Episode 308: Behind The Competition with Shima Oliaee
Doree and Elise chat about free mugging, coffee drinking, and cute clothes. Then, they invite award-winning journalist and podcast producer Shima Oliaee (Dolly Parton’s America) on the show to talk about her latest show The Competition, about the complicated quasi-pageant “The Distinguished Young Women” program; getting delightfully scammed by a Sephora employee; and what it was like to watch the Dobbs decision come down among girls.
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Transcript
Doree: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise: And I'm Elise Hu. And we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums and other things
Doree: And other things, but also serums. So we're going to kind of check in with each other before we introduce our guests, but I wanted to just start Elise by reading a text that we got.
Elise: Okay.
Doree: Okay. This is what this person wrote. I'm loving Elise as the new summer cohost, but
Elise: There's a but. Oh no,
Doree: But I have a request slash note. It would be great to have more aimless banter and general catching up between co-hosts before jumping to listen questions or interviews. We're still getting to know Elise and hearing her casually chat with Doree is the greatest way for us to get to know her better. What is her favorite morning routine? Is she a coffee person? Does she free mug? Inquiring minds? Must know. The more we know her, the more we'll love her, the more we'll keep coming back for what we all crave. A good chat between friends. Thank you for this podcast.
Elise: Love that. And thank you for that text.
Doree: The gauntlet has been thrown, Elise.
Elise: Yeah, That was a lot of questions. That was a whole series of questions, and I know free mugging can be a really contentious topic here at Forever35.
Doree: Yep.
Elise: You are a no free mugger, right?
Doree: I'm a no free mugger because I don't trust myself to free mug.
Elise: I rarely free mug is the answer to the question because I am such a clutz that I have dislocated my shoulder just from standing on top of a hill. I accidentally slid down the hill and then my shoulder fell out. It fell out of it
Doree: That sounds really painful.
Elise: Oh, it was really bad. It was like blinding pain. And so that's how klutzy I am, which means when I do bring something unlided into my car or around just anywhere traveling, it's likely to spill. The times that I free mug are when I cannot find the right lids to my travel mugs, which happens because you end up with such a collection of these things over the years that the lids and the lids are all so specific. So sometimes I rush out the door and I must confess that I do occasionally free mug due to my lack of organization, but I generally do not due to my lack of grace.
Doree: Okay. How do you feel about free plating or free bowling?
Elise: I free bowl occasionally. Yeah.
Doree: Do you really?
Elise: Yep. Alright. You got me.
Doree: What do you free bowl.
Elise: You know those pretzel, like those peanut butter or pretzel nuggets from Trader Joe's?
Doree: Oh yeah.
Elise: Yes, those.
Doree: Okay. That to me doesn't feel so out there because it's a snack and if you spilled it, it would be annoying, but not a full-on mess and you're not in danger of being burned by a hot liquid. I was stopped at a light once and I swear the woman in the car next to me was eating a bowl of cereal.
Elise: Oh, see? No, no, no, no liquids in a free bowl.
Doree: I was like wow
Elise: No, no, no, no, no. Or even spaghetti. I wouldn't put a bowl of pasta, ramen, anything like that in a free bowl.
Doree: Yes. I understand. Sometimes people, you're in a rush, you're running out the door, you don't have time to eat. You want to bring it in the car, but I feel like that's what granola bars are for.
Elise: Yeah. I feel like free bowling liquids, hot liquids is really living on the edge.
Doree: I've also seen someone eating a plate of rice again. I mean, I don't judge. I'm just
Elise: Right. And our cars, our sanctuaries, righters are our sanctuaries
Doree: In a moving car.
Elise: I'm not going to yuck anyones yum,
Doree: But that's the thing. It's not if you're parked and you're eating a plate of rice, I'm like, okay, that seems a little messy, but you're parked. But no, this person was driving.
Elise: That's just a recipe for disaster in my world,
Doree: Literally. So the other questions, what is your favorite morning routine, Elise?
Elise: I like to be as unburdened as possible in the morning, and so when I can, well, you know this story, I showed up to coffee, I met up with Doree yesterday and I showed up and I still had pillow line creases on my cheek.
Doree: I didn't notice that. I just noticed your cute overalls.
Elise: I did brush my teeth. I usually brush my teeth and wash my face
Doree: You know what's funny, Elise, I actually didn't brush my teeth yesterday. I forgot.
Elise: So you did my favorite morning routine.
Doree: I was like, Ooh, I hope I don't get close enough to Elise where she's like, Ooh, morning breath.
Elise: I couldn't tell no few undetectable.
Doree: I usually do brush my teeth like 99% of the time.
