Episode 274: Why Can’t We Be Friends? with Lane Moore
Let’s talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly side of friendships as an adult. Kate and Doree welcome writer, actor, comedian, and musician Lane Moore on the pod to chat about Lane’s new book about adult friendship, You Will Find Your People. They cover everything from where we get off thinking that friendships don’t require effort and work, to the significance and the effects of attachment styles in friendships.
Mentioned in this Episode
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts.
Doree: No. We're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,
Kate: And today we're talking about attachment styles.
Doree: Oh yeah.
Kate: I'm curious. So we are going to share our interview with Lane Moore, who is amazing. She's a comedian, award-winning writer, an actor, a musician, and she has this really interesting new book out about friendship, but she talks about attachment styles in it. And it intrigued me because I don't think I really know what my attachment style is.
Doree: You might just have a secure attachment style.
Kate: I might, I, of course then started looking at all the online tests and I was like, maybe I need to look into this. I think it's probably somewhere in the secure slash anxious realm, but I don't think I've ever given it much thought in terms of how that might impact not just myself, but my relationships and friendships. And I just thought it was really interesting because you do know a lot about this. You Doree Shafrir and have thought a lot about it.
Doree: Yeah, I mean, I think because I had some revelations in the last couple of years about attachment style and not just how related to romantic relationships, but also to friendships. And so it was just like eyeopening for me.
Kate: You ever, this is is unrelated, but just something I've been thinking about recently. Have you ever had the thing where on paper you and another person should be best friends who totally connect yet?
Doree: Yes. And Lane talks about this in her book.
Kate: Yes. Yes. And you can't quite make it figure out why it doesn't work and you don't connect with them.
Doree: Yeah. it's funny, there are also people who I consider friends who when it's just us, I almost feel like we don't have that much to talk about.
Kate: I know that feeling too. Which maybe isn't bad. Maybe that's a specific kind of friendship.
Doree: Yeah, totally. But yes, we should be friends on paper. Friends are always interesting because it's like, what about this just didn't click?
Kate: Yes. I have some people who I cannot in person we've met and someone is like, oh, you guys are going to be the best of friends. And then we meet and we're like, I don't know what it is. But we don't connect. We even might not even each other we're just not happening for us. And I yet, I don't know why. Yeah, it's okay. But I think as for me, the way my brain works especially is in people pleaser brain of desperately wanting everybody to like me that when I get the feeling that someone, not they, I've done anything wrong necessarily, we just aren't compatible. It throws me.
Doree: Yeah. It's a funny thing. I think also as we get older, friendships change and our approaches to friendships change. I mean, I have friends who have said, I, I'm closed my, I have no room in my life for more friends. My friendship list is full. And on the one hand I get it, I get it. Kind of how I was like, I cannot pick up pickleball because, my, I'm, I'm full up on hobbies.
Kate: Yes. That's a great point.
Doree: It's not that I wouldn't enjoy it, it's that I just, and same thing with friends. It's like, oh, not that I wouldn't enjoy being friends with you, but I don't know that I have the time or the energy to put the work in to become close with a new person is an interesting way to think about it as someone who enjoys making friends. And to be clear, I did not say that I am done making friends. This is just something that a friend of mine said that made me think about it.
Kate: Yeah, no, I think that's an interesting point.
Doree: So I don't know. And we're all in different seasons of life and sometimes you're in a season of life that a potential friend is not in and there's a lot that needs to align. I, I think Lane Talks mentions this in her book too, that if you went to college looking back, that was the easiest time in your life to make friends.
Kate: You're just thrown into a place in many college experiences with just people your age in a contained environment.
Doree: Yes, Exactly. And then as you get older, it does get harder. So I don't know, it's, it's all very interesting. And it's also interesting, I was talking about this with another friend of mine about, I was talking about another friend of mine with a different friend, and I was saying, I still really love this person and have known this person for a long time and feel very, I feel very connected to this person, but I feel like our friendship has not evolved. And I don't know that I consider her a good friend to me. And that was the sort of interesting revelation and just thinking about the nature of how friendships grow and change. And sometimes you and a friend kind of grow in the same way and then other times you don't. And what do you with that?
Kate: Yeah, I have been hard on myself lately because I feel like I have spent a lot of time grieving some friendships that ended and that don't feel resolved to me. And they just, it was a ghosty end of the friendship. And I've spent a lot of time, I spend a lot of time kind of grieving it and I've just been not hard on myself, but I'm kind of want to nudge myself to begin to let it go because I do think it's harder for me to accept that friendships have lifespans. I think with romantic relationships intellectually, I understand most of the time they have a certain timeframe and then you break up and everybody knows that's like, right. And then you don't. That's it. But friendships, we don't talk about them in the same way. And I think there is truth to the fact that some friendships are short, some are long, some are only in your life for this certain period. And they were great. You can appreciate them even though they've ended. And I am really struggling with that. With a few ended friendships that kind of just ended. They just kind of died like a plant that didn't get watered, I guess.
