Episode 273: Laughter and Loss with Liz Glazer
CW: There is discussion of pregnancy loss, stillbirth, and grief in this episode.
Kate and Doree drop some fun news about the pod. (Spoiler alert: We’re launching a Patreon!) Then, Liz Glazer joins the convo to chat about how journaling inspired a career change from law professor to stand-up comedian, living vulnerably both on and off-stage, and how she and her wife navigated the loss of their daughter.
Mentioned in this Episode
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: And before we do that, we have an announcement and we are not going to tease it out any further here with some sort of buildup. We are just going to cut to the chase.
Doree: Cut to the chase. Kate, get right to that chase? Or do you want me to cut to it?
Kate: Well, you cut to it.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: You cut the chase.
Doree: Alright. Here is what is happening. Well, okay, I'm going to cut to the chase, but first I'm going to say
Kate: We keep not cutting Chase.
Doree: Well, I just feel it's important to say that you and I love working together.
Kate: We do.
Doree: We love making this show. We love our listeners. We want to keep doing that. This is not a Forever35 is ending announcement.
Kate: In fact, Doree, Doree will never get rid of me, is basically what's about to happen.
Doree: I've been blackmailed into too, that's what's happening here.
Kate: Continuing working with me. This is Doree trying to get out of this agreement.
Doree: Kate has something on me that I can't reveal, but
Kate: Doree, secretly free mugs all over Los Angeles. That's why we're here.
Doree: Yeah. Okay. Here's the deal. Forever35 is going to continue as a weekly free ad supported podcast, but we are going to stop doing three episodes a week. So the one episode a week that we're going to be producing is basically going to be what you're already used to hearing, but a mix of guests and mini uplight content. There's going to be more episodes that are just Kate and I. Yeah. So those are going to be coming out on Mondays starting July 3rd.
Kate: But also
Doree: We are creating a space on Patreon, and that is so that we can try out new formats so we can connect more closely with listeners. And it's so we can experiment a bit more than we can now. And I think one thing that Kate and I have always felt very strongly about is being transparent with each other, with our listeners. And so we really just want to be transparent about this announcement because I know it does sound like it's a change. It's a change.
Kate: It's a change. And change is scary. Change is also necessary. I think you and I creatively, professionally are excited about the idea of changing it up a little bit.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Slash if you can't hear the shakiness in my voice nervous,
Doree: But in a good way, right?
Kate: Yeah. Well really, I think, and I, for ever since we started Forever35, many years ago, we've always kind of revisited the idea of a subscription based model. How we fund the podcast working with advertisers. It's an ongoing dialogue because not only has the podcast changed, but the landscape of podcasting has changed and it continues to change. And you're probably feeling like a lot of your favorite creators are making similar announcements or have already done so, or let's be real, are probably going to, and I think we feel that way too. I know Doree and I are both subscribers to a billion newsletters. You and I are Patreon member. We are seeing a shift to subscription services, especially in the podcast landscape, right?
Doree: Yes.
Kate: It's just the reality of the space right now.
Doree: Yes. And I also want to be upfront and say, I know that not everyone listening is going to want to subscribe or have the bandwidth or the money to subscribe. And that is totally fine.
Kate: Yes, we totally hear you if that is your response. But
Doree: Here's the deal for
Kate: Like, yes, we
Doree: Want to work together on new projects
Kate: We do
Doree: on different podcasts, on different subject matter. And the fact of the matter is launching a new podcast with traditional advertising in the way that we have done with Forever35 is just, it's just not feasible in today's landscape. That's just the reality. So in order for us to do this, we really thought very long and hard about this and had a million conversations about it and changed our minds a thousand times, but we do now conclusively feel that a Patreon is the best way to go. So with all that said, here is how it's going to work. If you're not familiar with Patreon, which I should also say I feel like we're assuming everyone is familiar with Patreon. Patreon is a platform where creators can charge money for subscriptions and offer their fans usually bonus content opportunities to interact and a whole lot more, which we will talk about now. Oh,
Kate: We'll lay it out.
Doree: We're going to lay it out. So for $5 a month, here's what you get access to our product recall episodes, which we kind of piloted on the main feed in the last few months. We are going to be launching a new podcast called Season one, which is a TV rewatch podcast that, as you may have guessed from the name of the show, is about the first seasons of shows and patron only q and a episodes. And here's another very cool thing. So patrons are going to be able to vote on which TV show we should re-watch for the first one and then for all of them.
Kate: And yeah, we want to hear your thoughts
Doree: And you can vote on episodes of product recall. So if you are a fan of Lip Smackers and you're like, why haven't they done a Lip Smackers episode yet? You can feel like your fellow patrons to vote for a lip smackers episode.
Kate: Yes, we want to talk about Bonnie Bell. We do, but only if you want to hear about it.
Doree: So another thing that we are going be offering, and I feel like I might be most excited about this, Kate,
Kate: I think you are. I'm don't know, but you are.
Doree: Thank you, Kate.
Kate: I think you are. I'm nervously excited.