Elise: That's my main one. Oh, slap on sunscreen. Sunscreen. Before you leave the house,
Doree: Are you a coffee person? We kind of just answered that, but
Elise: I am, I will meet for coffee. I will meet for coffee. Social smokers. I'm a social coffee drinker. I don't make coffee in the morning for myself. I drink iced green tea.
Doree: Oh, see, I didn't know that.
Elise: I'm a green tea person. I'm a big iced tea person.
Doree: Okay. Do you have a particular iced tea that is a favorite besides, you said green, but do you have a brand or,
Elise: yeah, I used to drink a lot of honest tea because it was just a tad sweet and then some big beverage company bought it and then discontinued it. But the original, I have discovered that the original founder of Honest Tea has now started another tea line called Just Ice Tea. Not iced, but just Ice ICE just, and it's in bottle glass bottles and you can buy it at Whole Foods. I think I buy it online and it is also just a tad sweet.
Doree: So it's funny because it's like the name of the beverage is Iced tea, and so when you say ice tea, it makes me think that is a name. The ice is not acting as an adjective there or it is, but it's like, do you know what I mean?
Elise: Yeah. It becomes a verb. It's
Doree: Milk tea, it ice or tea instead of milky tea. It's like milk tea, which is a thing. And so this is just like ice tea.
Elise: This is sort of like in Hawaii where it's shave ice, not shaved ice
Doree: Oh yes, exactly. That's a perfect comparison
Elise: And it kind of bothers me, but that's what it's called.
Doree: Right? Okay. I have a question for you, which is you appear to be wearing a puffy jacket.
Elise: Yes. Something that happens in our casual chats, which are available on the Patreon. Doree likes to make comments about what I'm wearing.
Doree: They're not, it's not comments, it's questions. It's questions on the casual chat. Elise was in workout gear and so I was like, did you just work out? It's a legitimate question.
Elise: It was. You're just a curious person
Doree: It was a cute workout top.
Elise: Yeah, you're curious.
Doree: I'm a curious person. We're in Los Angeles, it's in the seventies and Elise is wearing a puffy jacket and I just wanted some clarity.
Elise: I turned my AC up too high and I hadn't adjusted it back down yet.
Doree: See, There's a story. Yep. Okay, there you go. So you're waiting for your AC to regulate is what you're saying.
Elise: I hope this is the aimless banter that the listener wanted because boy is it aimless.
Doree: It's a nice shade. It's like a purpleish gray.
Elise: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks very much.
Doree: It has a hood. What is that? What is that jacket? Elise, where's it from?
Elise: It's a hood. This is Uniqlo. This is Uniqlo. And then I was going to say it'll pack down to the size of a little.
Doree: Yep. Love a Uniqlo.
Elise: Very lightweight.
Doree: All well the listener. I don't think they had any more specific questions.
Elise: Alright, and Doree's always here to ask the question, what are you wearing?
Doree: Tell me about what you're wearing, Elise.
Elise: Now I'm getting warm. I'm getting warm in the hot seat.
Doree: Yeah. I am a coffee drinker and I'm drinking my scheduled second coffee of the morning. Well I guess it's now the afternoon, but it is an iced one of the Lalo triple lattes that I pour over ice.
Elise: Oh, I love Lalo. Those cans.
Doree: Yeah, the cans,
Elise: Yeah, because in the fall they have pumpkin flavored, very lightly sweet pumpkin, pumpkin flavored lalo. So I get in the fall spirit
Doree: With those. I don't love, I don't
Elise: All the pumpkin spice stuff.
Doree: I'll have to try it. I'll have to try it. I'm reserving judgment. I shouldn't say that. I don't like it, but it's
Elise: Usually not your jam.
Doree: It's usually not my jam, but I'm open to it. I'm open to it. The founder of Lalo is also obsessed with saving orangutans. Did you know this?
Elise: I had no idea any of this backstory.
Doree: I'm here to enlighten you.
Elise: This is all new to me.
Doree: Yeah, I think he has a nonprofit devoted to saving orangutans. This has been going on for years. That's great. Yeah. The more you know. Well listen, it was fun bantering with you and like Elise said, we do this for kind of a full mini episode length time every week on the Patreon we are still doing the casual chats, so if you enjoy just this kind of banter, I suggest checking out the Patreon. You can do a seven day free trial and listen and see how you feel. We're also going to be doing monthly pop culture and book roundups
Elise: Cannot wait.
Doree: Recommendation Roundups. And you also get ad free episodes at the $10 tier. So there's a lot happening on the Patreon. That's at patreon.com/forever35. Alright, Elise, do you want to introduce our guest
Elise: This week, we have Shima OIiaee on the show. She is a first generation American born and raised in Nevada, and you will know of her work because she's the co-creator of the nine part series. Dolly Parton's America. Remember that from during Covid?
