Episode 259: Body Liberation with Chrissy King
Kate attempts to dip her toe into a deeper reading pool and Doree’s heart sings for a mystery. Then, writer and powerlifter Chrissy King joins them (for the second time!) to discuss her new book The Body Liberation Project: How Understanding Racism and Diet Culture Helps Cultivate Joy and Build Collective Freedom, how to stop giving diet culture time and space in our brains, and food’s place in our lives beyond fuel.
Photo Credit: Tiny Reparations Books
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Transcript
Kate: Hello Friends, and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about all the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We're not, but we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: How do you do? Friendly reminder, you can visit our website for Forever35podcast for links to everything we talk about here on the show. You can find us on Instagram @Forever35podcast, and there is a Forever35 community living over on Facebook groups where the password is serums.
Doree: You can also shop our favorite products shopmy.us/Forever35. Our newsletter is at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. You can call or text us at (781) 591-0390, and you can email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: And if you enjoy our show, we always appreciate a review or a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Thank you very much for considering.
Doree: Yeah, we don't mention that that often, but we do always appreciate it,
Kate: Especially because sometimes the folks who are more inclined to leave a review are the folks who are not into you, which I respect.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: But it also helps when the people who do the show leave a review.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: So thank you.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: Thank you.
Doree: Totally
Kate: apologies for the scratchy voice, but I have, well, I have an ear infection allegedly, according to the doctor I saw at Urgent Care, but then it just kind of bloomed into its own kind of cold head cold type thing.
Doree: Ay, yay.
Kate: It's a major ayy. It's so silly. But it really knocks me on my butt. Just really, it's wipe me's not,
Doree: Why is it it silly Kate?
Kate: Because I still have a lot of ingrained capitalistic tendencies in which I poo ppo my health in order to keep working. You know, think about how sick days are never encouraged and how we used to win perfect attendance awards at school and how we've long been taught to put aside caring for ourselves when we're sick in order to keep chugging along. So that's just all deeply ingrained inside of me.
Doree: I would just like to point out that here on Forever35, we do encourage sick days.
Kate: We do.
Doree: I tried to get Kate to take a sick day on Friday.
Kate: Oh yeah. You did.
Doree: Absolutely refused. So
Kate: Yeah, that's true. I did.
Doree: We're Trying,
Kate: You were really pushing it.
Doree: Yeah. We are trying to challenge these capitalistic structures.
Kate: What's interesting, I didn't feel that bad on that day. I did not feel bad it kicked in this weekend. But also, I think it's different when you work for yourself and you have to consider the juggling of things that when a reschedule happens, that I honestly, on the other end can make things more challenging. So that was my mindset going into that conversation.
Doree: I mean, look, that's fair,
Kate: But I didn't, didn't feel that bad.
Doree: And then I guess what I'm saying is I don't want you to think that you can't take a sick day in this working relationship.
Kate: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Doree: I might have been a bit hyperbolic, but that is just my general point that I want to get across in the appreciate that Same way that when I was sick, I took a sick day and it was annoying. We had to move some stuff around. We had to reschedule a guest, which is never ideal. But you couldn't know.
Kate: You quiet physically couldn't talk.
Doree: I couldn't talk. So that was a challenge when you have to record a podcast nonetheless.
Kate: Oh my gosh. Speaking of recording podcasts, can I tell you what my sixth grader told me
Doree: What
Kate: At school? They were Googling each other's parents. Just
Doree: What?
Kate: And not even her and her close friends who I would feel like, who know me, and I know my profession and what I do, but just kids. And she was hanging with kids and they all have Chromebooks that are given through their public school, and they were just Googling people's parents. And I had a real moment of like, oh no, why have I lived my life on the internet for the last 23 years?
Doree: This is a consequence of living my life on the internet that I'd never thought about.
Kate: Yeah. It's come up before our kids have Googled us, Anthony and me, and they know what we do. Or sometimes they'll be, I read, they'll pick up one of my books and be like, I read some of your book the other day. They'll do stuff like that. Yeah. I Mean, They live in the same home that I live in and the books that I've written are on my bookshelf. But Then I was like, oh my God, for five years I've been creating a very intimate podcast, partially about myself that not only could my kids listen to any of their friends, any of the kids that they go to school with, and then I was like, fuck, what if somebody uses shit I have created to not bully them, but just, I don't know. I started to get really a little bit freaked out by being an on semi online person as my kids are starting to come into the age when they or their peers will just be able to search me on Instagram.
Doree: Ooh.
Kate: Kind of Yikes. Kind of a yikes.
Doree: Yikes kind of yikes.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. It's coming for you. Not yet, but Henry's very smart. He'll probably figure it out a year.
Doree: Oh boy.
Kate: He'll be like, mama, what do you do to take care of yourself? I was listening to a podcast.
Doree: Mama Is Your Favorite Self-care practice.
Kate: Anyway, I don't know how I got on that tangent, but I was just kind of thinking, I mean, and it's interesting because we live in a world now where everybody's online. It doesn't feel as weird. Yes. I guess
Doree: Yes.
Kate: But I still felt Like I, strangely like naked.
Doree: Right. Because yeah, I mean, I Google kids' parents all the time.
Kate: Of Course.
Doree: But there's something different about the child Googling the parents.
Kate: Yes. Yeah. There is. There's something. And even worse, like a kid who I don't even really know, just Googling me
Doree: Totally
Kate: Is strange, but totally within their rights.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: It's on me, not them.
Doree: Sure.
Kate: Ugh. I know.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: I know.
Doree: I'll add that to the list of things to look forward to.
Kate: Things to panic about at two in the morning when you wake up.
Doree: Yep, yep, yep.
Kate: Yeah, that was just in my brain. I also just wanted to recommend a book that I just finished today, Doree.
Doree: Oh, okay. I'm listening.
Kate: The title of the book is Token Black Girl. It's a memoir by Danielle Prescott. I loved it. I listened to the audiobook and I know you as a person who has a lot of Libro FM audiobook credits, you were always looking for something to listen to. It was really great. It's a great memoir.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: I think you might enjoy it because she talks specifically about working kind of in fashion and media, especially in some of the times that we did, and it was just a really engaging, thought provoking book. So if you're looking for a new read, that is my suggestion. Just finished it.
