Mini-Ep 288: Forest Baths and Life Paths
Kate gets some sample prods from her facialist and Doree gives what may be one of the last invisalign updates. Then, listeners send their questions and comments about parenting, bedscaping, and forest bathing.
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Transcript
Kate Spencer : Hello, welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree Shafrir: And I am Doree Shafrir
Kate Spencer : And we're not experts. Okay.
Doree Shafrir: That's true. But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate Spencer : We are, and this is so many episode where we hear from you. We share your comments and your thoughts. I mean, answer your questions to the best of our ability
Doree Shafrir: Indeed, but please remember we are podcast hosts, not experts, and we do always encourage you to seek support first and foremost, from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.
Kate Spencer : And if you would like to reach us, our voicemail number is 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9 0. You can also text us there. You can email us or send us a voice memo at forever 35 podcast@gmail.com
Doree Shafrir: Indeed. And please do remember that we have a website forever 35 podcast.com with links to everything we mentioned on the show. And you can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod on Instagram at forever 35 podcast. Join the forever 35 Facebook group the password there is serums and you can sign up for our newsletter At forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And we have a new issue going out this week. So check that out.
Kate Spencer : check it out. You know, Doree we received so many messages about your protest, really against big clock because You, Went on a bit of a rant about daylight, saving time, daylight savings time, and then
Doree Shafrir: Saving, saving time, saving.
Kate Spencer : daylight, Saving time.
Doree Shafrir: Yes.
Kate Spencer : I always think of it as daylight savings like savings in a bank.
Doree Shafrir: I Know. I know, but I've been corrected many times that it is daylight saving time. So here I am correcting you.
Kate Spencer : Well, our esteemed United States Senate couldn't get a COVID bill passed, but they made, they approved a bill to make daylight saving time. Oh my gosh. Way to go government and bureaucracy.
Doree Shafrir: Did anyone know this was coming? I did not know this was coming.
Kate Spencer : It Was so random. Like.
Doree Shafrir: it Felt so random. Yeah. I had heard nothing about this. Our conversation about this was not predicated on knowledge that this was happening.
Kate Spencer : No,
Doree Shafrir: No. Kate, I will say I posted about this on our Instagram, on Twitter, on the forever on my personal Instagram. And I did get a few messages from people who were like, I really don't want this to happen. I live in the Northeast. And if this happens, my kids will be walking to school in the dark.
Kate Spencer : Yeah. This is Anthony's anger about this. He was not happy about this decision. Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: I mean, look, it hasn't happened yet. It still has to pass the house and the house might not pass it.
Kate Spencer : And then Joe Biden has to write it into law. Like
Doree Shafrir: Joe Biden,
Kate Spencer : What is happening?
Doree Shafrir: I know. I know. But you know, so I, I hear that.
Kate Spencer : Yeah, I hear that. That would be annoying, but I do love how light it is now at night. So I'm kind of like,
Doree Shafrir: Hmm. Well, you know who doesn't love it. Young Henry.
Kate Spencer : Oh, well that's, it's hard when you're little.
Doree Shafrir: He's so confused. He's like, where is the dark?
Kate Spencer : Yeah. I mean, that is very confusing.
Doree Shafrir: Is it not dark? Yeah. Cuz he's used to going and he doesn't, I don't think he remember last March when we changed the clocks. You know what I mean? Like in his mind he goes to bed when it's dark out. Yeah. Yeah. So I get that. I mean, look, as I said on the last podcast, I, I just take Umbridge with the whole idea of changing clocks. I think that that is confusing and disorienting and I think we should just choose one and stick with it, whether it is standard time or saving time.
Kate Spencer : Well Look Dori. I'm just, I'm proud that, you know, clearly all the United States senators are listening to this podcast and they rushed, they rushed to make this legislation
Doree Shafrir: Cutting edge. Yes. We have a direct line to the United States, Senate.
Kate Spencer : Congratulations To you on, you know, just predicting this.
Doree Shafrir: Thank you Kate. Wait, I really, yeah. You know, I really feel like I was on the cutting edge here
Kate Spencer : You were. And we got so many messages about it. I was really chuckling yesterday because the text messages are coming in big news for Doree. The day after the pod aired on daylight savings time, a bill has passed to make it permanent important news for Doree regarding permanent daily. I mean I'm reading, these are texts. Doree has received numerous text messages. Thank you. We hear you. So many people sent a Roiters article. I mean, it just really was making me chuckle yesterday, so oh
Doree Shafrir: My goodness.
