Kate’s got a new novel coming out in June (pre-order One Last Summer now!), and Doree’s donning her doctor hat to uncover another medical mystery. Then, Dear Prudence advice columnist Jenée Desmond-Harris joins the pod to answer listener questions and discuss the delicate nuance of giving advice, the joy of laying on the floor in front of a space heater, and a mind-blowingingly good (and cheap!) foundation.

Mentioned in this Episode

• Forever35 X Balance Bound collaboration

• Milk frother

• Phoera Soft Matte Longwear Liquid Foundation

• Connect with Jenee

  • Jenée Desmond-Harris (@jdesmondharris) • Instagram photos and videos

  • Jenée Desmond-Harris - The New York Times

  • Jenée (@jdesmondharris) / X 

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Transcript

Kate:                    Hello friends. Welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer,

Doree:                And I am Doree Shafrir.

Kate:                    And we are not experts.

Doree:                We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate:                    I am drinking a homemade turmeric latte right now.

Doree:                Okay. Kate.

Kate:                    I feel like that is the most cliched thing I could be doing.

Doree:                Do you have a milk frother?

Kate:                    I do. I have a little picture thing that I bought off of amazon.com.

Doree:                Heard of it.

Kate:                    That's just a small independent shop and it froth is either steams or froth is milk. And then I also got, I have one of those mixer things that people use to put in milk, but I like them because it mixes up. I'll put the boiling water in and I do this with matcha too. And then I use that to kind of really mix the turmeric and cinnamon and vanilla and maple syrup all in at the bottom before I get the milk going. And it is delicious.

Doree:                Wow. Kate. Okay.

Kate:                    This is my afternoon. I don't know, pick me up. It's also, I'm really cold and so it's warming my hands. This is just a nice little self-care drink that I'm enjoying right now.

Doree:                I love this for you. Wait, have we, sorry, and then we can get into another topic, but have we discussed on this podcast my diagnosis of Matt that reminded me of my butter, cholesterol diagnosis of you?

Kate:                    Excuse me. No. Does Matt also have a food, one condiment that he eats like a food?

Doree:                No, but this is what happened. So for weeks, Matt had been like, I am sleeping terribly. I can't fall asleep at night. My mind is racing. I'm waking up. It's horrible. And he snores and it's never been a great sleeper, but this was kind of next level. And then we were having dinner,

Kate:                    Can't wait to hear where this is going to go.

Doree:                So we have dinner with Henry, so we have early dinner. It's like five 30 and he cracks open a can of diet and Mountain Dew.

Kate:                    No, no.

Doree:                I was like

Kate:                    Say this is the person who is eating butter with high cholesterol, but no,

Doree:                And I was like, excuse me, What are you doing? He's like, I'm having a drink. I'm like, you're having a Mountain Dew at 5:30. Setting aside to me the grossness of Mountain Dew in general, that is, he's a grown man. He can make his own decisions when it comes to,

Kate:                    that's correct.

Doree:                His soda consumption. But I was like, lemme get this straight. You've been complaining about not being able to sleep and you're planning on just drinking Old Mountain Dew at 5:30. He's like, well, it doesn't have as much caffeine as Diet Coke. And I was like, I don't think that's true. And I googled it and I was like, that is not true. It has more. And he was like, oh. He's like, I, I've been having Mountain Dew at midnight sometimes.

Kate:                    What?

Doree:                And I'm like, Matt, did it ever occur to you that perhaps some of your sleep issues could be due to the fact that you're drinking caffeine so late? He was like, oh, I've never really thought about it.

Kate:                    Sometimes we're the last to know when we're doing the thing, we are the last to figure it out. It seems so obvious from the outside, but sometimes it's just not obvious when you're the one doing it.

Doree:                Yeah, totally.

Kate:                    Doree, Have I ever told you how I went to the college psychologist about my anxiety in college, and this was before I was officially diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder, but I went and I was like, I am a fucking mess. My heart's racing all the time. I feel like I'm having panic attacks. And this is not to say that I wasn't also having those things, but I was exacerbating them because I was drinking about three cups of coke at every meal. So I was drinking just so much soda from about 8 or 9:00 AM till 7:00 PM all day long. Not really, really understanding what the way caffeine, maybe also sugar, but definitely caffeine was making my, it was increasing all of the symptoms of anxiety for me and making it my sleep was awful. Just like Matt is dealing with all of it, all of it. And sometimes you just don't put two and two together even when you are a perfectly intelligent person

Doree:                No, of course. Yeah. But it just reminded me of the old I eat butter like candy bars and my cholesterol is high. It's so weird conversation that we had a while ago.

Kate:                    Oh, I still think about how it took you a minute to understand that what I was saying is that I physically eat hunks of butter.

Doree:                Yes. I did not fully understand that at first, but then I understood it and then I was like,

Kate:                    now you do.

Doree:                Before you change your entire diet and your family's diet, maybe cut out the butter.

Kate:                    And you know what? I have significantly decreased how much butter I eat, just like plain eat. I still cook with butter and all that stuff and my cholesterol has gone down.

Doree:                Great. I'm happy to hear that.

Kate:                    So you earned that medical degree.

Doree:                Thank you so much, Kate.

Kate:                    And you do for your husband as well. Did he stop, was this just last night that you had this revelation or has he cut since cut back on the Mountain Dew?

Doree:                He has since cut back on the Mountain Dew. He was like, oh, well it started because I was drinking Sprite zero and for a while all the stores were out of Sprite. Zero. So he had switched to Mountain Dew even though they're completely different sodas

Kate:                    because Sprite does not have caffeine to

Doree:                No, Sprite has no caffeine and neither does ginger ale, which is something he also used to drink. So he had switched from two sodas that have zero caffeine to one of the most caffeinated sodas you can drink

Kate:                    Because Mountain Dews like borderline and energy drink, right?

