Kate and Doree discuss gratitude (and how to find it). Then they’re joined by writer and pop culture expert, Lindsey Weber, co-host of the Who Weekly podcast! They discuss current celebrity culture, her favorite whos and thems to follow, celebrity skincare and makeup products she’s tried, and her idea of the perfect amount of famous. 

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Transcript

Kate:                    Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,

Doree:                And I am Doree Shafrir.

Kate:                    And together we are not experts

Doree:                Apart. We kind of are

Kate:                    On certain things,

Doree:                but not together.

Kate:                    Together we're not.

Doree:                Together. We're definitely not

Kate:                    amateurs.

Doree:                We are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate:                    Hello Doree.

Doree:                Hello, Kate. I thought about you this morning.

Kate:                    Really?

Doree:                I did.

Kate:                    Go on, Give us the details.

Doree:                I was playing tennis and it was just a beautiful day outside. It's been really hot here and today was kind of humid and it felt like today was the first day in a while where it's just felt nice out,

Kate:                    Felt like fall a little bit. Crisp, If you will.

Doree:                Yeah, a little bit. I mean, it was still warm and the sun was still out, but it just felt lovely. And I was outside playing tennis and I was like, I'm so lucky that I get to do this. I'm so grateful. And then I thought everything has felt really shitty lately. Maybe I should do a gratitude journal. And the first thing I would write is I'm grateful to be able to play tennis and be outside and move my body and a lot of things in the world and my life are not great right now, but there are these moments and I want to remember them.

Kate:                    It's so interesting you say this because one thing I have been kind of doing on and off all year is loving kindness meditation practices. And I find them really kind of valuable because there's steps to it. So you extend, you focus loving kindness to yourself, to someone you care about, to someone you don't really know to a person who

Doree:                So thought you're going to say to someone you don't care about.

Kate:                    No, that's part of it.

Doree:                Well, it is.

Kate:                    That is part of it. The person that you don't know is kind of like maybe a person you passed on the street or stranger that you're thinking about. But then there is a part of it that is extending loving kindness to a person who you are finding it challenging to feel that way toward. And I also think about it in terms of extending out into the world. And it's been again on my mind as we are in this kind of heightened state of conflict and war and grief. I mean, just palpable grief. And I think that has been something, it's hard. It's hard to do, but it's been a part of how I've been trying to sit with things. And also I think about how we cultivate our space here on the podcast as a space for people to come to take a break from all the challenges. Challenges is putting it nicely. It is extremely heavy right now. And I know you and I have talked about this privately and it's just hard. It's just hard. I wish there were easier and better ways to be a person in the world And it doesn't feel like there are, I don't know. But I think that's really lovely. And I think what's powerful about a gratitude practice is I don't think it's delving into toxic positivity or ignoring the weight of crises or people suffering or your own suffering, but I do think it does provide just a bit of light whether the darkness is super dark or dusky dark.

Doree:                Yeah. Do you have a gratitude journal that you like?

Kate:                    I do. And I would be happy to share it with you. It's just something, look, I know it's not great, but I bought it off of Amazon and I'm actually about to finish my second one and it's called the, let me make sure I have the name, the One Minute Gratitude Journal and it's just, lemme find it. I think you can use anything as a gratitude journal. I like this. I always write the date down and then weirdly it creates a space for day. And I think they wanted you to write the day of the week, but I just started counting how many days I've been doing the gratitude practice. But actually that's kind of been interesting. I can see what day I'm on and I normally do it every day, but I miss a couple days here and there. So I think I've been doing it for over a year and I think I've hit like 400 entries.

Doree:                Wow.

Kate:                    And so I've done two of these little books and I'm going to get another one because the structure's just easy for me to follow, but I don't think you need a specific gratitude journal to track your gratitude. I think you could really just scribble it in a notebook, but I like having, for whatever reason, it just kind of helps me to have something that is a bit declarative in this way.

Doree:                Yeah. Anyway, I was like, oh, Kate has been doing gratitude journaling for so long and just popped into my head.

Kate:                    I will say there are days where I'm like, I feel grateful for nothing. Everything is hard and awful and who am I to think I could find gratitude? And then I'm just like, I'm grateful for my clean water.

Doree:                Yeah, totally.

Kate:                    There are so many things. There really are things.

Doree:                Totally.

Kate:                    I love a gratitude practice. Of course not for everyone, but if it resonates with you right now, I think that's lovely. I think that's lovely. I support it.

Doree:                Thanks Kate.

Kate:                    I support it and I look forward to you entering gratitude for Kate Spencer on every entry.

Doree:                I was going to say that'll be on every page.

Kate:                    It's got to be every single, I mean just maybe a whole page of my name written over and over again.

Doree:                Just put your name on the cover.

Kate:                    Just me.

Doree:                Yeah.

Kate:                    Doree's Gratitude Journal about working with Kate Spencer.

Doree:                That's all it is.

Kate:                    Well, I think in times of when we are feeling despair, I do appreciate when people tell us that our podcast is a bit of a relief for them. And I think our guest today is a person who provides an immense service for those of us seeking joy and a distraction that might fill us with laughter.

Doree:                That is such a great way of putting it. Kate,

Kate:                    We're talking today to Lindsay Weber. Lindsay is, she's a freelance writer and an editor who lives in Brooklyn, but she is also the co-host of a podcast you might know called Who Weekly, which she co-hosts with her dear friend Bobby Finger. And it has been described as the perfect podcast about celebrities who make you say who. And it is a long running podcast longer than ours. They have been independently producing it for years and it's fantastic and so funny and smart and filled with just a wonderful world of inside jokes about celebrities and it's such a wonderful break to get to tune into the Who Weekly world.

Doree:                Such a delight. I so enjoyed getting to talk to Lindsay. Yeah, like Kate mentioned, they were really one of those podcasts that we looked up to when we launched our show because they were another independent show. We knew Lindsay and Bobby Lindsay more than Bobby, but we knew them and it just was very cool to see them succeed and like us, they're still going, which is awesome.