Kate Spencer : Oh, you know, can I mention a quick thing? AMA jig. I got a facial the other day and the facial, the facialist was wonderful. I'm going back. Um, but the facialist is a big fan of is clinical. Uh, line. I've never tried. That is very
Doree Shafrir: Interesting
Kate Spencer : Pricey.
Doree Shafrir: Okay.
Kate Spencer : And she gave me some samples to try out. So I'm very excited to try out some is clinical because she was raving about it.
Doree Shafrir: Ooh. Yeah. What are you gonna try from them?
Kate Spencer : She gave me, um, their active serum, their cleansing complex and then one of their eye creams to try.
Doree Shafrir: Ooh.
Kate Spencer : Okay. So I just wanted to throw that I'm excited. Any is clinical fans are in the, uh, audience. I'd love to hear your thoughts because I've always stared at that line, but never, never like, you know, thought it was possible for me, but maybe,
Doree Shafrir: But maybe it is,
Kate Spencer : Maybe it is anyway, Doree. I would love an Invisalign update from you because you have really been focusing on your teeth and, and I would love to hear how it's going. I also wanna report that my children tell me that if they get braces, they demand, they're getting Invisalign. And they also tell me that their kids, the kids at school who have it, don't take them out to eat lunch. So I need to know what's going on here.
Doree Shafrir: What?
Kate Spencer : Yeah, I was like Ellen, like my friend, really? Like my daughter's friend, I think has it. And I was like, well, are they always taking it out? And she was like, never. Now, maybe she doesn't notice. I have idea. I dunno.
Doree Shafrir: I honestly don't know how you could, like you can't really, you couldn't really chew if you had them in. Maybe they're just like drinking smoothies.
Kate Spencer : I, I don't. I mean, like I can't figure it out anyway. What is you?
Doree Shafrir: I mean, I personally would not want to eat with them in that seems very uncomfortable. And also seems like you would get a lot of stuff, like stuck in them. So that surprises me. Um, it's going very well. I just had an appointment with my orthodontist. Um, she I'm, I'm in like the last, like I think eight weeks of it, which is wild. It's been, it's been a year. Mm. Since I've been doing it, my teeth are almost straight. Can you See them?
Kate Spencer : Wait, hold on. Yeah, they are straight. I can see them. They're
Doree Shafrir: Just the, is straight
Kate Spencer : Doree is Sticking out her bottom teeth through a webcam, but it looked, they looked good.
Doree Shafrir: My bottom teeth were very crooked and they're almost straight now. There's like one tooth that's kind of stubborn. Um, and she is going to tweak the last few trays for me and I will have to go back, um, soon to get those. But yeah, it's been going really well. I mean, I, I recommend it. I do see people asking if they, if like their kids should get it. And like, I mean, I guess if like, if you, if you think your kid could handle it then sure. But it does seem like, like, I feel like I've almost lost them a few times and I don't know. It's like, it's a, it does seem like a lot of responsibility, but maybe, maybe kids are more responsible than I think
Kate Spencer : I can definitely report to you that, uh, according to my children, many people have Invisalign, many children and other children at School.
Doree Shafrir: Fasinating! Yeah. Wow. This is so interesting.
Kate Spencer : Also. many children just have regular old metal braces, but they seem, should know. They seem to be aware of Invisalign and we've never talked about it nor have they listened to this podcast. So I, so they're getting it from school. Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: You know, who has, who I see on social media has regular braces is Northwest.
Kate Spencer : Oh, she does. Yeah. Social media influencer, Northwest who I have to follow on TikTok. Yeah. She's real cute. I really like,
Doree Shafrir: she's very cute. And she has, she has, she has old school braces.
Kate Spencer : Oh, that's intriguing. Okay. I'm fascinated by that. Okay. All right. Maybe when we have Kim, Kardashian on the podcast? We can ask her about that.
Doree Shafrir: We can ask her. Yeah, sure. Um, well, well Kate, that is our Invisalign update. I will. I will be sure to report back once I'm fully done and um, yeah.