Doree: We're launching, well, we've launched a Forever35 Discord where we're going to be chatting about everything from prod recs to memes to basically whatever else you want to talk about. And Kate and I have been doing a little chatting in the Discord already,
Kate: So you can, yeah, we need you to get in there cause we're just talking to each other.
Doree: There's also going to be patron only merch discounts and VIP access to digital live shows. So all of that is for $5 a month, for $10 a month. We'll also give you a monthly shout out on a podcast episode by name because we are so grateful for your support. And if you're just like, I want to give them all my money
Kate: Because why not in this economy
Doree: For forever $35 a month, we'll also send you a personalized video, thank you from both of us.
Kate: And that trust me will be special.
Doree: Oh, it will be extremely special.
Kate: Now on to the tears because what is a tear without making it some sort of inside joke related to this podcast, Doree, you might recall a bit that turned into a ongoing theme here in Forever35 called Doree's Hotel. Oh yeah. Does that sound familiar to you?
Doree: Oh, it sure does.
Kate: Well we have of course taken that and run with it. So if you are joining us at the $5 a month tier, that is called Doree's Hotel Lounge. If you're coming in hot at the $10 a month tier, you are slinking into Doree's Hotel Spa in your Terry Cloth robe and slippers meeting us in the steam room. And for those joining us at the forever $35 a month level, we're snuggling down in Doree's Hotel Suite. I am eating dark chocolate covered Trader Joe's almonds in bed.
Doree: Yum.
Kate: And talking to you Yes. About the latest issue of People Magazine.
Doree: I'm drinking tea.
Kate: You're drinking tea. That's very sensible in a travel mug.
Doree: Yes. Kate,
Kate: Or are you free mugging in the suite? Doree?
Doree: Fuck no.
Kate: Oh my God.
Doree: There is also a free tier
Kate: There is,
Doree: which is basically just like you are signing up because you're Patreon curious, but you don't actually get any of the bonus content or the Discord access at the free tier, but you're just kind of signing up for updates. You'll get an update when we release new episodes and when voting opens for various shows, but you won't be able to actually participate. But if you want to just be kept in the loop, you can sign up for our free tier so you can sign up for everything at patreon.com/Forever35. Again, that's patreon.com/Forever35. The first Patreon podcast episode is going to be dropping on July 7th. So what we have done, because of course today is June 21st, we're offering a larger discount than usual on annual membership. So if you sign up between now and I guess July 6th, you'll get two months free after that, it will be one month free for signing up for an annual membership. So if you want to get that extra month free, you can sign up for the annual membership between now and July 6th. The Discord is open for business so you can chat away with other Forever35 patrons and us. The voting for the first season of Season one,
Kate: Oh my God,
Doree: is open.
Kate: I'm so excited.
Doree: So you can vote on that
Kate: For years Doree, we have for years joked about doing an OC podcast.
Doree: We have and that is one of the options that you can vote for.
Kate: The time is now, the moment has arrived,
Doree: The moment has arrived.
Kate: If you decide
Doree: And you know can just delight in the knowledge that you are supporting what we hope is one of your favorite podcasts become sustainable for the long term, we would really appreciate your support. And as we already mentioned, there will still be one episode per week of classic ye'old Forever35. It'll be free on your regular podcast feed. That is not changing. We'll still be interviewing guests, we'll still be answering listener questions, we'll still be chatting. And yeah, like I said, we've like, we've really thought about this decision. It's been months in the making actually years. We first started talking to Patreon like three years ago longer. Oh my God. Four years ago.
Kate: It's been an ongoing, it's been an conversation and just us examining and reexamining the podcast and how and the content that we make and how we want to work with each other and create things with each other is an ongoing conversation behind the scenes that never makes it to the podcast air. But please know it's, it's happening with a lot of thought and care and gratitude for all of you. Without measure, there is no way to measure truly how grateful we are for the way you have supported and helped sustain this podcast for five and a half years.
Doree: But this is really what we think is going to be best for the sustainability of the show, of our partnership, Our friendship
Kate: Doree. We will be friends no matter what happens with the pod.
Doree: That's true. Because you are blackmailing me.
Kate: Yeah, I've seen what you do with those mugs.
Doree: And also just our creative, mental and financial health. So please consider supporting us and signing up at patreon.com/Forever35. As you are listening to this, we're probably chatting in the Discord, so sign up head over there. There will be very detailed instructions about how to join the Discord. If you're not familiar with Discord, it's basically like Slack, but with a little bit more functionality and cool stuff. And yeah, we'll be there.
Kate: Yeah, I'm a total discord newbie basically. And I'm new. Okay. So you'll be fun. The water's warm. You'll be fine.
Doree: Come on it, you'll be fine.
Kate: Oh wow. That was fun.
Doree: That was fun. Kate, should we introduce our guest?
Kate: Yeah, we literally just did this interview we did today, an hour ago today.
Doree: It's true.
Kate: And it was such an incredible conversation. I'm like still tingling from the high of it all. I'm so excited for you all to meet our guest today. And I had the absolute pleasure and pleasure, Doree. Okay, full disclosure, everybody. I've had two hours of sleep today and that
Doree: it's true.
