Episode 271: Deconstructing Influencers with Stephanie McNeal
Kate and Doree switch up their skincare routines as the weather changes before culture writer and reporter Stephanie McNeal joins them to chat about the perfect temperature for her beverages of choice, her new book Swipe Up For More: Inside the Unfiltered Lives of Influencers, and just what the deal with Mormon influencers is.
Photo Credit: Erin Silber Photography
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Transcript
Kate: Welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No. But we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: We do. Hello?
Doree: Can you get all sexy, cozy and into it?
Kate: I got a new serum that I've been putting on my face.
Doree: Really?
Kate: Yeah. Let me make sure I have the name of it correctly. It's from Cosrx.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: It's their triple hyaluronic moisture. I actually ordered it from our sponsor. I Herb. I Herb. I herb. Oh,
Doree: Cool. That's fun.
Kate: And what I've been doing, this is so dorky. I apply it, the people do on TikTok, how people take droppers and just directly drop things onto their face. My whole life I've always dropped into my hands. Right.
Doree: Same.
Kate: I think, I don't know. My theory is that people now do droppers on the face because it's like a better on camera.
Doree: Oh, it's like more dramatic.
Kate: Dramatic. It's more dramatic to just drop her stuff onto your face. Yes. It's not more Yes, yes. Practical. It certainly doesn't make sense to me, but I've been dripping this stuff onto my face.
Doree: And you like it?
Kate: I kind of like the drip kind of. Now I kind of get why people do it.
Doree: Oh, interesting. Okay.
Kate: Yeah, it's a hydrating serum. It's hyaluronic acid, vitamin b. It's got some nice glycerin in there. It's very nice. Okay. It's very nice. Yeah. I've been on a little bit of a CosRX train lately. I'll tell you more about it at some point. But I've been using a lot of their products.
Doree: Okay. That's exciting for you.
Kate: I've been quite, yeah. I'm trying to really hydrate this old skin I have. Sometimes my skin is like, it's If a pie crust was a face
Doree: Flaky
Kate: And delicious.
Doree: And delicious,
Kate: Yeah. It's just Dry. How up? There's not a cake where there's a lot of moisture. I'm trying to make my face a cake.
Doree: It's funny that you say this because I've been thinking, oh, just literally over the last couple days that my skin has been feeling a little dry, which is interesting because it's been rather humid here in Los Angeles.
Kate: It has been humid. It's really strange. We're so not used to wetness this. It's like, ugh.
Doree: So I'm like, why is my skin so dry if it's so humid?
Kate: I woke up this morning with a sheen of sweat on my chest and I don't know what that's about, but
Doree: Wow.
Kate: I know. There it's weird. It's like I'm wet but dry. This sounds gross. Not gross.
Doree: Lovely.
Kate: Double, double entendre, if you will. Well, if you're experiencing dehydration in your skin, have you changed up anything as a result to help it along?
Doree: I, I'm like, no, I haven't really been. This sort of just occurred to me that this is happening, so I'm trying to sort of troubleshoot.
Kate: I hear you. well, May I offer you a couple products that I really like that I feel do help.
Doree: Yes please.
Kate: Okay. Well, I've already mentioned the Beakman 1802 milkshake. It's a squalling spray.
Doree: Yes. You have
Kate: And I find that really hydrating before I do a hyaluronic acid serum and then a moisturizer. And I've also been trying this comfort Ceramide cream mist from Cosrx. Same idea. It's a kind of a hydrating slash with the ceramide protecting the skin barrier type mist. Also a very fine mist, which I really love. But here is, okay, here's a new cream that's coming into the coming play.
Doree: Okay, I'm listening.
Kate: It's SRX Comfort Ceramide Cream. Now this is a thick Bitch.
Doree: Okay. Because I think.
Kate: It's not for the faint of heart.
Doree: I mean, look, I'm just being, I'm going to be real with you, Kate, for a second.
Kate: Take me here. Let's go.
Doree: I'm probably not going to get a mist.
Kate: That's fine. I don't think you need to, But that's my thing.
Doree: I was thinking that I might want to get a more heavy duty moisturizer.
Kate: Okay. This stuff is delicious. It's definitely heavy. To me. It reads as a winter moisturizer, but because my skin is feeling so dry, I've been using it.
Doree: Yeah. I think that's what I need right now.
Kate: Oh my gosh. This stuff is great. I, I've never tried any face creams from CosRx before and I have been blown away by how delicious this is.
Doree: Wow. Okay. All right. Maybe I'll check it out. Oh, maybe I will check it out.