Doree:                Yes. So I was like, okay, no caffeine. After 3:00 PM I was like, ideally two, but I'll accept three. And again, Matt is a grown man. I try not to say you need to do this or blah, blah blah, but I was like, no

Kate:                    Good.

Doree:                Just it was really affecting him and he was complaining about it all the time. And so I was like, alright, here's what we're going to do, Matt.

Kate:                    Good job. Dr. Doree,

Doree:                Thank you so much.

Kate:                    Breaking news. I am drinking out of a mug at my desk and I did just spill speaking of things, Doree's right about,

Doree:                Oh no,

Kate:                    Not bad. Not a bad spill, but I just had a little dribble of my latte, my turmeric latte. I'll clean it up in a little bit.

Doree:                Okay.

Kate:                    First I did want to share my new book news because I have a new book coming out and you can pre-order it.

Doree:                Yes. Let's hear about this. Kate

Kate:                    Doree. I have written another book. It is as the description says, laugh out loud summer romance that asks, what do you do when the life you've planned isn't what you've dreamed? And I'm very excited to share. The name of the book is called One Last Summer. It will be out June 11th. You can pre-order it anywhere you get books. You can request your library carry it, you can post about it on social media. I have shared the cover in my personal newsletter and on my Instagram and this book has taken up a huge chunk of my life for the last few years and it is scary but also exciting for it to come out into the world. And it is a summer romance set at a sleepaway camp in New Hampshire between two frenemies childhood nemes who yes, fall in love,

Doree:                Beautiful, and enemies to lover's story.

Kate:                    Listen, it is if you want people flirting in a lake, I have got you covered. If you want sex in an outdoor shower, I've got you covered.

Doree:                Wow, Okay.

Kate:                    This is a steamier book than what my last book.

Doree:                Okay, I'm ready for this Kate.

Kate:                    This is a little bit steamier, yeah, it's a little steamier if you want ridiculous sleepaway camp antics like food fights. Capture the flag if you want friendship, if you want drama, I've got it. I've got it for you. If you want someone dealing with burnout,

Doree:                that's beautiful, Kate.

Kate:                    The anxiety that comes along with being an adult dealing with burnout, this book is for you. Any hoots. I'm very excited about it. June 11th, 2024. Yes, I will be doing some sort of fun signed pre-order thing personalized, so if you would like a signed copy where I will write whatever you want inside of it, stay tuned. I will have that information coming at some point and I will love to personalize it with any Forever35 joke or any comment you want me to make within reason. As long as it's respectful, I will do it. But you know what? Listeners of this podcast have been so supportive of our book projects and I'm very grateful for everyone who has read books we've written and supported us on our author journeys. So thank you in advance for your support of this new book, one last summer.

Doree:                Amazing. Now, Kate, we should introduce our guest.

Kate:                    This is someone who, you know what, I'm going to be real honest. I want to be an IRL friend with, I want to be your IRL friend, Jenee Desmond Harrises. Just be on the lookout for me.

Doree:                Yeah, we're just going to show up in San Francisco.

Kate:                    Just be like, knock, knock.

Doree:                Yep. We're here.

Kate:                    We're here to make this real. Our guest today is Jenee Desmond Harris. Jenee is a slate, staff, writer and editor. She writes the dear prudence advice column. She's an incredibly thoughtful advice giver. She's also previously worked at the New York Times vox.com and the Root and look, if you want advice on giving advice, she has the best advice on that and other things.

Doree:                Seriously.

Kate:                    She's like brimming with wisdom,

Doree:                Brimming,

Kate:                    Brimming. And she at the end of our conversation, hooks us up with a life-changing foundation that we've never heard of and it costs $5. So you're going to want to stick around.

Doree:                Before we get to our chat with Jenee, let me just remind everyone that on our website Forever35podcast.com, we always have links to everything we mentioned on the show including this $5 foundation. We're also on Instagram @Forever35podcast. We have a Patreon, which you can join at patreon.com/forever35 where we do a casual chat episode that runs weekly. We are recapping theOC, we do product recall over there. There's all kinds of fun bonus content and we also have a Discord where Kate and I both participate. It's very fun. So join us over there at patreon.com/forever35. It's just $5 a month. You can also shop our favorite products at shopmy.us/forever35. We have a newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter and please call or text us at (781) 591-0390. Email us at forever35podcast@gmai.com and here is Jenee

Kate:                    Jenee. Welcome to Forever35. We're so glad to have you here. It was a real privilege for us to get to be your guests, your helpers on Dear Prudence.

Jenee:                 You two are wonderful.

Kate:                    Well, we're very excited to have you now on Forever35 so that we can pick your brain and learn all about your life and mind you, for the best advice ever given because that is your profession and you are excellent at it.

Jenee:                 No pressure.

Kate:                    No pressure, yes. Not just set you up here

Doree:                No pressure whatsoever.

Kate:                    We're just so thrilled to have you here and we love to kick things off asking every guest about a self-care practice in their life that can truly be anything as long as it resonates with you as self-care. So I would love to know if you have something that right now is serving as self-care for you.

Jenee:                 I do. I've been thinking about this because I've been listening to this podcast since the beginning, and every time I hear you ask a guest this question, I think, what would my answer be this week? So I thought about it all weekend and can I have two?

Doree:                Of course.