Kate: I've been really trying to hold it together. But that was me combining pleasure and privilege. That's what that was. I'm going to leave that in. Ok. We had the pleasure and privilege, the pleasure of talking to Liz Glazer. Liz is an award-winning standup comedian, actor and writer. She won first place in the Boston Comedy Festival and the Ladies of Laughter competition. She has been featured in the Wall Street Journal. She has opened for Mike Kaplan and one of my favorite standups, Maria Bamford. She's also appeared on ABC's for Life and CBS's Bowl. Shes also a former lawyer and law professor.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Yeah. She does private events for law schools, law firms, synagogues and major corporations. And she has an incredible new standup special. It's called a very particular experience. Basically as she said to us, wherever you can listen to music, you can listen to her special. It's moving. It is funny. It is sad. It's wonderful. And just a content warning for our conversation to come. We do discuss some pretty heavy topics like the loss of a child, stillbirth grief. So I just want to make sure we give you a very clear heads up on that because Liz is extremely forthcoming and honest about her experience and her wife's experience losing their daughter.
Doree: Yes. And before we take a break, just a reminder that you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. We're on Instagram @Forever35podcast. Again, our Patreon is at patreon.com/Forever35. I also forgot to mention Kate, that there is a seven day free trial
Kate: Fun
Doree: For the Patreon. So if you are like, I don't know about this Discord thing, I don't know about this whole thing, sign up for the seven day free trial. See how you like it, check it out. So you can do that. It's very easy. patron.com/Forever35. We have our favorite products at shopmy.us/Forever35. We have a newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. You can call or text us at (781) 951-0380 and email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. And we will be right back.
Kate: Liz, welcome to Forever35. We're really excited to have you. Also was very excited because Doree then texted me and was like, Liz's wife listens to the podcast. And I was
Liz: Not just listens. This is her podcast. She's a rabbi, which means her religion is Jewish, but I think her religion,
Kate: What is more of this? This is what we like to hear.
Liz: That's what I'm saying. If this podcast needs a rabbi.
Doree: Well, it was so one funny because she's emailed the podcast a bunch. She's emailed my other podcast, but I didn't know who she was married to. You know what I mean? And then when your friend emailed us about Know You, I think she said something like, and her wife Karen. And I was suddenly like, Wait, you, the Pings started my brain. And then I was like, Kate, her wife, listens.
Kate: So excited.
Doree: So that was cool. That was cool.
Liz: Yeah. I have to say. Yeah, no. So
Kate: What we're saying is this is Olive Garden when you're here and you're married to a listener, your family, we're so happy to have you. Before we get into so much good stuff, Liz, we kick off every episode asking guests about a self-care practice in their life. And so it's time to put you on the spot. What is your okay definition of self-care in your life? What does it look like?
Liz: Okay. So I feel like for self-care routines are often the thing. And I got to say I'm not great. So we just had a baby. Yes. Which I imagine will talk about. And we do so much lotion after. So she takes a bath and then we've been counseled to put lotion on her after the bath. And also after every diaper you got to put the diaper lotion. And I'm like, I never put any lotion on and I know it's bad. But anyway, so I'm just saying having a baby is a mirror to me about the lack of lotion that I have in my self-care routine and in my life. But that's what I think of when I think of self-care. It's not what I do. However, things that I do, okay, here's what I have. So I journal every day, and I was not a natural adopter to the practice because I was the person growing up that I would buy a paper journal, write one line, trying to be the next Anne Frank, but just writing one line, closing it, never writing in it again. And then the next year I would buy another journal. Cause I love paper products, but a website that I found seven 50 words.com, I'm not sponsored by them, whatever. It's this guy and his wife. And I think they used to work at Twitter and they made this website. I have been using this website, 7 5 0 words.com for
Kate: oh my gosh,
Liz: over 10 years.
Doree: Wow. Okay.
Liz: And I mean, not to say I've never missed a day, I've missed days. But it's like, I think what they do really well is they gamify the practice of journaling. Because first of all, they tell you once you've hit seven 50 and the reason for seven 50, it's on their homepage, but it's taken from the artist's way. The two 50 words is a page times three is Julia Cameron, obviously not the letter of Julia Cameron's law because then you're with a quill and only parchment paper, whatever it is. But it's good enough. And for me, it really got me over that hump with journaling, which had been the hump of my entire life because I always wanted to do it and I felt motivated. So they count your words and once you've hit seven 50, you can go on more. But assuming you've hit seven 50, you can say, okay, I'm done. And the next page gives you feedback in the form of bar graphs and charts and pretty colors and all of your most used words. It's like the magnets, magnetic poetry. And it's so fun. And so I have a thing with a couple of friends where we'll send our most used words to each other in an email. And I have one friend who does this to me every single day. He sends his words and I write back a poem with the words sometimes. And so anyway, it's a great website. I've been using it for a long time and I said over 10 years, it's actually just, oh no. Cause it's June. I dunno what time is right now. But yeah, because I started May 21st, 2013.
Kate: I want to ask, do you feel, as a person who's journaled for a long time, is there a takeaway from the experience for you?