Kate: Rec thank you for the recommend. Recommend. You're welcome.
Doree: You're welcome. You know what, Kate, you just influenced me.
Kate: It's so interesting that you say that because we have an influencing expert on the pod today.
Doree: Interesting.
Kate: Interesting. Did I just like, maybe I should like market what I just did. Create a pay model.
Doree: Maybe you should. Our guest today is the one and only Stephanie McNeil, who I worked with for several years at Buzzfeed News and at buzzfeed. She covered internet culture, the influencers and creators who shape it, viral trends, pop culture, and how social media impacts our I R L world. She's now an editor at Glamor where she's still writing about this stuff just for a different publication. She's also very active on Instagram where she provides daily updates and commentary on the latest happenings in the influencer world and other musings about pop culture. And she does a weekly roundup of her Instagram post on Substack in 2021. She was a consulting producer and appeared on the documentary film The Rise and Fall of LuLaRoe, which I feel like if you haven't seen it,
Kate: That is up Doree's Alley.
Doree: It is right up my alley up. But the documentary was based on a 10,000 word feature she wrote for Buzzfeed News in 2020. She also hosted the accompanying podcast, also called The Rise and Fall LuLaRoe in 2022. And her new book is called Swipe Up for More Inside the Unfiltered Lives of Influencers. As you'll hear when we start talking to Steph, I did blurb this book and I love this book. It's a real pulling back the curtain. She goes deep on it's three influencers. Good. And it's really good luck. I loved that. So before we get to Steph, let me just remind everyone that you can get links to everything we mentioned on our show at Forever35podcast.com. Just click on the episodes link and click on this episode. You'll see all those links. We're also on Instagram @Forever35podcast. We have our favorite products shopmy.us/forever35. We do have a newsletter Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 or email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. All right, here's Stephanie.
Kate: Stephanie, welcome to Forever35. This is very exciting. Doree knows you already, but for me, this is an Instagram follow coming to life. So I am giddy to have you on the pod.
Doree: And I've been talking up your book for months.
Kate: Yes, she has. Yes she has. And it's great.
Doree: It's really fun to be able to actually get to talk to you about it now.
Stephanie: Thank you guys so much. I mean, likewise, I'm also Instagram following come to life with you guys. Oh, I dunno if that was politically or dramatically correct way to say it,
Kate: But that's how we say it.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Kate: Well, we always kick off our pod episodes by asking guests about a self-care practice that they have in their life. And it can truly be anything, but we would love to hear what is resonating for you as self-care right now.
Stephanie: I think that I really enjoy simple small pleasures in life, and I have kind of a running list of them in my head. So my summer ones, which have been the same for a couple of years, are a really, really cold glass of sparkling wine, A same temperature, really good cold brew coffee and a really good plate of fries. If I can go on a Friday or Saturday afternoon and just have, it has to be extra cold though. You know what I mean? I'm very much a fan of sparkling wine. Does not need to be a celebration drink. It could be all the time drink. So I think indulging in a simple pleasure is probably probably my self care. And a perfect Saturday is doing that and then spending the rest of the day just lounging and reading, which can't do as much anymore now that I have the 10 month old. But it's okay.
Kate: I love that you have to borrow a term from TikTok beverage goblin energy with these self-care choices because I am a perf I beverages all day long and I like the ice cold brew and then an icy sparkling wine.
Stephanie: I think that's just why I like summer because I feel like the beverage, all beverages taste better in the summer. I'm actually not. I do know people who are beverage goblins and I don't self identify as that.
Kate: I do so respect, I respect that.
Stephanie: But I do find very sim. I feel like a lot of my simple pleasures are beverages, so that makes me kind of reevaluate.
Kate: Interesting. Okay. No, wait, not to get too specific. And then we will talk about influencing, but I do want to know when it comes to a french fry, are you like a steak fry person? Are you a crinkle cut in your dream fries?
Doree: Are you a McDonald's fry type?
Kate: Well, I mean,
Stephanie: No, no. I mean, think honestly, my absolute favorite is waffle fries, but you don't really see them in the wild that often. You kind of have to seek them out. Honestly, I just kind of an in between, not a steak, really fat one, but not a super skinny one either. Just the middle of the road also. And
Kate: I'm have a rectangular shape
Stephanie: And I'm also very well known in my family and friends among them as being a dip connoisseur, which makes me sound like the guy on only murders in the building. I just realize. But I love any olis or fancy ketchups or anything like that, leva hummus. So also the fry is usually a good thing to put dips on. I would say
Doree: It's a good vehicle for a dip,
Stephanie: Right? Yeah. Good vehicle for a dip. Yep,
Doree: Yep, yep. Well, Stephanie, you wrote a book called Swipe Up for More Inside the Unfiltered Lives of Influencers, which not to brag, but you asked me to blurb it and I did, and I did that because I loved the book so much.