Doree: Oh yeah.
Elise: It received several national awards including a Peabody and an Edward r Murrow among others after she studied music and cinema at uscs Thornton School of Music. She received her graduate degree in psychology, worked as a teacher, translated for the un, volunteered to raise young women revolutionaries and worked in comedy TV including the Golden Globe winning Brooklyn nine nine. This is all before she returned to her first love of audio. Shima reported Radio Lab's, a sexual consent series in the Know that's No. She also produced and reported the Stitcher mini series on Erased a history of conversion therapy in America, which KQ Eed News called the Best podcast of 2018. Now she is back with an engrossing series on the most promising young women in America called the Competition.
Doree: Before we go to Shima, I just want to remind everyone, our website is Forever35podcast.com. We have links to everything we mentioned on the show. We'll probably link to Elise's jacket. I mean why not?
Elise: You don't get to see it, so why don't we just sell it to you?
Doree: Exactly. You can follow us on Instagram at Forever35 podcast. Again, our Patreon is at patreon.com/forever35. We have our favorite products at Shopmy.us/forever35. You can sign up for a newsletter at forever35podcast.com/newsletter and you can call or text us at eight one five nine one zero three nine zero. Just put us in your phone so when you think of something you want to tell us, you can just say Call Forever35 and our email is Forever35Podcast@gmail.com. Okay, now we're going to take a break and we welcome Shima to Forever35. We're so happy to have you.
Shima: I'm so excited to be here.
Doree: We both really enjoyed your podcast, the competition, and we are so excited to talk to you all about it. But first, we do like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So is there something that you are doing right now that you would consider a self-care?
Shima: I have a couple. They're quick, but one is, I live in New York is to, I don't know if this is a very New York thing, but I love going to an empty theater and watching a film at a random time of day. Usually ditching work at some point or even getting out late out of work on a Friday night and just going to a film that no one's watching. Love that. Another thing is if this is just something that I think has a little bit more meaning. If there's a time when you're really going through something hard at a job or in a relationship or with your religion or whatever it is, I will start listening to music I listen to before that thing ever existed in my life.
Elise: Oh,
Doree: I Love that.
Shima: And that has really helped me get through some hard moments is I go to that. I just start listening to the music. Before that thing ever came in, I knew it was real To me it so it relieves you mentally from whatever it is you're facing because you go to the self that didn't even care or didn't know and was not connected to any of it. I dunno. That was something that I kind of discovered as I became an adult.
Doree: That's so smart.
Shima: I had a mentor in comedy who I was really going through it and I called her and she's like, listen to that. She's the one who told me, she's like, just listen to any music you listen to before you were here, before you had to deal with this bullshit. Anyway, great. That's so smart. I dunno if she did it somewhere. Yeah, I think she went through something or she had to do the same thing.
Elise: Okay. All right.
Shima: We're going to save that obviously, and I think listeners are going to really like it too. Alright, I'm so excited to talk about Distinguished Young Women, which is the competition that your show, the competition is centered around. I hadn't actually heard of this scholarship competition before and it has kind of pageant roots, so can you just set it up and describe what distinguished young women is?
Yes. So it's kind of the first teen pageant that doesn't call itself a pageant and it started in Mobile, Alabama, a group of do-gooders that were all men put on a festival slash carnival called the Azalea Trail Made Carnival and they would have high school girls be Azalea Trail MAs, and then they would give scholarships to these high school girls. And then that slowly morphed into the thing that was launched in 1958, which was called America's Junior Miss, which kind of occurred because girls from outside of Alabama were trying to be part of this trail made festival. Long story short, it starts 1958, 1963, Diane Sawyer wins and the scholarship competition just spreads from there. There's more and more participants each year. The numbers that you can win get larger. It kind of became a microcosm of whatever was happening in Girl World that year. So the fashions that you were expected to where on stage the fitness portion of the competition usually reflected what was going on for fitness in America for women, and I think it started, it always had five categories. So one was the judge's interview. I was a judge in 2022 when the competition takes place. So it was like me and the girls for 10 minutes, we can ask any question imaginable and they have to answer and the cutoff is at 10 minutes and it's the first thing that happens in the competition. Then there's the onstage categories, that self-expression, which is answering a spontaneous question on stage. You have 30 seconds to answer. That's very much like what we think of as Miss America or Miss USA today. And there's also the fitness portion of the competition, which is doing an actual fitness routine on stage and we go through the comedy of what happens in each era of this competition and what else is there? There is talent where you have 90 seconds to perform a talent on stage and then there is scholastics, which happens before you even get there. It's a calculation of all of your academic honors and achievements, which is 25% of your score. So it's kind of like a nerdy pageant. It's like a,
Doree: there's no swimsuit,
Elise: there's no evening gown.