Liz: Yeah, I mean, I owe my sobriety to journaling. And I'm not here saying it's the right thing for everybody to be sober. I'm not that kind of sober. Okay. Cause I think, I like drugs and, but what I didn't was the way that I was as a writer in my own journal on drugs. And I noticed that when I read it back. And also I specifically didn't like that I would take drugs and then the next morning would write about my regrets about having taken the drugs. And I then thought I was, at the very least, if I quit drugs, I'll have different things to write about than this because I keep writing this. So I guess that as a takeaway, and maybe even a broadening of that takeaway is if I'm noticing that I keep writing about something over and over again, I'm kind of like, maybe this is giving me Aida and I should let it go.
Doree: Wow. That's really powerful.
Liz: It has been for me. And I'm very, I don't try to be interesting or funny. It sometimes happens where I'm like, oh, I think that was a joke. And then I'll text myself or whatever because I'm a comedian, I'm supposed to be keeping track of that stuff. But I really don't. I, it's really just because I believe in the overall good of it for the self-care routine.
Doree: I mean, that is very powerful. And here I am with my little one line a day journal and I'm like, oh, I think I wrote 20 words.
Liz: That's great.
Kate: But it's the practice, right. That kind of showing up. So I mean, yeah, consistency is, I mean, look, I don't want to get sucked into the world of productivity, but there is something to be said for the consistent practice of something that can be really transformative in big and small ways. Yeah,
Liz: I think so. Yeah. And I know what you mean about not wanting to get sucked into it for the kind of eye rolly reasons of it. But then yeah, there is something, because I really don't care what's in those words at this point. I did, when I first started, I thought a lot about it. Now I really don't care. It's like I just have to do them or else, I don't know. It's don't like to make the analogy to brushing teeth because that's not the easiest thing. Whenever someone's like, oh, it's like brushing your teeth. I'm like, I can stop you right there. Cause if it's brushing my teeth, I should need a license to do that. Or, you know what I mean? It doesn't come naturally, but it's like, I don't know, just eating something basic, really basic bio kind of thing where I don't think about how it was. I just think that it was,
Doree: Well, can we talk about going from law and academia to being a standup? Because, well, yeah. I think that there are some similarities between being a standup and being able to deliver a compelling lecture as a professor. And so
Liz: of course
Doree: I'm wondering when, yes. Okay. Fair.
Liz: I didn't do that.
Doree: Could you tell our listeners kind of about what that journey was like and when things sort of pinged for you that this was actually what you wanted to do?
Liz: Yeah, I mean, the journey and the pinging were pretty immediate. Which is to say that I never thought that I was going to do it. So I took an improv class on a whim because I was like, my life as a tenure track, not yet tenured, but tenure track law professor was very goal-oriented, achievement minded. It's like everything is for the service of getting tenure. And I think that it's the same if you're making partner or if you have some sort of track where you're at a job and you're like, I can see an upward mobility ladder or something like that. And so everything was about that. And I was like, I'm just going to take an improv class. I'm going to have fun. Remember what that's like? Whatever. And then of course, the teacher of the improv class was super inspiring, amazing, fearless. I just thought she was absolutely beyond, and my world was broken open in this way that I completely never thought about. Cause I was funny for a law professor, which is to say not the bar is extremely low, no offense to law professors. But anyway, so it wasn't in my consciousness. And then this teacher of this improv class was the one who was like, Hey, do you want to do standup for the first time? Or have you ever thought of doing Santa? And I said, no. And then she's like, okay, well I'm just saying I would put you on my show. And I was like, still, no. And then she's like, let me just tell you, a lot of people would want what I am offering to you, which now I know then I didn't. But what I knew then was that if someone's saying a lot of people want this thing, I'm like, well, I want that. Which isn't not a great quality, but I think that that was part of the motivation. And then I did it for the first time, and I absolutely loved it. And the truth is, I mean, I had written stuff to say, which thank God I didn't say because it would not have been funny at all. It was like this, you remember when Linda Evangelista, the supermodel said the thing about I don't get out of bed. Oh yes. For less than $10,000 a day. And she got a lot of crap for saying that. And I was like, well, what if she was just saying that she was tired or depressed? And I thought that that was the spark to an amazing 10 minutes. And thank God I did not go anywhere near that material. And instead I opened a package that I didn't know what was in it, but it came to my door and I didn't generally order a lot of stuff from the internet to come to my house because I'm afraid of the mail and anybody knocking at my door, et cetera. My wife is very different from that. And thankfully, we can live a normal life because of that. So I get this package, I had no idea what was in it. And I was on my way to the show literally. And somebody told me that because I was freaking out about the show. And this friend of mine who had a lot of performance experience was like, you should be vulnerable. And I was like, great. Got it. I hung up the phone and I'm like, how do you be vulnerable? I have no idea how to do it. They don't teach you how to do that in law school for sure. And then I was freaking out about that. Cause I'm like, well, now I don't know how to do what Abby said. And then I see this package on my way out the door, literally. And I was like, oh, I was going to open it then. I'm a way to be vulnerable is just to not know the answer to something. And I don't know what is in this package. So I opened the package on stage and it turned out that what was in it, so my mother had visited my apartment two weeks prior, and my cat, Mona white, fluffy cat would on top of the closet where my suits were that I wore to school and get her white fluffy fur all over my suits. And my mother was like, Elizabeth, you look like a cat. You can't wear that. And she's like, you have to get vinyl suit covers. And I was like, okay, mommy, I'll get it. And she knew I wouldn't get it. So she sent me three packs of six. So 18 vinyl suit covers in the mail. And I didn't know I was getting them because this was what she was doing to get me to put them on my suit so I wouldn't look like a cat. So anyway, so I opened the package on stage, and in that moment, what clicked was that I was myself in the sense that then I suddenly had effectively a set list because I had to tell these people in the theater, my relationship with my mother, the fact that I have a cat, I teach law school and I wear suits and all of this, here's a little bit about me, basically part of my standup set that I was too nervous to just write down. And instead was talking about a supermodel. I mean, no shade to Linda Evangelista. I really don't mean it that way.