Kate Spencer : Well, Doree, let's toodaloot over to the ad break because when we get back, we're gonna hear from a couple of new parents. With some questions and some comments.
Doree Shafrir: All right. B R B.
Doree Shafrir: All right. We are back with a voicemail.
Speaker 3: Hi is a, uh, first time mom here. I'm about, uh, four months out. Um, and self care it's getting off work early on a Friday and not texting your husband or your babysitter so that you go to target by yourself and touch all the things. That's all love you guys. Bye.
Kate Spencer : Now I like this because it's not just going to target as self-care, it's not checking in. Yes, totally. Which truly is a form of a boundary setting. And I really admire that. I really admire that. Way to go listener.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. You know, um, kind of inspired by some conversations that we have been having, um, over on the, now we're talking discussion threads, which.
Kate Spencer : Doree newsletter Doree's newsletter.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. My newsletter, which you can find @ doree.substack.com. Um, I asked some questions on my Instagram about mom guilt. Like, do you feel guilty when you leave? When you're, when you like leave your children to kind of like do your own, you know, to do whatever.
Kate Spencer : I answered this question on your Instagram or in the newsletter. I said, fuck, no, I have to be honest. I don't. And I have left my kids to, to go do shit since they were babies.
Doree Shafrir: So, okay. I feel the same. Um, but I was actually, I was quite surprised by the number of people who said that they feel guilty. Um, yes, they feel guilty or they sometimes feel guilty. And then I asked for some, you know, elaboration on that and people had some really some really interesting thoughts. So, you know, I, I think that this is really great for this listener, um, to be doing this, you obviously have to do what is at your comfort level. But one thing that someone said who said they don't feel guilty, um, that I thought was like a really great point is that it's actually good to model for your kids. That like, yeah, you have your own life and you have your own interests and you do your own things and you have friends. Like it's a way of kind of modeling, being a grownup that I think is healthy.
Kate Spencer : I sometimes say that to my children when they're like, why are you, blah, blah, blah. And I'll be like, because I have this and I like to do this and I know you'll be fine. Like, I'll just straight up. Just tell now, I mean, now they're old enough to comprehend and have those conversations. Yeah. Um, but I, I have, you know, I've always felt comfortable with it. And then I've always felt kind of embarrassed that I didn't feel guilty because so many people have been like, I've never left my kid and I feel so guilty. And I'm like, does this mean I don't care? Or I don't care enough about my children? Like, what does it mean that I'm okay. Going away for a night when one of them is like five months old, but I, I don't know. I just felt okay about it. And I felt secure that, you know, obviously my spouse can handle it and, uh, yeah, but I think that's, but I think it's also the kind of thing where everybody needs space to decide what's comfortable for them. And no, a judgment free zone.
Doree Shafrir: Of course. Yeah.
Kate Spencer : That being said, touching all the things in target is the best. Ugh.
Doree Shafrir: So Fun.
Kate Spencer : You head over to that Magnolia home section for a little chip and Joanna Gaines.
Doree Shafrir: Uh, um, well Kate, we have another voicemail.
Kate Spencer : This is a very sweet message from a listener that really cheered me up.
Speaker 4: Hi cat and dor and the whole forever 35 family. My name's Jen, I'm from new Brunswick, Canada, and I'm turned 33 tomorrow. So I'm a new mom. I had a pandemic baby and I had a little window for a little childcare. So I thought, okay, today's my day. I'm just gonna go take a little me time because self care is looking and feeling a heck of a lot different in the stage of life. Um, so I wanted to tell you about my very glamorous little moment that I'm having, I'm sitting in my car in a parking lot, uh, listening to nothing because quiet kind of feels good, but I'm drinking this really awesome coffee. I'm reading this terrific book by a lady named Kate Spencer that, oh my God, it's like warm and cozy and just feels nice. Um, cuz it's winter here. And you know, I could use all the warm and cozy I can get.
Speaker 4: Anyway. I wanted to say thank you for this whole community and the podcast because having a pandemic baby has been isolating and kind of lonely. I mean, I've had some of the best moments of my life in the last few months. I love my daughter more than anything, but it's lonely. And having this community has really helped and it's given me a boost because it just feels like friends, you know, whether it's going on Facebook and joining in, or even just kinda lurking and looking at the comments and the, the posts, but also listening to the podcast. So I just wanted to say there's a lot going on in the world. That's heavy and hard and I wish it wasn't, but there's all kinds of good people out there too. And I'm thinking about this community and thinking about the people in my life and sending a lot of love to all of you. So, um, you a little moment, but I thought I'd say hi. Um, I hope everyone is okay. And like I said, I'm sending so much love. So have a great day. Cheers. Take a little moment. And just deep breath. Love you friends. Bye.