Kate:                    Still chugging along.

Doree:                Still chugging along. So anyway, before we get to Lindsay, just a reminder that you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram @Forever35podcast. We also have our Patreon at patreon.com/forever35. We've started doing another episode format on our Patreon that we're just calling Casual Chats. They're kind of like mini apps except they're just us chatting, catching up with each other and I really enjoy them.

Kate:                    It's really fun. It's very fun. It's giving us space to talk about things like Travis Kelsey.

Doree:                Totally.

Kate:                    Everyone's favorite topic, old Trav.

Doree:                Definitely yours and not not mine.

Kate:                    Yeah, I was going to say speak for yourself over there. I mean, yeah, we both are intrigued by old Travis.

Doree:                We're both intrigued by Trav. We have a newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter and please call and text us at (781) 591-0390. You can also email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. And here's Lindsay.

Kate:                    Okay. This is a dream come true. I don't want to just go start on such a high note, but I think we can, Doree and I, we can agree this is like a dream.

Doree:                Totally.

Kate:                    Lindsay Weber is here to talk to us.

Doree:                Yay.

Kate:                    An icon of internet culture, pop culture, podcasting.

Doree:                The list goes on.

Kate:                    You are like,

Lindsey:              When do I get to talk?

Kate:                    Never. This is 60 minutes of us just talking about you.

Lindsey:              This is torture.

Kate:                    Yeah, I know. It's so fun having other podcasters on because I think it's torture to not

Lindsey:              Talk,

Kate:                    to be interviewed, to have to sit there. It's weird. Lindsay, welcome to Forever35. Our listeners. We will have introed you before.

Lindsey:              Thank you.

Kate:                    We get to this interview, but you don't even need the intro.

Lindsey:              I feel like we're the same age podcast too, which I find really charming. It's like we are of the same generation. If podcasts had an eight, we start at the same time. We were dealing with the same equipment. Our podcast probably sound the same when we launched, which I find very endearing. For some reason we really were coming of age in the same era and we've both stuck around. I can't believe that on any level,

Kate:                    What are we doing here still?

Lindsey:              Or how are we even allowed to be in existence still? I'm still impressed by both of us, is what I'm saying. I guess

Kate:                    We did it well. Who's in self-care are kind of one and the same, honestly.

Lindsey:              Yeah, right. Well

Doree:                In all honesty, I mean I do think your podcast is self-care for a lot of people.

Lindsey:              They tell us that and I find it hard to believe, but I also find it still, if I'm doing it seven years later, clearly I find a bit of self-care or I find a little bit of fun and levity in it to the point where I'm still doing it. And that is something I guess

Kate:                    In the seven years since you have been recording, who weekly with Bobby Finger, do you feel like what defines a who in the world of celebrity has changed?

Lindsey:              Yeah, I mean I think that's what keeps us doing it. It's like what's interesting about celebrity culture has shifted. When we first started it, we had noticed it was different. We weren't the only ones. And now it's even different than it was then. And that's what keeps it interesting versus just the stuff that's funny no matter what, which is when a celebrity falls down the stairs in a funny way or does something stupid or makes us laugh. It's just overall, is our podcast more of a necessity? Is it less of a necessity? Are we growing with culture? Are we growing against culture? That stuff is what keeps it kind of a little bit of a meta thing that I think keeps us happy. Which if it was just reporting on bikini photos and kind of silly stuff, we would've been out long ago. But I think as long as there is this kind of changing celebrity culture where we're interested, so yeah, definitely it's changed.

Doree:                Lindsay, for the purposes of people who, there's probably five of our listeners who aren't familiar with who Weekly. But for those people, could you just briefly describe what is a who what is a them and how your podcast started? Just to give ourselves this context?

Lindsey:              So just in the base level, when we first started, and actually today, although today, this is actually less of an example because there's even less magazines at the checkout counter than there was when we started. We always said when you go to the grocery store and you see your tabloid magazines at the checkout counter, the ones on the covers that you're like, I don't even know who that is. Why are they on the cover of US Weekly? That's a who. And then the ones that you see and you're like, of course Julia Roberts is on the whatever. Those are them. So it really is as basic binary as I know them. I don't know them, but of course who knows what is always different levels of who's in them. And how we got started was it was a newsletter, it was a Tumblr experience, it was a friendship that was just based on laughing at celebrities and memes and whatever. And then we realized that it was actually interesting to us this whole thing. And a lot of it was inspired by oh no they didn't, which is a live journal community of like-minded celebrity lovers and just kind their conversations on the shifting celebrity nature of culture, whatever, and distilling it into this joke where it's like this person is everywhere, but I have no idea who they are is a very relatable thing, but I'm still interested in who they are, still want to know who they are. And that I think is the key. It's like it's one thing to be like I don't know who they are and I don't give a shit. It's another thing to be like, why is everyone talking about them? What am I missing? And I think that's what we've always stayed on the side of. Is there something to know? And that's the pod.

Doree:                Yes. And I think that is, to me, it feels like that's sort of the secret sauce of your podcast is it's not mocking, right? I mean it's slightly mocking

Lindsey:              For the most part.

Doree:                For the most part, yes. But I guess what I mean is you take the whole enterprise very seriously in a way.

Lindsey:              And we love our who's, we live for them.

Doree:                That's what I mean.

Lindsey:              We live for them. And if they didn't exist, we wouldn't. And I think we're very grateful for them. And we have these who's that have grown with us, they've grown into them, they've remained, we are on the journey, we're on this journey together of relevance. And we're like, okay, we feel really connected to them. I don't even have to their work, but I'm as a celebrity, on a celebrity level, I feel very connected to them.

Doree:                Yes. I think that's what I'm trying to get across at. There is a sort of level of almost affection that you have for these. They're like characters, right? I mean, I shouldn't say that. You don't mock them because that is inaccurate.