Stephanie: Thank you.
Doree: Yeah, it was so great. And I think as a culture, we all, well, I don't want to say we all, but I think as a culture, a lot of people have a certain fascination with influencers and you really kind of tapped into that and explored it. And I loved how you got so personal with so many with these influencers. It was really well done. So thank you for writing it everyone please buy it.
Stephanie: Thank you for blurbing it. Thank you.
Doree: So let's talk about your book and about influencers. And this was an area that you know, had been covering for a long time. It's not like this interest came out of nowhere. I mean, you probably wrote the iconic takedown of LuLaRoe, so this is
Stephanie: My claims the same.
Doree: Yeah, this is all kind of of a piece, but could you talk a little bit just for the benefit of our readers who probably or of our readers, of our listeners who probably have not had a chance to read the book. Could you talk a little bit about where this interest came from and when you started to think about the book, why you kind of approached it in the way that you did?
Stephanie: I have to give a lot of credit to my editor at Penguin Mary Son because she really guided the book in a way that ultimately I think made it into the best thing it could be by really encouraging me to focus on just a few people and going really in depth with them. Which I think my initial impulse was like I wanted to a book on the influencer industry. And so I need to cover every single facet of the influencer industry, which I think is something that a lot of authors struggle with and also a lot of journalists struggle with. And I tend to think as a culture writer that you can really show, not tell in a lot of these situations. And you can do that. You can highlight an industry or an issue or cultural impact by really just going deep and telling one person's story or a few people's story rather than interviewing 50 influencers and trying to distill one singular message out of all of that. So I got interested in covering influencers for work because I was working at Buzzfeed News with you. And as you know, Buzzfeed News, one of the great things about it was they really just encouraged you to experiment and to really follow your passions and your interests and try anything and see if it works. And I had been running a team that was essentially essentially doing viral news, trending news, and we were just always kind of trying to look for what would pop off, what people would be interested in, what people would want to share. And I had been really interested in Instagram influencers specifically who, most of which started as bloggers. And I had been really obsessed with bloggers right after I graduated from college and really became a rabbit hole that I spent a ton of time going down, had a job where I worked alone overnights. And I just remember spending so much time on Google reader reading blogs and just almost communing with people online in that way as a foyer because I suppose I didn't have anyone to talk to in real life. And so by the time I was at buzzfeed and I had been running this trending team, I had been following a lot of these people for seven or eight years and I kind of had this light bulb moment where I realized that while some YouTubers were being covered and some other online celebrities were being covered, there really weren't a lot of people talking about Instagram influencers and that style of content creator. And it really was as simple as me just going, well, this is something I'm interested in. A lot of my friends and I talk about it or text about it or gossip about it when we see each other. Why don't I try to write about an influencer drama on Buzzfeed and see if it works. And the first thing I read written a couple of stories, but the first true Instagram influencer story I ever wrote was about this woman who pub, she was a cottage core before cottage core influencer. She had this a-frame house and she lived in the woods and she wrote this very long detailed story about giving birth to her daughter alone in the woods, which I was like, okay. And she had put out this book on foraging a rest, a cookbook on foraging, how to Forage in your own Woods. I remember and Cook and I was on the internet and people were saying that basically a lot of the instructions she gave in the book were not correct and could also be dangerous because she was telling people to forage for mushrooms. So I reached out to the publisher and kind of wrote up this drama and it was just went bananas. People were reading it, people were sharing it, I was getting emails and comments, and the publisher actually ended up taking the book down, which was crazy and I'm sorry to her for that. But it was really just, that was the first time that I ever took something that I had been obsessed about in this world on the internet and wrote about it in a journalistic style. And that was the off to the races. After that, I just really started writing a lot about internet culture and influencers. And then as I said, when I first started talking to my editor about doing the book, I really just wanted to examine how much this industry impacts us, especially I would say young women in my generation and your generation and younger generation, and just try to see how have these people impacted culture and money and shopping habits and all that kind of stuff. And at the time, the really big nonfiction book was Three Women by Lisa Taio. And when I was talking to Mary about it, she was saying, I really want you to go deep. I want you to focus only a few people. And I was like, okay, so we could do three Women for Influencers, which the book is not anything like three women. But that was the original kind of idea in my head, just really telling the story, trying to tell the story of the cultural and sociological and economic impacts of influencers by telling the story of three influencers. So that was the original idea for the book.