Doree Shafrir: Oh, she had such a wonderful Canadian accent now.
Kate Spencer : Doesn't that just make you feel good? Didn't that just kinda like warm your little heart a little bit.
Doree Shafrir: It did.
Kate Spencer : It was such A sweet message to this, the entire podcast community,
Doree Shafrir: So sweet.
Kate Spencer : And I appreciate that. They noted how lonely it can be being a new parent. Yeah. And it's been lonely in this pandemic for parents and for non-parents it's been just lonely period. I also love the feeling of sitting in your car with the quiet In a parking lot. I just love being in a parking lot, looking at my phone for like 30 minutes.
Doree Shafrir: Totally.
Kate Spencer : Do you do that?
Doree Shafrir: Oh yes, yes, yes.
Kate Spencer : Or My driveway or I just sit in my driveway.
Doree Shafrir: I was, I did that yesterday. I was just sitting in my driveway and then I feel like Matt was like, like what is happening?
Kate Spencer : Oh, always like eventually if my family's home, someone will like look out the window and I've just been out there for 45 minutes, but I love it.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah.
Kate Spencer : I love it. Yeah. All right. Well shifting gears a wee bit, we received this email question. Hello, lovely ladies. I'm sitting here in my bedroom office staring at my bed. As I do most days, I've tried over the past few years to try to upgrade our sleeping space, sheets, comfort or pillows, bed frame. We are incredibly fortunate to do this. However, I can never seem to get the bed to come together. I realize looking like a catalog might be a stretch, but I wondered if you or any listeners has any advice had any advice on bed scaping PS, my husband was a recipient of not one but two superlatives in high school and he won't stop talking about them. Every chance he gets it's been exactly 20 years. Lasi I wanna know what they are. I need to know what the superlatives are. What if it's like biggest hunk And like smartest brain? I would, I would hold onto those.
Doree Shafrir: Uh, um, so friend of the pod, Elizabeth Olson, uh, who was on the show, uh, two months ago or something she recently did over her bedroom and it was in domino magazine and we will link to it. She, I mean, she's a amazing genius and just,
Kate Spencer : oh, she's like Visual designer.
Doree Shafrir: She's, she's a Visual you. Yeah. But it might, you know, it might give you some ideas and Um, yeah. I like, I have been thinking lately that, you know, I've been in this like white bedding mode for like 10 years.
Kate Spencer : Okay.
Doree Shafrir: Okay. And I think I wanna like mix it up a little bit. I'm ready for something new.
Kate Spencer : I like a pattern. I will tell you how we do our bed. And I think our bed looks reasonably put together when we make it. Um, which I try to make it every day, even though, you know, the many pillows drives my husband nuts, but we have, um, a comforter and then, you know, our sleeping pillows. And then I have three, I guess, what would you call them? Like big shams that I lie. I think they're called shams. They're like big square pillows that I line up and I have different sets. Sometimes those match the, um, duvet or the quilt. And other times they're like the same color, but little different for some pattern. And then I have two throw pillows, um, that are in the similar color palette, but different like style, different print. So I think, I think there's like something that pulls it together and also, uh, stuff that kind of makes it Different I will tell you, I really do like, um, Serena and Lily for some of their bedding, although it's gotten a little kind of bland over the last couple of years, but it's a pricey bedding place. You could definitely get more affordable bedding, but I do have stuff from there that I really like. Um, and I do think like the three big pillows help because they hide the like frumpy sleep pillows. Like those are hard to make look nice. Yes. You gotta hide the frumple pillows.
Doree Shafrir: Yes.
Kate Spencer : So that's my tip. That's my tip. I think a nice bed set is key, but look, the most important thing is that it feels good to sleep in.
Doree Shafrir: Totally. Totally. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Kate Spencer : All right. Doree. It's uh, time for a break.
Doree Shafrir: All right. Let's take a break.