Doree: Okay. That is good to know. Thank you. Kate,
Kate: Do you have any books that you're reading right now? We haven't checked in about that.
Doree: So I just finished a friend's book, that Alyssa's book. I just finished Alyssa's book,
Kate: Alyssa Sussman, everybody author
Doree: I just wanted to hear the release date. Yeah. So Alyssa Sussman, who wrote a wonderful book called Funny You Should Ask, has a new book coming out called Once More With Feeling Great Title comes out at the end of May 30th. It's a delightful romcom. What's the trope called? Of reuniting with a lost
Kate: Second Chance.
Doree: That's Second Chance. That's it. Yeah. I would say it's a second chance story.
Kate: And it's also a bit of an lovers to enemies to lovers.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Among other things.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: Yeah. It's great.
Doree: And there's like a whole musical theater. It takes place in the world of musical theater, a world that I am somewhat familiar with, but not deeply enmeshed in. And as I said to Alyssa, there were several references that I did not, that I know I didn't get, but it didn't take away from my enjoyment of the book.
Kate: Oh, interesting.
Doree: But if you are a musical theater person, I think you will enjoy a lot of the references.
Kate: Yes. It also kind of does a great job of capturing the pop music of the aughts
Doree: Oh, totally. Yes.
Kate: Because the two love interests were former teen pop stars.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Which is also really fun.
Doree: So I just finished that and let me see if I have anything else queued up.
Kate: Yeah, what's in the queue for you?
Doree: What is in the queue for me? Oh, I just took Pamela Anderson's memoir out from the library.
Kate: Ooh, that's going to be a good one.
Doree: Love Pamela. And I did just read a great thriller. Did I talk about this already? On the pod? Everybody knows by Jordan Harper.
Kate: I don't think you did. Everybody knows.
Doree: So this book, everybody Knows by Jordan Harper, it's a mystery slash thriller. It's set in LA and it's set in the world of crisis pr.
Kate: Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.
Doree: So this is a world that I am quite familiar with. There's a lot of stuff about the media and PR and in particular crisis PR with Shades of Scandal.
Kate: I love it. You mean TV scandal? Like the TV show?
Doree: Yes. Yeah, scandal, the TV show. And I really enjoyed it. It's a fast read and yeah, I thought it was great.
Kate: Good hot tip Doree.
Doree: So that is a fun, that's a fun one. And that's the kind of thing where I think there are some inside baseball Hollywood things, because the guy who wrote it is also a TV writer. So there's some deep cuts that I think will go over the heads of people who are not maybe married to a member of the Writer's Guild. But I don't think it will take away from your enjoyment of the book.
Kate: Crisis PR sounds interesting.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, it is one of those books where you're like, Ooh, are these good people?
Kate: Yeah,
Doree: Not really, but I thought it was a good read.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: So if you're in the mood for a kind of fast paced contemporary set in present Day la, but has a sort of noirish vibe,
Kate: How did you stumble into that?
Doree: I think I read about it. I want to say I read about it in the time in New York Times in one of their round, they do these periodic roundups of new crime books. I think they do them monthly. And I think I read about it there.
Kate: Well, I still have yet to pick up a mystery.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: I know, I, you know what? I just finished another Ice Planet Barbarian, Ruby Dixon Alien Romance, and then I just started a new romance called Honey and Spice, and then I finished Danielle's book. I clearly, I've got to make room for mystery, but I don't know how. I don't know how,
Doree: I'm trying to think of a good gateway mystery for you. And I'm wondering if it should be one that has romance in it.
Kate: I would like that. Yes, there has to, because otherwise I spend the whole book imagining if the two characters could get together.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: And writing that book in my head. So I need a, I'm
Doree: I'm Going to do something. And do you want, oh, this will be fun. Do you want something set in the present day? Do you want historical?
Kate: I don't care.
Doree: You don't care?
Kate: Okay. No.
Doree: All right.
Kate: The sexier the better. I will say.
Doree: The sexier the better. Okay.
Kate: But anytime is fine.
Doree: Sexy mysteries that I've read, I mean, everybody knows it's kind of sexy, but very dark.
Kate: Everybody Knows,
Doree: The one I just read.
Kate: Thats what you just read.
Doree: Yeah. There is a romance in it, but it's like a fucked up romance.
Kate: Yeah, See, here's what I can't get into.
Doree: The problem with mysteries is there's not always a happy ending with the romance especially
Kate: oh yeah. Oh, this is tough. This is tough. Okay.
Doree: There's clearly a resolution, but in terms of romances in mysteries, I would say it's a real crap shoot.
Kate: Its, it can oftentimes, the romantic love interest ends up being the perpetrator or the
Doree: Perpetrator or it's complicated or they die, or it's not the happy happily ever after that. I think if you're used to reading romance, you're going to get, so I just want to be, upfront about that.
Kate: Yeah. This is, Oops, excuse me. This is kind of tough. Does this, I'm sure it does exist. We should put a call out
Doree: Or you know, could just dip outside your comfort zone perhaps,
Kate: I guess. Or
Doree: Maybe you don't have to.
Kate: Could someone write me an enemies to lovers of two warring detectives who then have to solve crimes together and then fall in love while they're solving the crimes? That's like, does that exist?
Doree: Does that exist?
Kate: Is that out there?
Doree: That's a good question. I can't think of one. I mean, here's the other issue. Sorry. Now we're really getting off on a tangent.
Kate: Okay. Okay.
Doree: So many, I would say the vast majority of mysteries have, the detective is a deliberately very fucked up person,
Kate: Of course.
Doree: And often have trouble forming romantic attachments. They're often lone wolf characters.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: And so therefore, when they do form romantic attachments, they're often doomed in some way.
Kate: Well, I did watch the first Epi episode of Lydia Poet on Netflix, which is an Italian show about the first woman lawyer in Italy. And the first scene is her having sex with somebody. So I was like, I'm here. Of course, I was watching it on a plane, so it was slightly horrifying. But there's already a foil in her kind of snarky journalist brother-in-law that I'm like, so that show is kind of scratching the itch. And that's also historical and an Italian. So there's something.