Doree: Yeah. Well, and something else, and we talk about this in our interview with Lane, but something else that I really appreciated that she talks about in her book, and I think the other people we've talked on the podcast who have written books about friendship also really emphasize this, which is like you do have to put work into your friendships.
Kate: Definitely.
Doree: And it has to be from both sides de and that it's a misconception that friendships can just coast along and have everything be easy, which I think a lot of us just sort of assumed.
Kate: Yes. I didn't realize that you had to put effort into French. I think I've always tried to do that without thinking about it, but I had never thought about it in again the same way as you work on a romantic relationship.
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: It's really interesting. I know we talked about this a ton on the podcast, and yet it continues to fascinate me because also these friendships, some of them are going to be with us and they're lifelong and others, and also those don't necessarily have more value over a friendship that's short lived. I don't know, I just think it's a lot more to be thought about when it comes to friendships and I am here for it.
Doree: Same.
Kate: And also I'm grateful for our friendship.
Doree: Me too.
Kate: Again, it's two people. We as a formed friendships in our thirties, formed our friendship in our thirties.
Doree: And I think I've said this to you before, but I'm glad that we didn't become friends till our thirties because
Kate: I mean, well, you posted something in our discord and I was like, we would've never been friends. I was like some, well, we had different, some band,
Doree: we had different tastes.
Kate: We were in different, we would've been in different circles in different circle and would've been circles. That girl doesn't want to go to jam band festivals with me and I don't want to know her. I would've judged you just by probably what you were into
Doree: Yeah, and I would've judged you
Kate: And vice versa. Because yeah, you were talking about the new pornographers and I had literally never heard one of their songs.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, look, we swam in different pools,
Kate: But what Doreee, I feel like as I get older, that shit matters so much less to me. I don't give a shit
Doree: Yes, a thousand percent. Although it is nice to share experiences with your friends.
Kate: That is true.
Doree: But yes, I agree. It does not have to be everything. You don't have to have all of the same tastes and interests at all. I also just meant in terms of I think my capacity to be a good friend I think has expanded. And I've said, I've also said this to you before that I think you are really good model of how to be a good friend.
Kate: Oh, that's so nice. Well, you know what? And my mom, and I'm, I've probably said this to you before, my mom had extremely strong friendships and really modeled it. And her friends and her friends also modeled it. And some of them were lifelong friends that she had had for decades. Some of them she made as when I was a bit more aware of the fact that she was making new friends and she was really great at it. So I grew up at an advantage of seeing somebody.
Doree: Oh, I love that.
Kate: She was so good at it. And her friends are still in touch with me, even though my mom's been dead for almost two decades at this one, I don't know, 15 years now. So yeah, she found some real good eggs, but I think she also was one herself. But I, that's part of it, right? That's so much of it is learning from what we see or not learning.
Doree: Well, Kate, on that note, should we introduce Lane?
Kate: Oh man, y'all are in for a treat. So as mentioned, lane is an award-winning writer, actor, comedian, musician. Look, the New York Times called her ingenious. So there you go. She's the host of, I thought it was just me, a podcast on Patreon and her first book, how To Be Alone If You Want To. And even If You Don't, was praised as one of the best books of the years by the aforementioned New York Times, New York magazine and PR a bajillion other places. Her writing has appeared everywhere. You want to read stuff? The Onion, new Yorker, Washington Post. She's the host of the comedy show, Tinder Live, which has run all over the world and she's got an amazing new book out called You Will Find Your People.
Doree: Before we get to Lane, let's just remind everyone that you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. Follow us on Instagram @Forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/Forever35. Our favorite products are at Shopmy.us/Forever35. We have a newsletter forever35podcast.com/newsletter and you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com and we will be right back with Lane.
Kate: Lane. Welcome to Forever35. This, I have to say is exciting because you are someone in my brain, I consider an internet friend, a person like an internet acquaintance.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: A person I followed for a decade or more.
Lane: Yeah. It's really wild to have that awareness of another person where you're just like, oh yeah, I know them. I'm present them. And then you're just like, I may have never seen their face. No, we may have never shared the same air. And I'm just like, yeah, we're friends. Zoom pens for a long time. I know them. And you're not even being, it's so funny because you're not even being pretending that someone that you don't do. It's just through the internet. It's not even you're name dropping, but youre just like, yeah, I know them. We follow each other on the internet for some time.