Kate:                    I mean that is a fun part of your podcast,

Doree:                but that is, I don't know, this sort of just affection for this world of people

Lindsey:              and just the frivolous of it and the kind of, we take it so seriously, but then it's not serious and it's funny and it is inconsequential and I don't know. I don't know how to explain. It's stupid. It's important. I don't know. That's what, when you meet somebody who cares about it in the way you do, there's a connection there. There's something to talk about. It's hard to explain, but it's like it really is a sensibility. And I think that's maybe the connection. That's why people really like it because it is one of those things where it's the way you look at tabloids and the way you look at celebrities, that is what we're all finding fun or whatever. Is it fun? Yes,

Doree:                Totally.

Kate:                    And it's kind of amazing because you've been doing it long enough that I remember Zendaya was a who when you all first started and she's now a firm them. And so it is kind of amazing watching the trajectory of certain people's, they either plateau or they transition down or up. It's also very, it feels often to me very clear there's really a gray, I dunno, you're the expert, but

Lindsey:              No, you're right. There's bonafide. That's a them. But then also you meet someone who doesn't know who that is. But then that person's kind of like, I don't really care about celebrities. And you're like, okay, well then that's why you don't care who that is. We don't have a mass media as much. People love to talk about this and I think it's very true. If something isn't on Netflix then no one cares or something at this point. But then even that's starting to be less true. So it's also one of those things where becoming a them is Zendaya is such an interesting example because there's not that many who to thems over the past seven years that I can even name because it's something that we're losing. We're losing stars. Stardom is so ubiquitous, a-list. Stardom is so hard to achieve. So many who's are achieving the same monetary success as thems. They don't need to be thems. Why would you work on a grand level when you could just work on a small level and make probably more money than you would or be more beloved and live an easier life than, I dunno why I keep saying Julia Roberts, but Julia Roberts or Zendaya who can't go anywhere do anything. So it's like that's kind of part of what's interesting is where are the thems or whatever, why no one sees movies anymore or whatever. I don't know.

Kate:                    Do you mourn the loss of them Celebrity culture?

Lindsey:              Yes and no because look at Taylor Swift right now. I would say yes. But then I literally would say, look at Taylor Swift and it's the most grown, someone who I like the music, the talent would go see, et cetera, et cetera. But oh my God, is that so annoying? Maybe this is what we're not really missing that much. Maybe we don't miss it that much.

Doree:                I really like that point because I feel like certainly when you started in my mind, and maybe this was inaccurate to begin with, but in my mind it was always, it was aspirational for who to become a them. You kind of graduated from hood to them Dom, and it was like, great job everybody. You're now a them. But you're saying now it's like you can be a who and exist in a niche that can be quite large. And like you said, quite lucrative. And graduating to be a them is maybe not as appealing. So yeah, that's really interesting.

Lindsey:              And maybe graduating means something scandalous to raise you to that kind of platform. And maybe you actually don't want to have a sex tape cheat on be cheated on whatever it is that gets you to that next level. That is what requires, or something aside from, I don't even think winning an Oscar at this point is enough to graduate people because who's watching the Oscars or who cares? Good point. So that's the thing. It's the standards, not even standards, the kind of bar has been raised, and I don't even mean in an objective way, good or bad, it's just the bar has been raised to get to of them. And that bar might actually suck. You might actually not want to be.

Doree:                Right. Right. Yes. I feel like Spencer Pratt and Heidi Montag were early people who figured this out.

Lindsey:              Oh, I mean they did. They're geniuses. We're going, going on their podcast, me and Bobby are, and next week, which is going to be amazing.

Doree:                That'll be so fun.

Lindsey:              And they have a podcast now that's called Spidey 16th Minute, which refers to their 16th minute of fame. And their whole thing is now asking people, how do we become famous again? And my whole thing is, you're the perfect amount of famous.

Doree:                Exactly, Yes. You figured something out.

Lindsey:              Right. But I think they're, the why they're so good is because they're always striving and that's kind of what is so great about them. But in my perspective, I'm like, you guys are the ideal. You live in a perfect place for that. But they want to be richer anyways. I'll tell them that to, I can't wait to tell 'em that to their face.

Doree:                Please do. No, I mean, I feel like I've always had a soft spot for Spencer, but his whole persona in the last few years has really endeared him to me because there's a level of self-awareness that I think very few celebrities have. And I think, I don't know, I just appreciate that about him.

Lindsey:              He's definitely evil genius. But as you get older, you get softer. There's a softer version of him.

Doree:                But if you had told me 15 years ago, oh, you're going to be sitting here saying that you like Spencer Pratt, I would be like, what the fuck are you talking about? He's a monster.

Lindsey:              Well, But you didn't know the whole story. You didn't know that that guy, pat, practically produced the hills in terms of, and the whole thing was essentially scripted and behind the scenes he's getting you the drama that you love. And it's like

Doree:                Totally.

Lindsey:              And he's also kind of just like now that reality TV is this cottage industry almost, you have these people in the world of reality TV that are working men, kind of these blue collar people who are just giving us the good stuff and they not billions of dollars. They make good money and they give us what we want, which is drama. And it's like that is charming, I guess. And we didn't have that. And we thought they were all super famous and rich, and it just turns out they weren't.

Doree:                And I'll say, it's not like you get a gold star for staying married, but there is just, there's something about his relationship with Heidi that I'm also sort of like, wow, who expected them to be the ones to stay together

Kate:                    Actually real,

Doree:                Yes. That also kind of blows me away. So I don't know, I didn't mean to turn this into a Spencer Pratt love fest, but I don't know. I was just thinking as we were prepping for this interview, I was just thinking about him. And I know he's been on your show and I dunno,

Lindsey:              He is interesting and I really recommend their podcast. What can I say? It's very good. And especially if you're looking for kind an insidery Hollywood LA thing. They are so good at not explaining anything. They're just like Tim, Chad, Rebecca, and you're like, I don't know who that is, but I'm loving it. And those are all people's agents. I don't know who they are, but they're talking about them. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. We need more podcasts like that. No one should explain anything. Just talk.