Doree: Did you ever watch Bodyguard? Did you ever watch Bodyguard?
Kate: No, but I heard it's good.
Doree: Okay. It's good. There is a romance in it. It's dark though.
Kate: Okay. I could try it.
Doree: I could try it. But there's some hot, some hot scenes.
Kate: Okay. Okay.
Doree: That's interesting. And it's only six episodes because it's British. Okay.
Kate: All these things are good. These things are good. I need some shows, especially cause I couldn't handle more than one episode of the Last of us, so I just can't handle anything too dark, I think, or too sad. Just can't do it right now.
Doree: Then maybe Skip Body Gaurd.
Kate: Oh no, Doree. No. Oh really? Well,
Doree: It's really good, but I don't want to give too much away. But ultimately I wouldn't call it a feel good.
Kate: That's fair
Doree: Series.
Kate: Okay. I just got to wait for Bridgerton to come back or something.
Doree: Yeah. Ugh. I'll do some more thinking about this, but
Kate: thank you.
Doree: Its a tough, what you might enjoy are the Richard Osmond books, the Thursday Murder Club books. They're like, there's mystery in that they are mysteries and there's a little bit of violence, but ultimately I would describe them as cozy and somewhat gentle.
Kate: Are people kissing?
Doree: It's about old people.
Kate: I don't mind if it's old people kissing. They're the romance of all ages.
Doree: There are romantic relationships in them.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Probably not in the way that you're picturing.
Kate: Not of everybody's getting busy kind of way.
Doree: No, I don't think there's any explicit boning
Kate: Who's written a mystery, a really great mystery with explicit boning. But there's a happy ending for the couple. I realize this is very specific, but literally work together.
Doree: It might not exist.
Kate: Well, maybe I should write it
Doree: Maybe.
Kate: Oh man. Alright. Well
Doree: That took us off a journey.
Kate: We'll figure it out. I know I didn't mean to go there, but I just,
Doree: Oh,
Kate: I would like to broaden my reading horizons. I do have the dream of kind of branching out, but then I just curl back up into my little shell and remember what I like.
Doree: Hey, look, I get it. I mean, I've my toe into romance, but ultimately it's not my preferred genre. And that's okay.
Kate: It is. Okay. Your heart sings for a mystery.
Doree: It does. It really does.
Kate: Well, we're fortunate to have an author on the show today whose book we both loved that is a non-fiction book.
Doree: Neither A romance nor a mystery.
Kate: Yes. United in the non-fiction space. We're actually welcoming our guest, Chrissy King back for a second time. She's been on the podcast before early on in pod history.
Doree: Yeah, isn't that exciting?
Kate: It's very cool. Chrissy is a writer, a speaker, a former strength coach, and an educator with a passion for creating a diverse and inclusive wellness industry. She empowers individuals to stop shrinking, start taking up space and to use their energy to create their specific magic in the world with degrees in social justice and sociology from Marquette University. Chrissy emerges her passion for social justice, with her passion for fitness, to empower members of the wellness industry, to create spaces that allow individuals from all backgrounds to feel seen, welcome, affirmed, and celebrated. Her new book is incredible. It's called The Body Liberation Project, how understanding racism and diet Culture helps cultivate joy and build collective freedom. And it is out now. We had a really wonderful conversation that I think we both enjoyed immensely about all sorts of diet, culture stuff. We get into it.
Doree: We really do get into it,
Kate: And Chrissy's just so full of wisdom and is really thoughtful in her approach to this conversation. So we're very excited to share this chat with you. So why don't we take a break and we'll come back with Chrissy.
Doree: Sounds good.
Kate: Chrissy, welcome to Forever35 and I should say welcome back because you have been on this show before and we're so thrilled to have you here, especially as we get to celebrate and talk about your new book, the Body Liberation Project, which is fantastic.
Chrissy: Oh, thank you for having me. Oh, sorry. No,
Kate: I was going to say everybody better be click in order even before the interview.
Chrissy: Thank you for having me back on. I'm so excited to be back.
Kate: So you may recall that we like to start every conversation off talking about a self-care practice that our guests have in their own lives. And with the caveat that looks like anything and can be anything, is there something that you do that's unique to your own life that you consider self-care for yourself?
Chrissy: I think I do lots of things. I think it kind of varies depending on the season of life right now. I've been very busy and busy and things have been very hectic. So the selfcare practice I've been doing is just literally taking breaks and going for a 10 minute walk so that I just don't sit and do all the things all day straight. So that's really good for me.
Kate: I did that today and just made a point of feeling sunshine on my face was so, I can't remember the last time I had really been outside and paused. But are you still in New York City, correct. In Brooklyn?
Chrissy: Yes, I'm in Brooklyn. Correct. Yes. And honestly, the weather has been super mild this winter, so yeah, from Wisconsin originally. Anyway, so I'm used to the cold. But yeah, I've been going out and just like you said, getting some sun on my face breathing and it doesn't have to be long, but it helps a lot for me.
Doree: Yeah, I feel like my quality of life changed for the better when I really started making an effort to get outside every day, which in Los Angeles shouldn't be hard, but I think the combination of the pandemic and having a small child and I just, there were days, especially during the height of lockdown where I would go multiple days without going outside of my house. And now I really do make a conscious effort to get outside. So can I really feel you on that?
Kate: Can I ask kind of a follow up question that is not, it's not one that we prepared, but it's just something I've been thinking about a lot and I would love to get your point of view on this. Chrissy is the kind of value we place on movement. I find if I just go for a walk around the block in my brain, even though as if we've talked about a lot extensively on this podcast and hopefully we'll talk about with you, I have really been working on my relationship to fitness, diet, culture, all the things. But there still is I think, instinct that has been ingrained in me to be like, oh, a 10 minute walk not good enough. I've got to still do dot, dot, dot. And the kind of levels of tiers of value we prescribe to different kinds of movement. You write about this in your book, but I just wonder if, is that something you still grapple with at times and is there anything that you've kind of implemented that help has helped you kind of refocus when those voices appear?