Jenee:                 Okay. I have a really super practical one and then a weird random one for the practical one. I took a week off from work to do nothing but the stuff I never get to that bothers me. So I didn't tell anyone I was off, so nobody tried to intrude on my time and I did the kind of things that you always think you should be able to do really quick on a Sunday or in a few minutes in your workday that you just never get to. Whether it's bringing the donations to Goodwill organization, things around the house, and for me it meant making all my doctor's appointments. Mind you, not going to the doctor but simply picking up the phone or going to the online portal and making the appointments and it's really paid off. I've felt so much calmer afterwards since all of these things are not hanging over my head and having the actual doctor's appointments has been incredible. Self-care for me. Long story short, it led to me being diagnosed with ADHD medicated that improved my life. That also explains why I was unable to get to this stuff, but that's a whole nother conversation. Got my mammogram out of the way. I know I'm fine. I know my gums are okay. It's just led to a lot of peace for me. So no, I didn't go on a big fun vacation, but that week just really made my life better

Kate:                    I think. And I want to hear your second one too, but that action that empties the mental load so much, it is you are giving yourself a vacation in a way, or it then allows for you to have a brain vacation when you get back to work almost

Jenee:                 Exactly, because those things aren't weighing on you every day. So definitely recommend that if you have the time and you can do it. My second super random one is lying down in front of a space heater. Stretching is optional. Now, I think you two will understand this because it's sort of suited for a California winter climate where you may not be fully heating your house all the time, but there may just be a little chill that's a little bit uncomfortable and you're just like, oh, I'm a bit chilly. Turn on the space heater, lie down in front of it. To me it's a shortcut to the feeling I used to get at the end of a yoga class where you're just lying down on my back right now. Feels so good.

Doree:                It kind of makes me think of why people liked tanning beds.

Jenee:                 Yes, Totally.

Kate:                    Yes Doree. That is why I liked tanning beds when I went to college in Maine.

Doree:                You were lying down.

Kate:                    So cold down,

Doree:                there's the heat. I mean, yes, there's the light too, but the heat, something about lying down in heat feels so cozy and nice.

Jenee:                 It feels fantastic. And I'm currently not a person who exercises at this moment in my life, so I'm not going to the yoga class, but I found a way to get that great warm, luxurious feeling that's super calming, relaxing.

Doree:                I love this.

Jenee:                 Turn on your space heater and lie down.

Kate:                    I love this. Our heat is broken in our house right now, which again, it's southern California. It's not like a crisis, but it is much colder and I am very excited to blast a space heater and curl up. I love blasting it under my desk, but now the thought of lying next to it, it just sounds really nice.

Jenee:                 Now I'll say it can get uncomfortably hot, so you just need to adjust it at times, but I trust you to do that.

Kate:                    I also wanted to just note something that I think we never talk about a lot because I often feel like making doctor's appointments is something that gets listed as a self-care practice. It takes time to get doctor's appointments scheduled. I actually have that on my list today, and it's not just like you call and it's done, it is chasing it down phone tag, finding the time, the paperwork, it's a pain in the butt.

Jenee:                 They always call you back at the worst moment and you have to answer the random number that you would never answer and then say yes or no to a certain date when you're not looking at your calendar. Yeah, it's a huge job. Maybe not for some people. I'm sure some people find it really easy, but for me it just always felt like a massive hassle.

Kate:                    How has your ADD diagnosis or have you found it clarifying in terms of how you get through life or how you feel about yourself or just did it kind of illuminate or change anything for you?

Jenee:                 How much time do you have? This is truly its own episode and I've been down the rabbit hole and I relate so much to so many women and in particular newish moms who have been diagnosed. I thought that I just had a horrible, horrible case of mom brain deepened by having had postpartum preeclampsia, which can end up having lasting cognitive effects. But I was just really going through it, having trouble remembering things, having trouble sort of prioritizing things. Let's just say my personality was becoming feeling overwhelmed. That was just me overwhelmed all the time. So that's what inspired me to actually get some help. But now looking back at my life, I always did do well in school and didn't struggle at work, but I'm now realizing that took 100% of my time. So I've never been someone who does work hard, play hard. I was always someone who worked kind of hard constantly. I always needed to take all weekend to study. I didn't do extracurriculars in college because I needed all my time to get my focus together and do my work. I've always worked weekends, not because I'm doing more than everyone else, but because that's what it took to stay on top of everything. The most surprising side effect, positive side effect for me has been that being medicated has decreased what I guess I thought was a bit of social anxiety. For example, I really did not enjoy hanging out with my toddler and other mom friends. I found that just was really overwhelming, stressful. My attention was being pulled in so many different directions. I was like, why do people like this? I can't stay in the conversation. I feel like I'm not taking care of him, that I seem discombobulated and now that I've dealt with my attention issues, that anxiety has gone away.

Doree:                That's so Interesting.

Jenee:                 I can just kind of, I guess, be present and not be so stressed about where my brain is going and how that's coming off.

Doree:                Wow.

Jenee:                 Yeah.

Kate:                    Thank you for sharing that. Selfishly, I'd just like to hear about other people's experiences, but it's really clarifying because it manifests for people in such different ways, and I don't think I would've ever thought about the connection to the social experience if that makes,

Jenee:                 I wouldn't have either.

Kate:                    It makes so much sense.

Jenee:                 Yeah, I mean, I just thought, okay, I need to treat this because I need to get things done, and that's part of it. I feel calmer and more able to get things done because again, my brain isn't going in a million directions. But yeah, there's also been these unexpected results too, and I'm happy to talk about it because I suspected this might be an issue for four or five years. I just hearing so many other women discuss it in forums like this and on social media, and I think it took that for me to say, well, there's nothing wrong with it and maybe it could be me too.

Doree:                Wow. Let's talk about your life as the slate advice columnist, dear Prudence, which you've been doing now for two and a half years.

Jenee:                 Yep.

Doree:                Okay. I mean, I have so many questions about this, but I guess my first question is, as you think about the range of questions that have come across your desk, your proverbial desk in the last two and a half years, are there specific topics or even specific questions that come up again and again?