Doree: I think that was really smart, a really smart approach.
Stephanie: Thank you.
Doree: Because it, it's, first of all, I think it makes for a more readable and compelling story, and I think it's it readers want to get into other people's lives. And you did such a good job at that. And I think, like you said, if you had tried to go very broad, it would've felt kind of more dry. So
Stephanie: Yeah, thank you. One of my favorite writers in the feature space is Eli Salo from Washington Post on New York Times, and he just does such an incredible job of telling the story of one issue through one person. And so that's what I was really trying to do. And I think also I was trying to make it as readable as possible simply because I honestly had not read very much nonfiction when I first had the idea to write the book, and I kind of put myself on a homework assignment that last three years of just reading. That was the first thing I did was I just read a ton
Doree: Oh gosh, I love that narrative.
Stephanie: Yeah. And really I feel like that was the thing that taught me the most about what I wanted to do and how I could make something like this. Actually, I think originally I was like, I do want to do this and I think this is important, but how do I make this something that people actually, people like me actually want to read, my peers actually want to read. And I thought that really just trying to dive deep into someone's story would be the most readable thing for me. Yeah, I read so many narrative non-fiction books. I actually mostly exclusively listened to non-fiction because I just find that easier after reading for work all day, a bunch of nonfiction. But yeah, so yeah, that's kind of what I was hoping for.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: So you take us to Utah, which I feel like is at the heart of when we talk about influencer culture, especially when it comes to white women influencers, it's Utah that is the Hollywood of influencers for many, many
Stephanie: Absolutely.
Kate: Could you, for people who are, what the hell are they talking about? What is the deal with Utah Mormon influencers and the kind of evolution of the stereotypical white female influencer that I think kind of embodies that Utah look? And also, I mean, it's not just a look, right? When you're an influencer, every part of your life in many ways becomes a, you're selling it or to commodity. So what does it mean to be one of these big influencers, either, either some that you mentioned in the book or just of that culture?
Stephanie: I think one of the big questions that a lot of people have is most, if I would, I don't want to say most a big percentage, an outsize percentage of the people who got really famous early for being influencers, who became really some of the biggest names and influencers at the beginning of the industry were white Mormon women from Utah to the point where out here on the East coast, a lot of people have never met someone who is l d s. So it's like it's a very outsized population in this one industry. And there's been a lot of speculation over the years as to why that is. And I have a couple of theories that I break down in the book, but I think the most simplest explanation is many of the women who really became huge influencers who were a part of this population were kind of caught between two worlds where a lot of them are around my age. They grew up in the nineties where it was very much girl power, you could do anything. Girls were very encouraged to go to school and really dream big. I mean, I'm sure other people earlier were, but that was something that I really felt growing up. And they were kind of caught between that and this culture where they aren't forced to stay home and marry young and have kids young, but it is something that they're raised with and is important in their culture. And what one of the husbands of influencers I profiled explained to me was just because these were women who chose in their early twenties to settle down and have kids as didn't mean that they lost that entrepreneurial spirit that a lot of women were ingrained with and didn't mean that many of them were highly educated. They had gone to college and now they were in this box of being a wife and a mom. And simultaneously a lot of brands, the ideal model for a brand, especially a parent brand, is someone like, let's be real, a hot young, white Mormon mom. Not necessarily Mormon, but just a hot young mom. And so I think what ended up happening was a couple of people started blogging because it was just a thing to do at the time. And then once they realized that they were getting traction and couldn't actually make a business out of it, they had that time and they had the will to really build it into a sustainable business that I think maybe people would I have if they were more settled or if they had already had a career or if they were having kids later in life. And it was just this perfect marriage of these really ambitious young women who were savvy on the internet, who were good at marketing themselves and brands who were like, yeah, this is amazing. I want to send this really beautiful young mom all of my products. So she'll sell them to her followers. And then I think then it just kind of snowballed from there. When I asked the people I was interviewing, why do you think there are so many Mormon women who became influencers? They were like, well, why do you think there's so many startups in Silicon Valley? It's just like one begets the next against the next. And I think if you're someone who you know, see that this girl down the street is making a million dollars a year blogging, and as far as you can tell, she is just the same as you are. You know, guys went to the same schools, your kids go to the same schools, you live on the same street. Why if she can do it, why can't I? And so it was just the next person started and the next person, the next person, and it really just blew up to the point where, I mean, the area of Utah where so many of these people live, it truly is almost like a mini Silicon Valley for influencers where a large percentage of the children of the parents at this woman's school are influencers. And it's kind of crazy, but I think it, it was just kind of this perfect storm where everything came together very, and they all worked very well together.