Shima: There's no swimsuit. Yeah. So this is also part of the evolution is there were gowns at one point. So 1958 when that woman named Phyllis won, she wore a gown, she got a crown. There have been no crowns for decades. I got a medal when I won and I did have to wear a gown my year.
Elise: So we should point out that, I don't know if we said it in the intro. So Shima actually participated in distinguished young women, not only coming back in 2022 as a judge, but also in 2001 You represented your home state, right?
Shima: Yes, and I didn't know what I was entering. I basically found it in a book called How to Go To College for Free, which was a bunch of nerdy scholarships to pay your way to school. The guy who wrote the book went to Harvard, majored in journalism and I was like, he seems kind of boring now. I'm a journalist anyway, so I think I didn't quite know what to expect, but I did need to pay for school because my parents were not going to pay for school and I wanted to study art, which they definitely did not want me to study, so I was willing to do anything. So I showed up at this Nevada competition, which the local programs are very different from the national competition because the national competition is so connected to Mobile Alabama and it's huge there. This one, I actually had to do things and I was going to probably lose. I think I knew that going in
Elise: It is so intense,
Shima: So intense. It's very, and some girls are really prepared and some not. Some states are really advanced and some are not. But yeah, it's probably the hardest, one of the hardest things I did academically, something that I did that was an organizational thing as a teenager. What's funny is I hadn't thought about the program for 20 years and when my podcast Dolly Partons America came out, the program had made a Facebook post about me saying this is one of our alumni. She just won a Peabody and I didn't even know the name had changed because they keep trying to modernize this program. They promote themselves as if they are a different standard. I think that is somewhat true, but there's still very pageanty like aspects of it. Obviously they asked me to be a judge and it was someone different who asked me to be a judge, the executive director at the time, and that's when I said, Hey, I thought it would be a really great idea to record what happens there. And they said yes, which was very surprising.
Elise: Wow, that's how you got the access too. That's awesome.
Shima: That is how I got the access. So I was both a judge and producer of the show and I sent two women down there and even a local third woman I found from Oak Mobile to record everything that happened. It's 50 girls and I couldn't know anything about them before we got there. It was really like Gonzo journalism slash reality tv, but without a plan. To me, the competition part was the least interesting part of the show. I really wanted to know what was going on with teen girls at this time. Don't you guys wonder as millennial women, when you watch the Gen Z generation come up dealing with school shootings, we just had, Columbine was this big shock to us, but they have drills about what to do with the shooter. It's so normalized how they are dealing with teen hood. It was fascinating to me from an outsider's perspective and I really wanted to know what it was really like.
Doree: This was something that I had never heard of. How did people find out about this? Who was it targeted to? You said Diane Sawyer did it in the sixties, but what about now and what about when you did it? How did that kind of come about?
Shima: Every day there's at least three or four news reports on the competition, but we just don't see it on a national level. So it'sa very localized experience again, which is why it's a great snapshot of America. It's kind of a secret. It's not the same. I think they really tried to protect it from the outside world. That's why it was crazy that they allowed me to do a podcast about it because it's not a Miss America, it's not a Miss USA, but
Elise: You still win one only $50,000. So we should point, I realized that we didn't point out how much money was at stake. So if you do win the distinguished young women title, you take home at least $40,000, but then there's more things here and there that I remember. The winner ends up getting nearly 50, right?
Shima: Yes. My year I could have walked away with a hundred K at nationals.
Elise: Wow.
Shima: It used to be huge, I think especially when were on tv. And so my year we were on tv, which is way worse because you do all these embarrassing things on the stage, especially the fitness routine is very embarrassing, which I go in. Glad you brought detail.
Elise: I'm glad that because I had our producer save a clip. Actually we are playing no clips except for this one clip because the fitness routine is so bananas Doree, do we have it?
Doree: Yes, we do.
Video: I'm very discouraged. Lemme walk you through the routine. At first, the girls are just all on the floor stretching and isn't enough, but then they hop up for jumps and squats, pop back down for planks with shoulder touches, and then they're back up again for a series of jumping rope, jumping jacks and super speedy running in place. Football feet. That's followed by Warrior one a standing split squats, the tree pose and a leg lift. That's just the beginning. After that, they do a combination of burpees, pushups, leg lifts, a plank where they lift one arm high to the sky, then flip into a V-shaped boat pose that's sprinkled with sit-ups and scissor kicks. They top that off with lunges and more squats. And then you have your solo, So the individual section, each person has to go out in front and do about a 22nd thing, but in the background you're constantly doing squats. You're going to be doing hundreds of squats before you even get to your own individual
Doree: Who, boy, yeah,
Elise: That's the biggest part.
Shima: It was worse. It was worse my day. It's still bad. It's so bad. Yeah.