Kate: Well, we always kick off every interview asking our guests about a self-care practice they have in their life, which as we've now established five years of doing this podcast can really be anything and we welcome anything and everything. So Lane, if you don't mind sharing, what is one thing you do as self-care?
Lane: Oh my goodness. So there's things I do and then there's things I try to do.
Kate: We hear you.
Lane: I feel like, yeah, I feel my self-care is honestly sometimes my myself. It varies. And I think that that's why my answer is as such. Cause I think there's a type of person, God bless, able to be like, well, every morning I do the following five things and I do them without fail and it's so good. And I always do, and I'm not her. I don't relate to her. I'm making it up as I go. But one thing that I do a lot of is just even self-talk stuff. My brain will go off on the negative and my inner voice is very chatty. And just even having moments where I'm just like, Hey, hey, hey, we're not going to do that. That's really mean. That's really, really why are we talking to ourselves? What's going on? And having these little interventions and it feels so soothing to do. And it's one of those things that I'm sure some people hear that and they're like, that's cheesy. And I'm like, or that's how a lot of people have to get through life. I know it sounds cheesy, but it really is helpful to just cause you have to live in your own head. And I think just taking those moments to be like, Hey, what's going on? Why are we doing this? What are you worried about? Let's take a second. You're really, really stressed out why? And being that for myself, you always kind of wish another person could see that you're like that and jump in and do an intervention. But there's not always someone there. And not everybody can tell I'm very good at hiding that I have an asshole in my brain telling me a bunch of mean things no one would know. So I think that's a big self-care thing I do is to just be like, oh, hey, we're not going to keep doing this. This is not good for you. I can't watch you do this.
Kate: I love that. You mentioned that you have an asshole in your brain and you essentially mask it. Well, because I, I relate to that very deeply, and I don't know if you've ever felt this way, but do you feel like you have to sometimes convince other people, friends in your life, whoever, that things are more challenging for you than they appear? The masking is a big coping mechanism. I think a lot of us, Doree, I don't know if you relate to it too totally. But something a lot of us have gotten very good at.
Lane: Huge. And look, the problem is, and I've been hearing this for most of my life, which is I have a feeling that if anything was really wrong with you, no would know about it. And I was like, you're right. I don't want people to be right about that, but they're right about that. And it's even when I think I'm letting people know, I'm like, oh, I'm going to say this and they're going to know that that means I could really use some backup and then no one does anything. And I'm like, oh, well, okay. And it's so hard when you're to break down the walls of being the strong friend, being the resilient friend. I talk about it so much online because it's real. Sometimes I see people's tweets and there's a certain accounts where you're just like, oh, you just read a bunch of Reddit threads and you almost put it in a blender and you knew this would work and you knew it'd get retweet. I wish I knew how to do that. Mine are all just like, no, I'm literally struggling with this all of the time. And then I'm always shocked when people are me too. And I'm like, okay, because you do feel like it's just you.
Doree: Well, it's basically the name of your podcast on Patreon, right?
Lane: Yeah, I know. Yes. Yeah. And I mean it's cause it's really true. I have to fight it all the time. Every single time someone on the internet is just like, oh my God, we're such twins. And I'm like, how could that be? I don't know when my brain will get to the point where I'm just like, it's okay to ask for help. Your thoughts are not so weird. Your struggles are not so strange. And when will I get to the point where my friends see that I might be capable, but I don't. I need help. It's a very strange thing where you're like, yes, I can do all these things on my own whilst being very sad or you could help me. I would love that. I want to be a lazy, spoiled bitch. So much. Everything is leading up to that for me.
Doree: Well, let's talk about your new book. You will find Your people How to make meaningful friendships as an adult.
Lane: Yeah.
Doree: It felt like a kind of unconventional book about friendship, partly because you admit that you don't have the friends you wish you did. And so what made you want to write this book? And also where are you with regards to friends now? Did writing this book Yeah, help you make more friends?