Kate: You should still use that joke. You should still work out Linda Evangelista joke.
Liz: Sure, sure, sure. I mean, it's a killer for sure. So anyway, so that's what I did. And the spark of this is what I got to do. I mean, I told my therapist the next session I was, I felt like I was having a professional orgasm, and that was the thing I said. And since then I've written a joke and I was like, if you don't know what a professional orgasm is, it's basically a regular orgasm. But I knew it was happening for sure. And so based on that, I was like, wow, I got to go. And I didn't go right away, but it was pretty soon after that that I was like, oh, I'm going to figure this out.
Kate: I love this story so much. And it's also fascinating to me because I listened to your standup special and you made some comment about AP classes and it just, knowing your story now, it seems like you come from a very high achieving family. And I, and just listening to this, is that the pressure, the expectation, is that something that you've revisited or evaluated or examined as an adult? Is that, is that part of you? I also, I might have this completely wrong, I could be projecting Liz.
Liz: Yeah.
Kate: But that was my, that's what I was, the vibe I was picking up.
Liz: Yeah, you're a hundred percent right. And I really love that joke on my album because it's such a moment of truth of if this soup kitchen doesn't give AP credit, we're not serving. And that's how I was raised. And yeah, you're a hundred percent. And I think my parents, so my parents are descended from Holocaust survivors, both sides, four out of four, perfect score. And so because of that, they in the best way, we're like, we need to make sure you have a profession because we don't want you, God forbid, whatever. I mean, I guess there's, there could be different ways somebody could emerge from the Holocaust and be like, do whatever the hell you want, because you never know when something could be taken away. But my parents were like, no, be a lawyer. So that's the other way, I guess. And I get it. And I don't mean I wouldn't be who I am without the background that I have, but yes, I revisit it constantly. First of all, I do a lot of standup at law firms and law schools. And so I talk a lot in those contexts about everything that I was ashamed of when I was in that world, because it's with imposter syndrome, the thing every, everybody's told about imposter syndrome that they're like, okay, well, everybody has it. And so the kind of upshot of even knowing the syndrome is knowing that you don't, you're not actually an imposter. But when I look back at my law career, I'm like, yeah, I was an imposter. That's the only thing I really was. Which isn't to say that I was awful at it, so I wasn't. But it's what I became an expert at was swindling admissions officers and wooing teachers into giving me a good grade when I hadn't read the book, literally and metaphorically. And so in a sense, I was verified as a fraud. And now I don't feel that way. And I feel like I do contend with this kind of mindset on a very daily basis because in comedy, there's a lot of achievement oriented thinking because it's like, oh, did you know, get on late nights? Did you get past at this club or that club and whatever. And I think for me, as a person who was raised as I was, right, socialized to achieve and to really care a lot about that, it's taken a lot for me to let go of some of the achievement oriented ways of identifying. So I don't know mean the journaling helps because the journaling is a way of, yeah, not these journal pages are going to be crap. They're not going to be perfect. Nothing about this is perfect. And also, I think the way that I've leaned into doing standup, which is I like to do a lot of crowd work. I like to do a lot in the moment. And that's like, I don't know, because I have a couple friends in standup who also came from other backgrounds where they went to whatever school and they had some fancy job, and they're like, yeah, but what's different is I'm very written, they say, and I do write a lot, but also, I don't know that that's exactly my stage presence. I feel like I'm a little more chaotic on stage, and sometimes one might think based on my background that I'd buttoned up. So I dunno.
Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: Okay. So let's talk about your album.
Liz: Yes.
Doree: Which Kate and I both really enjoyed. I mean, Kate, I feel like I always speak for you, and I'm always like, we both loved this,
Kate: But no, I left. And
Doree: We both, we were texting about it.
Kate: It starts with, I hope you like stillbirth. And I let out a loud cackle because I too love grief and the combination of raw grief and comedy. So you nailed it. I loved it.
Liz: Thank you. Thank you.
Kate: So Doree, speak for me is what I'm saying.
Doree: Oh, Well, let's talk about how that album came about and how you processed your grief through that album. And if you feel okay talking about the story of losing your daughter, Leo. Yeah.
