Episode 255: Use Your Voice with Samara Bay
Kate and Doree discuss the mental derailing of canceled plans before they invite their friend Samara Bay to the podcast to talk about her new book Permission to Speak: How to Change What Power Sounds Like Starting With You, self-care in the form of small moments connecting with friends, and why women think they have sexier voices when they get sick.
Photo Credit: Brittany Jean
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts,
Doree: But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: We do. We do. Or not using serums. That might be where I'm headed in life. So sweet.
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: Now Doree, you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. Our Instagram @Forever35podcast. You can join the Forever35 Facebook group where the password is serums. You can also shop our favorite prods shopmy.us/forever35. Sign up for our newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And if you would like to reach us, our voicemail and text number is (781) 591-0390, or you can always email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Doree: And just a reminder, we are doing a live show in two short weeks on Wednesday, February 22nd at 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern Tickets are available now at moment.co/Forever35. The show will also be available on demand for a week after it airs. So if you can't make it live, just grab a ticket, catch the recorded version after, or still be lots of lols and
Kate: So many lols,
Doree: So many lols. there's also going to be an after party where you can end the night with some final thoughts. And in inten-chies, we're going to get cozy in the hotel lounge
Kate: And there is going to be exclusive merchandise
Doree: That you can only get at the show.
Kate: Yep. Thank you to our friends at Balance Bound. You can check out the merch we already have with them at balancebound.co/shop/forever35. I just do want to say you are going to love some of this exclusive merch we've seen. We've been planning it, we've been having meeting, it's been meetings.
Doree: We will, we'll also have some of it at the show, so you'll be able to see it.
Kate: Oh yeah,
Doree: Yeah. I'm excited.
Kate: Oh yeah. Okay. Now I know. Okay. Yeah. Well listen, as I've mentioned on here, I'm working on my self-confidence.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: So part of that is promoting myself.
Doree: Yes Kate.
Kate: Which I fucking hate so much. I hate it. But I did want to share that the paperback version of my novel In A New York Minute is out now. You can get it wherever books are sold. It has a beautiful new cover. I'm obsessed with it. I'm very proud of it. And I appreciate your support. If you want to buy it, pick it up at your library, request it at your local bookstore. But I'm also doing a live event today, technically.
Doree: Yeah. February 8th.
Kate: February Eighth Wednesday at 6:00 PM at Chavalies books here in Los Angeles. I'll be signing books. I'll be in conversation, I'll be answering questions. I would really love to see you. I will do. I sign your book with weird Forever35 Inside Jokes if you come. I like to go all out. I will draw a horse head. I will happily get very weird for you. Doree is nodding because she knows the truth.
Doree: I do.
Kate: And also next Wednesday I'm at the, I'm at Strand Books in New York City.
Doree: Oh, that's right.
Kate: At their romance panel.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: On February 15th for the next three Wednesdays I have a live event.
Doree: So Kate, I will be at your LA show. La Show, LA event. Yes. I will not be at your New York event.
Kate: I accept that
Doree: I will be at your Forever35 live event
Kate: Because you are in that with me.
Doree: Yes, yes.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: So listen, I'll be spending two out of three Wednesday nights with you.
Kate: Alot of Wednesday night. So yeah, I'll have links for all those things, but if you would like to come to any of those, please do. Please say hi. And can also corner Doree at Chivas today. She'll be there.
Doree: I'll be there.
Kate: Lookin extra chic. So yeah, that's part of.
Doree: What should I wear? What are you wearing?
Kate: I don't know.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: I don't know yet. I did, I did just order this sweater from Mango.
Doree: Oh, it's cute.
Kate: I kind of like it. It's cozy. I never know what to wear at a thing. Still in that kind of, I don't leave the house much. And when I do, it's in a sweatshirt. I received five years ago.
Doree: I too am in this, what do I wear? But I've been in that phase for four years. I felt like I was in it pre pandemic because totally. I was pregnant and then I had a baby, and then the pandemic hit. So it's been, it's been literally almost five years of not knowing what to wear. It's been four and a half years of not knowing what to wear.
Kate: Almost as long as we've been doing this podcast.
Doree: Yes. Well,
Kate: God. Well, also what is interesting is it does kind of give you this opportunity to explore what your style is now. And quite frankly, maybe you are, maybe this is your style, maybe comfort can also be style, right?