Lane: Yeah. I mean, I guess think it's an unconventional book about friendship in a really good way because I personally do not like books about friendship that are just as someone has always had perfect friends. Let me tell you how it's done. Ladies, fuck off. I don't want to hear from you. I don't want to hear from somebody who's had perfect friends since they were six. I don't give a shit about what you have to say. If you've never struggled with something, you can't give me advice just how I feel. I just don't want to read a, it's the same thing with, you read these finance books and they're like, I was born to massive generational wealth. I'm really good with money. And you're like, what? No. You're like, what? That's bullshit. So for me, I wanted to write a book about something that I have struggled with my whole life, which is finding these friends that I saw on TV that I saw in movies and not finding it living up to what I saw in movies, what I thought that our friends would look like as an adult. And so it's not that I don't have really lovely friends, it's just that, and I have found out this is a lot of people where it's just not what I thought it would be. And the things that were reflected in media for me were like, no friends ever broke up. They always knew what you needed and immediately gave it to you. Everybody had some kind of huge disposable incomes where if you dropped your hairbrush, they were like, girl, we're going to Maui. I don't have those friends. What the fuck? Where are those friends? And even I saw somebody two months ago post on social media, they're like, oh my God, I was working on something and my friend sent me this $5,000 gift. What you grateful for? And I was like, what? I'm, I'm going to die. I was, I don't have friends sending me 5,000, $10,000 presents. What's wrong with me? And that this kind of disconnect where I had people who cared about me. I had people who I cared about, I had people I enjoyed spending time with, but I didn't see them as often as I wanted. I didn't know who my emergency contact would be, just all these gaps in what it's supposed to look like. And so I really wanted to write a book about that. So it's not, I have no friends here's how to have them. It's like, you know what? I've had a lot of beautiful friendships and a lot of really horrible friendships and I've had a lot of painful breakups and a lot of friendships that I thought were going to end that actually deepened. And just all the things that I have learned from kind of bumping up against all of these walls but never giving up. And because I so deeply want that connection. And there was so much that I realized that I had learned from a lot of times I think the people who have, that's how you get that wisdom is from floundering and being treated like shit a lot and not setting boundaries a lot and being like, why aren't they knowing what my boundaries are so I don't have to set them all of these things that a lot of us do. And so I wanted to write this book because it was interesting too that the time I started writing, you Will Find Your People. It was a funny journey because when I started writing it, I was like, oh my God, I've done it finally. I have the best friends. I've done it. Oh my God, my friends are so good. As I started writing the book and I'm writing this advice for others, I was like, oh no, this description of a toxic friend is this friend. Oh no. I had a friend who had always been so wonderful to me, and then she did something kind of crappy and I talked to her about it and I was like, let's work through. I just want to talk about this is how it made me feel. And she totally pulled away and went into her little cave, very avoidant. And I was like, okay, cool. So you can lose even your best friends because they just needed some time. And that time might be a year. It was really interesting because my experience with my friends over the course of writing the book was what I talk about in the book where even when you get to the point where you're like, oh my God, my friends are so good now, that can change so easily. We didn't see that in media ever. It was just like, these are your friends from eight to 85, and that's just not the reality for so many of us. And so it is this work you have to keep doing no matter how good you get at it.
Kate: I loved the example you gave of an episode of The New Girl when Schmitz doesn't know what he likes. And so they all buy him a luxury chair. And then one of the characters, I don't know, we always just do this. It's really weird. It made me laugh so hard because it's such a good point that we see such kind of these kind of perfect friendships modeled in media. I wanted to just get your thoughts on how we now see that in Influencers, my kids now they're stereotypical tweens who watch YouTube families and YouTube friendships. And I look at follow influencers and look at their friendships on TikTok, but we're still kind of seeing the same thing as we saw in these fictionalized Yeah. Friendships, right?
Lane: Yeah, absolutely.
Kate: It feels very similar.
Lane: Well, and also when somebody is, despite, no matter how good intent, how well intentioned you are, if your whole thing online is me and my best friend, some of that is going to become a little bit, I want to be what people want to see. Yeah. It's just, it can't not, at a certain point, you're going to be playing a heightened version of that you're kind of playing. And also, even if that friendship online starts off really great, it's going to hit some weird bumpy stuff and you're not going to want to put that on your YouTube page cause that's not aspirational. So it's like we are seeing the same stuff where a lot of these TV writers, they didn't want to put that, they're not going to put Rachel and Monica or whatever getting into a fight that lasts for months or there's an undercurrent of resentment and they're not going to do that because no one wants to watch that. So it does become this kind of cycle of like, oh, people don't want to see that then. So nobody shows it. And so then everybody at home going through that is like, oh, something's wrong with me.
Kate: Yeah, Where is that?
Lane: Right? Yeah. And I think it's really hard, and I think that was a lot of this book too, was making peace with a lot of what I had grown up being like, that's what I want. That's what I'm going to have. Can't wait. And then being like, oh, that didn't happen like that yet. And kind of making peace with the space in between and finding some solace in like, oh, it might not look like this friendship that I really loved watching or this friendship I see on tv. But there are moments in so many of my friendships where I'm like, Ugh, this is what I wanted as a kid. It might not look exactly the same. Cause these are fictional things. Even the stuff you see on YouTube that's about real people, again, it's going to be a little bit bit not the whole story, I'll say,
Kate: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, none of us are giving the whole story, even if we're not influencers. I think it's almost impossible to give your whole self in that way.