Elise: Well, this gets to my next question, which is how do you feel like the competition has changed since 2001 when you did it? Because as you mentioned, it's kind of a snapshot of girlhood and young womanhood.
Shima: I would say the girls who enter are a little bit different maybe because student loans are the biggest nightmare for, and they're very aware of the predatory nature of student loans. So there's a desperation that maybe I didn't feel in my era. I personally needed the money because of my parents very upset that I wanted to do my own thing in college. But I think you get a much more diverse community. One is because I think since it's not on tv, it does feel more like a scholarship competition slash versus a pageant. And so I feel like it's less scary for girls who don't want to dress up and don't want to stand on stage and answer a question, but probably have to have makeup on because they are on a stage, which is one of the girls in the show. She's from Maryland, Genevieve, she talks about how I walk a man talk like a man, and she puts on makeup for the first time at her state competition, but it's worth it to her because she has to find a way to pay for school. Her other option was to join the military. That kind of person was not there my year, not that I know of. I think it's much more diverse. I think it was mostly white girls. My year I was Middle Eastern America. I talk a little bit about that in the show. I was Middle Eastern American and yeah, it was weird. It was the first time, it was the most east coast I'd ever been and the furthest east coast I'd ever been coming from Reno, Nevada. And also I'd never been in the south. I think the diversity of the girls is better and Scholastics matters more now, and so does the judges interview. So it's become more academics. Before my year, scholastics and judges interview counted for less and I was a nerd. I won the Scholastics award my year, so
Doree: amazing. Congrat.
Shima: I won the one thing that the judges had nothing to do with.
Doree: Amazing.
Elise: Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree: So what are your big picture takeaways from doing the show and being so immersed in the world of distinguished young women? Do you have any big takeaways about girlhood, about adolescence? Just kind of curious.
Shima: So in the fifth episode,
Elise: we were going to bring this up if you weren't going to bring it up.
Shima: Yeah, okay. Before, let me do baby set before we get there. Okay. So girls talk about race. These are other things that were different from my year. Girls are talking about race at the competition. There are moments that we don't share in the show, but everyone was talking about race at moments on a bus ride from this location to that location between rehearsals. They were talking about sexuality in corners. People were talking about boys in a way that we never felt safe talking about that while we were there. We were such good girls, we were very disciplined, quiet. We were just following the orders in a way that these girls were more willing to break the rules, though they're still very self-disciplined young women. And so that was interesting to me. That was a little bit shocking. And then in episode, that was actually really encouraging and I think one of the girls, Colorado, who decides to use her talent to talk about race, she talks about George Floyd's murder and all of that, the Black Lives Matter movement happening while she's in high school. And that made her very adamant about speaking about race. Her mother, who is white also participated in America's Junior miss in the nineties. And one talent,
Elise: The people who have participated are called, has Beens, which is hilarious. I guess that's on purpose.
Shima: I didn't even know I was called Has been. Yeah, I didn't know that was a thing until I came back as a judge and then they called me. A has been, and I was very offended. A has been at 19
Elise: So offensive.
Shima: Yeah, yeah. Youre a has been at 19, as soon as you pass on the title, you're done. Yeah. So race and sexuality, the way girls were talking about it, but also the ways that some things are still so much like they were in 2001. The fact that California couldn't just come out and say like, Hey, I'm queer, that she did feel a little bit nervous about saying that. That was interesting to me. The fact that Colorado did use her talent to talk about race, that was actually really great to see. That was an evolution from when I was there in the fifth episode, the takeaway. So in the fifth episode, unbeknownst to all of us who are there, this is almost the end of week two, which the girls are away from home for two weeks to compete against each other. We get this news, I get the news from my phone, but they get the news,
Elise: They don't have their phones
Shima: And they dont, they get the news through a secret code about some major news breaking and yes, the reason is they are not allowed to have phones while they are at the competition. And so a group of the conservative girls had created a secret code about Roe v. Wade so that if the news did break and if the Supreme Court had issued its stops decision, they would know even though they weren't allowed to have their phones. So someone called in about someone being sick with cancer and that was actually a code.
Doree: Oh wow. Yeah.
Shima: That was code for whether she was sick or she had healed from cancer. That relayed the message of whether the Dobbs decision had been in favor of Roe or had overturned Roe. And the girls have no idea that this is a code. Two of the girls
Elise: who are from the conservative states
Shima: who are from the conservative
Elise: Kansas and Montana.