Chrissy: Absolutely. I grapple with that for a really long time. I don't feel like I do anymore, but for a very long time when you're kind of breaking up with diet culture and it's so ingrained in us that we have to, a workout only counts if we sweat a lot or if it was a certain amount of time or if our body feels very tired. And so it's really hard to just change our narrative about that and our mindset about that. And so one thing that really helped me as I was breaking with diet culture and trying to repair that relationship with exercise is this idea of joy movement for joy and what feels good and trying to listen to our bodies. And I do think that's a practice that takes a lot of time because again, we have this idea of, oh, I didn't do enough, or I'm just being lazy, or whatever it is. And it's a practice to come back to a place self that bodies are really intuitive and that we can trust that feel like, I just want to take a walk today, that is enough. And I don't have to do all these things that are really intense if I'm not in the mood for it, if I don't have the time for it or if I just don't want to. And that movement is movement and really movement brings so much to our lives. And I know for a lot of us, we've really only thought of movement for a long time in terms of how is this shifting my body and changing my body, but going to this practice of like, oh, movement is just good for my mental health and my wellbeing, my sleep, and all of these things. So lemme do what feels good today. And also for me, for example, if I'm really stressed out and I'm feeling exhausted, I don't think the thing that's going to help me feel better is to go really hammer my body more. Maybe it's like, oh, how can I be mindful and maybe I want to do light yoga or walk or just stretch, so I think its a practice that is maybe hard for us to unlearn those things but over time we can get back to that place of what does my body actually desire today
Doree: I want to ask you about that because you said a phrase that I feel like we hear a lot, which is listening to our bodies. And it seems like this is a lot of what your book is about, learning how to trust ourselves when we're listening to our bodies. Because I do feel like I've heard a lot of people say, I listen to my body and it's telling me they don't trust what their body is telling them in a way. And so I was hoping this would kind of be a segue into starting to talk about your really wonderful book. But what would you suggest for people who kind of come to this idea of listening to their bodies with a great deal of fear or skepticism? Yeah.
Chrissy: Yeah. I mean it's super hard because again, that's one of the things about diet culture is when we're really in ingrained in diet culture, we are always looking to someone else for the answers. Someone to tell us what to eat and what not to eat, what food is good and what food is bad, what's the best exercise for fat loss. So what's the best way? Should we be doing intermittent fasting or should we doing keto? Should we be strength training or should we be running? We're always looking for someone else to give us the magic bullet to achieve the body of our dreams. And a lot of times we say it under the guise of, oh, I just want to be healthy. But usually it's at the core it's like, okay, tell me how I can do the thing to look the way that I think I desire to look. And so when we've been doing that for so long, and even for myself, I religiously counted macros for years. So when I was like, oh, this is a problem. This is not coming from a healthy place, I have to stop doing that, even that is really scary. Cause you have been so dependent on this is the formula to keep me looking the way I want to look. And if I let go of that formula, I don't know what's going to happen. And that does feel really scary sometimes. And so for example, when I stopped counting macros, well for one, if you've been counting max for five years, you kind of have a good idea of what you're eating anyways. You don't really need to input everything. But slowly I started thinking about what are the things that I really desire? And one thing that I never did was never put coffee in my creamer because that was unnecessary calories. And so when I stopped tracking, I was like, ok, well I really did having creamer in my coffee, actually, it was really enjoyable, so I'm going to start doing that again. And then I started doing that and I realized, okay, I'm fine. Nothing bad has happened. And then slowly I was able to start incorporating and just really thinking about what do I really desire? What do I really like to eat? Do I love brown rice or was I not eating white rice because it was not as good for me? And so to start really thinking about the decisions I was making in terms of movement and food and slowly making those changes and then also slowly acclimating that over time my body was changing. And also that was okay too. And so I think it's like we have to really be patient with ourselves as we go through those things because it's really hard and it's really scary to make those changes.
Kate: And it's ongoing. I, and I think you give a lot of grace to the process in your book like that. For most of us, it's never going to be like, okay, one day we're done, it's done. Now we're free. It's a continuous journey.
Chrissy: Absolutely. And that's why I entitled the book The Body Liberation Project, because it is an ongoing project. It's an ongoing journey in our lives. I know. And one of the things that sometimes it seems a little shortsighted on social media, we see body positivity posts and it's like, oh, I love myself and it's all great. And it gives us illusion perhaps that the people aren't still having bad body image days or that they look in the mirror every day and they love everything. And then if you are person who's not there, you're like, oh, I feel like even more of a failure because I can't do this thing when the reality is that we're seeing a snapshot of people's lives. And I don't truly believe that any of us ever get to a place where we never have negative thoughts about our bodies again. And if we set that as expectation for ourselves, we're just really setting ourselves up for disappointment, becuse that won't ever happen. But what will happen is that the more we lean into this journey of embracing our bodies, it becomes easier to switch those moments when we're having those negative thoughts quicker. And maybe they come less frequently, or we can rationalize, maybe I'm having this thought, but I also know that it's not productive, it's not true, it's not all of these things. And so its a journey and we always have working on it. And I think that our relationship with our bodies is so important. Cause we exist in these vessels for the duration of our lives. And so how can we really nourish a healthy relationship with ourselves throughout all of the different iterations our bodies will go through is the key to really leaning into liberation.
Kate: I think you call them shells in the book, is that right? Yes. Yes.
Chrissy: I sometimes say shells or vessels. It's really just a shell that's allowing us to have this human experience and we put, and it's not our fault, but society has really ingrained in us that we should put so much value into what this shell looks like. And it's like, wow, truly this is just the vessel. It's the keeper of our magic. It's letting us have this beautiful experience in the world.
Doree: Can you talk a little bit about your own, and I know you touched on this in the book, but for the benefit of our listeners, could you talk a little bit about your own personal journey to body liberation? Because as you alluded to a few minutes ago, you went through periods of counting macros, and you talk about this in even more detail in the book. But yeah, I'd love to just kind of hear it in your words.