Lane: No. And then you also feel like, yeah, also this is something that I grapple with where I'm like, oh, can I say that this great thing is happening, but also this really hard thing is happening? Do I get to say that? Do I get to be multiple things? So I think that is something that maybe a lot of us kind of struggle with online. And I think also the other thing is too, a lot of the friendships that we're seeing on Instagram and stuff like that, I know for a fact it becomes this keeping up with the Joneses. I see friends of mine fussy photos, and they're me and the girls, and I'm like, you hate eight of those girls. I know you do. That one was a dick to you last week. You've always been weird with her. She's an asshole. But I don't fault them for that because again, there is this pressure to appear. You have the perfect friend. So it does feel scary. It did feel scary to write about, to feel like you're raising your hand in a room full of people who are like, I have the best friends. Yeah, me too. We did totally same. And you're like, I, I'm actually kind of struggling with that. And I know enough to know now that everyone in that room when they hear that is probably going to, if they're fairly in touch with themselves, is probably going to sigh a sigh of relief. Like, oh, can we all stop pretending? It's always perfect. But in your head you're like, oh my God, what if everyone in this room is why that's so weird? I don't at all. There's still that idea.
Kate: Okay. Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: Can we talk about, and you obviously talk about this a lot in the book, but how to show up for your friends, and I guess this is big picture, this is kind of just how to be a good friend and what you've learned about being a good friend.
Lane: Yeah, I mean, I think I talk a lot about love languages and attachment styles and things like that in here, because so often we tend to do for our friends what we would want and not necessarily what they would want. And so figuring that out with each other. So much of what gets lost in friendship is that we treat friendship. It's an afterthought. The thing that matters most is your romantic relationship, your friendships or whatever. No, that's complete garbage. We have to get to know our friends and be like, oh, what makes you feel loved? I did a morning show and the host was the host. Like, I hate getting flowers. When somebody sends me flowers, I'm so mad. And I'm like, send them to me. I don't hate who hate getting flowers, but some people do love's, right? I love flowers Send with Truck. But again, knowing these things about your friend, her friend literally didn't know that she hated getting flowers or she was sending her flowers. That's how she sent love. And I have that happen sometimes with my friends where I see that they think this is how I want them to show up for me. And it's so hard to be like, this doesn't do anything for me at all. Cause, but we have to have those conversations because hopefully in your ideal friendship, those things are matching up and you're able to meet each other halfway, I think is what it is too. Because there's some things that someone might need from me that I can't give that that's just not, that doesn't feel comfortable for me to give. But those are the conversations we should be having. So I think a lot of it is really just, I think a lot of people could just be a little more mindful. And again, not that it's like, oh, everybody's too selfish. No, that our culture really has told us that we shouldn't have to put that much into our friendships, right? Yes. So we're kind of like, eh, you're on autopilot. So I don't think it's because people are dicks. I think it's because they're like, you should know what I need. Because on tv, they always know. And you should have known that wasn't the gift I wanted. And it's like we have to do the same work that we would do in our romantic relationship. We just do.
Doree: Yeah, I was really glad that you talked about it because there is this misconception that all friendships should just be easy. And the second they get hard, that means you're not supposed to be friends anymore.
Kate: Exactly. Yeah.
Doree: And I really appreciated how you provide a roadmap, I think, to navigating those friendship difficulties. And I'm also really glad you brought up attachment styles because as Kate knows, I'm also obsessed with attachment styles when it comes to friends. And I have to admit that the first few chapters of your book kind of stressed me out because I was like, oh my God, she has such an anxious attachment style. And this was before I got to your chapter about attachment styles. I'm a recovering avoidant. So I was like, ok, there we go. Oh my God, this is so stressful for me.
Lane: I was like, I wouldn't stress you out if you weren't.
Doree: So then I about attachment, I was like, oh my God, okay, this explains everything. And then I was able to just be a little more chill. But those first two chapters, I was like, oh my God, this is so stressful for me.
Lane: And someone openly talking about all this stuff being let's get into it. And of course covering avoid is going to be like, hell no, let's run from it. I was want to
Doree: Just like, I don't want to get into this. I was like, oh, oh, ok, ok. It was really funny. Just that's to so funny kind of see that in action and it made me take a step back and think about, okay, why am I getting so uncomfortable with this? You know what I mean?