Shima: Yeah. Yes. So Kansas gets the call. She's the one who gets the call from outside talking about Jennifer who has recovered from cancer, which is good news. She tells Montana, Montana and her are crying because they are so overjoyed and happy and all the other girls, they're in the middle of rehearsal is wild practicing a dance to time of my life, which is supposed to be the closing numbers. So it's also a movie from a movie with an abortion story. Quite ironic. So they hear these girls crying, they see 'em crying, they're like, what is going on? And then word spreads that someone has overcome cancer. So they're so excited. And then when the conservative girls start telling the other conservative girls that actually it's that Roe v. V Wade has been overturned, that news starts to slowly spread. And so it is very, the way that everyone finds out is very upsetting, especially for the people who are not happy with the news and someone who is a former winner, 2018 distinguished young woman of America. She gets up, she's there supporting that day. She thinks everyone knows. And she says, if anyone wants to talk to me, I am here. If you are upset by the news. And half of the girls go, what? News? News? They dunno. And then the entire room erupts and there's a parting of the sea. So half the girls, the conservative girls are on one side talking about it, and the girls that are the liberal girls are on the other side, very upset. And then there's some girls in the middle who don't know what to think. One of the most poignant moments in the show is Tennessee goes, why are people crying? Is someone pregnant? She didn't understand why people would be upset if they weren't pregnant. And most of her friends are pro-life. We interview her later. But yeah, she is learning about it in time.
Elise: She educating herself about it. She learns about it in real time. I really like her. I really liked Amy.
Shima: I love Tennessee. I love all of them. I know they have very different political views than me, but we really did respect. It's a great all of the girls. Yeah,
Elise: Yeah.
Shima: You were going to say about Tennessee.
Elise: I just really liked her a lot. I was a little stunned that some of these girls did a lot of speech and debate, for example. And then they have to be so prepared to talk about these ethical, moral, current events, questions in their interview section with the judges. I know that I would completely wilt under the pressure if I had to go before these judges with the questions that they're presented with real. You have to make some real leaps and connections and be quite agile in your thinking. And so I was a little surprised that there were girls who kind of didn't understand the stakes of abortion, but then you forget how young they are. And because they are so poised,
Shima: I love when they start talking about how old the Supreme Court judges are and how they can't get fired and how it's like it doesn't make sense to them. Like, wait, you can be bad at your job and not get fired because they're good girls. They're all like working middle class girls. They think you have to follow the rules and then if you do well, you will advance. And then they're like, wait, these dudes can't, they just get to stay there until they die. That was fun. That was fun too to hear that.
Elise: Actually, you raise a really important theme of the show that I wanted to ask you about because what we hear consistently is this idea of achievement culture and meritocracy and doing good job and that your mattering is tied to your doing a good job and being able to perform and this extreme pressure on all of these young women to achieve for money. So in a capitalistic system, obviously we have to pay for things. Talk us through your thinking on not only the, you wrestle a little bit with pageants and how women get objectified and obviously this is only a quasi pageant, but they're still being looked at. But also the achievement culture of all of this, the way that the girls have internalized this notion that if you do a good job, you can be successful.
Shima: So going back to the question that I was supposed to be answering about, what were the main takeaways? So from that abortion scene or the overturning of Roe v. Wade? Yeah. So my two main takeaways, which I did not understand going in, which connect to your question Elise, is these are girls that they need money. So you start to learn how to navigate rules and systems very young in the educational system in America, you do certain things, you become class president, you do certain things, you get an A, you do certain things, you make a club, you have a resume, you know that no one's going to get you into school, you know, can't rely on Uncle Steven Spielberg giving you a job. These are girls that need to figure it out on their own for the most part. And so what that does is it creates a certain kind of self-discipline that each of them has put on themselves. And the fitness routine in episode two is a great example of shut up and do the routine. And if you complain about the routine, maybe it's because you're not the best. If you were the best, you could just touch your toes. You could jump up and touch your toes like a cheerleader. That's how I felt in 2001 when I was there. Oh, why would I complain about this? There are girls touching their toes, jumping up, and to them, that's fitness. I was a swimmer. There was nothing to do. We didn't get to swim. I would've beaten everyone in swimming, I think, but maybe not. Maybe I would've been taught five, I don't know. But I think that discipline carries on into womanhood. And I thought about the moments in my working life as a grown woman where I was really fucked over or treated very badly. And I think I was an easy target because I always take responsibility. I'm going to outwork everyone. I will work the long hours. I will not ask for extra pay. I will be quiet. I will know when to be quiet, when to speak up. And you get your work stolen from you in that way. You get a pat on the head, you advance in a certain way, but you don't advance in the way that you really dream or wish to. And I realized, oh, my self-discipline made