So that role play was, I would say kind of effective. Yes. I agree. I, I think, I mean it went off the rails, but how dare you? I'm sorry. No, your acting was actually very good. Oh, I thank you. Um, I think that what this just highlights is like, you can, you can kind of go whatever you can kind of go in whatever direction you want. Like if someone says you look content and what is, was it content and, uh, happy. Mm. Like you said, it's up to you. If you wanna kind of like open that door to a further conversation. Cause if you're like, actually I'm not, then that kind of implies that you wanna talk about it.

Doree: And if you don't feel like talking about it, then I think you can just like receive the compliment and be like, thank you. Yeah. That's a good point. So wow. Interesting. How communicate <laugh>. Well, the other thing though, like the other thing about these interactions is that small talk varies via culture, right? Or community yes. Or country. So the way you and I are used to small talking here in Los Angeles, California might be different down the road, but it might also, you know, it's be different in Korea. So it's totally, it's a little, it's confusing, these customs and traditions that we get ourselves to. Yeah. That's a, that's, that's a really good point also. Well, we have a voicemail to share. Um, why don't we, why don't we play that? Let's do that

Voicemail: Forever35 Long time, long time. Um, I'm upon about, um, commenting on how people look. Um, and I am someone who is in recovery for an eating disorder. Um, and my recovery body is a larger body than the body I had when I was really active in my eating disorder. Emphasize how important that is. I think that we don't comment on people's weight, even if that person is still in a space where they want be congratulated for losing weight. Um, because I know that those, um, those things were really great to hear when I was in a really ed place and still remember who used to tell me how great I looked, um, or how thin I looked and how wonderful that was. Um, and now it gives me anxiety about being around those people. Um, because I know that I'm not that thin anymore. And so I'm wondering, you know, what they're thinking of my body. Um, and they probably aren't thinking of my body, but that's how our brains work. Um, a go-to that I like to use is when I wanna, um, compliment my friends, like my close friends, um, is I say, um, gosh, you just really look like yourself. Like if I see someone and they do look genuinely like happy and energized, and whether that, like, I try not to attach a physical thing, it's like, oh gosh, love your, and those sorts of things. Even, even with something like that, I keep it really just, just because you never know what someone's going through. Um, and I feel like, um, Kate do who are both so good about considering that people are in different places or someone, someone might have lost weight because they're sick, um, or a variety of reasons. But, um, I think that complimenting people on the vibrancy with which they show up or like how happy they look, if they're having like a bright smiley day. Um, and for close friends, I love telling my close friends that they're beautiful because it's really about them as a whole person. Um, even if, you know, placing value around beauty in general is a bit complicated. Um, but anyway, thank you for all that you do. And for having these, um, conversations and for, um, in your personal life, not selling, not congratulating people when they lose weight. Um, anyway, thanks so much. Have a great day. Bye.

Kate: Thank you for this

Doree: Eating disorder. Yeah. The eating disorder stuff is, is really, um, important I think to keep in mind

Kate: And it's I find it so triggering mm-hmm <affirmative> when people comment on my body, um, most of the time I feel it's like older family members. I don't, it doesn't happen. I don't doesn't really happen. Although it does happen with peers, it's like, we've been so brainwashed and conditioned again, I don't fault anybody for doing it. It's like you were, it's just, you know, it's like a, the diet culture is a cult.

Doree: Yes.

Kate: That here's a question I'm to escape. Mm-hmm

Doree: <affirmative> what do you think about like when you meet up with a friend and they're wearing like a really amazing outfit, what do you, what do you think about being like I'm loving this whole vibe.

Kate: Yeah. I, I love complimenting somebody's look.

Doree: Yeah. Okay.

Kate: I just, they're all just be like, you're glowing. You're glowing. I mean, like, if I see you, I, I feel comfortable being like, I love your lipstick or like, are you wearing mm-hmm <affirmative> and I do this to you sometimes when we log into zoom because, or whatever this video program is Riverside, because sometimes, you know, one of us just happens to be glowing or we put a little extra makeup on and I feel safe, commenting, knowing you could say like, Nope, I've done nothing. I don't have makeup on. And I could say, oh, you know, sorry, if that was offensive you, I think, I think the scale of friendship is definitely important, but never comment on bodies. Although I did just tell you, I commented on your mascara. It's

Doree: All.

Kate: But I do think, I think complimenting an outfit is, you know, putting outfit together is, can be really like a way of self expression. You're commenting somebody's creativity in a way.

Doree: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: This is well, really.

Doree: I know we just another and all right, we are back and we have another voicemail.

Voicemail: Hi, Kat and Dor. I calling to pause the pod when you were about whether or not you say you great anymore to people or on their, I thought that a lot, especially since when I was pregnant a couple of years ago, I had a lot of people saying how great I looked and like small. I, uh, it just really, I think people thought they were giving me such a compliment and they were actually feeding into a lot of anxiety and it's not so good. So I thought about that. A and I think the key for me is the intimacy of the relationship. So I'm not gonna talk people who I know at all about how they look, unless I'm like, where did you get your shoes or something like that. But if it's a close friendship and you have the context for like, if this person struggles with, you know, disordered eating, I'm not gonna how their looks, but if I know they just, their hair done, I, how looks, I think that's really the key is how well, you know, the person. And can you talk about those kinds of things and get to know your own, um, in each other's insecurities and, um, and the things you feel more comfortable talking about. Cause we do have bodies and we can see them and we adorn them and we, you know, enjoying makeup and fashion and stuff, that, that stuff is fun. And I don't think we should feel like we can't talk about them, but I think it's important to just know who you're talking to. So I hope that makes sense. Um, love you guys. Bye

Doree: Context.