Jenee:                 Yes. This one will be so familiar to you two. One of the drums I'm always beating in response to questions is that if you are an adult who is having trouble making friends and maintaining friendships, you're not alone. Because I get so many letters from people who are dealing with that issue and worse than just dealing with it, they're feeling a lot of shame around it. It's almost as if everyone who has moved to a new city and needs friends or has lost touch with their group of friends or who is having trouble maintaining a friendship as people enter new stages of life, it's almost as if every one of those people thinks they're the only one. And I know from looking at what comes across my proverbial desk that it's so common. So I find myself constantly just trying to normalize that for people. The solutions are a little harder. I don't think there are easy ones. I've told people to go on Bumble BFF, I've spoken to people who've written entire books about this. I think the easiest to implement and smallest piece of advice I have on that topic is to use social media and use your network and explicitly ask. I think one of the best uses of your Facebook or Instagram is if you feel brave enough to just say, I'm in this city. I need some new friends. Here's what I like to do. Does anyone know anyone? People love to give advice and people love to be helpful in that way. So I really encourage people to simply ask. I've seen our mutual podcast media friend, Jasmine Gilroy, do some French and matchmaking on her Instagram that was super successful.

Doree:                Oh wow. That's really cool.

Jenee:                 People got to say where they were and what they were looking for, and people would respond in the comments. So to me, that's just a really inspiring use of technology that I know can often have the opposite effect of making people feel inadequate and alone.

Doree:                I love that. And yes, we have gotten a lot of questions about adult friendships and I don't know if you talked to Lane Moore, but she did. She wrote a whole book about this, about how your normal, if it's hard for you to make friends.

Jenee:                 Yeah. Another thing I'm always saying about it is when it comes to maintaining friendships and being sad about friendships changing is I really try to encourage people not to hold out college 20 something friendship where everyone's together, everyone's free, everyone's single, everyone's at the bar, it's every weekend as sort of the ideal of friendship and then looking at everything else as subpar or an inadequate form of friendship. I really want people to start to think that friendships do change as you get older, as people partner up, have kids lose parents go through mental health struggles, but it doesn't mean that they are not as good. In fact, I think when I look at some of my most meaningful memories with my friends over the past decade, it's been through when one of us is going through a really hard time. I think simply showing up for someone going over to their house when they lose a parent, climbing in bed with them, distracting them after a breakup, going over to do the laundry when they have a baby. Those aren't some new, sad, less exciting version of friendship. To me. It can be even a more exciting and evolved version of friendship if people would learn to look at it that way.

Kate:                    Such a great perspective.

Doree:                That is very profound and very true. Do you get follow-ups from readers slash listeners about your advice?

Jenee:                 Once in a while? I treasure the emails that say, that was really good advice. Thank you. I've gotten about four of them in two years. I get a larger handful of You were wrong. You didn't get it. Everyone was unfair to me. And of course I get feedback from people who were not the letters writers or subjects of the letters just showing me that they would have approached it differently.

Doree:                Okay. Yes. Do you look back on any letters and think, Ooh, I actually kind of fucked that one up.

Jenee:                 Oh yeah. Doree, you might relate to this one. So people were all over me about this, and I think they were right. I had a letter from, I might get the facts a little messed up, but I'll give you the general theme. A dad whose daughter had been going through IVF and infertility unsuccessfully and wanted financial support from the family and was really, really mad at everyone for not giving it and was being an asshole basically about it. And my response as someone who's dealt with infertility, sorry, I listened to excellent adventure. My first reaction, and this is just where my, I mean my bias comes into all my answers, but it came in really strong on this one. I was like, you need to go easy on her. You need to leave her alone. You dunno what she's dealing with. Infertility is so hard. People think that getting treatment for infertility is exciting, getting a baby through science, but I experienced it as very sad and scary because the reality was that it might not work. So it was a long period of mourning. It was actually quite depressing. So I really felt for this woman and I could just see why she was lashing out and I just wanted her family too, if they didn't give her the money, at least to just let her get away with being a jerk because she was going through such a tough time.

Doree:                And the letter was from her dad?

Jenee:                 I think it was her dad. Yeah.

Doree:                Okay. Got it.

Jenee:                 And everyone wrote back and said in the comments, you don't get to act like that. You don't get to demand money from people, you don't get to treat people like this. Sorry for what she's going through, but you need to hold her to the same standards as every other adult who's going through any other kind of hard time. And I was like, you know what? I think you guys have a point. I think you guys have a point. I mean, I truly only looked at it from her perspective because I could see myself in her shoes and I could feel what she was feeling and I could understand exactly why she was behaving the way she was, and I just forgot to remember that there were other people involved who also deserved to be treated well and deserve to be happy.

Kate:                    Wow, that's intense.

Doree:                I See. I'm about now.

Kate:                    I feel like the original answer was also okay. I don't know.

Doree:                I feel like I'm kind of in the middle. I agree with people who said, you don't get carte blanche to be an asshole. On the other hand, I think that you can have a degree of empathy in the way you approach this with the woman and not just be like, you don't get to be an asshole.

Jenee:                 Get over it. Yeah.

Doree:                Telling someone to get over it is the worst thing you can do. So I think if you're going to have that conversation, you can come to it from a place of empathy and understanding and kindness and not like you're being a brat because that's not going to help anything.

Jenee:                 Right. Totally.

Doree:                So I don't know. I feel like your listeners, maybe readers were a little harsh.

Jenee:                 Okay. Thank you for defending me. Yeah.

Doree:                Yeah. I mean, I dunno, it's tough.

Jenee:                 It did make me a little bit more aware of that particular bias.

Doree:                Right? Sure.

Jenee:                 I do get a lot of questions about infertility and IVF and who doesn't want to go to the baby shower and what to say and what not to say and what kind of behavior is acceptable and what's not.