Kate:                    Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. What do you think about, what do you make about the ways in which celebrities are now brands and hawking? We talk a lot about self-care and skincare and stuff like that on this podcast, but the emergence of the celebrity skincare line, you can't go into Sephora where most of the lines are now created and curated by unquote celebrities.

Lindsey:              Isn't that like Celebrities were always partnering with brands, always their face, whatever. But now it's like you have to be the creative director. That's like, I think what that is is entrepreneur disease. So it's like, okay, well now that we can't be famous in a mass media way or we're not going to make as much money from the movies or TV shows that we do because all that's been devalued. Unfortunately, we have to be the creative director, the co-founder, the entrepreneur. I think that's also Kardashian influence. Everyone has to own their business and whatever, or the perspective that we are so deeply involved in this and not just the face of the product. This is my blood, sweat and tears or whatever. And I also, I think that people crave authenticity in terms of products now. So it's like they're not going to be fooled by you holding a Blackberry. They need you to have gone to the factory and made the blackberry yourself with your hands or whatever. We're obsessed with that. I guess my thing is always, I'm always shocked when celebrities do products and they're good just because we're so used to our generation is like, these products are bad. They're just shitty. Celebrities don't have taste and they don't really care. It's all a money grab. But now you have, I think it's honestly, it's Rihanna's fault and Selena Gomez too, who made good beauty brands that people really love and that are successful because they're good, not just because it's Rihanna. That to me is actually the most shocking aspect of what this is. Now. There's this standard that they're all hitting, which is they're working with good people, they're making good stuff, and people are buying it because they really like it and then they're making more money off that than anything else. So it's like, of course Rhonna's never going to record another song in her life. Why would she loves makeup fashion?

Kate:                    Yeah, she doesn't need to.

Lindsey:              And people love it. And she's only getting positive feedback from that. She could have a song that no one likes, but it's like the lipstick everyone's dying for, which is like, good. Then do what you're better at. I don't know. I have no idea.

Doree:                Lindsay, in your seven years of doing this show, can you think back to, I don't know, let's pick three of the most iconic who moments?

Lindsey:              No. Oh my God.

Kate:                    I love when you sing that.

Lindsey:              No, I can't even remember what I ate for breakfast.

Kate:                    I feel like Ava a Murray is a classic.

Lindsey:              Well, she's like in your realm. She's really a vintage mommy blogger, nepotism. She's a mix of everything that love.

Kate:                    She's like a real cross section of who.

Lindsey:              And she's shameless too. She's like, I'm blogging. It's like, we don't even do that anymore. She's like, Nope, we do that. She's great. I mean, I think obviously any Rita Ora moment is going to be the first Rita, what's Rita up to, which was really very early in the pod. And then just kind of every big moment of her life that I've had to pay attention to has been iconic for me. What are big moments? I mean, the Waha Christie scandal stands out as something that really was such a delight for us and a real, we always are trying to figure out British tabloid culture because we don't live in it, but there's so much more intense than us and we're obsessed with their deviousness sometimes. And that really was a good example of that. And also a different type of wag culture than we were used to. So learning about that was great. And apparently there's a new documentary too that's supposed to be really good on Hulu about that trial, so maybe we'll get to talk about it even more.

Doree:                Oh, that's fun.

Lindsey:              What other who moments have we enjoyed talking about? I mean, just the different characters that have come up. Who else? I dunno why I'm thinking of the, when Lily, what's his face? Dominic?

Kate:                    Oh my God, Yes.I was just thinking about this.

Lindsey:              What's his name?

Kate:                    The guy from The Wire?

Lindsey:              Yes. And Dominic, whatever the affair. He had an affair with

Doree:                Dominic West.

Lindsey:              Yes. He had an affair with Lily James. And then him and his wife had a press conference outside their castle. And the photos are very, very memorable to me. There was a little sign that was like, stop bothering us. But then they held a press conference and he stood there next to his wife and they took, I don't know, that really was important to me. Anything that's kind of vintagey and it's like right now what's going on with Jada Pinkett Smith is killing me. She's a them, but like, oh my God. Wow.

Doree:                Well, Okay. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to put you on the spot. I enjoy discussing these things. So

Lindsey:              Yeah,

Doree:                What are some of the most hooey moments that thems have done? Because you just brought up Jada, which is now it's like everything

Lindsey:              Because they just do. No, you just do everything. But I mean, Jada Red Table talk is to me a very hooey expression of an a-list. What's my purpose in this world? And it's like people say that I'm really, I'm going to start a Facebook show that no one watches, but is somehow the center of culture. That's amazing.

Kate:                    Amazing.

Doree:                It's truly incredible.

Lindsey:              And we're going to, yeah, I mean there are super

Doree:                Ashton Ashton Mila's apology for writing. The Danny Masterson letter felt very hooey to me.

Lindsey:              I mean, a video that you took of yourself against a wall is very hooey. Putting out media of yourself that is very hooey, I guess.

Doree:                Well, it feels like the new sort of notes app apology Now it's like a video home video,

Lindsey:              A host hostage video of yourself.

Doree:                Yeah, hostage video.

Kate:                    I mean, because what Drew Barrymore also did.

Lindsey:              Oh my God, right. Well, front facing video changed everything. So it's like front facing camera video is like now everything is different or whatever. I mean, we were talking about how truly the number one moment of culture that over the past, let's say five years, that changed everything was the imagined video just in terms of The shift in what celebrities thought we wanted from them. But actually what we want from them was totally misunderstood. And them thinking, this is great and fine, and they'll eat up anything we do, especially in this tragic period. And then us being like, are you kidding me? Right. This is exactly what we don't want. We don't want access to this and we don't want to see your beautiful houses. And I don't care if it feels intimate, like this is not the time or the place and you all are so foolish. And I think that to me is the split between pre where we are now and maybe where we were before, which is this worship of rich people versus now we like fuck rich people. The NEPA baby NEPA's babies thing has been like,

Doree:                yes, yes, yes, yes.

Lindsey:              I think that's kind of the tail of the beginning of the post imagined video discourse.