Kate: Great thoughts on this one, right?

Doree: Yeah. Context is important. One thing that I was one thing that I was thinking about as we were wrapping up our conversation before the break is like complimenting someone's clothes at work is a lot more fraught and complicated. Like if you're male boss compliments your dress, it's a little weird and awkward, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and like, mm-hmm, <affirmative> like, I don't know. So there's a difference between that and like you complimenting my dress

Kate: Very good point Doree. And I think also com um, commenting on pregnant bodies is a whole other realm of discussion. And also, you know, I'm, you know, just the comment of like, oh, you look this way, you look that way. Are you carrying this? Are you that like I've had, I've had friends have people say to them, like, you look like you're carrying twins. And then I like, I'm just carrying one child. They're like, well, that's gonna be a big baby. You know? Just

Doree: The yes.

Kate: Yes. Well, we've final message from a listener to share. Shall I read this please? OK.

Email: Hi, Kate Doree. I can't stop thinking about the question of whether or not we should compliment people on their appearance. I try to reserve my praise for friend's appearance when they look especially happy and healthy, or if they have a cool new piece of clothing, accessory, or haircut. I have a friend who texted me today, very excited about all the weight she's lost over the last couple of months of maternity leave, which I totally understand. I believe pre-baby, she was slightly, but not significantly overweight and wanted to lose 20 pounds. And now she's more than halfway there. I also know she's been having some medical issues that are making, eating more challenging. And I would imagine this is contributing to her weight loss. I have long worried that she could have a tendency toward losing weight through overly rigid calorie restriction. I've never confronted her about this, and I want to be happy that she's happy, but I am reluctant to cheer her on too much because I don't wanna encourage unhealthy behavior. I also hate the virtue we seem to assign to thinness and weight loss. Any advice on how to handle I've been in the position of being a bit overweight and also losing weight very quickly due to chronic illness. I'll never forget being complimented by an acquaintance for having worked my ass off. When I came home from college one summer, and I didn't have it in me to tell this woman that my weight loss was the result of a serious infection and months of health scares and hospitals, all other people saw was that I was thinner and I was praised for it's a real mind, especially if the implication is that when you're healthy, you don't look good. Just wanted to that perspective as well.

Kate: thank you.

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kate: Cause, sorry. It's interesting to think about how to navigate that conversation with the friend, right?

Doree: Yes.

Kate: You know, I think, I think you can say like, I'm happy that you're feeling good or like, I know this was, I know this was important to you, or I know this was something, you know, that you've been working on. I don't, you know, I think you can, if this is a close friend, you can certainly speak to them of just saying, you know, I care about you and I just wanna make sure that you feel, I don't know how you would position this question or statement, but I think it is worth having a conversation. But, um, yeah, it's really tricky when you don't want assign morality and virtue to, to weight loss, but other people want to be acknowledged for it, which I think is also their right. You know, I don't, I don't quite know how to navigate that. Do you have any thoughts?

Doree: It's really tricky. It's really tricky. Uh, I think, I think I would, I think now I would default to the, you look really happy

Kate: Mm.

Doree: That we kind of discussed before the break, because like, as this listener points out, this friend right now does seem really happy and excited that they've lost this weight. So they do seem happy. Um, and I think that, you know, that could be a way of, of it's kind of threading this needle <laugh> right. Like it's really tricky cuz it, you know, they say I don't wanna cheer her on too much and I hate the virtue we seem to assign to thinness and weight loss. And so it's like, oh, you seem really like, you seem really happy. I don't know. Is that condescending?

Kate: I honestly don't know. I, I, I, I, or you just say like, that's, that's great. Like I'm glad that you're, you're feeling good about that or like that's really exciting. I, you know, I think you can just kind of honor it without being like, I commend you for thinness and I, I don't, I know, I understand the feeling that any sort of validation of it is like, if you can feel like you're making this sweeping statement about, you know, your stance on fatphobia and all that stuff, you know, so yeah, I get that. I get that worry. Um, but I also would say like, you know, in terms of like her expressing her excitement, you can just say like, that's great and move on, you know? Hmm.

Doree: Hmm.

Kate: This has been a really interesting conversation about the way we talk to each other.

Doree: I agree. And I feel like I still don't have like all the answers.

Kate: No, I definitely don't. And I also know that I have had moments where I've clearly felt like I have said too much or the wrong thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, I, I tend to like over talk when I'm nervous. So in social situations, I tend to be the person who like can't stop talking as opposed to the person who won't talk, you know, that, that person

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Hmm

Kate: <laugh>

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kate: So I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, but it's, you know, it's interesting too to think about it because we are interacting in real life more and more. And so that kinda like exercising that muscle totally is really something. We are all hopefully doing a little bit

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative> well, thanks for having this conversation, Kate

Kate: I've really enjoyed it. I, I really appreciate all our listeners weighing in about this. And if you have more thoughts, you know,