Lane: That's so funny. Yeah. I mean, for what it's worth, I've had every attachment style, so I get all sides of it, which I think has been very useful in talking about it because I really do see all of it. When I had some avoidant tendencies, I think, I don't know if I was ever straight avoidant. I think I might have been anxious avoidant the combination for a while. But I know for a while I was a little bit, what? You love me? Why go away? What? Shut up? I did have that for a little while. So I get, I have empathy for all sides, which has been nice because I think that sometimes what tends to happen, particularly with anxious, anxious attachments and avoidant attachments is there can be, I've seen it happen so often where there's this line drawn where it's just like, you are bad. No, you are bad. And it's like, I've never felt that way because I've been on both sides of it. I think that if people are, so, I'm very, when I did a lot of attachment style TikToks for a long time and people would come in and be like, yeah, avoidance are awful. And I was like, oh my God, hold on and just take a second because, so there are some people who draw these really harsh lines, and I always look at it as if the other person is willing to communicate with you, willing to work on this with you, because there are some people who don't care that you're hurt, they're hurting you and are really shitty. That's just human beings, just not very great human beings. But I've had some avoidant friends and they're just like, okay, you need something different than what I need. And I'm like, you need something different from what I need. And we've been able to figure something out. And I think that's really what it is, is not looking at it as we're different. So this is bad. This is a failure. But really looking and seeing any configuration can work if both people are doing their own work on themselves and open to that. And it's honestly, and I don't mean this in any kind of condescending way at all, but I'm really proud of you that you've kept reading and were like, I can do this. Cause it's hard. It's hard when you're feeling like, oh my God, when you're avoiding, you're talking about the feelings. No, not the feeling.
Doree: Yeah. I'm glad. It was also really funny when I got to your chapter about here's some nice things you can do for your friends. And I'm going through all, I'm like, oh, I've never done any of these.
Lane: And it's so funny cause so many of 'em are like, I've done this. It'd be cool if my friend did as an anxious person who's doing and tended to struggle with people pleasing and stuff. And it's a lot of times, that's the thing, we end up becoming friends with our opposites there so many times. And I always hesitate to say it because it's like, I never want to make it sound like I'm like, I've always been great and they've always sucked. No, that's not it. But you do get into these patterns where you're like, yeah, oh, I tend to give too much and I squash down my needs. And so then I'm friends with takers and people who don't give a shit about boundaries. It doesn't make me this pristine angel. It's bad that I'm in this dynamic too.
Doree: Yeah, it's a lot to think about. And
Lane: There's so much there.
Doree: There's so much there. I mean, know, we could probably have a whole episode just talking about attachment styles.
Kate: I've never dug too deep into attachment styles in terms of myself and others. I need now your book has, and talking to Doree a bit about it has made me be like,
Lane: I just think wanted to share all of the tools that had been useful to me essentially.
Kate: Yeah.
Lane: And also the way that attachment styles are usually talked about is in the very clinical way that my brain can't process. But it was something that it's in this study and I'm like, I'm gone. I can't.
Kate: For someone like me who's kind of more new to it or someone could be listening who's like, what the hell are they talking about? Yeah. What is a brief summary of an attachment attachment style? I know you both mentioned avoidant, anxious.
Lane: It's usually avoidant, anxious or secure. And it really is, the idea is that you're able to attach to other how easily you're able to attach to other people. So how easily you're able to connect with other people, how easily you're able to get close with other people. And a lot of the time, pretty much every time I would say it is based around how easily you were able to attach to your caregivers as a kid. So if you had any kind of stress around your attachment there had any kind of insecure attachment with that. It carries for the rest of your life, which is such a scam. And I'm so mad, I'm so mad about it because we don't get to choose it. We don't get to choose it. We get the caregivers we get, and then we are shaped by them, and then we get to untangle those knots for a long time
Kate: The rest of our lives.
Lane: I know, it's such bullshit. Yeah.
Kate: Why do you think we put so much emphasis on romantic relationships and not the platonic? Is that the patriarchy? What is that? Because in my mind, I guess also after talking about friendships so much on Forever35, they're essentially very similar. Just one you're sexually intimate and on a platonic relationship, not, but it's still extremely intimate emotionally. It can be physical.
Lane: Yeah.
Kate: There's such weight given to who we are and how we are in romantic relationships. And as you said, none in friendship. I guess if someone's listening who wants to work on themselves in their friendship specifically, what would be the first step you would advise them to take,
Lane: Wants to work on themselves in their friendships? In what way?
Kate: I guess not necessarily to be a better friend, but to maybe dig deeper into how they show up.