me an easy target to take advantage of. And I think that happens to a lot of women and that I did not understand until I was writing the show. And I don't quite get there in episode four, I allude to it, but I try not to take over the show from the girls. It really is about them. I'm really there as a ghost of Christmas future being like some bad things might happen, like beware. But I don't want to also say I for sure know bad things will happen. It was such a hard line to walk, honestly. If I could have just done it all myself, it would've been much darker. The whole shoe would've been much darker. But I don't want to discourage girls. I want to give them some hope. So that was the first big takeaway. The second big takeaway that stemmed from that scene about the code and Roe v. Wade was I was shocked, stupidly shocked. I wish I wasn't this naive at how split the girls were about the decision. I thought all the women would be upset. I mean maybe one or two for whatever personal religious reasons. I get it. But I was shocked at how divided that room was. Even knowing that probably most of them or talked didn't have a friend who had had an abortion. Maybe some had but probably most hadn't. Or if they did, they didn't know about it. Or if they had had one, they weren't going to talk about it. So that was shocking to me. And I was just thinking about what we think about pageants. It's all about women talking about world peace and getting on a stage, talking about world peace. And I really wanted to say, wow, if all of us could just unite if those 50 girls could unite around something or if all the random women who have been in this competition, there's almost a million of us out there. If we could unite about one simple thing, we could do world peace, maybe we could nuclear weapons. What a fourth. As soon as I started to go there, because I was thinking about ending the show like that, we could all abolish nuclear weapons, we could do world peace, but I'm like, I don't know if all these girls want to abolish nuclear weapons, that's what I want to do. And that was shocking. That was so upsetting to me and oh my god, it made me so sad as a woman. I'm like, this is why we don't have rights. We don't have enough rights or power. We don't all agree that we should have
Doree: One last question, which is that Shima you were wearing with the perfect red lipstick and I must know, must know what it is
Shima: I went to Sephora and I just said, I need a red lipstick. And I think that the girl working there, she got a bonus if she sold me Christian Dior that day. Yeah. I found out later Anyway, I had another friend who worked there. She's like, oh yeah, there was a thing that if you did it this week, blah, blah. Anyway, so I got scammed, but it was a good scam. So it was, it's from Sephora, Christian Dior, and it's just Rouge Rouge Dior. You can't see this.
Doree: It's such a perfect red. This is it. So you might've been scared, but she was maybe onto something.
Shima: She helped me. She help me out. Helped me it
Elise: it works out in your favor.
Doree: Yes, exactly.
Shima: Mutual benefits.
Doree: Where can our listeners find you and listen to your work?
Shima: I have all the social media handles. It's just my first name and my last name. It's a lot of vows, so get ready. It's Shima as in Hiroshima, the second half. So S-H-I-M-A. My last name is O-L-I-A-E-E. So it's Shima Oliaee. I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, everything. TikTok though, I really post on TikTok, but I love TikTok. I especially love book talk. Another great self-Care.
Doree: Yes
Shima: Thing. I love book talk. I love people talking about books. I think it's maybe the Reading Rainbow thing. Yeah. And the show, you can probably find the show through any of those handles, but it's just the competition. Shima, if you look up, if you just Google the competition Shima, you'll find it on any app. It's really good. I know I gave a bit away here, but it's such a great surprising ride. I think you'll get stuff that I didn't share here in the podcast. It is the closest thing I think that you can get to what it is like to be a teen girl today. You get to basically be on a ride with teen girls and hear about their lives, what it was like for them coming up. The cast is very diverse. We have one of the youngest winners of a Republican primary from Montana. She is there. We have a young woman whose mother crossed the border twice when she was pregnant, and she is also a great dancer and activist from New Mexico. She's there. We have also the actual winner who I will not give away is there a couple presidential hopefuls. Someone who I think will be on Broadway one day, Colorado. All of these, the cast is just incredible. The women who share their lives are so fascinating and they do give you a capsule of what has happened in America the last couple of years, what it was like to live all of these traumatic events, the pandemic school shootings being on social media as a kid, what it is like to apply for school at this time. What is stress, what is bullying? What is it like to be sexualized as a teen today? They share all of that in the show. It's really great for parents, but also great for anyone who's reminiscing about what it was like for us as millennial teens too. It brings up a lot. You start realizing things about yourself from listening to the other girls.
Elise: It's such a great listen. Yes,
Shima: Yes.
Elise: And again, you can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts, the competition. Shima Oliaee, thank you so much.
Doree: Thanks so much Shima.
Shima: Thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it.
Doree: Wow, that was fascinating. Not going to lie.
Elise: I was nowhere close to being a distinguished young woman. I'm glad I never had heard of that.
Doree: Me neither.
Elise: Those girls were crazy accomplished by the time they were 17 or 18 years old. I know. And the pressure is just,
Doree: The pressure is a lot. Yeah, totally. Elise, let's intention it up.
Elise: Yeah, I was going to say I wanted to see or give an update because last week did you have an intention?
Doree: I did. I had a midlife crisis intention.