Chrissy: Yeah, absolutely. So I came to fitness and exercise I think the same way as a lot of people. I wanted to lose weight. It was just that simple. I had been yo-yo dieting since I was 17 years old. And so I think I was tired of yo-yo dieting. And I was like, okay, I'm going to join the gym and I'm going to get serious about weight loss once and for all right. And so that's what kind of got me into the gym at the beginning and working with a trainer. And through that ended up getting really strong and power lifting, which was awesome. I love that part of my journey. It was really, really cool. And I started, I think power lifting was a thing that started to help me have that shift a little bit because I was like, oh, my body is so capable. I can do all these things I never thought I imagined I could do. That's really badass. I really enjoyed lifting weights and getting and lifting heavy weights and I was competing and deadlifting hundreds of pounds. I was like, that's awesome. And at the same time though, I was still hyperfocused on keeping my body small. And so from the course of joining the gym with a personal trainer to power lifting, I definitely had what people weight loss transformation, so to speak. And so when I was power lifting, I was definitely the strongest I'd ever been in life. I was in the leanest of body. I had been as an adult and so on the outside people were always, I was getting all the external validation, but I had the worst relationship with body image I've ever had, even though I was small, even though I was a small, I had the relationship with food, I had the worst relationship with exercise, and it was honestly miserable. And I talk about my rock bottom moment being a time I went away for the weekend with a family and going anywhere, even social with friends brought me anxiety because that meant that maybe I couldn't control everything that I ate and drank. And so it was stressful always going to dinner or going to parties, going anywhere. And so this particular time I had to go away for the whole weekend. I was like, oh great, this is going to mess up everything. So to try to prevent that as much as possible, I packed as much food as I could for the weekend. And so we were hanging out at a water park with my in-laws at the time. Everyone's having a great time. And then it comes to lunchtime and I go to the car and I pull out this meal that had been sitting in the cooler all day. It was so sad. And so just pathetic. And I sat in the car to eat my food and then my partner's family was like, why isn't she coming? She's to be healthy. So she brought her own food and they were very generous about it. So they asked the restaurant if I could bring my meal in. And I did. And I just remember sitting at that table and I had already eaten this little, it was a sad little wrap. It was very small. It was over and everybody was ordering their food and eating and I just was like, this food smell so good. Everyone's enjoying their meals. And I'm just sitting here feeling really miserable in this moment. And also at the same time I'm, it was at a water park, and so I was wearing a swimsuit and people kept asking me about my workout, strangers asking me about my workout routine and what I do. And I just like, well, I'm so miserable right now. I'm getting all the things that I thought I would feel happy about in the smaller body. And yet I'm so stressed about keeping this body small and even making it smaller. I am so miserable. And that was what I call my rock bottom moment when I was like, oh, I really have to do something because I'm going to spend the rest of my life feeling like this and I'm going to spend the rest of my life not enjoying life because I'm so worried about what I look like.
Doree: That was so relatable. And I loved what you also wrote when you said diet culture has in many ways robbed us of the experience of food. And then, yeah, your point is about diet culture has been claiming our time. Yeah. I was like, yes, yes, that's exactly it. So it was very profound to read that. And it reminded me of an article I read recently where I think it was in the Cut where a woman on Ozempic was excited about the fact that she doesn't want to eat anymore.
Chrissy: I read that article too last week. And honestly it was really heartbreaking for me to read that article because food, the experience of food is that's what makes us human, right?
Doree: Yeah.
Chrissy: And that's what makes us who we are. And so that article and then The Cut also did a separate article last week just talking about the experience of a lot of people on Ozempic. And one thing that kept coming up in that article too is people, people were like, oh, I don't even think about food anymore. This is great. And I'm like, no, no, we're not robots though. We're humans and we're supposed to eat. That is supposed to be part of our experience. And food is not diet culture and toxic fitness culture has the saying food is fuel. And yes, that's the most basic level. Of course it is. It's what keeps us alive. But food is so much more than that. Food is experiences. It's like how we share a love with one another. It's like cultural and it's comforting and it's supposed to be pleasurable. And diet culture somehow is a bad. And this idea that I can take this pill and now I don't even want to eat, and it's like that is light. That's part of our humanity, that's part of the experience of this world. And I tell a story in the book about how I knew I had really evolved my relationship with my body. And I was on in Spain with Amazing Girlfriend and was just sitting there and I'm like eating pa, and I'm eating all these pastries and I'm drinking all this amazing wine. And that is, that's life. That's living, that's yes. And it was so beautiful to be present, to enjoy it and not be worried about going to gain weight. And so it makes me really sad. And I've been reading articles, I've watching a of on TikTok I saw on TikTok this morning where this woman was talking about she's so, her relationship with the body is so negative right now that she literally doesn't want to do anything social. She doesn't want to leave the house, she doesn't want to go with friends because she feels so bad about the way her body looks. And when I read that and see these, and then the comments, there's so many people that are like, yes, I feel the same way. And I was like, this is why I want people to read this book because it truly is heartbreaking. And I've been in that place before. I know what that feels like. But it's also so heartbreaking to see people missing out on the experience of life because of the obsession with looks. Because when we really at the root of it, all life is so short, and their time is so fleeting and none of us are promised anything. And it's like, what a tragedy to spend the best years and moments of our lives obsessed and focused on the way our body looks instead of experiencing life. And then I also think about, I tragically lost my father in early 2019, and things happen in life that you don't expect. And at the end of our lives, at our funerals, the thing that people are not talking, not going to be talking about is what we look like and what our bodies look like. It's about the memories and the experiences that we shared and the love that we shared for one another. And I just want us to realize how truly magical the gift of life is, and that when we're spending all this energy obsessing about how we look, we're missing out on so much of that magic.
Kate: Yeah, this goes back a few years, but I think you had shared that sentiment on a social media post because I had been at a place in my journey where I was like I was really using the food as fuel mantra. And it was, I want to credit, I think it was you who kind of opened my eyes on this of just food is community. It's a connection to our past, to our it's pleasure. I hadn't allowed myself to give it that weight yet. And that was such a revelation for me and has really been magical and just learning more about who I am as a person. And it's been so powerful. So I appreciate you sharing that, because I think this idea mean a lot of the conversations that are in the news right now about weight loss and weight loss drugs and celebrities, it is really tricky navigating this conversation. I mean, for me, it's very triggering, but also it's very tempting, and I think you make a really good point that we're always on this project of body liberation. But as these kind of conversations come up more, especially right now, it's about diet, drugs and weight loss. But how do you suggest people stay, not, I won't want to say stay on the right path because that's sounds really judgmental, but stay true to how they are trying to navigate this for them themselves, because the pull of it is strong and terrifying.