Doree: Well, and as you mentioned it, I would say the vast majority, if not all of these women are very conventionally attractive, white leaning into these kind of old fashioned ideas about domesticity and femininity. A lot of them have these big families of blonde children. And it does in a lot of ways, that particular world of influencer seems to be tapping into this nostalgia for a past that does not include a lot of people. And I think it's not coincidental that those are the people who have been rewarded with audience, with brand deals, et cetera, et cetera. And as you write about in the book, they also get backlash. But yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. I actually have been thinking recently about why so many people are so fascinated, even people without kids by these very Americana families on Instagram. And I think it has something to do with the anxiety around American motherhood because I think there's so many women who, even if they don't have kids, are kid curious where someone in their mid twenties, for example, might not want to have kids for a long time, but they might want kids eventually. But there's really hard to be a parent in America. It's really hard to be a mom in America. And I think there's almost something soothing about seeing someone who seems to be doing it really well. And I think on the flip side, a lot of moms get a lot of catharsis out of absolutely hating the motherhood that these women portray in a way, because I think that's something that, especially I've noticed over the past few years, there seems to be a lot of anger and people seem to get a lot out of tearing down this ideal of an Instagram mom in a way that I feel like for them is almost cathartic. So I think there's a lot of being taken out of the images that are put out, I think.
Kate: Is it projecting, do you think?
Stephanie: I don't, honestly, I've been thinking a lot about it since I became a mom because there is just this, there's so many think pieces and there's so much dialogue around moms on the internet right now and how Instagram moms paint an idealized brush, but then if they do get real, then people also get mad at them for that. And I don't know, I just think it's a really fascinating thing that I feel like people just really enjoy tearing down the images that mommy bloggers put on the internet. I don't know, what do you guys think? It's just, I've been thinking about it a lot since I became a mom, because personally, I don't enjoy looking at someone like who these cottage court influencers where they post about their 15 kids and how perfect their kids are. I like to watch that just out of a strange fascination. I'm like, that couldn't be me, but good for you. But it never makes me feel bad as a mother, and I've just been think something I've been thinking about a lot. That's a very half baked thought, but I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that.
Kate: I don't know. Not that I don't have thoughts. It's more that I don't know if my thoughts are coherent or if they actually work together. I feel like I have certainly partaken in tearing down in getting or getting angry at influencers on the internet for some reason at what they portray. But I also do think that they are one of the most underappreciated industries that was essentially self-made by the women in it. If this was a bunch of tech bros doing something, it would be heralded. And I do also find influencers helpful. I do rely more on influencers than I do necessarily sources where I would've maybe gotten information in the past. And I mean more for what sneakers should I buy or what bag makes the most sense for a carry-on. They are genuinely influencing in a way that does feel like a useful tool. But I think my relationship to social media and in influential influencers is always kind of evolving and is not always the healthiest, but I don't necessarily think it's their responsibility for me to have a healthy relationship with them. I don't know. Now I'm walking in circles. I don't know.
Stephanie: No, I know. I feel the same way. I feel like it's, it's really hard. And I think that's one of the things that I try to at least make people think about in the book is how much authenticity do influencers owe us? How much of themselves are they required to give in order to be accepted? One of the things that I think about a lot is one of the people that I interviewed in my book, Caitlin Covington, she has been criticized for seeming too perfect or whitewashing her life or not showing the bad parts of her life. And for her, that was very much a defense mechanism where she really, for a long time, didn't share a lot about her personal life or didn't really get into the nitty gritty because she couldn't handle the criticisms that would inevitably arise. But then eventually she realized that the only thing, people started to require more and more authenticity, which is giving more and more of her personal life as well. And it's kind of like this devil's bargain where you have to, in order to keep the relationship with your audience, you keep still have to show more and more of yourself. And I mean, people just have to decide for themselves if that's worth it.