Doree:                Yes.

Lindsey:              That changed everything, I think truly.

Kate:                    That's really funny. And because it aligns with Covid too. It's such a, it really is like a before and after. Although I will say though, then there's the kind of persistent role of the hey ad videos,

Lindsey:              But those are real estate ads. Everyone sells their house.

Kate:                    That is wild to me that celebrities use the Architectural Digest home video and the popularity of those to showcase their houses that they then go on to sell a year later. It's such a fucking crazy scam.

Doree:                That's been the Architectural Digest scam forever. It was always like,

Kate:                    I think I realized that

Doree:                You got your house in Architectural Digest because you were planning on selling it at some point.

Kate:                    I'm naive,

Lindsey:              but It's just so, we're so desperate to see people's personal lives if they're celebrities. And so it feels like such a purposefully intimate, here's my kitchen, here are my things. Look at all my stuff. But we're all looking for those little details that are weird or interesting or unique or whatever. And then the idea is, this isn't even my house. Surprise. I don't even live here.

Doree:                Well, I think that's why, that's why when we do see glimpses of actual authenticity, when Julia Fox did her apartment tour, you're like,

Kate:                    oh, so good.

Doree:                This is amazing.

Lindsey:              Right. And I think she still lives there. I mean, she might have upgraded because she sold her book.

Doree:                I think she's upgraded.

Lindsey:              Yeah, she upgraded.

Kate:                    She just bought something I think I was reading.

Lindsey:              I'm listening to her book and it is wild. It's so good. She is. I Mean, It truly is amazing. What a life she's led. That's what I'll say.

Doree:                Yes. Yeah.

Kate:                    Yes. I really did not know a lot about her and I actually should listen to that, but that's a good,

Lindsey:              It's her life. She's not old, but what 1% of her life, she's been famous. The rest is her career. Even that long is what I'm saying. So before that, there's an entire lifetime's worth because this girl got started at 13 going crazy of living in Italy, being addicted to heroin, being a dominatrix mom and dad drama. It's just she really has packed it all in before she became famous too. I'm not even at the famous part and I'm still like, how are you doing this? I'm at the heroin part. It's not good.

Doree:                Oh gosh. Wow. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh.

Lindsey:              No, I mean know. She's fine. She came on the other side, right?

Doree:                Yes, yes, yes.

Kate:                    Do you identify as a who or them in the world of podcasts?

Lindsey:              I am a na, which is neither of those things. We are not who's or thems. I mean we are certainly not thems, but maybe in the world of podcasts we're like, but in the real world, we we're nas, I think We're Nas Because who's is like you have this Niche audience. You guys are who's, you have your

Doree:                what?

Kate:                    No, wait.

Lindsey:              You have your community of people that think you're famous, that want to meet you, that care about your life.

Kate:                    But don't you also have that

Doree:                That's you have that.

Lindsey:              So within, within podcast culture world, I would say.

Kate:                    We're whos. Yeah. Within your community, You're a who.

Lindsey:              And so you is what I'm saying. If we're talking about the podcast community

Kate:                    fair,

Lindsey:              I don't know, but there's so many podcasts. I don't know.

Kate:                    That's what I know. I feel like most podcasts are who's now I know.

Lindsey:              And then we're like, I always think about when people are like, what podcasts do you listen to? It's like we're not even cracking the top 100 of that question to a normal person. So maybe we're not even on that list. But that's what's so crazy about media now is we're all making a living and doing our thing and loving it, and we don't need to be in that kind of knowledge gap or it's okay that the random person's not going to know.

Kate:                    Yes. It's always like when you tell somebody what you do, and then I write books. Oh, anything I've ever heard of. And my answer's always like Absolutely not. And that's Who do you I could be, I'm either Nicholas Sparks or there's nobody that I could name.

Lindsey:              No name an author, Judy, Judy Bloom or whatever. No. Do you read books? Are you like, what's your level of reading? That's why I think that's what that question anything or how have I heard it? It's like that question is going by the wayside. No one's going to be asking that anymore. The assumption is going to be No, I hope not.

Kate:                    Yes, yes.

Lindsey:              Always. And should be. Honestly.

Kate:                    Can we talk about Travis Kelsey?

Lindsey:              He's so hot.

Doree:                He's so hot. That was the conclusion we came to as well.

Lindsey:              Well, he's hot. What can I say? He's hot.

Kate:                    He's really hot.

Lindsey:              It's an objective hot too, so I don't feel like very, he's hot in a tom of Finland. I drew a hot guy on a piece of paper. Hot.

Doree:                Totally Cartoonishly hot.

Kate:                    Yes. Like eighties movie boyfriend. Hot.

Lindsey:              Hot in a way that even in our kind of woke culture where we're not really supposed to judge people's looks, you can just say, this is a hot guy. Family feud. We asked a hundred people on the street. If this is a hot guy, it's like, yeah, he is a hot guy.

Kate:                    Would you have considered him a them of the football world? And now he's just

Lindsey:              A, what is that? I mean, is he a them now? I mean, do I know about football? No, but I think from our intel, he would be considered because that'd be funny. He's huge. He's a big deal. When he played in the Super Bowl last year, him and his brother right against each other.

Kate:                    God, I only know him in relation to Taylor Swift. I'm like,

Lindsey:              this is a thing. Him and his brother played in the Super Bowl against each other. And that was the heartwarming story of that Super Bowl, if I recall. And we did mention that. And I remember saying, oh, hot guys. And that was my first knowledge of him. So I really think of the fact that it cracked my consciousness, which means he's got to be a them of football. Right?

Doree:                He was on snl. I feel like that.

Lindsey:              Yes, Pre Taylor.

Doree:                Yes, pre Taylor. And so I feel like that just signifies you have reached a new level of fame when you are asked to be on SNL.