Chrissy: Yes. I've been having this conversation a lot recently because I really felt like 2020, 2021, it really felt like the narrative was changing around bodies, body positivity movement was becoming more mainstream, which had the pros and cons. But all in all, I think we were having more positive and powerful conversations about bodies, about inclusivity, about all these things that are really important, helping to shift our narratives. And then I feel like in 20, late 2022 and in out, it feels like we're being inundated with more diet culture talk than ever before. And I think twofold, right? I think number one, that's the thing about diet culture that's really sneaky and insidious is that it operates on intentionally. Meaning the diet industry is over 72 billion now. I don't even know what the current number is. And so it's really intentional to make us feel bad about ourselves or make us feel like we need to fix ourselves. Cause if we didn't feel that way, we wouldn't keep buying things and the industry wouldn't keep profiting from our insecurities. So I feel like, and this is me hypothesizing, but I feel like when we started to feel like we were making this collective progress, I felt like the diet industry went to overdrive to be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not ok. Actually, you do need to change that. Cause again, it really thrives off of us feeling like there's this new thing that is going to help us. And also, I talked recently on social media about the New York Post article saying that heroin chic is back in. And so it's like when you keep moving the marker on whats the in body, before we were in the age of The BBLs, now we're in the age of the thin body. And when you keep moving the marker, people keep trying to adjust to that. And so it really, really hard to navigate that. And one of things I really tried to express into book is that it requires that we carry or we handle ourselves with so much compassion and gentleness and kindness no matter how we wake up feeling. Because it is really hard to exist in the world where you're getting inundated with messages every single day that you do need to change something about yourself. Or you're seeing ozempic and you're seeing celebrities and you're seeing them drop the weight and you're reading articles saying, I don't even think about food anymore. And you're like, that sounds amazing. I need to do that too. And so it's hard to navigate that. And I think the one thing that I always remind myself of is that I can look back at pictures when I was leaner and whatever, smaller. But then I also have to remember how I really felt when I was at net. I wasn't happy. I felt the worst. I felt the most miserable I've ever felt. And so reminding myself of what I had to do to get there and to stay there, and that I don't personally want to go back to that place. And then I think it's also so important that we also recognize that diet culture has taught us that we are all supposed to be thin and that there's a moral value attached to that. But the reality is that all of us were created differently for a reason. Meaning some of us are short, some of us are tall, blue eyes, blonde hair, brown hair, black, whatever. We all look different or because of genetics and that's how we were designed to do. And bodies are no different. Even though diet cultures told us we're all supposed to be thin, that's just not the truth. And even if we all ate the same and worked out the same, our bodies would still look differently. And I know that's a hard pill to swallow if you don't find yourself in a body that you maybe feel like is the one you want be in. But that's the reality. And that we could keep beating our bodies into submission. But we are going to be struggling with that for a really long time. And then of course, I think when we're talking about social media, doing our best to try to curate a feed that feels aligned with our values. And I will say that TikTok is the wild, wild west. I feel like there's not really a good way to do that on TikTok. On Instagram. We have a little bit more control, I feel like. But being mindful of how much we're consuming there too, if I feel like I'm starting to feel bad, I'm like, I need to take a break from all the things. Cause this is really having an impact on me and treating my own mental health is a priority. And then again, just continually working on that relationship with myself is something that I have to remind myself of every day.
Kate: Okay. Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Alright. We are back.
Doree: I wanted to also touch on the subtitle of your book, the Body Liberation Project is understanding the intersection of white supremacy and diet culture, creating collective freedom and cultivating joy. And I did want to touch on the white supremacy aspect of your book because it is such an important through line in what you talk about. I realize it's it, I'm not going to ask you to kind of summarize because it's so much of the entire book and I want people to kind of read it for themselves. But could we just briefly talk about how the contemporary body positivity movement, I guess especially on social media, is rooted in white supremacy and how should people be aware of that as they are on social media?
Chrissy: Absolutely. So I go into detail into the book about the inception of fatphobia and white supremacy going all the way back to slavery. I accredit all of that work to Dr. Sabrina Springs, who has an amazing book called Hearing the Black Body. But essentially during the time of slavery and wanting this desire to create a racial hierarchy and also justify slavery, right? Because if we look back in history prior to slavery, there are lots of times when being in the larger body wasn't considered a bad thing. It was considered a symbol of wealth, and it meant that you were prosperous. And then there became, all of a sudden you're like, oh no, bad big bodies are not good bodies. And that is during the period of slavery. And so when you're trying to justify enslaving people and you wanting to create this hi hierarchy of which bodies are more valuable and worthy of respect, enslaved people happened to be in larger bodies. They were also muscular from working in the fields all the time and all the time. And so that's when blackness became associated with gluttony, laziness, stupid stupidity, all of these things. And so this desire of wanting to be anything but that evolved. And so one of those ways is like, oh, I'm going to be, I want my body to be as different from that type of body as a black body as possible. And so that's really where this idea of culture wasn't obviously named that. But this idea of thin bodies being the body that you want to be in originated from. And unfortunately we have never deviated from that. And so when we're thinking about also the importance of dismantling white supremacy, one of the things I would talk about is white supremacy affects all of us. Even if we a black, white, brown, whatever color we are, it affects some of us more than others. But we are all dealing with white supremacy all having a negative impact on us. And then moving into the body positivity movement, the body positivity movement was founded by fat black and brown women. Cause they didn't see themselves as represented and celebrated within mainstream culture. And so that's who the movement was started for. And so when we talking about how it's been co-opted in a lot of ways, whitewash, just because now if we look at mainstream body positivity, we see the face of mainstream body positivity being a lot of thinner, mid-sized, even cisgender able-bodied white women. And I like to always really be clear about this. And I do do that in the book, but I want to be clear, everyone listening, that's not to say that everyone cannot benefit and partake in the body positivity community. Of course they can. But I think that one thing that gets a little bit conflated that there's a real difference from saying, I don't the stretch I have or I don't don't like the cellulite on my thighs. That's a personal body image issue, which all of us struggle with. But that's a very big difference from living in a body that's systemically oppressed. And I think that's the thing that people conflate sometimes. And so we have to be really clear on the fact that we're having different experiences, although we might be all struggling with our bodies. And so I think when thinking about the movement, I think it's just important to make sure, I always say for, I don't even really call the work, I do body positivity. But one of the things I talk about, the body positivity spaces that when it was created, the basis of it with social justice. And so when we're thinking about the body positivity movement, if we are not working to elevate the most marginalized voices, we aren't really doing the work of positivity. It's not about self and taking pictures in swimsuits and saying hashtag body positivity. It's really about how are we working tot marginalized voices that all of safe and respected valued in the bodies that exist.