Doree: Well, and more and more of their kids, which I feel like is has, I feel like now people are really having these conversations that they hadn't been having in the past, partly because some of the first influencers or bloggers kids are now of an age where they can talk about what the experience of being the kid of a early mom blogger was like. And it's not great. I mean, do you think that the industry is having a reckoning, or do you in this regard, or do you think it's just more, a few individuals are making these choices and on the whole, it hasn't really changed that much,
Stephanie: To be honest. I've been waiting for that reckoning for a really long time. I mean, this was something that people were complaining about when I first started reading blogs back in like 2012. People were saying, oh, this is really immoral. People shouldn't be using their kids for content. People shouldn't be putting their kids in ads, yada, yada yada. And it wasn't something that people really ever started to talk about, at least until I would say like 20 17, 20 18. And I've written about this on buzzfeed. I wrote about this in the book, but I really thought the tipping point would be the whole my Gustafer story, which was the woman who gave away her child who she had adopted from China, God. And that story was a huge story, and it was kind of caused, I would say, universal outrage. And I wrote at the time on Buzzfeed that I thought that it might be some of this tipping point for people to say, we need to do something about this. We really need to start examining this issue seriously and put some sort of guidelines into place for how children can be featured in content. And that didn't happen. I mean, that was in 2020, so that was almost three years ago. And I talked to a lawmaker in Washington state last year who had been involved in some preliminary instruction conversations about doing some sort of bill in Washington state. And she was really candid with me that it was just extremely hard to get off the ground for one of the reasons why I think lawmakers still don't really understand, and they still don't really get it. But it's like you also think about there's, we haven't solved this issue on a macro level either. I mean, children in TV I think is still an issue we're parsing out, even though there are some laws, obviously, I feel like the discussions around Janette McCurdy's book coming out really kind of re-sparked like, Hey, is it ethical to use children in tv? Is it ethical to use children in reality shows? And yeah, I do think that over the past couple of years, I have seen more people at least talk about it. Whether that's going to translate to any actual real action, I think remains to be seen. And I think it's something that I would love to see discussed on legislative level, because I think that on basically right now, the only people who have the control over whether or not their child is exploited on the internet is a child's parents, which is a really bad situation because you should never trust a child's parents. I mean, you would hope that a child's parents would have their best interests, but unfortunately, that's not the case. So I think mean that's why we have laws for everything. But there's part of me that wonders that if we're not going to see any meaningful change until I don't know more people in our generation and are in charge, which considering the population of our government officials, hopefully going to be soon, but maybe not. But I do think that a lot, it's going to be really interesting. I think the next decade or so is going to be a really interesting time in this space because we are going to see a huge wave of, I would say, early blogger and early YouTuber children who are turning 18. And it's going to be interesting to see what they say, because on the one hand, I think what people are predicting for a long time probably will come to pass, which a lot of people will feel exploited by their parents and feel like they should have gotten some sort of compensation for making money for their parents, essentially. But there's a really interesting thing about Gen Z that I keep thinking about, which is they are so open on the internet that I think some people might surprise us and say, I don't really care. I mean, you think about the way that Gen Z acts on TikTok with their own personal traumas, sharing them and just being super open. So I think that, I don't know. I think that that's been interesting to watch because there's a part of me that's like, maybe these blogger kids won't care at all because the internet is just life to them. I don't know is that, but I still don't think that that means we shouldn't do anything about it. But yeah, I do think that we're really coming up on that time. But I would say the majority of the kids in this group are late teens, preteens to late teens. So we still have a few years to go.
Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: I am wondering, what did you find in your reporting that surprised you?
Stephanie: I think it kind of varies by person, but I think overall influencers are, at the end of the day, very normal people in a way that I think public figures really aren't, in the sense that they could really just put their phone down and it's like that goes away. And I think I saw that the most with Shannon, where her life was just so normal that it was kind of hard to believe that this is someone who has an extremely long and ups and downs and combative online life that a lot of people are obsessed with and obsess over. But when I was with her, she really was just a normal mom, and it was almost like if we didn't have our phones, that world didn't exist. And that was a big kind of shock to the system to me because her husband was very nonchalant about the whole thing. And his wife has all of these haters on the internet who have threatened them with real harm. And he's like, well, it's just noise. Just don't look at it. Just turn your phone off. And for those of us who can be a little too online, that was very shocking to me. And then I guess my second answer is just how much money you can make, which is a lot.
Doree: Yeah. Stephanie, what do you think the future of influencing holds?