Doree Shafrir: All right. We are back With an email. Hi, Cat and Dor big fan here. I've been listening to the pod since literally episode one, and I listen to every single here for you too. Thank you for all that. You do kind of shy. So I haven't written in before, but ever since Kate started talking about the healing power of nature, I've been keeping my ears peeled for any mention of nature therapy and or forest bathing on the pod. And I got so excited when y'all does, when y'all discussed forest bathing with Megan O'Rourke because I've recently pivoted careers to become a certified forest bathing guide. Yes, it's a real thing. Of course. One can do forest bathing solo, but we guides are here for you to metaphorically quote, open the door to the healing power of nature therapy. If any of your listeners are interested in forest bathing, but are maybe not quite sure how to do it, or would prefer to wander out in nature with a trained and certified guide. They can head to nature and forest therapy.earth. And then there is a worldwide member map, um, and they can find a guide near them. And if they're located anywhere near New York city or Westchester or the lower Hudson valley hit me up at forestbaths.earth.
Kate Spencer : Well, hello, sweet shy listeners. Wow.
Doree Shafrir: Okay.
Kate Spencer : This sounds absolutely lovely. It really does. I am curious, like I actually am kind of interested in this because I'm, I would be curious as how, as to how like nature therapy or forest bathing differs from just like a walk in the woods.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah.
Kate Spencer : And it sounds like it's kind of like they're offering a guided meditation while you were in that outdoor space, but I'm very curious. Maybe I've gotta hit up a forest bathing therapist guide.
Doree Shafrir: I'm looking at this listener's website right now and she has private, virtually guided group walks.
Kate Spencer : Oh, that's interesting.
Doree Shafrir: So I'm intrigued,
Kate Spencer : Like we could, I wonder if she could do it, like we could walk in Los Angeles.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's what I think that's what happens.
Kate Spencer : That's really cool.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. So
Kate Spencer : Private family walks. Mm. I might, this might be a thing I get into,
Doree Shafrir: I I'm I'm down.
Kate Spencer : I mean, this just seems really lovely. Also just congrats on your career switch.
Doree Shafrir: Totally. Yes. Very exciting.
Kate Spencer : All right. Well, we're gonna end with one final email. Hi, Kate and Doree. I'm a listener to your podcast from India and keenly. Look forward to your episodes. Often. They are a companion to that monotonous task cooking. Thank you. I know I cook to so many podcasts. My question is I have numerous creative ideas that keep coming to my mind, say to start a podcast or newsletter as cetera, I am a writer too, but limit myself to pieces that I share with friends. I am not on social media. And every time an idea occurs, my first thought is that there are numerous people out on these platforms doing the same thing, and I will not be able to create a niche for myself. I get overwhelmed at this thought freeze and give up the idea. I was wondering if you could please counsel me on this. After I heard about Doree starting a newsletter on SubT stack, I thought how easily this is done by you and perhaps it's all a matter of confidence. Is it a matter of confidence Doree.
Doree Shafrir: Um, I mean, I'm sure confidence, confidence is definitely a part of it. Um, you know, I was just sort of having a similar conversation with, with a, a few friends about this. And we were marveling at people who, um, seemed to be able to just kind of like go into things.
Kate Spencer : Hmm.
Doree Shafrir: You know, and, and that, I mean, that does take, I think a certain level of confidence. And I think sometimes it almost takes like, Like an almost willful mm ignorance.
Kate Spencer : Mm.
Doree Shafrir: Of like your own perceived shortcomings, you know what I mean?
Kate Spencer : Yeah. Like you take real blind confidence.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. It's like blind con it's just like, they don't even think about that. They just kind of move forward and like it's a little bit of like a fake it till you make it sort of thing. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, I think what I hear a lot from people who want to write or, you know, do something creative is like, well, I feel like everything's been done. And I think that is like the biggest obstacle for a lot of people is feeling like they have nothing, to add. Yeah. And that I think is like the first thing to get over. Um, because you do have something to add, like you have not told your story, you know, this story yet you have not given your perspective or put your spin on something.