Kate: This is something, a conversation we had, we've been having and had in a recent episode about lip plumpers. But you talk about the commodification of black bodies. And I think that conversation, especially for us as white women, is really important to engage in the ways in which we can dip in and out of things that are trends for white folks but are not for black people, people of color, just based on how our bodies are. And that has been, I think, mean you talk a lot about this and that's been really helpful and just kind of rereading your book, but also in thinking about the ways in which this conversation about thinness is taking, taking over again, who is this really about and who's participating? And that has been, I mean, I'm just really learning and unlearning, but it's been really, I don't know. eye opening.
Chrissy: And that's one of the things I did refer to when I talked on social media about the New York Post, New York Post article, because again, the popularization of the bbl, right, is oftentimes credited to the Kardashians when really we're talking about bodies that black and brown women have just always had. Yes. And we're often, and same thing with lips, right? Often ostracized for. And it wasn't until it was popularized on non-black bodies that now it's like, oh yes, this is the body. And so what's so insidious about that post for me also is that it's like, oh, cause the title was BBLs are out, heroin chic is back in or something to that effect. And again, it's this idea that you can try on these bodies and this are them when they're no longer desirable. And then also the beauty standard evolves around, oh, now the thin body is back in. So I'm like, ok, well what about all the people with these naturally occurring bodies that just exist? That body is out now. And so it's really this idea of really understanding how racism and interacts with all the beauty standards, the diet industry, all of these things and how it's so easy to modify a body and then decide it's no longer in longer the body to have and then just discard it and go back to whatever body you want to have now. And people's bodies, their body size of their shapes are not costumes to try on. And so yeah, these are all the things that I think just to interrogate when we see these type of things, it's having an impact in all of us. Again, some of us more than others, but we're all internalizing these messages.
Kate: One thing I have been thinking about my body and relationship to my body for a long time, but I am now thinking about how to apply those philosophies to my face and aging. Is that something you've thought about at all? Does, I know that there's obviously a massive correlation, but I feel like I've done a lot of work from the neck down with my relationship to that part of my body, but not from the neck up. And now I'm kind of staring at myself being like, you got to fucking deal with this.
Chrissy: Yeah, I think so. I, I feel like I'm starting to get to that point where I'm starting to think about that a little bit more. I'm 37 and I've noticed last week I'm like, oh, I noticed these fine lines that look like they're starting to appear that I didn't see before. And I think, I feel like when I really start to dig into that more, I think I'm going to apply a lot of the same principles that I use for your body because your face is part of your body. And aging is a normal part. I talk a lot about bodies change. Our face is a part of our body and it's also designed to change. And again, I think living in a society that's hyperfocused, especially on the way that women look, I feel like women feel more pressure to deal with the appearance of aging. And there's a lot of pressure. I even was, there's a lot of pressure. And it's also just been so normalized, right? Yeah. Oh, of course you should be using an antigen cream. Of course you should be using a retinol. Of course. And I'm not demonizing any of those things, by the way, but I'm saying those are things that I'm like, oh yeah, I need to spend some time interrogating those things too. And another thing I'm also pretty clear on in the book is that I want us all to move towards liberation, but I, at whole, I totally believe in body autonomy. And then we all make the decisions that feel the best for us. And so regardless if it's about your face, about your body, I never judge people for their decisions on what they make. I just say that we should think about them compassionately and question them. Because one of the things I talk about in the book too is that for a lot of us, especially those of us with more marginalized identities, when we feel like we have no access to power or privilege in the society, especially on Eurocentric standards of beauty, maybe weight loss is a thing that you feel like is going to give you more privilege in the world. And there are real benefits. Thin privilege is a real thing, right? And weight discrimination is a real thing. And so I'm always, no matter what you're feeling, I think that we have to just treat ourselves compassionately. Cause it's really difficult to navigate living in this world, knowing the truth, and also knowing the realities of living in a body that doesn't meet those standards.
Doree: So as we are all doing this kind of learning and unlearning, it's possible that the people around us are not on the same journey. And I loved what you had to say about boundaries, and I was hoping we could talk a little bit about that in our kind of last few minutes. But how do we set those boundaries with regards to diet culture with our friends and family?