Lane: Yeah. I mean, I think taking stock is a really, really good place to start. I really recommend going through your current friendships and even your past friendships if you want to. But if you want to start with your current friendships and be like, okay, how do these people make me feel? How do I feel when I'm around them? What do I tend to bump into? Just starting to look at your own patterns. The way that many of us, if we've noticed that we have some kind of sticky patterns, which I think almost everybody does with romantic relationships, and you start to take stock and you're like, okay, this tends to be the type I go for. This tends to be, because there's always, at least for me, in my past romantic relationships, there was always kind of some current where it was some consistent kind of theme. And I think the same is true for our friendships, where you're like, and even when you take stock, you'll notice I talk about in the book, you might notice that when you are going through your current friendships, that a lot of the qualities that you are looking at remind you a lot of people from your childhood. And again, looking at it through this lens and also looking at yourself and saying, what do I actually want? Because so many of us, myself very much included thought that friendship was just like, oh, you chose me. I'll go, sure.
Kate: Right, right.
Lane: You're just going with the flow on a fucking lazy river from hell. And you're like, ok. But then you look at it and you're like, I actually don't like this person. I'm not really compatible with this person. This isn't the kind of French I want. So I think so many people are still tethered to these friendships they didn't really want. So I think a lot of it, and again, I think that that's why I wanted to give kind of different advice than what we see in a lot of these friendship books. Cause so much of the advice is go to a bar, meet some people. It's not that hard. You freaks. And I'm like, the problem is not meeting people. That's not what people are struggling with. The problem is not, I can't find anyone that I can talk to for 10 minutes. I think most of us can do that. It's, there's so much deeper work that we have to do. But people have just become so used to, Hey, take this quick, totally cheap garbage advice that's not going to ultimately help you. So I think as much as that seems like a more attractive option, I think that that is a stop gap. I think ultimately you have to do some deeper work. Yeah.
Kate: Lane, you have, I would say, earned a reputation as a Tinder expert by this point.
Lane: Yes. Yes. Very much so. Yes.
Kate: I have never been on a dating app. Just out of curiosity, what are you seeing, what's kind of the vibe on dating apps right now? Are there awful trends happening in the dating app world, specifically Tinder? Anything that of note that you, and actually while we're here, thoughts on making a friend via a friend dating app?
Lane: I haven't seen very many new trends. I've been doing Tinder Live for almost 10 years now. I haven't seen any new trends. Haven't.
Kate: That's amazing.
Lane: I know. It really is. I really have more than done my 10,000 hours
Kate: Of Tindering
Lane: All the apps. I know. Cause people are always like, what about this app? And I'm like, they're all the same. What are you talking about? The same people on every single one of them. But anyway, people love to do that. They think they're throwing me a curve ball. It'll be like someone after a Tinder Live show. What about this? And I'm like, you don't think I have been on that app? You think there's anyone different on that app? You've uncovered some secret thrift store where every coach first is 30 cents. You haven't, but I would know about it as I chain smoke a fake cigarette. But I think for better or worse, I have noticed that dating apps have not, the behavior has not really changed. I Mean for me, as somebody who does a comedy show about it, that's great because I'm not like, oh no, how I've run out of really chaotic profiles. How am I going to do this show now that's never once been worried about that. But as you know, for people who are using these apps to actually meet people, that's less fun. I think that for people mean there are people who meet people on friendship apps and stuff like that. If that works for you, that's great for me. I dunno, I'm tired. I don't want another app I used don't. If it were up to me, I'd use no apps. I don't know how you feel about that, but I don't want to be on my phone all the time. Yeah. I really don't. And there's like, we dont need.
Doree: Its over saturation. That's not,
Lane: Yeah. I don't think that's the answer. I don't think technology is going to save us in that way. If it was going to already would. I think it's a deeper problem that, again, it's the issue of, it's not that you can't meet people, it goes beyond that. It's real friendship is about how do I maintain this? How do I keep this healthy? What do I do when problems come up? That's it. So if it's just in terms of meeting people and that feels good to you, great. Yeah. For me, I don't know. I kind of took some pressure off of myself and I was like, you know what? I have some people who I really love who are really great. If other people come and add to that, that's great. If some people kind of leave, I'll address that as it comes. Yeah.
Doree: Well, lane, it's been really fun to get to talk to you. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you so, so much. Lane, where can our listeners find you? If they want to go to one of your live shows, how can they find that info? All the things?
Lane: Yeah, all the things. All my social media is @HelloLaneMoore. My website that has tour dates and all both of the books and everything is Lanemoore.org. And then my podcast is called, I thought it was just me. And that is on Patreon.
Doree: Amazing. Thank you so much.
Kate: Now I'm sitting here thinking about what my dog's attachment styles are.
Doree: Oh, I mean, mine is anxious.
Kate: Both of mine are anxious to the extreme.
Doree: You think most dogs are anxious?
Kate: Probably
Doree: Most cats are avoidant.