Lindsey:              For sure. And I also think It's like if anything, dating Taylor, obviously you're in the them stratosphere, but it kind of makes you hooey because maybe you were like a them before based on kind of natural charisma and your sports talent. But now you're kind of them based off who you're dating, which is kind of hooey. That is the kind of tabloid ation of your celebrity all of a sudden is like, oh, now he's like,

Doree:                that's a good point.

Lindsey:              How do you date someone who's more famous than you when you're like a super famous football player? It's Taylor Swifter or Meghan Markle. I don't know. There's just not many

Kate:                    Beyonce.

Lindsey:              There's not that many people who are going to be in that level. I guess it's going to be a different category of person than sports too.

Kate:                    Do you think that also represents that he is secure in himself, that he's able to date a more famous woman as a straight man?

Lindsey:              I hope that's what the appeal is in that he's hot, successful, confident, charismatic. She's also those things. And that's what I hope for her, is the difference between the men that maybe she dated that were not that way, and this man who seems really confident in himself and that, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't know anything about Joe Alwin. I don't think anyone knows anything about Joe Alwin, but it definitely feels like she does not want to be out of the spotlight. And maybe she found somebody who also enjoys the glamor of it all.

Kate:                    Yes. And quite frankly, we enjoy the glamor.

Lindsey:              I Mean, it's endless. Endless.

Kate:                    It's nonstop. And you know what I do think? This is when we talk about the self-care aspect of celebrity culture is they are providing a service and you are providing a service.

Lindsey:              I mean, other peoples lives

Kate:                    Who seek it lives.

Lindsey:              If you don't have drama in your life, which that's awesome, and props to you and that rules, and we should all strive to be drama free, then you have to find your drama elsewhere. And that's what celebrities give us, I guess. Commonality, drama, whatever. Especially because our reality shows are not real. We need to have that or something, common language or whatever.

Kate:                    So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back. Who are some who's that? You have your eye on Underrated, who's like up and comers, up and comers.

Lindsey:              I mean, who's that? Make me laugh?

Kate:                    Sure.

Lindsey:              Millie Bobby Brown makes me laugh. I love her. My God. What a personality. Austin Butler makes me laugh constantly. He's so funny. I love people who take themselves that seriously in acting. Kiki Palmer is basically a them, but I really stand her and she's amazing.

Kate:                    She is.

Lindsey:              I want her to be broadly so successful. And so I really love her. Who else do I love? I mean, who are who's, who do we talk about? We Anyone who's funny or weird or expected, obviously I think Sophie Turner is great. Who right now, she feels like she could say anything at any time. That's fun. Keeps you on the edge of your seat. She was so funny before this happened and now it's like good luck. It's just who knows what she's going to say.

Kate:                    Yeah.

Lindsey:              Who else? Anyone who you can tell kind of has a sense of humor or Spencer Pratt is a good example. It's like someone who you kind of think knows, really does know what's going on and has a good self-awareness is always going to be a good Who. But then those are kind of the who's that are not as who we because they're too aware of what the perception is.

Doree:                Yes, yes.

Lindsey:              Like Charlie Xcx. I love her so much. I think she's so talented, but I'm like, you know, you're too smart. You know what I mean? To be right.

Doree:                She knows the score.

Lindsey:              You're too smart. I don't know. I think there's a thin line between me being like, I stand this person and love their work versus, I don't really stand them, but I think they're a great who and I will click on everything, every headline about them. So That's a growing.

Kate:                    Yeah. Millie Bobby Brown really has that energy. I wish she,

Lindsey:              she's only 19. She's given us so much. What's to come

Kate:                    Only 19. Already engaged to a Bon Jovi. It's like

Lindsey:              Already wrote a fake book.

Kate:                    She knows. Oh my God. The fake books, the celebrities writing fake books is, I guess that's just another iteration of the skincare line,

Lindsey:              I guess. But it's also like write a book. I dunno. Don't tell me about How do I know that? It's so fake. It's so unbelievable. It's like a,

Doree:                What was Heidi Montague's famous quote? Congrats to anyone who's written a book.

Lindsey:              She meant it. She's right. It's so hard to write a book.

Kate:                    It's really hard to write a book. The idea that just all these celebrities are suddenly knocking 'em out is hilarious to me. It's just not real.

Lindsey:              A fiction but novel. Get out of here. I dunno. I just think she's so funny. Millie Bobby Brown. I can't wait for what's to come. More books.

Kate:                    Oh God.

Lindsey:              Oh, she has a skincare line or something? She has some.

Kate:                    She does.

Lindsey:              Yeah.

Kate:                    What?

Lindsey:              Yeah, I think it's called Flower. Oh my God. The fact that I know that.

Kate:                    Wait, no, wait. That's Drew Barrymore's line. Oh no, I got, sorry. Wait, but maybe they both have lines.

Lindsey:              Hold on. Because

Doree:                I thought that was Drew Barry Moore's production company.

Lindsey:              Florence.

Kate:                    Florence.

Lindsey:              Florence.

Kate:                    No. Flower Beauty is Drew Barrymores Walmart Beauty Line.

Lindsey:              Right. Okay. I knew she had something. I knew she wasn't

Kate:                    Florence. Florence by Millie By Mills, Florence by Mills.

Lindsey:              Great. Never going to buy that thing, but support her endlessly.

Kate:                    And they're always clean and natural. That's the other thing that I can't fucking get over. Every one of these celebrity beauty lines, they always are clean and natural.

Lindsey:              Which means what? Nothing.

Doree:                I think they're all probably white labeled by the same company.

Lindsey:              Oh, for sure. That's what's so fascinating, where it's like you have your beauty labels that are clearly not, and then you have the ones that clearly are, and we're really starting to, the line is getting blurred, I think.

Doree:                Yes, totally.

Lindsey:              Because the language is all the same in the way that they talk about their work with these lines. Haley Bieber launching a lip gloss as big as Rihanna, launching an entire line of foundation. There's clearly a difference there in terms of effort and what the product is. But it's the same energy. It's the same pullout or a pushout, whatever it's called out, whatever it is. Publicity.