Kate:                    Yeah. How do you advise people to learn how to become thoughtful advice givers? To me, this is one of those things where it's like we just assume we know people know how to be good friends when actually learning how to be a good friend is a skill you have to learn. I feel like giving listening and giving advice is also a skill, and if it's not modeled for us or if we've had bad experiences, it can be hard to know how to do it. Do you have best practices or advice giving 1 0 1 that you go back to for folks who are like, how do I do this?

Jenee:                 Well, definitely when it comes to actual life, do not ever give advice unless you're asked. And even I struggle with this, which

Doree:                I didn't follow that earlier when you were talking about taking a plane ride. I apologize, but that

Jenee:                 I welcomed your advice about flying with a toddler, extra snacks, change of clothes noted. So definitely don't give it if it's not us, especially if it's about a sensitive issue. But also, even if it's not, I think people are just annoyed by unsolicited advice. We have enough input every day. My other idea would probably be to base your advice on a set of principles or just a set of, or I try to filter my advice through a handful of sort of basic beliefs that I feel really confident in and that I can apply to different situations. So for example, I feel sure that relationships should make you happier and not unhappier. I think that's a fair thing to say, right? So I'm going to get requests for advice from people about their relationships that have all different kinds of fact patterns, but I'm often going to come back to that one point, and to make that point, I don't have to say your boyfriend is a total asshole. Your boyfriend I think has this mental health diagnosis. Your boyfriend needs to do whatever. You don't need to be insulting. You don't need to get all the way in the weeds if you simply come back to that value that you believe is true and that you think the person you're giving advice to can also buy into.

Kate:                    Okay. That is great advice. And I also feel like it would be a good practice for me to write down what some of those core values are, those core beliefs, because that is really helpful to kind of know. And over the years, Doree and I have been asked questions about partners, and I do think sometimes I turn my armchair therapist brain on, which is not, which I think is not the way to go. And I like what you're saying, I am not going to be able to diagnose someone's mental health or know the ins and outs of their relationship, but this is a belief that I hold to be true, and I can come back to that as the grounding point for my response to you. It's so thoughtful. I love it.

Jenee:                 And then I have about dating is that dating, and let's just say at the point under a year dating is for getting to know someone, enjoying yourself, and collecting data on whether that person will be a good long-term fit. It's not for changing someone. So if it's only been three months, I'm never going to encourage someone to try to make a dirty person clean, try to make an antisocial person social. If you've been married 35 years and you want to keep your marriage, by all means ask the person for some compromise, ask them to bend. But in the dating stage, I'm forever saying, if you don't like what you see, it's okay to peacefully move on without trying to mold your partner into the person you want them to be.

Kate:                    Yeah.

Doree:                That's hard. I think especially for people who are fixers or who do give unsolicited advice, that can be tough. Yeah. Jenee, did you read advice columnists as a kid?

Jenee:                 Yeah. I remember reading Ann Landers. There was even this one in our local Alt Weekly called The Advice Goddess, and I remember I used to just always turn to that page and read it. Yeah, I think there's a certain, I would be willing to bet that most people who are writers or journalists probably read a lot of them. I think we're very nosy, and it's for the same reason that I've always read. I like reality tv, not so much for the drama, even low drama reality tv. I just love to know the little details of the little dramas that are going on in other people's lives. So yeah, I've always, and even the previous Dear Prudence, I used to listen to Danny's podcast and I would pause it and think about what I would say. I just thought it was really fun and it's a great outlet for being nosy and being a little bit messy without constantly tapping your friends for. So how was the date? Did you call 'em? Did anything interesting happen or for wanting your friends to get into messy situations to entertain you? So yeah, always been an advice fan.

Kate:                    It's funny you say that. I love gossip, and I think it's the same. It's like the insatiable curiosity is totally, it's like an itch. You have to scratch a little bit, and it doesn't come from a malicious or a place of malice, but it's that need, that hunger to know all the information.

Doree:                So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

Kate:                    I want to know if you have thoughts on how to manage your judgment as a friend, giving advice when someone comes to you, and I know we're all striving to not approach conversations or situations with judgment, but we're also humans, and I think it is innate that we do this. How do you mitigate or manage your own judgment of others when dishing out advice or when hearing people's situations, people who are seeking advice from you, or even just friends?

Jenee:                 This is a really hard one for me because I've actually, in the past, been called out by my friends for being judgmental, and I've even lost a friend over being judgmental. So this is something that is really tough for me, and I do think I've improved, and I think the answer is to not try to, when you're meditating, you're allowed to have thoughts and you just notice them, but you don't do anything about them. Don't try to stop yourself from the judgment, because I think that's sort of an uphill battle, but just be really careful about whether you address it. So I tend to lean toward, if I don't know what to say or if I know that the thing that's on the top of my tongue is going to be judgmental and not going to be helpful and could be hurtful, just repeating and mirroring the person's feelings and experience back to them. I think a lot of times that's what people need and want, just to know that you understand them and you can authentically do that. Even if there's a corner of you inside that is feeling judgmental, you can put that aside and just be like, wow, this is hard. You said you felt like that, and I hate that for you. You don't deserve this. I think you don't deserve, this is a huge one. None of us deserve to be suffering in all these various ways. So yeah, basically edit yourself. Edit yourself and emphasize the parts that are more helpful, which are being validating and supportive.

Kate:                    That's great. It keeps saying, that's great advice, but really literally everything out of your mouth is great advice. I was just thinking it is very, I find it very useful because I think sometimes as a friend, it can be, we want to solve things for our friend. We care about people and we want to offer solutions, and I think that's sometimes where I get mixed up as an advice giver or as a friend is like, I just want to fix this for you, and I'm hearing all these things rather than just like, oh, you just need to be heard. And that is my job also.

Jenee:                 Yes. Also, one thing I try to remember, and then I do tell people in the column, is sometimes people just have to go what they have to go through.

Doree:                Yes, totally.