Doree: Yeah. I mean, for the record right now I'm wearing leggings.
Kate: Let's do some fit checks.
Doree: I'll do a fit check. I am wearing Lululemon a line leggings.
Kate: Oh My God. I am too.
Doree: I believe I got these on Poshmark. I'm wearing my tennis shoes more on that in a bit. And I'm wearing a sweatshirt from the Harry Styles concert,
Kate: which is super cute.
Doree: Thank you. And a Dodger's hat. Why am I wearing my actual tennis? And when I say I'm wearing my tennis shoes, I don't mean tennis shoes in the sense of certain parts of the country where they call all sneakers, tennis shoes.
Kate: We don't do that.
Doree: I'm actually wearing shoes meant to play tennis, because I was supposed to play tennis this morning and they canceled it, but I didn't get the email. So I showed up and they were like, oh, yours is canceled. And the other class is full. And I was like, oh, it's like embarrassing and annoying. And I was looking forward to playing tennis because it was my first time playing tennis since I pulled my calf muscle. So I was all ready to get back out there.
Kate: I hate that feeling where you're very amped and
Doree: I was stretching
Kate: And you've like planned this. Energetically. You're prepared.
Doree: Yeah, exactly.
Kate: And your shoes and your outfit and
Doree: My shoes, my outfit. So I was just like, oh my gosh. And then I got home and Matt was home and he was like, well, do you want to do, you just hit some tennis balls with me at the tennis court near our house for a little while. And I was like, okay, he doesn't play tennis. So I really appreciated.
Kate: That was very sweet.
Doree: It was very sweet. We did actually go, but he does not play tennis. So
Kate: You appreciated the effort.
Doree: I did. I really appreciated the effort and the sentiment. And then I was like, you know, can take tennis lessons. He was like, it's kind of fun to just hit a ball everywhere. I'm like, Yeah, it's very fun. I mean, you know, like to hit balls.
Kate: Oh, now I'm now doing pickleball two times a week.
Doree: See,
Kate: I've got a pickleball crew.
Doree: Look at you.
Kate: I love it.
Doree: It's very fun to just hit a ball with a paddle, or a racket.
Kate: My serves were killing it yesterday.
Doree: Damn.
Kate: It just felt, you know what it is. And actually my pickleball coach kind of called me out on it at the beginning of every pickleball. I take a class once a week with three other friends and our coach, and I always turn on my Apple watch and I track my activity. So I was fiddling with my watch and he was like, Hey, I know you have a lot going on in your life. I think he thought I was on my phone like, but when you're here, you've got to just compartmentalize and shut all that out. And I was like, you know what? The reason I love pickleball so much is because I'm not on, I can't be checking my phone. I have to only focus on pickleball because I, I'm learning it. And also there's a, there're ball, wiffle ball things flying at me.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: And really this time, I don't want to sound too cheesy, but it feels, it's a sacred time for me. Like yesterday. So I'm on a book deadline. I'm trying to get this manuscript turned in and I could have very easily, and I do this a lot where I don't do anything but work and cause I'm so panicked, I start to convince myself that there is no time for anything else. And there was a moment where I was like, I shouldn't go to pickleball. It's two hours, three hours of my morning. I should use that time to write. But then I was like, girl, fuck no. What you need this time.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: It's really, it's just so, being outside, getting to be with friends, getting to talk to the crew retirees who play pickleball in the next court, who are in their eighties and a million times better and more agile than I'll ever be. It's, it's just a different community. It's great. And I was already talking about how I want older friends.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: Oh, lemme tell you. I'm going to find myself a pickleball bestie who's 75 or older. My fit check today, Doree is I'm in Nike High top Blazer sneakers. I am also in Lululemon Align leggings. Black.
Doree: Okay. I see you.
Kate: Spanks. Spanks underpants. An athleta tank top with a built-in bra.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: That I have two of these. I probably wear them every day. And this new sweater from Mango and a hair clip that I ordered online and hair in that phase of greasiness where I can really slick it back without any product. You know that phase where you're like, thats my fit check for today.
Doree: I love all this.