Kate: Yes. Yes, totally.
Doree: And horses are secure.
Kate: I would say horses are secure. Horses can be kind of salty though. I'm learning more about horses. Mares are very attached and the geldings can be a little bit aloof.
Doree: Interesting.
Kate: And the stallions can really take too you, but sometimes too much.
Doree: Yep.
Kate: Cause they haven't been, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Anyway, just thinking about my dogs. Well, that's not my intention for this week, but I will tell you what my intention is. Okay. Well, last week I was putting some thought into how to get off of Instagram for the summer. I'm still thinking about it. I haven't done it, but I am checking it less because I personally find it extremely overwhelming and discombobulated. There's no coherent flow to Instagram anymore. And I follow way too many people, so I just almost don't even look at it. And that note, okay, this week I have, I'm going to say a vulnerable intention.
Doree: Oh, Okay. I can't wait.
Kate: I want to figure out what to do for my birthday. My birthday is coming up in July. I really don't like birthday parties for myself. I never have. I don't know if it's just the result of being an slightly insecure person with a summer birthday, so nobody was ever around. I don't know. But I've never really done anything with a group for my birthday. And there is a part of me that deeply longs for something, but I don't know what to do. And I keep kind of coming up with all these ideas and I feel like I'm overthinking it. And then I think of all the people I would want to invite. And the list feels long and I get overwhelmed because everybody doesn't know each other. And I don't know. I don't how to do a birthday thing. I've never done it. I don't know how to do it. But I'm starting. I am kind of starting to feel like it would be nice to spend time with people I love and just celebrate getting to exist. How about you? How was your last week?
Doree: Okay, So Father's Day was pretty good, I have to say, just in terms of my performance of it.
Kate: Your performance.
Doree: Yeah. I got, first of all, shout out to c v s.
Kate: Wow.
Doree: Because you can upload photos into a photo book and they will make it immediately and
Kate: really?
Doree: Yes. And,
Kate: oh wait, did you do it online at your house or?
Doree: I did it online at my house. And then I chose the nearest c v s with a one hour photo, which was very close to my house. And I did it. I late at night, but it was ready first thing in the morning. Literally first thing I woke up and there was an email being like, your book is ready.
Kate: Oh my gosh, this is such a hot tip
Doree: Having some sale. So it was half, I think I paid $20 for a hardcover photo book that was ready immediately. So that was very, I was pleased with that. Also, I got to put, it was like Father's Day themed, so that was fun. A lot of pages that said things like, number one dad, best Dad ever. Stuff like that.
Kate: Oh I love that. It was cute.
Doree: And then something that I do every year for Matt is I get him and Henry matching. So one year, Matt's
Kate: you do?
Doree: Yes, I do. So one year, Matt's was a pizza with a slice missing. And Henry's shirt was a slice.
Kate: Doree, stop. That is so cute. What a great idea.
Doree: One year was like a Pac-Man t-shirt and Henry's was a ghost.
Kate: Oh my goodness.
Doree: And then this year, Matt's was a big moon, and Henry's is a little astronaut floating through space.
Kate: Where do you come up with these?
Doree: Etsy
Kate: Where do you find them?
Doree: Etsy, If you just search,
Kate: Those are so great.
Doree: Father, child t-shirts. Or even just Father's Day, I think they would probably come up. So I did that. And then I also ordered breakfast sandwiches for everyone, which were a little bit of a miss because I gotten at the wrong kind of bagel. But he was still able to eat it and it was fine. And it's the thought that counts.
Kate: It is the thought that counts.
Doree: And all he wanted to do yesterday was watch sports because it was the US gosh Open and two Red Sox games. So he was able to do that.
Kate: You could give that gift to him.
Doree: I could give him that gift. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. This week a, we are going on a trip, and so I feel like this is the week that I need to just sort of make sure we have everything in order and et cetera. So that is my intention for this week.
Kate: Well, I'm into it, Doree
Doree: Thank you, Kate.
Kate: These are good ones.
Doree: Thank you. Well, we should also tell people, this is our last Wednesday full length episode.
Kate: Yes. We'll be coming to you next
Doree: Week on the third.
Kate: On a Monday.
Doree: Yeah, on Monday the third.
Kate: Independence Day. Observed.
Doree: No. Independence Day Observed is on the fourth.
Kate: Oh, okay. Then forget that. Yeah, just ignore me. We'll be coming to you on Mondays from now on.
Doree: Yeah, we'll be coming to you on Mondays from now on. And if you want more, you can join the patreon patreon.com/Forever35. And this episode is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, our network partner is Acast. Talk to you all soon.
Kate: Thanks for listening.
Doree: Bye.