Jenee:                 So all of us have made bad relationship choices. All of us have made bad choices in probably fights with people in our family. All of us have had our career moments where we weren't at our best and we weren't our most professional, and I think we, many of us would argue that we needed to go through those things to get to a better place. So I think one thing that can bring people a little bit of peace, if they're watching, for example, a friend in a really crappy relationship that they just need to get out of because it's horrible for everyone and it's not going anywhere, is just to remember, this might be what my friend needs to experience to get to who they're going to be, and I still want to be their friend on the other side of it. I don't want them to be left alone in this relationship without any support. So I just kind of have to sit back. And that doesn't mean don't say anything. You can remind them that they deserve to be treated better, that you want the best for them, that you would love to see them happier, that you're there for them, but it means you don't to pull them out of the situation to get them to a situation that looks better to you.

Doree:                Yeah. I think it can sometimes go back to what you were saying before, the old are you just, do you want to just vent or do you want advice? Yeah. And then what makes it tough is if they say, well, I do want advice, and then they don't really want to hear what you have to say. So yeah, that is tough.

Jenee:                 You don't want to create a situation if you do care about someone. You don't want to create a situation where they lie to you or afraid to talk to you or end up pushing you away because then you both lose

Doree:                That. I think that's so important. If they feel judged, then they're not going to come to you maybe when things get really bad.

Jenee:                 Exactly.

Doree:                Jenee, we got a few, we asked our listeners for questions for you, and we'd love it. I know we're putting you on the spot, but if you wouldn't mind taking a stab at maybe a sum of these questions, that would be great.

Jenee:                 Sure.

Doree:                Okay, let's do it. A very rich friend is getting married. I am not rich. What is the gifting etiquette?

Jenee:                 I mean, I think the general rule that people point to is to get a gift that's kind of around the cost of what it'll cost them to feed you, which varies wildly, but 150, 200, if you cannot afford it, it is okay. If your friend is a rich person who has manners, they'll have some cheaper items on the registry, and those are specifically for people like you who can't afford to get the bigger items, get them something that you can afford without ruining your experience at the wedding or making it a stressful experience for you. I think if this is a good friend, they don't want you to feel put out or to be worrying about your bank account balance while you're celebrating them. If this is a wealthy friend, they also don't need the expensive thing from you. They'll be okay. They're not going to be sitting around going, oh, I don't have those really nice linens because this friend was cheap. Anyway, long story short, get what you can comfortably buy and add a very nice heartfelt card or maybe a small, inexpensive, thoughtful, personal item, framed picture, tiny, personalized thing, whatever it is that just shows that you really do care and you may be expressing it in ways that don't cost as much money, but you're still expressing it.

Doree:                Again, good advice.

Jenee:                 Do you know what people care about more just RSVP on time?

Doree:                Totally.

Kate:                    Oh my gosh, yes.

Jenee:                 Yeah. I mean, your rich friend is not worried about the blender. They're worried about getting their seating chart together. RSVP on time, be a fun wedding guest, talk to the grandma, dance with the 4-year-old on the dance floor, make things fun and festive. There are a lot of other things you can bring to the table besides putting something expensive in an online shopping cart.

Kate:                    Amen. Someone just wrote the guilt of being a working mom, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. This is something I think we can all speak to. Well, have you experienced the guilt of being a working mom? I guess I should first ask, and how do you kind of continue to grapple with that? And I open this Doree to you and to me as well.

Jenee:                 Yeah. I like my job a lot, but there's a big part of me that wishes I could have two lives, one life where I do this job and another life where I just spend all my time with my kid. A couple of things that are helpful for me to remember are that one, it's actually, I think it's really good for kids to be cared for by a variety of people, just to get used to the fact that there are different people in the world who do things differently and be able to be comfortable in different situations. Two, I think you can really maximize the time that you do have. So you can't control needing an income, but you can control not scrolling, TikTok while you push your kid on the swing and just sort of juicing the moments you have for all their worth. Now I know that suggestion brings its own guilt where people are like, but I need to get things done. Totally get it. We all need to make dinner. But I think my studies at Instagram University have taught me from reading various captions that if you can get 10 good minutes a few times a day, think about the 10 minutes after they wake up really solid, good connection time, the 10 minutes when you first see them, the 10 minutes before they go to bed. Those can create some really powerful memories and be meaningful. And who knows, maybe even more meaningful than if you were staying home trying to do groceries, keep the house clean, cook while still not being able to pay attention to them all the time. Basically, there are very few people who in history, who have had nothing to do but be on the floor playing with a kid. And a lot of kids have grown up into really wonderful people who love their parents. So stay hopeful.

Doree:                Another question, my husband came out as non-binary out to some friends and our three-year-old, but not to either of our parents help.

Jenee:                 I guess I would want to know help with what? Help. I'm going to guess that the question is help dealing with the stress of keeping the secret from the parents

Doree:                Or help telling them, right? It's a little unclear.

Jenee:                 Yeah. I guess I would take a step back and try to remember that what your husband is going through is really huge, really intense and really stressful, and not to rank different kinds of suffering or stress, but it's a little deeper than what your parents may be experiencing by not having full information or even what you may be experiencing by having to tiptoe around a temporary secret. So just for some perspective setting. And then I think I would go to, I think you send the letter him, I don't know if I should be saying them, but I want to make sure I'm using the right program now. I'll go with the letter and say him, go to him for advice about maybe a proposed timeline. When might we start thinking about rolling out this information to our parents? What are your main concerns and fears? How can I help to make sure that those fears aren't realized? How can I support you during this time? And also, can we come up with a loose plan as a family for what the next month, six months and year might look like in terms of the rollout of this information? So I don't want you to think that because your husband is going through this really intense life moment that you have to completely tiptoe around the issue. I think that you two still need to be partners in figuring out a way forward, and what you don't want to do is sort of keep your stress about it to yourself and inside, because that's going to separate the two of you during a really sensitive time, and you need to make sure that you remain a team and just remain really open with each other.