Kate: Do you have a hard time? I really struggle with this actually. And not to make this about me, but I'm curious if you have this, because I think it's an ADHD thing when you plan on something in mentally and also you've kind of set up your day and then it changes quickly and you don't have control over it. Does it send you spiraling?
Doree: I wouldn't say spiraling, but I would say it annoys me. I have seen this happen with other people I'm close with who have ADHD, and it can fully throw them off for good. The tennis thing's a little more complicated because I had already been feeling a little annoyed at the lesson place because for very, in the weeds reasons, they split up the class, the live ball class into an upper intermediate and a lower intermediate, which is fine. And I felt like some of the people I was playing with, I was actually in danger of getting injured. Cause they were just like, they hit the ball so hard.
Kate: Oh Wow. Okay.
Doree: So I was fine. I'm fine being in the lower intermediate, but not as many people sign up for the lower intermediate. So that has led to classes being canceled, classes being too small to, so that's just been annoying to me. And I'm just like, so I'm annoyed at the
Kate: You're already annoyed.
Doree: I'm already annoyed. And then this happened and I was just like, oh, this is very frustrating. I think I was especially annoyed because for a couple months I felt like I had kind of gotten into this great rhythm and I was really enjoying the classes. It was a good group of people. I was getting a great workout. It was really fun. I was getting better. And then I kind of feel like the rug was pulled out from under me a little bit. And that's very frustrating to me.
Kate: And you have no control over it,
Doree: And I have no control over it. So I either have to be hopeful that they change this back because it's clearly not really working. But then there's also a part of me that's like, well, they're able to fill the other class, so maybe they just don't care. So yeah, it's very annoyed by this. And the icing on the cake is that they have a Saturday class and those classes get filled up.
Kate: And is it the lower intermediate?
Doree: Both the lower and the upper, but I can't really do the Saturday classes, so I'm just like, you know.
Kate: I'm annoyed for you. I'm annoyed for you.
Doree: Just when I had found this sort of ideal situation, the rules, the goalposts have shifted. That's all.
Kate: That's very annoying. I'm sorry. That's annoying. It's annoying also when you are excited, when you are looking forward to something.
Doree: Yes! Exactly.
Kate: Especially because God, we all need that.
Doree: Yes, I was like
Kate: it is so discouraging everywhere else.
Doree: Yes, yes. And I was like, this is so great. I get to be outside, I get to be among people. I get to play tennis. I love tennis. It's just all these things. And now it's like, well, now it's changed and now I have to worry every time. Are they going to cancel it? Are there going to be enough people? Is it going to be weird energy? It's just shitty. So I'm annoyed.
Kate: Sounds like you're really disappointed. Have you expressed any of this to these tennis? This tennis, the place?
Doree: I mean,
Kate: Lodged an official complaint of, Hey, here's the deal.
Doree: I was clearly very disappointed this morning.
Kate: Okay, good.
Doree: Because I went,
Kate: Yeah, and they That's okay. I'm annoyed for you.
Doree: So I don't know. I'm going to see how things play out through this cycle, which I think goes till mid-March or something. So another six weeks, and then I will reassess. So that's where I'm at.
Kate: I'm sorry. Well, you can always start playing pickleball if you want.
Doree: I love that you love pickleball.
Kate: And we'll just leave it at that. We will leave it at that. Well, Why don't we introduce our listeners to our guest today.
Doree: Let's do that.
Kate: We have Samara Bay on the podcast today. In addition to being our in real life friend and a wonderful person, she's a communication expert whose clients range from candidates for the US Congress to C-suite executives, international diplomats, and the part we're most excited about Hollywood celebrities. So she has coached American and international actors, including Rachel McAdams, Pierce Brosnan, Gal Gado, Ricky Martin, Jennifer, Jason Lee, there's more, Rosie O'Donnell, miles Teller, Keegan, Michael Key, and Penelope Cruz on projects for Marvel, DC, HBO, Showtime, and more and more and more. She's also the host of the podcast, Permission to Speak, and her book, Permission to Speak is out now and it's excellent. So when we come back, we will be talking with our friend Samara,
Doree: BRB
Kate: Samara. Welcome. Let's just get it out there. We all know each other in real life and we are friends via motherhood essentially.
Samara: It's true. But motherhood was actually a really good choice in terms of community.