Stephanie: I think that the people who are coming up, the Gen Z influencers are so much more savvy and are just like, so they're hitting the ground running in a way that people before them really couldn't do because they kind of really had to build the industry from scratch and lay the groundwork. And I think influencers, before they had a harder time jumping from platform to platform or medium to medium writing to video to photo. And younger influencers are just so, they're like chameleons. I feel like they could really express themselves in so many formats. I know people who are on TikTok making reels, but are on making TikTok, but making reels, who're making static posts who are doings, and they can just jump from one to next very seamlessly. I think for older influencers and more established influencers, almost all of them are using, trying to use their platforms as a jumping out point to build a business, whether that's a podcast or a brand. And I think younger influencers are really doing that as well, where influencing is almost step one of a greater career that you could have. Step one is building your platform. And then step two is, okay, I'm going to sell merch. I'm going to start a coffee line, I'm going to start a podcast. I'm going to start a media brand. So I think we're going to see a lot more of that. And yeah, I'm dying to see what the next TikTok is going to be. So I guess we'll have to say too for that because I have a feeling it's right around the corner because TikTok is getting old, so when's the next thing going to come up?
Kate: Oh, God. That's so much to have to keep up with.
I know. But it's amazing.
Stephanie: Although I can't really think what it would be. I mean, they tried audio only, but that didn't with Clubhouse, but that didn't really work, so we'll see.
Kate: I know, but it's true. I think about my kids who are 10 and 12 and how TikTok is huge right this second, but by the time they get to high school, it might not be the same. I have the same thought of what is next after this? There will be something,
Stephanie: No, I think it's going to be something fun. I don't know what. But I think that what's next for influencing as well is the recognition that it's a viable career option. Because one thing, as I've been doing some pre-interviews or whatever for this book, I get a lot of, oh, my bosses and so has a 15 year old daughter, and she says she wants to be an influencer, and it's ruining his life. And why do you know? So many kids want to be influencers. It's the downfall of society. And to me, it's like, well, have you paid attention to the news for the last few years? I mean, literally every single industry is laying off people in masks right now because of a recession that hasn't even happened yet. And Gen Z just has to look at millennials and see how tumultuous our corporate life can be. And content creation offers a really unique opportunity to, if you want to be a realtor, instead of going and working for some real estate firm, you can start a TikTok and build your brand and then start your own firm. Literally there so many ways, there's so ways to, it's really this key to entrepreneurship in a really interesting way that I think that Gen Z is really tapping into and saying, I don't need to go get an entry level job at X, Y, Z firm. I can build my brand on social media and then build a company that I and own it and really make something of myself. And I think for a lot of young people in this day and age, that's a way more attractive option. And so I think that that's going to lead to a lot more legitimization of the career path, but probably not for a few years.
Doree: Well, Stephanie, I, I feel like I could talk to you for another few hours about this because it is an ongoing fascination of mine, but we will let you go. This was so great to get to talk to you about this and so excited for your book release. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you and read your work and subscribe to your newsletter, et cetera, et cetera?
Stephanie: Thank you. The easiest way to see what I love to is I'm on Instagram @StephanieMcNeil and I post everything there. So that's the best way to get ahold of me.
Doree: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much.
Kate: Thank you.
Doree: For coming on the show.
Stephanie: Thank you guys.
Kate: Well, Doree, consider me influenced again, or I guess consider you influenced again, we're all influenced. We've all been influenced.
Doree: We've all been influenced. It's true.
Kate: I really felt like one thing I really appreciated about Steph's book, but also I've been a follow of hers on Instagram for a long time, is that I do find she's a very critical, thoughtful approach to influencer culture, but also I think very empathetic.
Doree: Yes, yes. It's really interesting because I feel like there are some people who write about influencers from a sort of condescending perspective, and that's definitely not her. But I think she understands and does appreciate influencer culture, but she's also not afraid to be critical of it.
Kate: Yes, exactly. And she has introduced me to a world, there's so much of influencer culture that I don't even know I am.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: It's like you're influenced by certain people, but there are so many other folks out there influencing.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And dare I say, I am now your influencer.
Doree: You are. I mean, you've always been my influencer, but
Kate: I mean, likewise, I honestly was in Costco yesterday. I know everybody classic me, and I walked by the CoQ10 vitamins and I was like, ah, Doree, just walking.
Doree: All right. So we influence each other.
Kate: And can I also just say that my Costco, listen, if you're rolling around and you see Eddie Bauer PJ's or Banana Republic pants, hop on those trains because I've done both and they're both great.
Doree: Oh, okay. Hot tip. From the one Costco influencer.
Kate: They had not very cute tree torn sneakers too, but not in my size, so
Doree: Oh, bummer.