Liz: Yes. I'm totally comfortable talking about it. Mean, one of the reasons that I really wanted to do an album about it was because I was worried I would never laugh again. And I don't even mean it as a comedian. The fact that I'm a comedian is almost just like a coincidence in this story. Because as a person I always looked to and used humor as a way of processing feelings and life and hard feelings in life, perhaps most urgently with humor. So I guess I knew that I was nervous about that. And then I started writing stuff that happened in my journal and otherwise, and I started to think there might be really a need, not only for me, but also for me, but a need in general to do comedy around this topic. And I mean, an interesting thing I think is people seem to have this idea of, well, there are certain things you shouldn't joke about. And there are certain things never. And I think that to me, I find that as even a principle to be so harmful because, first of all, is there a way of being really mean and insensitive and talking about something that is sensitive? Of course, I still think that that should be an available option, but I'm not talking about that. First of all, I trusted myself as a teller and as a person who lived through this experience to say something meaningful and humorous, and to have that Venn diagram intersect in a way that would be worthwhile given the gravity of the subject matter, which is pregnancy loss and stillbirth and grief. And also the gravity of memorializing my unborn child with whatever I was going to make. So the stakes were pretty high for me going into this. And then as I started, I just think because people, I have gotten comments of, you really shouldn't do this. Listen, I had a stillbirth 10 years ago and I never talked about it, and I'm fine. And I'm like, well are you? so I did get those messages, but I just started thinking about that and I'm like, the idea that there are these off limit topics is so harmful because you're basically telling people in pain what's not an option. Healing. Ok, that's what we're going to take off the table. I, and of course then the follow up question is, yeah, but it's healing for you. But is it good for the audience? And I think that that depends. I mean, I worked on this stuff for a while. I took it out. It was difficult. First of all, one of the things, so I talk about Leo, our stillborn daughter of blessed memory, and also the loss of my cat, Mona, who was the cat from the story, from my first standup set, and also of my dad, very sweet cat. She really was. And my dad, who was also a sweet cat and died at 73, he died during the pandemic, but not of Covid, which is the no homo of dying during the pandemic. That is a joke. But it was sad when he died, obviously. But it was interesting to me because I missed him. I missed things about him. And I was like, the thing about stillbirth that, first of all, nobody talks about it really. And second of all, part of the reason I think it's confusing to talk about is because you're not, you don't know what to miss. You miss everything. It's a death of hope. It's everything. And so I really wanted to say something about that and say something about love and loss. And I felt that I had something to contribute, but there's nothing, because in testing some of this material, it was hard. Not every audience at a comedy club is like, oh yeah, I came here to hear dead baby jokes, but there's nothing. When my dad died, I was also nervous about taking that material out because it had to do with death. And there's nothing like the stillbirth of your daughter to make your dead dad jokes suddenly your lighter material. I know. So, So that's how I really metabolized a lot of the experiences for the album. And I'm very, very happy with how it all came together. I think it's funny, and I also think, yeah, that's what I meant to say. So
Kate: I really like that point you make about grief, because I am someone who's always thought about grief losing a parent from that perspective.
Liz: Yes. I'm sorry.
Kate: I Mean, Well, likewise.
Liz: Thank you.
Kate: But I think, and I've not experienced the loss of a child, and it really was one of those aha moments for me where I was like, I think I know everything about grief. And then I was listening to you and I was like, oh, surprise I dont. How have you, in other ways outside from a performing space, processed, I dunno, process is such a shitty word. What does grief look like to you? Yeah, I guess is a better question.
Liz: I mean, No, it's a really good question. I mean, I think grief, grief looks like life. I think that one of the things that I came to understand about pregnancy loss is that the reason people delay saying when they're pregnant is to spare people the knowledge of potential loss. And so I think within that, there's this idea that knowledge of loss is a moral bad to be avoided in the world. And I think that that's very confusing. I get it. Cause I, as a kid had the kind of O C D that if I even like this conversation, I would've had to wash my hands a million times. I wouldn't have been able to attend my own album recording without a Zi washer in the background, because I would've had to wash my hands of death because I was so afraid of death. And I think that that's rampant, as opposed to finding a way to incorporate it. So Karen and I and my wife were lucky enough to, we have just older than two week old baby Eloise now.
Doree: Oh my gosh.
Kate: Two weeks. Oh my goodness.
Liz: Yeah, right. Isn't it wild? Oh yeah. She's amazing. It's an insane moment. But the idea, some people ask, sometimes they're like, oh, do you say that she's your first child? And where, I mean, Karen's a rabbi and she gave her Yom Kippur sermon about the loss of Leo. I did an album about the loss of Leo. And that doesn't make it go away, the grief or the feelings or whatever. But I think we both made our artistic choices and creative choices to do that, because we were like, we don't want the story to be, and then we had another baby, and now we're fine because people don't work that way. Right. Yeah. It's not, when my dad died, someone was like, well, you can find another 73 year old man. So I just think we're all different. And grief and grieving can be an opportunity to, I don't know, intensify love. It's super sad. And I think, to your point, Kate, it's knowing about it is scary to experience loss. And it is also enriching to the experience of life. So I still mean any thought of death, not my own, but anybody I know. I'm scared of that. And that's still true. And also, I do think that grief has made me a better person.
Doree: What was the experience of Eloise's pregnancy and birth for you?