Kate: We were connected by our having of the children, but we are so much more. But we are so glad to have you as a guest on Forever35 to a Sure motherhood may come up, but really what we are here to talk about is giving ourselves permission to speak before we get to your incredible book and life experience and wisdom. We like to check in with our guests about a self-care practice that they have instituted in their own lives, which could really be anything. Do you have something that you do that you consider, self care.
Samara: I'm going to go a little A to C on this because I'm being really honest about what I have learned is self-care for me, definitely a massage comes to mind, but that's not what I was going to say. What I was going to say is reaching out and having real moments, real moments with friends every day.
Kate: Ooh, okay, now wait a second. Let's back up here. How do you do that? Because this is hard for some of us. What would you consider reaching out? What do you consider having a moment with someone? What does this look like in your day-to-day?
Samara: Sometimes mostly it happens organically by virtue of literally spending some time on the internet, which obviously is a place where we can all talk about boundaries, but also a place where I think the three of us can attest. It's also a place for connection through the pandemic and before and after. But specifically I have found during this bizarre era of going more public than ever, as my book has become a thing that I am promoting on a daily basis, that having moments with friends, whether it's about what I'm doing or not, helps me appreciably with how vulnerable it feels to go public. Like a text exchange where I check in and say, are you doing okay? Or I send a funny meme or whatever that my husband has sent me to a specific friend that makes me think of. But knowing that doing that is not a distraction from my day, but is actually there to support the version of me that I want to have show up on that day is just a, it's just different framing.
Kate: So you're reaching out both for the other person but also for yourself?
Samara: I mean, yeah. I actually talk about this in the final chapter of my book that helping people gives us this oxytocin hit. So it's like, yeah, you could think of it totally, if you want to be cynical, you can totally think of it as transactional or for the self part of self-care. But the reality is that exchange where you offer something lovely to someone and they smile or hit like or actually say thank you for thinking of me is bigger than me or that person. It's how, oh God, the phrase just came to mind love out loud. So there you go. I'll say it. It's how we love out loud and it's how we spread more love. And quite honestly, as cynical, we want to be, cynicism doesn't help us if actually we like the feeling of love.
Doree: Is there an expectation of reciprocity there? And is there something that you need from your friends that they are also offering to you? Or is this just something that is coming from you?
Samara: It's such a great question because good,
Kate: It is a good question.
Samara: It gets into the strategy of it that I think I necessarily don't go too deep into or does start to feel transactional. But I will say this, I think I've learned how to do this over time from my friends who do it.
Doree: Okay.
Samara: And I'm like, God, it feels so lovely to just have somebody say, I see you doing that brave thing. I fucking see you. And I'm like, oh, I didn't, ok. I didn't post that real so that they would send me that. But I was feeling brave and bravery feels vulnerable, and that is a feeling. And then I was alone with that feeling because that's what happens when you post something on the internet and then you're still in your house. And then to get that note was like, oh my God, that was so much more meaningful than just a few words in a text. How can I pay that forward?
Kate: So someone's modeled the behavior so important, isn't it? Isn't it amazing what we learn from people in our life that sometimes we don't even realize it until we're doing it? Then it's like, oh, look at this.
Samara: Right? So right. So and I also feel like as we get older no matter how 35 we remain, we're also working on who we want to have around us in the ways in which we have control over that. And so part of that is, well, how do people make us feel in these tiny, tiny little ways that on paper shouldn't matter, but they really do.
Kate: Yeah. This is a conversation I have with my daughters a lot. Yeah,
Doree: I was just going to say, I feel like I weirdly learn a lot about friendship and how to show up from people, how to show up for people from group texts like, and I know it sounds weird, but
Samara: No, thats so it.
Kate: No, tell us more.
Samara: It could be like a revolution,
Doree: Right? Let's say the three of us are on a group chat and Samara, you're having a bad day and you reach out to us and you're being really vulnerable. And then what will often happen is I'll respond and be like, oh, I'm like, I'm sorry you're having a bad day. And then the other person in the group text, in this scenario, Kate will respond with something extremely thoughtful and caring and I'm like, oh,
Kate: Oh,
Doree: That's how you should respond. That's how you show up.
Kate: Oh, that's so interesting because I thought you were going to say that another, it's. Sorry, go ahead, Doree.