Doree:                What do you think of all these families that are trying to be the next Kardashians, like the d'emilios and the alex Earl family

Lindsey:              Anyone's parents who give a shit about this? It's the whole thing is have you seen the d'Emilio show ever? You're saying it, but have you seen it?

Kate:                    They're so boring. I can't handle it.

Doree:                No, because I fall asleep as I'm selecting. I mean, it's so boring.

Lindsey:              Okay. But it's fascinating. The show is about how one d'Emilio kid was like, I'm the singer. And the other one was like, I'm the dancer. And then the dancer was like, what if I sang? And then it was like, oh my God.

Kate:                    Wait, that's really the,

Lindsey:              yeah, that was season two. I mean of,

Kate:                    Charlie wants to be a singer.

Lindsey:              She did, but she was not that good at it. And then Charlie Demilio and her mom went on Dancing with the Stars and the dad spiraled. He all of a sudden was like, well, what do I do now? And he kind of cheated, which is what this season's about. Okay. So maybe it is a good show. I don't know.

Kate:                    He cheated on the mom,

Lindsey:              Basically, And then they stayed together.

Kate:                    Maybe I watch this.

Lindsey:              Yeah, it completely tears apart your family is what I'm saying. I hope it's worth it.

Kate:                    Yeah. I mean, this is actually, I would love your thoughts on this. Fame is so destructive that it shocks me the ways in which we keep valuing it and encouraging people to chase. I mean, you have all these influencers talking about how detrimental all their of kind of fame and social media is to their mental health.

Lindsey:              I mean, It's crazy to me that anybody would go on Housewives at this point. The success rate of lives on that show is not good. And I mean, success, marriage,

Doree:                success rate of lives,

Lindsey:              Not like people are dying. I mean, just more they get divorced, they're robbed. It's just such, it doesn't seem worth it. I don't know. I mean, it really speaks to the fact that attention is so addictive that even though you have the evidence in front of you, everything else becoming a mess, it doesn't matter. But to kind of a person who's never going to be asked to be on Housewives, it is hard to look at that stuff and be clearly the people going on these shows are, there's something different in their brains than mine to begin with because I would never go on this show because I've seen the results and why would I want this for my life or whatever. Also, none of these housewives are even, a lot of 'em aren't even married. So it's like, I guess if you go on and you're not married, you're not going to get divorced. You might meet someone, I dunno. And then you get divorced from them.

Kate:                    I mean, Jenna Lyons, and I know plenty of articles have been written about why and what was she thinking and what is she doing now? But that was such an interesting choice for her to make to go on Housewives. And I feel like it kind of paid off in her favor

Lindsey:              Because she didn't go on with a husband and she went on with a different prerogative. It's like, have you seen my fake lashes? You couldn't buy them. It's like Product first. And then it's also what is Housewives at all. It's not what it originally was. Might as well, just

Kate:                    The real existential question.

Lindsey:              And it's funny because Jenna Lyons had a reality show before Housewives that was boring and bad. And so it's like she was reframed to be interesting or something. I don't know. She wasn't interesting the last time. She's on reality tv.

Doree:                She's interesting in the context of Housewives.

Lindsey:              Right, Exactly. I mean, the producers produced her. She was written interesting because she's not naturally that interesting.

Doree:                She herself alone is not that interesting. But you throw her in with some housewives and you can create some storylines.

Lindsey:              Yeah, it's fascinating. Her show was borning.

Doree:                Reality TV producers

Lindsey:              I mean, they're really masters of their craft and they do a ton of work because these people aren't naturally dramatic or interesting sometimes.

Doree:                Right. Lindsay, besides Housewives, what else are you watching on tv?

Lindsey:              I'm watching. The TV is a little right now for good reason. What am I watching? I'm trying to watch more movies, but what I'm watching on TV right now is my favorite, least favorite show. The morning show, which is appointment viewing. I don't know if you've engaged in this. It is. I don't watch it so bad. It's incredible. They spend millions of dollars per episode. It's just incredibly good. I cannot recommend it enough. It's really the downfall of it really also represents a downfall of movie star culture because you have two of our biggest movie stars in this TV show that no one watches and is bad.

Doree:                It's a very hooey move.

Lindsey:              So hooey to be on TV

Doree:                For them to make this show.

Lindsey:              I mean, it's just one awful drama filled soap opera scene after the next. Just incredible. And I just started last night, one of my favorite shows that is also Trash, but is a zombie version of itself. It moved from HBO to cw, which is F Boy Island Incredible show

Doree:                hosted By Nikki Glaser,

Lindsey:              Who is so funny on it, just truly peak Nikki Glaser.

Kate:                    She's funny.

Lindsey:              It's great. It's like a parody of a reality dating show, but also very good. I love that show. And then the other show that I really like, because this is surprising, but I'm really interested in, I love documentaries. And documentaries are the only way that I get interested in sports. So a sports documentary is really something that is the center of all my interests. So I'm really into welcome to Reham, which is the FX show about the soccer team, football team and

Kate:                    Ryan Reynolds.

Lindsey:              It's an amazing tool to get you interested in something that you normally wouldn't be. And that's what I think the good documentaries are all about. It's manipulative, but it's very good.

Kate:                    Did you watch the Supermodels?

Lindsey:              I didn't. I didn't. Is it good?

Kate:                    It is good. And it's like a great kind of who to them To who? Analysis of culture.

Lindsey:              I should watch it

Kate:                    from the before times. I thought I enjoyed it, but that's like my peak childhood or the early nineties supermodels.

Lindsey:              Yeah. I watched Beckham, which I also enjoyed so much. Shockingly,

Doree:                I need to watch that. I need to watch that.

Lindsey:              It's like Fisher Stevens is the director. He's in a lot of it as this voice of God. But it's very interesting the way that he chooses to engage with them. I was surprised at how well it was done because all of our celebrity documentaries are now produced by celebrities, so they're not revealing or intriguing or anything. So you really have to be careful because you'll watch something and you'll be like, that was literally just a celebrity interview, not a documentary.

Doree:                Right.