Kate:                    I have one final listener question for all of us, which made me chuckle, but also I think is very relatable. And the question is just how to deal with life LOL, and I mean, my initial answer is I don't know if anybody has the answer to that one. I feel like we're all trying to figure that out, but I guess when things are overwhelming or when life feels undealable,

Jenee:                 Yeah,

Kate:                    what do you do when you're having one of those days or in one of those moments, how do you care for yourself and get through it?

Jenee:                 One, I know it feels cliche to talk a lot about gratitude, but I do think it's helpful to remember that if you're someone who's listening to Forever35 and wondering how to deal with life, I'm going to take a guess that you're in about the top 10% of comfortable and privileged people in the world and that you probably have shelter and you're probably relatively financially secure and you probably have decent health, or else maybe you probably would've mentioned that one of those things was going terribly. So that perspective can help me just realizing how incredibly lucky I am to have the problems I have. I believe in a super basic gratitude list. People do these gratitude journals like the sound of the chirping birds and the way my coffee splashed into the cup and the way the sun sprinkled through the trees. And when I think about gratitude, it's always just, I'm pretty much healthy and the people I love are pretty much healthy. I don't mind going to work every day and I don't have acne anymore. That was a huge burden on me. So I'm so glad every day that I wake up and I have to deal with acne, if I just think about those things, it kind of boosts me a little. And I guess if the question is how to deal with life, meaning that balancing act we all do. I, you've seen the memes that are just trying to juggle drinking water, exercising work, being a good friend, wearing silage clothes, keeping up with my family, and it's impossible. I just try to lean into the one or two things that are working for me at any given moment. So I mentioned earlier, I'm not a person who exercises right now. I'm just not going to think about it. I am a person who likes work and thinks work is going well. Right now. I'm a person who's going through a phase of doing a really good job, keeping in touch with my friends. I love using voice notes. I've had some amazing conversations recently. So I really try to put my focus and energy on just the things that I'm excelling at and to the extent possible, put the stuff that's not going as great on the back burner and don't dedicate a ton of energy to what parts of life you're not managing.

Doree:                I'm going to get that stitched onto a needle point. I think. Jenee, this was so great to get to talk to you,

Kate:                    Doree,

Doree:                and thank you. Yes.

Kate:                    I'm going to interrupt because I didn't get to ask Jenee about any skincare products that she used.

Doree:                Please ask,

Kate:                    And I just do feel like I want to know if there's anything all that you feel like sharing in the skincare realm.

Doree:                Thank you Kate. Anything?

Jenee:                 Tell me why I brought something into the office. Just in case you ask you this question, you never want to volunteer it, then go. Many people have been asking about my skincare routine, but if someone does ask, I have something that's going to blow your listeners' minds. This foundation costs $4 and 99 cents.

Kate:                    Hold on. Hold on.

Jenee:                 It's from Walmart. You can get it on Amazon where it may go up to $7. It's called phoera. I think that's how you pronounce it. P-H-O-E-R-A, soft matte longwear liquid foundation. I mentioned I've had a lifelong battle with my skin. I had acne from 14 until I went on Accutane at 27. I've had melasma. I'm a makeup wearer just to eliminate my lack of self-confidence in the skin issue. This foundation is so good. My mom and I started using it. It's the only foundation we've bought and bought. And believe me, I've tried them all. I will say I don't know what's in it. I stopped using it when I was pregnant. It may be made with lead paint from before 1960. I don't know. I'm sure it's full of chemicals. It's not clean. It's a great foundation and everyone should go online and buy one, $5. Just try it.

Kate:                    Phoera, how did you first come to this? Wow.

Jenee:                 So one of my self-care practices is reading all those lists that pop up from those weird websites where it's like 19 Amazon finds that beauty reviewers say

Kate:                    My favorite kind of list

Jenee:                 they can't live without, and I'll read through and I'll scroll on them, and I'll just imagine the different ways in which my life could be improved by the perfect leggings or the perfect haircare products. And one of those was these foundation. This foundation, and they talked about all the amazing reviews it had. So I went and read the reviews, and I think they're authentic. I could be getting scammed, I don't know. But people love this stuff and it hasn't gone viral yet, at least not on my corner of TikTok. So let me be the one to start it. $5 foundation.

Kate:                    I'll tell you, I'm on their website. It says it is vegan paraben and sulfate free. Cruelty free.

Jenee:                 Oh My god.

Kate:                    Oil and silicon free formula that gives you flawless full coverage with a lightweight serum like feel hypoallergenic. You might really be onto the holy grail here.

Doree:                Wow.

Jenee:                 It's good. I mean, my skin looks pretty good right now, right?

Doree:                Yes.

Kate:                    Yeah. Yes,

Jenee:                 It does have it on. Yeah,

Kate:                    Your skin looks great. Yeah, but you know what also looks great? The $5. The only $5 that you spend, right?

Jenee:                 I mean, I've gotten to the bottom of this thing. Wow. Three times.

Kate:                    Three times. Okay. That was a sign. Okay, that's amazing. I'm going in. I'm going for it. Okay.

Jenee:                 Get it.

Kate:                    I'll report back. Thank you for hot tip,

Jenee:                 And just go ahead and get three colors if you dunno what your shade is, because again, $5

Kate:                    You kind of do have to do that, and sometimes you even have to mix the shades to really get to really nail it. Well, thank you. This is a really hot tip. I'm so glad we asked.

Jenee:                 Yeah, I can't wait to hear an update on how it works out.

Kate:                    Well, I Jenee, this has been wonderful.

Jenee:                 This has been so fun. This has been fun. Both of you.