Doree: No, it's like you get a little insight into how other people interact with each other. If you had just texted Kate, I wouldn't know how Kate responded to you, but because you're texting both of us, I get to kind of see, oh, this is how she's responding. Oh, okay. It's funny. I feel like especially lately, maybe because a lot of people are going through hard things, I've just kind of witnessed some really caring and thoughtful responses and have kind of just filed away, oh, these people are really good at showing up and saying the right thing, which is really tough sometimes.
Samara: Yeah, no, that modeling thing, it's so true.
Doree: The modeling thing
Samara: Because it's not like, and look, this actually intersects with my work work. It's it to be clear if we pick up someone else's style of intentionally showing up and try it out ourselves, we're not lying. We're not being manipulative. We're learning how to be more honest and vulnerable in conversations. And we have multitudes and we have different communication styles we can use. And all of us have been able to tap into our greatest, I mean, I'm putting quotes around it because of course, what would be the definition of that? But our greatest communication style in the moments that matter for the people that need us, when they're perhaps right in front of us and they're crying and they're saying, I can't believe I let this guy treat me this way. And we go, oh my God, I have a story for you. Wait, the story will help.
Kate: Yes.
Samara: And then when we're out of alignment, because we're not present, we're not physically present, we're not seeing the tears, we're not just feeling the feelings and organically we can start to get in our head, how does this person need me to show up? But I'm really interested in that version of us that is our greatest, as I said, what is this version of us that tells a story? For example, not because we're being self-indulgent, not, and we don't have any of those sort of stereotypical voices that women have in their heads when they're about to tell a story where we think either my story's not worth it, it's boring, or I'm taking up too much time and space, and I'm going to sound like a, I'm bragging because as I like to say, and this is super relevant for public speaking or whatever, if someone is choking in front of us, we're not going to hold back that we have CPR training because we'll be super self-indulgent and we'll be talking about our certification program, right? We'll be like, they're choking. I could help. And the thing about public speaking, not in every case, there's a billion scenarios where we're getting up and talking in front of people, and sometimes it's even just a pitch for one other person or a pitch to get better paid. But if we can think about that in terms of they are choking and they might not look like it, and what do I have that's useful?
Kate: Yeah, This brings up a lot of thoughts for me. I'm just thinking about this whole, I don't know, this is a little bit of off topic, but just this idea of how we participate in what we bring to the conversation. And oftentimes, I know for myself, my first reaction is like, I don't want to make this about me. I don't want, when I think what you're suggesting is there are ways of making about you that aren't helpful, but there also are ways where your story is impactful. And finding your voice to share that and not be in your head in this way is a learned skill.
Samara: Yeah, totally. And learned meaning also, you practice it, it helps to practice it. It helps to say, I'm going to try sharing this story and see how it goes.
Kate: Yea, scary, scary,
Samara: Oh my God, being bad at something before you're good. I mean, this is something, parenthood has offered us the opportunity to create a lot of kind space around for our children and we see it. I mean, see my kid being bad at piano and thus not liking it, and I'm like, Ooh, ooh, this is so useful. Oh, this is so useful. So you don't like that feeling of not being good at it yet. Is that the same as not liking the teacher? Is that the same as not liking the possibility, the potential, whatever music? No. So
Kate: it's all connected.
Doree: So, Samara, let's get to your book, which is so wonderful and I think will be so important to so many people. And you discussed this in the introduction, but for the benefit of our listeners, could you give us just a brief overview of how you came to do this work and how you came to write this book in particular?