Liz: Really anxiety filled
Doree: Yeah.
Liz: I mean, I think both of us try to lean in to the gratitude, which gratitude is another one of the buzzwords that's kind of eye roll a little bit. But I do think that it displaces anxiety when used correctly. And so there's the anxiety of death and also the gratitude for every single day. And I think every day that Karen continued to be pregnant, yes, there was anxiety up until the birth, and then there was new anxiety. But also I think, I don't know if it's losses specifically or whatever, but the idea of leaning into, I am very grateful for everything I have for everyone I'm close to. And I'm not, it's interesting, I think because it's like, I'm not grateful that we had a stillbirth. Cause that seems still, it's a step that I'm like, I don't know about that. But I'm grateful that we've lived all of the experiences that we've lived, and that has been one of them. And so with the pregnancy every day, I was continued to be grateful that that was true, because that was a step that preceded having Eloise in our lives, and it was a necessary step. So that's something, I mean, I can also say more of the story. I don't mean to skirt around anything if I haven't answered any questions about the story of the stillbirth,
Doree: Whatever you feel comfortable talking about.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was the kind of thing we didn't know it was happening until it was happening. And that, I don't know that there's a better or worse way, but basically Karen had kind of a sudden onset of preeclampsia that was undiagnosed until after Leo's stillbirth. And so there was one test that was still outstanding that we got the results back from on the day of Leo's stillbirth that would have confirmed a diagnosis of preeclampsia. I mean, I always find it's, it's helpful to know those things. As an anxious person, I'm always, I want to tell anybody whatever information. I think the main differences between the pregnancy that we had with Eloise and the pregnancy we had with Leo was that Karen was high risk. And so with Karen being high risk, I mean, we basically moved into the doctor's office. We were monitored constantly. We didn't have a doppler at home. We were in a bereavement group. And there were people in our bereavement group who then had pregnancies after their losses who did have a Doppler at home. I dunno what kind of personalities they have. Me and Karen, I don't think Karen would have ever not been connected to the Doppler if we had one at home. And so, different people do it different ways, but I do think that having the privilege of the care that we got is huge. And one of the main reasons that I wanted to do an album about stillbirth is the extent to which there's massive inequities in healthcare that result in stillbirth. From my understanding, I didn't say this on the album, but it is my understanding that the reason or a reason that stillbirth is as rampant as it is in the United States is that anti-abortion activists won't allow for the kind of testing that would potentially lessen the number of stills per year. So yeah, I suppose that's sort of speculative, but I, I've confirmed it with some law professor friends that they're like, oh yeah, that's totally a thing. So anyway, I mean, it's a huge problem. It's super, super sad, and all of that is understating it. So I'm just trying to give as much information as I can and also not overwhelm the conversation.
Kate: Well, again, I mean, we're very sorry for your loss.
Liz: Thank you, Doree. I really appreciate very much.
Kate: Yeah. And I also think, and I'm sure I'm, you've been told this and I'm just repeating it, but it is such a gift to share about loss because, and I'm sure you've already heard this, and I know there's been like, I'm so grateful there's been this kind of conversation about humor and grief and the way it's being talked about, because these are experiences that people are living every day, that the rest of us are just chugging along with life. And we've all been conditioned not to talk about it or talk about it in a way that really skirts over the authentic experience. And it just is, it's really meaningful. I don't know. I sound very cheesy. I don't know how to say it in a non cheesy way.
Doree: No, you don't.
Liz: Yeah, I appreciate it. So we've been watching, have you been watching Couples Therapy, the show? Do you know?
Kate: On Vh1?
Doree: I haven't watched it.
Liz: Oh no.
Kate: I used to work for vh1. I think they had a celebrity couples therapy TV show. Not the one you're talking about.
Liz: So this is, it's, it's in its third season. We just discovered it. It's amazing. It's on Showtime, we get it on Hulu or Paramount Plus whatever. And it's this docuseries with this couples therapist who's amazing. Her name is Orna. I don't know her personally, but there are times. So she basically just does couples therapy and you watch, and it's super fascinating and we love it. And she has, I've tried to boil down her philosophy to a quote or a something, and there was something that she said, which is, and I'm paraphrasing, that people spend their whole lives trying to avoid certain truths because they think that those truths will kill them. And in fact, they'll make them and their relationships stronger. And I feel like when she said that outright, I was like, yes, this is why this show is amazing. This is why you're amazing. And this is why I love comedy. I didn't get into comedy because I was like, oh, I want to get laughs. I like the laughs. And everybody has a different origin story. But I think in that first set, what was so freeing was, all I have to do is tell these people about these vinyl suit covers. Right. That's really just being me. Yeah. And of course, in this instance with talking about grief and stillbirth, it was much more challenging because it's not as light inherently as my cat had her fur on my suit. But it's really the same thing. It's just like, here's actually happening and I'm going to start there and we'll see what's funny about it. But I'm not going to pretend my life is different from what it is. In order to get a laugh, I'm not going to pretend anything at all. Right. So anyway, so I think in terms of with grief and loss and sadness, it's kind of like, yeah, it's all there.