Elise: That's right. Did you figure it out? Is everything solved?
Doree: Everything is solved. It's okay.
Elise: It only takes a week.
Doree: I wouldn't say everything is solved. I am coping by channeling a lot of my energy into captaining, a summer tennis team and recruiting people to be on the team and setting up the team and getting everything set for the team. And I'm really spending a lot of time on that.
Elise: How many people do you need for a team?
Doree: Every season in USTA recreational tennis, the team configurations are slightly different. So one season and it'll be just doubles, then it'll be like 40 and over singles and doubles, then it'll be mixed. There's a lot of different ways that you can form a team anyway. For summer, there are mixed doubles teams, but I'm not doing a mixed doubles team. And this is what's called a tri-level team. So you need players from three different USTA ratings to be on the team. And then every match
Elise: And ratings go from what one to five? Is it one to five?
Doree: Basically like 2.5 to five is, and I'm a two five, so I'm on the lowest rung. And our try level team is 2 5, 3 0.0 and three five. So you need players from each of those ratings and then every match to players from each rating play a doubles match against another team.
Elise: Fascinating.
Doree: I'm a two five. I've been on two five teams. I know a lot of two fives. That was no problem. I also sometimes play on a three oh team if they need a sub or whatever. And so I know a lot of three os, the three fives, I was like, I don't know any three fives, three five, you're getting pretty good
Elise: I think about this,
Doree: but I did finally find a couple people and so we had a scramble to get the team set up because the deadline was yesterday and blah blah blah.
Elise: But this is a way to channel your energy and make you feel like you have something to focus on. You have control over it. It's not just like midlife spinning out of control.
Doree: Exactly. It's really, it's like, you know how when you look at the Enneagram descriptions and it's like this is the good expression of your Enneagram number and then this is when it goes bad for me. It's like when it goes bad, it's like Donald Trump because he's an eight apparently. But then when it's good you're channeling your need for control and setting things up for good. And so I feel like this is my way of doing that in a way that feels productive and fulfilling and also takes my mind off of a lot of other things that I'd rather not think about right now.
Elise: This is good.
Doree: So that is actually my intention for this week is getting all the tennis stuff kind of sorted.
Elise: Awesome.
Doree: Thank you.
Elise: Alright, we'll check back in on it next week.
Doree: How about you?
Elise: My intention was about vitamins.
Doree: Yes,
Elise: it was regarding the 400 pack of vitamins.
Doree: Yes. How was that going
Elise: That I bought? I think I made it four out of seven days. So good thing I'm not on the pill kind of birth control because I am clearly not great at taking daily medication. I have an IUD, which I don't have to think about. Even my intention even being really intentional about it last week and saying, I'm going to do this every day. Didn't get me to do it every single day, but most days I was able to and then my mom helpfully reminded me, Enneagram seven, everybody.
Doree: Enneagram seven. What about this week?
Elise: That's a good question. This week I have a lot of reading to do.
Doree: Oh, okay.
Elise: So I'm going to read at least two books this week and I want you to hold me to it. They're extremely readable. One we're reading for a guest for a show coming up. And then the other, a friend of mine who has become a very well-known literary translator who translates Korean literature into English, has now come out with his own English language novel. It's his debut novel and I can't wait to read it.
Doree: Oh, how Cool.
Elise: Toward Eternity. Yeah. So I'm going to read Toward Eternity by Anton Hur this week. So that will be my intention just to sit down and enjoy fictional worlds.
Doree: Do you like to read on paper or e-reader kind of thing?
Elise: Both. It just depends on when I'm traveling a lot. And then when I'm in cities with public transportation, I usually am on an e-reader and it's my most prized possession. I think I've kept mine as a Kindle God. I've had mine for 12 years or something, the same one and it's really beaten up, but I love it. Then a lot of times we'll get galleys, the Advanced reader copies in physical books and so I'll just leave those by my nightstand and I'll read them. So these two books I'm reading this week, I am reading hard copies.
Doree: Nice.
Elise: What about you? What do you prefer?
Doree: I mostly read on the Kindle app on my iPad. I have had actual Kindles in the past and they've all broken or died in some way, so I don't know. You seem to take better care of your Kindles than I do, so I read on the Kindle app, but I also do try to read on paper sometimes because I do think that my focus is better on paper.
Elise: I love dog earring and I like highlighting. I have these crayon highlighters that I really enjoy. They're so smooth the way they go on the page. So that's what I like with reading hard copies.
Doree: Gotcha.
Elise: But yeah, so reading will be mine and tennis will be yours and we will check back in on them.
Doree: Sounds Good.
Elise: Next time.
Doree: Alright, well thanks everyone. And just a reminder that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone.
Elise: Thanks y'all.