Chrissy: Yes. And I like a hundred percent. It's like diet culture is so ingrained in all of us. You'll absolutely find yourself in situations where people are not on the same journey as you yet. So I think for me, I, I devoted a lot of our chapter of the book to boundaries. Cause I think it's so important. And so I think twofold. Number one, I always, again, am reminding myself of where I used to be in my own relationship with diet culture and body image. So just because I have evolved in this journey, I cannot expect that everyone's at the same place. So that's number one. But that doesn't mean that I can't set boundaries, right? So I think I talk about family, let's start there. Family's tricky depending on the dynamics, their family cultural values. There's no one way or one size fits all approach to setting boundaries with family. But I do think that what is always really helpful is just speaking openly and vulnerably with your family. This is what I'm working on and these are the things I'm trying to achieve. And I really would love your support in this. So they know this matters to me, it's important to me and this is something that I'm working through. Now that being said, that doesn't mean that everyone's always going to still be aligned. And so I think it's having those conversations. And then number two, sometimes we also have to realize that maybe there's certain people that know family members, I'm talking about that no matter how much we tell them, they're never, maybe they're just not going to be aligned or they're not going to remember, or they're not just going to support us in the way that we need to. So I think when it comes to that, we also have to decide how much time do I want to spend around this person? That doesn't mean I'm saying right off some, my members of your family, but maybe I'm only going to spend a couple of hours or I going to visit them every so often. Cause I know it's really hard on me personally when I'm in those environments. And I think too, another thing that's really can sometimes just ease the tension around this conversation is perhaps someone's saying something that you like, oh, you're really going to have another plate. And you're like, yes, I really am, is there something wrong? asking the question back Sometimes can help people realize maybe I sound like I'm being an asshole right now. And so just that can be really helpful. And I think when it comes to friends, for me, my friends are my chosen family, and I live in a different city for my immediate family. So the people that I'm spending the most time with are my friends. And so when it comes to my friends, I'm really, I'm like, I don't do diet culture talk. That's just it. Yeah. And it's not that people will never have a slip up, but I know that we're going to, in our friend circle, in our group, we're going to say, Hey, remember we're not doing diet culture talk because we want to support each other in that. And that journey and having people around you that can support you really does make all the difference. And so again, those can be hard conversations. And then I think with friendships too, there's some people that are your, you see and talk to every day, and then there's some people you talk to and see quarterly. And so making some of those decisions about who you want to surround yourself with and then sometimes working to align and meet new people who are more aligned with your values is also a part of that process. And I think boundaries are a tricky conversation to have, and we look at them as they're really harsh. But my therapist gave me some advice really recently that was really helpful and that we're setting boundaries because we love this person and we want to be able continue a relationship that still with love, and these are things that allow that to happen.
Kate: I love that. Oh boy. Well, this is so great, Chrissy.
Doree: It, it's been really, really great to talk to you. We both really loved your book and love the work that you do, and I hope our listeners will buy your book and really absorb everything that you're talking about. I mean, we didn't even touch on all of the kind of practical stuff that you have in the book to help people on their journeys, which as I read a lot of those questions that you have at the end of each chapter, I was like, oh,
Kate: I know that. Yes. Same experience
Doree: For me. Think about. So I think people will really get a lot out of your book. So thank you so much for writing it. Where can our listeners who might not follow you right now, where can they find you if they want to follow your work?
Chrissy: Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Thank you for the kind things you said about the book. I really appreciate that. Thank you for taking the time to read it. But listeners can find me on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. @IamChrissyKing. My website is Chrissyking.com, and I do a newsletter so you can subscribe to my newsletter. And then the book is available anywhere books are sold.
Kate: Yay. That's out now.
Doree: Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Chrissy: Thank you for having me. It was such a wonderful conversation.
Doree: I really feel like this is one of those books that everyone should read.
Kate: I do too. Please get, please get this book.
Doree: including my mom.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: I just think there's so much that people can take away from this book
Kate: And so much to unpack in our own experiences. Like I said, I really have been really looking at the way in which I look at my face, and it's been very, it's made me feel very uneasy.
Doree: Oh, interesting.
Kate: I am definitely struggling with my facial appearance, but I'm also wanting to push back on my desire to change it. And I'm just, I'm kind of sitting at the point where those two things meet and I'm just kind of like, huh. All right. This is hard. Smears, some retinol all over her cheeks.
Doree: I think one thing that we talked a little bit about in the conversation and that she does also really emphasize in the book is that this all really is an ongoing process.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: This is not a, well, I solved it.
Kate: No,
Doree: Let's move on.
Kate: Especially as things change. One, as we change throughout life, but also as the world around us changes in ways that we cannot predict. We have no idea what's going to come out in a year, what's so, it's
Doree: Just totally,
Kate: It's challenging to navigate. But yeah, I agree. I think this book was just so insightful and helpful in just considering all these things as we exist in the world. Well, I think last week my intention had been to figure out some body movement again, and then I got a cold and haven't purposefully just been going for some short walks with the dogs and not really doing anything. And actually that's felt great because I
Doree: Good.
Kate: Just getting outside has been so nice. I think I actually mentioned that in our conversation with Chrissy. Just getting some sunshine on my face has been great. And I'm just kind of like, oh, I'll keep just following what feels good and see how that goes.
Doree: So,
Kate: Sorry. Excuse me.
Doree: I had the same, I copied you last week.
Kate: Oh.
Doree: Because I was coming out of sickness and I was like, okay, I'm giving my week to get back into things. And I went to my strength class on Tuesday, and then Thursday I woke up and I was like, oh, I don't feel good again.
Kate: Yes.
Doree: I was really tired. I was coughing. I, oh, I had a really sore throat again that I think was brought on by a coughing fit when I went to the orchestra on Tuesday night and I was like, Ugh, this is annoying. I am sick again. But then I was fine the next day, and I played tennis on Friday, which was really fun actually. And it felt good to be playing tennis again. So yeah, I'm kind of figuring this out too. But I think am really on the tail end of the sickness. I still have the occasional cough, especially when I've been talking a lot, but I'm mostly knock on wood better. So I am kind of getting back out there in a way that does feel good, especially tennis. I really enjoy it. I like being outside. It's really fun. So that's been fun. And that's something that we talked about with Chrissy too, and we've talked about this with other guests also, but just finding the joy in, well, in everything, but in moving your body is such a different way of thinking about things than the sort of punishing way that I used to think about them.
Kate: I know it don't i know it, I know the punishing way. Yeah. Sorry. Sounds so negative. But yeah, I totally get that. And it's a constant kind of revisiting my relationship to fitness and exercise.
Doree: And this week, Kate, it's not really an intention per se, but, excuse me. Let's take that again this week, Kate. It's not really an intention per se, but I have a mammogram. I have my mammogram.
Kate: Yes. I love it.
Doree: So I just like to bring that up, let people know.
Kate: Yes. Squeeze those boobs, get 'em in there. Photos.
Doree: Oh yeah.
Kate: I love that for you, Doree. I love that. For all of us, screening is v i p. Very important.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: My intention for this week is just to keep caring for myself with this cold, which means drinking a lot of warm water and not pushing it. Going to bed really early and getting 10 hours of sleep at night.
Doree: Yes. Not pushing it.
Kate: Not pushing it.
Doree: Not pushing it.
Kate: Ugh. Well, Doree. Thank you for this wonderful conversation. Thank you folks for listening. Friendly Reminder, Forever35 is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer. It's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast.
Doree: Bye everybody.
Kate: Bye.