Kate: Liz, I have really loved so much getting to talk to you. This has really been
Doree: same,
Liz: Same page, truly
Kate: Moving and funny and just wonderful for our listeners who want more from you.
Liz: Yes.
Kate: Where can they find you? Where can they listen to your new special? I mean, I know where I listen to it on Spotify, but I'm sure it might be elsewhere.
Liz: Great. Yeah, I think that, so you can go to my website, dear Liz Glazer, you're writing me a letter. D E A R L I Z G L A Z E R.com. And then you can find my socials, which are basically @LizGlazer on everything. And for the album, you can go to Spotify or iTunes, basically anywhere you can find a song, you can get the album.
Doree: Great. Well, thank you again. It was really great to talk to you.
Kate: So Doreee, one of the most magical things about getting to talk to Liz was also getting talk to talk to Liz's wife Karen.
Doree: Oh my gosh.
Kate: Who is a Forever35 and an excellent adventure listener.
Doree: Totally. Yes.
Kate: So Karen, hi. It was so great to meet you over Zoom. Yeah, well over our podcasting app called Riverside. But it's basically Zoom. It was such a treat. It was so much fun. I really absolutely loved getting to talk to Liz. So I especially, I mean, every moment. You know what too, this was one of the only times I've almost cried or cried in a podcast interview. I dunno if you caught that, but I was like,
Doree: I didn't want to say anything.
Kate: Choked up.
Doree: It did look like you were going to start crying.
Kate: Did it?
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Could you see that through video?
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: Yeah. I did. I did. I was really overcome with emotion. And that hasn't happened to me too much, I don't think. But again, I've had two hours of sleep, so I might just not be remembering. Well, Doree, last week, my intention was to not push myself physically because I fell off of a horse and I pulled my groin. And part of the reason I honestly was up and not able to sleep was because my groin is still bothering me. And it's not always comfortable sleeping. So I haven't pushed myself physically, but I've got to stick to that.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: And this week,
Doree: Have you, wait, you literally gotten back on the horse?
Kate: No, I wasn't able to attend my lesson last week. And then this week I was going to not ride, but I was going to actually text my instructor and see if we could work on some horsemanship stuff. Cause that's also part of what I'm learning. I really, I've never learned how to lunge, lunge horse am i saying that right. Yeah. I've never learned how to lunge. So I want to learn how to lunge a horse. That's basically where you, the horse moves around you in a circular motion on a long lunge line. Ok. You're like exercising and training them. I've never learned the weeds in the hay.
Doree: Hey, hey,
Kate: Hey. But that's where I'm at in terms of my groin and taking it easy. And this week I really want to put up a gone fishing sign on my Instagram. And I need to do that. And I need to also settle my guilty feelings about getting off Instagram because I put a lot of pressure on myself to be on there for professional reasons. And I want to obviously be on there as we are making big podcast announcements. But I also need to take a little vacation from, I think all social media for my own mental health per usual. Look, we've heard this one before, but I'm trying to figure out how best to do that.
Doree: Okay. Well, Kate, last week I was talking about Henry's dance recital. And I have to admit, full disclosure, that he did not want to go
Kate: No.
Doree: And I was not super chill about it.
Kate: Oh, okay. Because you said you were going to try to be
Doree: I know, and I wasn't.
Kate: That's okay.
Doree: But he did go, he did perform and he loved it.
Kate: And I saw the video, saw the video,
Doree: and he wanted to do the dance again at home. He wanted to watch the video. And so that was also kind of a good lesson for me, because as a parent, you just sometimes don't know. It's like, do I force my child to do this thing that I think actually deep down he really wants to do, but, or do I just let him bail from everything or you know what I mean? It's like, ugh,
Kate: I do, I do. I do know what you mean. And there's no right or wrong answer. And every decision is its own thing, and it feels really hard and heavy. And no matter what you decide it's not right.
Doree: Yeah. And I think at one point I left him in the back hallway with his class and his teachers as they were getting ready to go on stage. And I went into the audience and sat down and I was like, he may or may not come out, I don't know, but I have now relinquished this, relinquished control of this to the teacher. So I did feel like that was my final sort of, because at that point, at the point where I left him, he was not fully in his costume yet. He was refusing to get into it. And so I was just sort of like, Okay, well This is where I'm going to remove myself from the situation.
Kate: Yeah. Walk away.
Doree: Walk away.
Kate: But he did a fantastic job,
Doree: but he did a fantastic job. He was super cute and he's really proud of himself. So that was really sweet to see. This week is Father's Day, and I haven't planned anything, so I'm sort of like, oh. So my intention is to figure something out and I don't know, I think I'm going to make a photo book at Walgreens because they can turn it around in an hour.
Kate: They sure can.
Doree: So they
Kate: They can still print photos too.
Doree: So that is my intent.
Kate: I love it. Happy Father's Day to all those who celebrate.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate: And you know what, also, shout out to all of you who have a hard time on this holiday.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: Because we see you.
Doree: We do see you. Alright, Kate, let's remind everyone that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and you, Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks for listening. Thanks for supporting us. We are grateful for you.
Kate: Bye everybody.
Doree: Bye.
Kate: Love you.