Kate: Well, my intention this week has nothing to do with Costco. But I will share I, well, last week I kind of made the commitment to get back to my early bedtime because I have been really doing the bedtime sabotage scroll thing.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And it has gotten better. I really, I've made a concerted effort, but also I have found that when I do the thing where I don't let myself go to sleep early, I get into bed too late instead of panicking, I say to myself, I forgive myself. And then I try to repeat that and fall asleep, very tender moments just alone me in the dark, 1:30 in the morning as I try to go to sleep. But I'm trying,
Doree: Okay.
Kate: And this week I need to figure out a social media break for the summer, But do it realistically. It's not realistic for me not to look at social media, but I also need to, honestly, it makes my brain feel busy in a way that I would like to pull back from. And this all probably ties into me having a hard time falling asleep. So I'm trying to think of how, what is realistic, what tools actually work for me to take a break from social media and what things don't, and just try to spend the summer being a little bit more present and a little bit more less mental clutter. What we've been talking about clutter lately. And mental clutter is something I've only just started really thinking about, but that is what kind of happens when I consume a lot of TikTok and Instagram. It's like all of a sudden my brain is filled with all this stuff and I don't quite know how to clean it out.
Doree: Interesting. Okay.
Kate: So that's where I'm at for this week. How about you?
Doree: Okay. Well, last week my intention was to stop over commiting and set some hard boundaries. And I have been nailing this.
Kate: I'm so proud of you. That's amazing.
Doree: I just had a hard boundary with Kate Spencer yesterday.
Kate: Oh yes. You were like, I am not working on this day. And I was like,
Doree: I'm not doing this call. And I was like, let me make this clear.
Kate: No, no, but what if we just wedged it in? And Doree was like, I am not doing this. I was like, oh, this is a good practice for me to understand when someone's setting a boundary with me and not just trying to root move things around Ding Dong.
Doree: But then I offered another solution that I actually think will be better.
Kate: Yes. We figured it out. I appreciate you setting a boundry with me
Doree: We figured it out, We worked together.
Kate: That was really good work.
Doree: Thank you so much.
Kate: Were you able to have the day, were you able to set up that day to work for you in the way that you needed?
Doree: A little bit. That's gross. It wasn't a, wasn't like a total wash. I didn't walk away from the day being like, whoa, that was a waste. I do think sometimes I have outsized expectations
Kate: Totally.
Doree: For those days. And so that's something that I'm just kind of constantly working on. But I did work on some stuff that I wanted to work on and thought about some other stuff, and
Kate: That's Awesome.
Doree: So I think it was pretty good. It was pretty good. Yeah. So I don't know. It's been an interesting practice for me to really stop and think about. I think because part of it is, when it comes to social stuff, I always feel, I don't know, I always feel like I should want to do social stuff. Also, and I said this to you the other night when you were discussing a social thing that you were debating whether or not to go to, and I have lately been having this little life is short sort of feeling.
Kate: You know what? That really made an impact on me because I ended up doing the thing that I was feeling nervous about. It was more my social anxiety getting in the way. And you said to me, life is short. We should really try to make an effort to see people we care about. And I was like, oh, you're right. I'm going to navigate this, the awkwardness and go do just that.
Doree: And how was it actually, I don't think we ever discussed how it actually was.
Kate: It was great. I'm glad I went still. I'm always going to feel socially nervous or worried that I'm not supposed to be somewhere. That's my own shit to deal with. But yeah, I had to say to myself, you're a lot of what I, I'm projecting that outward. It might be what is actually being offered to me. Totally. So anyway, Thank you for that.
Doree: I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I've just been having those, not to be super morbid, but maybe this is just middle age.
Kate: I don't think it's morbid.
Doree: Start having these thoughts of, I want to see the people that I care about and I don't want to just, I don't know. I don't want to make excuses for not seeing people that aren't like if I'm really sick or if I'm really, you know what I mean? But if I'm just sort of, I don't know if I feel like it, I want to kind of power through that. So that's just something I've been thinking about, but I also need to square that with my very real need for alone time and not over commiting. so
Kate: totally.
Doree: I dunno. That's an interesting, and especially coming out of the pandemic when all those decisions were made for us because we couldn't go anywhere.
Kate: Yeah, totally.
Doree: And now we're like, oh, we have to figure this out on our own. Ugh.
Kate: Yeah. Ugh. That's right.
Doree: Yeah. I don't know. Just interesting. Anyway, this week I have a very simple intention, which is to find a new book. I feel like I've been in a little bit of a reading rut lately. Well, listen everyone, thanks for listening Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir, and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Talk to you all again soon. Bye.
Kate: Bye. Bye.