Doree:                Jenee, where can our listeners find you on the internet?

Jenee:                 So I'm still a little bit against my better judgment on Twitter slash x @JDesmondHarris, and then the Dear Prudence column publishes@slate.com every Thursday and the Dear Prudence Podcast comes out every Friday. Yay.

Doree:                Thanks again.

Kate:                    Thank you.

Jenee:                 Bye. Thank you.

Kate:                    Well, Doree, like I said, I think Jenee is fantastic. I just have really enjoyed our conversations with her. I find her to be so thoughtful, generous in spirit, considerate, really. You know what I found when we recorded our episode of Dear Prudence with her and then also listening to her talk is she really thinks about things in a way that I don't. Her advice is so nuanced and really thoughtful, and I feel like I often just kind of rushed to judgment and I just really, I feel like I have learned a lot from the way she models sharing advice, and I'm going to try that foundation.

Doree:                Same. I'm going to try it too, even though I don't really wear foundation anymore. I'm going to try it.

Kate:                    I don't really either, but yet I have a shopping problem here in capitalist, whatever. This is the end of the capitalist society. I don't know. But look, you tell me there's a $5 foundation. I'm going to go find it for

Doree:                Sure.

Kate:                    Well, let's share some intensions for this week. This is a practice we have been doing on every episode of this podcast for almost six years, and I really do find that doing this weekly with you really helps me focus on these things.

Doree:                I love that.

Kate:                    Just going to throw that out there. Last week I said I was going to try to slow myself down a bit because I was feeling that the pull of the season and just getting caught up in so much stuff, and I did accomplish that last week, but that is partially because it was a holiday week. We were home, we were off working on the podcast. Publishing was off. We were able to kind of take some time, but I'm going to lean into this. It was really, really good. It was a really good quality time. I spent time with my kids and my husband and we had a lot of laughs and it was just really a nice few days off. So I'm glad that I was able to be present in those slow days.

Doree:                That's so nice.

Kate:                    Thank you, Doree.

Doree:                And what about this coming week?

Kate:                    Okay, so this week I'm kind of picking up an old Forever35 intention that I believe was brought to the podcast by Glenys McNichol.

Doree:                Okay.

Kate:                    Well, I'm doing two things. I am trying to drink a warm glass of water first thing in the morning before my coffee. And I'm also trying to eat breakfast before I drink my coffee, because I will tell you, I have been guzzling like three to four cups of coffee first thing in the morning. Not doesn't make me feel great. It's a lot of heartburn, indigestion, sensations from that. So I'm trying to eat first. It doesn't need to be a feast, but just put something in my stomach before the coffee. And so much of coffee is like a ritual for me. I get out of bed and I walk to the coffee. It's like instant. It's one of the first things I do within minutes of waking up. So it is a real shift for me not to have coffee immediately upon rising. But I do notice I feel a lot better when I have some water and when I have some food and then have coffee in terms of indigestion. So there you have it. I did it this morning and I felt so much better, even though I could smell the coffee brewing and I was like, oh my God, I want it. I want to bathe in that coffee. That's my intention. How about you? What did you do last week?

Doree:                So my intention last week on our production notes, it just says grounded. And I honestly do not remember what I meant by that. Obviously stay grounded, but in what context? Was it just about holidays stay grounded during the holidays? I don't totally know. I will say, yeah. I mean, the holidays are stressful, but I feel like we actually had a really nice trip to Boston for Thanksgiving. And I wouldn't say I felt calm necessarily throughout all of it because I was traveling with a 4-year-old, but it was really nice to see family and it was a great trip. And I also feel like we spent the perfect amount of time there, which was nice.

Kate:                    Isn't that an art?

Doree:                It's an art, Kate.

Kate:                    Figuring out the perfect amount of time with family.

Doree:                It can be hard when you're traveling across the country to not feel like, well, I'm going so far, so I should really spend three weeks.

Kate:                    You're like, yes, because plane tickets are extremely expensive.

Doree:                Oh yeah. The plane tickets were exorbitant and then you get five days in and you're like, how much longer am I here for? And also, you pretty much lose a day going to the east coast. And so there's a lot to think about. But we got in super late Monday night, essentially Tuesday morning, and then we left very, very early Saturday morning. So we had Tuesday, Wednesday we had four full days and I think that was perfect. So that's just my 2 cents.

Kate:                    Well done.

Doree:                Now we returned to find half of our kitchen basically sheet plastic sheeted off. I won't bore you with the details, but let's just say that literally as we were walking out the door to go to the airport, Matt was like, Hmm, why is there water on the floor? Oh, our sink is leaking.

Kate:                    Oh no.

Doree:                And so our landlord had come and then he texted Matt while we were in Boston. He was like, don't disturb the drying equipment that they left there. It needs to be dried out. And I'm thinking, oh, you just put a couple of fans? No, it's a massive thing that has to be running 24 7. So I'm sure we're going to be paying, our electricity bill is going to be three times the price and half of our kitchen is blocked off and we can't use our kitchen sink and we don't have a big kitchen. So it's really annoying. And he said he was coming back today to fix it, and it turns out it's not going to be done until Wednesday. So I'm kind of like, okay, if I let myself get too annoyed by this, I'm just going to lose my mind. We can't really cook because we can't do dishes. No. It's just very annoying. So I'm trying, my intention this week is to try not to go insane about not having access to half my kitchen in the kitchen sink. That's my intention. Okay.

Kate:                    Good luck. Good luck with that.

Doree:                Thanks so much.

Kate:                    That's hard to do.

Doree:                Yeah. I don't know if I'll be successful, but I'm stating it as an intention.

Kate:                    Okay. You try your best and that's,

Doree:                I'm going to try my best. Yes, exactly.

Kate:                    Well, friends, Forever35 is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast. And we thank you for listening.

Doree:                Bye.