Lindsey:              But Beckham I thought was well done and a little bit. It did go there a little bit.

Kate:                    Well, Lindsay, we should let you go. We try and often forget to ask our guests about their current skincare routine, but do you have any skincare routine products that you want to share? Have you ever tried any celebrity skincare products?

Lindsey:              Yeah, I tried House Labs. Lady Gaga's line. Pretty good,

Kate:                    which is supposed to be good actually, right?

Lindsey:              Yeah. I love her. So I tried her skincare line. I've tried Rare Beauty, fine, good. Some lip gloss thing was good. I don't know. What is my skin? I don't know. I'm like any normal mid thirties person. I'm like, retinol. And I heard about this fucking thing and I go get a facial once a year and they tell me what to do and I don't do it. And that's very me. I do what I really, really am very worried about is getting too tan because I go to the beach a lot and I'm still tan from, I'm still too tan. And I have very big fears about becoming tan mom. I kept saying all summer, because everyone, every time anyone saw me, they'd be like, oh my God, you're so tan. And I'm like, wait, am I too tan? Am I becoming the tan woman?

Kate:                    Where everybody's like, Lindsay's really into being tan.

Lindsey:              I think that's what. I mean. Luckily, I think what's living in New York is so great is that I tan in this summer and then I have all winter two D tan. And I think that's the balance. It really represents the balance in my life that I need. But I am worried when people say, you look so tan. As I get older, it's going to become like the tan is not going to go away. It's just going to, I'm going to be this tan mom tan. Not actual mom, but tan mom. You remember tan mom,

Kate:                    Right, but tan mom. Yes, yes. Oh yes.

Lindsey:              So I'm very interested in sunscreen, and I'll buy any sunscreen that anyone ever talks about as being good. So I'll buy, I buy TikTok sunscreen from Korea. I buy that sunscreen. I'll buy Supergoop when it's on sale. I just buy any sunscreen that everyone's like, we're talking about this sunscreen. I'm buying it a hundred percent. No problem. That's my self-care. So scared of being tan.

Kate:                    I love it. I love it.

Lindsey:              Too tan.

Kate:                    Well, Lindsay, thank you so much. So, so glad to have you on the podcast. This has been just the best.

Lindsey:              Thanks for having me.

Doree:                Well, Kate. Lindsay was just as delightful as I thought she was going to be. I have to say

Kate:                    I love Lindsay. I wish she still lived in Los Angeles, but

Doree:                I know she was here for a brief moment, and then she went back to New York

Kate:                    And that's fine. We are okay with it. We honor it. I will say that I would say she is an expert about celebrity culture.

Doree:                Yes, For sure.

Kate:                    She can take that moniker and run with it.

Doree:                Yes, yes, yes.

Kate:                    Doree, how is it going? Not trying not to be consumed with dread every second of the day. That was your intention last week was

Doree:                it was.

Kate:                    It's a really challenging intention.

Doree:                It is a challenging intention. I mean, it's going okay. Like I mentioned at the top of the show, I did have some moments this morning where I was like, I'm just happy to be outside and playing tennis, which is something that I really love. And so that was a moment where I was able to kind of take myself out of the existential dread. Sundays are tough for me for some reason, I think just because, I don't know, they just seem long. And I definitely get in my head on Sundays. So Sundays are tough. But yeah, I don't know. And that kind of leads into my intention for this week, which is I need to figure out some work stuff that I have this ongoing big project that I either need to really double down on and focus on, or I need to set it aside. And it's all getting colored by the existential dread and money stuff, and I just don't know what to do. So I'm going to try to figure that out this week.

Kate:                    Okay. Keep us posted. I'm here if you want to talk it out.

Doree:                Thank you, Kate. Appreciate you. What about you?

Kate:                    Okay, well, I am.

Doree:                Did you set up your walking pad?

Kate:                    I love my walking pad. I set it up. I walk while I edit episodes of this podcast.

Doree:                Amazing.

Kate:                    And it's really nice. I'm trying to stand more. I just feel like sitting and staring at my computer for 10 hours a day hasn't really been great for my back. So I'm liking my walking pad. I'm going to give it a couple more weeks before I link out and recommend it. I just want to make sure that I actually really like it and I'm using it. But I will share

Doree:                Because the first one you got ended up being a dud, right?

Kate:                    Oh my goodness. It was such a dud. It broke and it was increasing the speed without me doing anything, which is really dangerous.

Doree:                That is terrifying.

Kate:                    It was really scary. I mean, I sprained my ankle and it's still not healed. And so I really am trying not to have any sort of fall injuries. And I was able to get a refund on that item, and then I bought a different one. So we'll see how that goes. But I am cautiously optimistic with the old walking pad.

Doree:                Okay. Well, I'm excited for you. What about this week? What's going on?

Kate:                    Okay, this week I returned to an old favorite Doree. So my husband was out of town for work for a while, and when he is not here, I sleep with my phone next to my bed because that makes me feel more safe. Maybe it's a false sense of safety, I don't know, but whatever. That's what I do. But he's back, Doree. And last night I put the phone in the kitchen and I said, this is where you're sleeping. So I know if you've been listening to this podcast for a long time, you're like, Kate, seriously, this again? But my answer is yes. This is going to be a lifelong journey for me. Now. I am not really on Instagram anymore. And TikTok, I have been doing a lot of work on myself in terms of social media and my mental health. However, it doesn't mean I'm spending less time on my phone. I'm just now playing games on my phone. So I'm trying to get that little puppy out of the bedroom and maybe just read or fall asleep. Last night I put it in the kitchen and I was like, I'll read for a while. And instead I was zonked out. So the phone just gets in the way of a lot of stuff. So I'm back at square one. I realize this is old hat, but look, I don't know. It's a journey. I'm back.

Doree:                Okay, well, I Look forward to seeing where this version of the journey takes you.

Kate:                    I'll keep you posted. I'll let you know next week how it's going.

Doree:                Please do. Great. I look forward to that. In the meantime, Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone for listening.