Samara: Thank you. Okay. So here's an example of storytelling. So first, I'll say I have this background as a dialect coach in Hollywood. So after having an acting career transitioned in 10 years ago into coaching actors for accents. So this meant we're working with movie stars who have English as a second language accents, or coaching Americans or Brits who need specific accents for a role. It has been an absolute utter delight, but the best parts were always the real talk off set about their own communication stuff, about what this accent that they had seemed to be affect, it was affecting how people would treat them. I remember a movie star who I will not name because I'm so classy telling me, no matter what I do, I will always be an immigrant. Look, there's nothing wrong with being an immigrant, but you know what they mean. I will always, there will always be some element of accent bias and people will be putting me into a category I have no control over. And those conversations, or I get to speak at the United Nations as this actor, I get to speak at the United Nations, or I get to give this award to Britney Spears true story. And suddenly talking as myself is bringing up all this new shit and what is this and how do I sound like myself when all eyes are on me instead of a character? And so then during the 2018 midterms, I got this call from moveon.org and a friend had put me up to do this pro bono coaching for that huge slew of women who were running for office for the first time that summer. And oh my God, I was, quite honestly, I was like, I have no idea if I'm going to be useful, but it's way better than just going to those marches about, I thought that was the summer that we were hearing what was happening at the border. I mean, I was actually in Washington DC that summer coaching Gal Gado for Wonder Woman 2. And I had some downtime because she had a lot of flying sequences where there were no words coming out of her. And so I said, yes, yes, yes. And I started coaching these women. I had these massive ahas about mean, not to be overdramatic, but about what I should be doing. And this book is a direct outpouring of that because I realized that these women are exactly who should be in charge, that everything in fact that we can point to that's wrong with our society. I mean, this sounds really extreme, but I kind of think it's true. Everything you can point to is because the wrong people are in charge. And here are these women who are magnificent, not always showing up magnificently in the moments that matter, and what is that? And so I started to think through, well, there are some massive eons, long cultural stories about who the public was literally built for and what the people who speak and it are supposed to sound like. And those stories are outdated and they don't help us. And once I got really fiery about that, yes, I realized that no one in the quote public speaking world talks that way. There's a lot of little, here's how to talk in order to get taken seriously. Here's how to sound like an authority figure. Keep your voice low, cut out all of your likes or ums or uhs or hedging terms that linguists will say are feminine markers, and then good luck, then good luck in trying to also sound authentic. And I was like, I called BS because I come from theater world, and here's what I know. Those moments when we see somebody on stage or on screen saying what matters to them, those moments when somebody finally admits in the romcom that they're in love and their heart opens up and you see them is makes such an impact. You lean in, you fall in love with them. And that is exactly what makes us fall in love with people when they're speaking in public. Our favorite speeches, every single one you've ever wanted to share with your friends that have gone viral, it's not because that person kept their voice low and kept all of their ums and us out of their speech. So I was with my little mischievous outsider grin was like, we need to refocus what public speaking even is in our collective mind and in our personal mind, our own inner thoughts so that we're not constantly trying to play at something we're not, that doesn't work, that will never feel like love out loud and refocus on something that could possibly make us love our own voice, love our friends' voices, change what power sounds like in our own mind. So we stop trying to play at that old thing and make us perhaps set ourselves up so that the next time we pitch or have the opportunity to speak, it actually feels good on the inside.
Kate: Can you explain, you mentioned hedging. Can you explain what some of these vocal fry up speak, these things that we have in the way we talk, how we use them, and why are they there? Why has vocal fry become a thing? And then later, let's discuss why sometimes we get emails from people criticizing the way we speak as podcasters.
Samara: Oh, That's so interesting. As podcasters have never heard that story.
Kate: Shocking, shocking. Sometimes people have real problems with our voices.
Samara: Are you guys, are you guys? Wait, let me just, are you guys women?
Kate: Oh, Mm-hmm.
Samara: Oh, that's so interesting.
Kate: Weird, right?