Kate Spencer : Definitely. I, you know, I just, um, did an event with, uh, Farah Haron who is a writer and she had a new book come, come out. That's really great. It's called Kamila knows best. And it's a retelling of Jane Austin's Emma and Emma has been retold many times, like, you know, clueless is a retelling of Emma, other books. Yeah. Other books and Farah's book is fantastic and so great and different from every other retelling of Emma. And it's totally, uh, worthy, uh, of being out in the world. And so I think, you know, like for example, I write romance tropes. There's so many tropes and romance. Every romance book has a trope. Like I didn't write the first, you know, like coworker romance to ever exist. I wrote probably the 1000000th. So you, you, I think you, you, everything is derivative. Like everything is inspired by something else. but None of it has your voice or your spin. And so that is what makes it, that is what makes it unique, your voice, your ex life experience, your perspective. Um, the other thing I wanted to say is that I saw a lot of myself in this comment where you have an idea and then your brain immediately takes you like way down the path and you get so worried about this thing that hasn't even happened yet. And may never happen that you freeze up. And I do this, I do this. And so I really, uh, empathize with you. And I would say like, I used to get an idea for a book and then I'd be like, well, I wonder what the cover, you know, like, what's it gonna be? Like when the book comes out, like, I hadn't written a word of this book idea, like, and I would get ahead of myself.
Kate Spencer : And I was like, everyone will hate it. And then I wouldn't do it. So when you have an idea, write the idea down. So it's in a permanent place and then let it sit and think on it and give yourself, like, I like to go for a walk. And I'll kind of think on the idea that I'm having give yourself room and space to let it breathe, and then just kind of slowly build on it, but letting your, without letting your, um, those kind of thoughts stop you, um, for the reasons that I think we've already mentioned, but just think about the, your creative work as small building blocks, not like one giant thing. And then another giant thing. You're just adding little by little, by little by little, and eventually it will build into something bigger. I don't know if I, I'm not sure. I totally articulate what I'm trying to say, but I don't know. Building blocks
Doree Shafrir: Building blocks. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Kate Spencer : Yeah. Maybe other people have ideas on that. Kind of like creative. What's What would be the word for it? Like the way we stop ourselves from trying something new, it doesn't even have to be a creative thing. It's like, I wanna learn how to play tennis. Uh it's like, and then you stop your, you know, might stop yourself for a variety of reasons. It can be anything. Yeah. Career changes, all, all sorts of stuff. What do we do? How do we, how do we nudge those voices aside?
Doree Shafrir: It's hard. I think it takes practice. I think it also takes failure And rejection.
Kate Spencer : boy Does it ever like
Doree Shafrir: Learning that like the world doesn't end, if you fail or you get rejected and like how you respond to that failure or rejection is kind of what separates. I think the people who end up, you know, doing the thing from the people who don't, because it's not like the people who do the thing never got rejected or never failed. Right. Like everyone has failed. Everyone has been rejected. Um, so it's, but we only see the successes. I think that's, it's
Kate Spencer : The, that's it,
Doree Shafrir: That's the thing. Like, you know, we only see the successes and when you only see the successes, I think it's, it's easy to assume that no one else has been rejected or no one else has failed. I mean, this is why, like, when I got the, the news about my paperback not being published, I was like, I need to just like, talk about this because I want people to know that, like this sucks and I'm really bummed about it. And like, yeah, this is, you know, this is something that happens. So just because I like, you know, got a newsletter out doesn't mean that I didn't just have something that made me feel like shit. You know what I mean?
Kate Spencer : I do. I mean, you know, I wrote a memoir, it's a published book and that's like very cool to see. And that's the thing that people see. But let me tell you how many people rejected that book before someone wanted to buy it? Let me, I mean that, it was one after the other, after the other, just, you know, I liked it, but I don't, I don't see, like, how would we position this? Like just, just like nice feedback, but like, and perfectly fine. Like they had reasons to reject it.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah.
Kate Spencer : But you know, all like that, that is not, our failures are never, um, really kind of shown alongside our successes. I really love a Elizabeth Gilbert's book, big magic. I just think it's such a fantastic book on creativity and I highly recommend it for anybody to read or maybe to listen to the audio book. I just think it's, it's like a real pep talk. It'll get you. It'll get you feeling good. And I think excited about create and also accepting of failure. Well, Doree, this has been fun.
Doree Shafrir: It has been. Always great to see you, Kate.
Kate Spencer : It's lovely to see you listeners. It's lovely to see you too, through your words and your voices. We thank you for participating in this podcast with us.
Doree Shafrir: All right, everyone, adios.