Samara: Yeah. Yes. Okay. So practically speaking, vocal fry is the linguistic term for when your voice gets caught in your throat often because you're not breathing enough but obviously just becomes habit. It's not actually because of that moment. It's about the accumulation of moments, but it ends up sounding like this, and it either happens the entire time or more likely. You're like, breath, breath, breath. I'm saying what? I mean, I'm speaking decisively, but at the end of the thought, I'm not totally sure. So what do you think in that case? So clearly I'm throwing energy out, but then I'm slightly taking it back at the end. And if we put it that way, because I'm a huge fan of having no shame, no actual shame in terms of the habits we've picked up. Well, let's look at what value that serves. How useful is it in a lot of our work contexts or with men period, or anybody who is looking for not feeling intimidated how useful it is to be. I care a lot about this thing, but also I'm super flexible. I'm super open and I'm curious what you think, and I'm not too married to it. So either way is fine. It's such an obvious valuable defense mechanism. It also says I might sound like I care a lot about this, but also don't worry, I don't care that much. Which Is also a way of not being vulnerable if it's not a safe space. So because also the other thing is that if we talk entirely in our throat like this, we have no pitch variation up and down and pitch variation. This is just a total me thing that I figured out from coaching people. But pitch variation when we go up and down, not clownish, but realistically, when we go up and down, it codes for vulnerability. It means I care. So a great way to sound like you don't care as vocal fry. And then there's all these think pieces about how it makes you seem blase and detached. And it's like, yeah, actually that yes, correct. It's useful. It's useful. And this is where I'll say your why question. Kate is so good. And so cuts to the heart of it. One of my favorite things from linguistics and I had a podcast called Permission to Speak a few years ago. I interviewed a bunch of linguists and I've read a bunch of, I'm such a pop linguistics nerd, and one of my favorite things that is so standard inside the world of linguistics, but doesn't always go mainstream is that every single habit you listening, you have picked up, you have picked for a reason. It has served you in some way. And now in this moment as we're all having this conversation, and maybe on some level you're feeling frustrated about your lack of power, lack of agency in some aspect of your life, you get to go thank you habit. Perhaps I've outgrown you. What would another option be? Because all of us sound the way we do because of the life we've lived, which is partly the accents we had, that our parents had, that our friends had growing up. And partly then why did we leave? When did we leave? How did we learn how to come across as nice or how to come across as likable or how to come across as funny or whatever kind of archetype we felt like we wanted to seem or we seemed based on our birth order when we were going to school, when we were going to college, when we were dating, when we were in our first job. I mean, I like to say, what habits have we picked up to get by in rooms of power? Well, playing a little small in that room certainly seemed to help. It made everybody actually listen more to me. Cool. I'll keep doing that thing where I lean back off the end of my sentence, and this is what up speak is too. So up speak goes up at the end. So you sound like, hi, my name is Samara, which is like has a question, marky energy to be loving toward it as I like to be toward all of these. It also says, have you ever heard of that name before inside of saying what your name is? So it's pretty efficient, right? But then it becomes this habit. And then sometimes for some people it feels like everything they say goes up at the end, and that is just harder for certain ears to sort of decode. What's a sentence and what's a question? Is that a habit you picked up? Because it also makes you seem unintimidating perhaps.
Doree: So what I'm hearing, Samara, and what I think I took away from your book is that when we use these things like hedging up, speak, vocal fry, they're not necessarily bad, but we should be more aware of when and how we use them
Samara: If they're a problem. I'm also not here to fix anything that isn't broken. But if you've been getting feedback, I mean, another moment, another massive but tiny origin story moment for me as I was writing this book and I was like, oh, oh, this thing that I kind of glossed over and for probably trauma reasons kind of avoided When I was in my early twenties, I lost my voice and it went on for months and I didn't sick and I couldn't figure it out. And I was in acting school. So what a weird, silly place to not be able to talk. I dropped out of the play, okay, what is happening? And I was in Providence, Rhode Island, and I was cold, and I would just drink tea at night being like, I can't even call my parents and my friends what is happening? And I finally got myself to an ear, nose and throat doctor. I found out I had vocal nodules. If anyone hears experience that. And the reasons why was interesting was its own journey. But the moment that I glossed over that I really had to go back to is that I got back to class that day and the guy who ran the whole acting program stopped class. I missed the morning session. And in front of everybody, he said, oh, all right, so what's the diagnosis? And I said, gathering myself to get some sound out of my vocal chords. It's vocal nodules. I have to go on vocal rest. And he said, huh, just as I thought, bad usage.
Doree: Whoa.
Kate: Wow.
Samara: It's, and it's not even that phrase has some cultural significance, but we all felt it, right? It's like, oh, just to be clear, Samara, you're not just the victim here of this injury. You're the perpetrator. You fucked yourself up. And that feeling of shame, why did I sabotage myself like this? is part of the heartbeat of this book because whether you were, you've just been pulled aside to say you no, your voice is too high and girly, or to say that you say like too much. Most of us have had some version of that moment where we're like, why did I pick this up? Why did I do this to myself? What's wrong with me? And now I've coached thousands of people through workshops and stuff, and I'm like, oh my God, this is so universal. And we're all stuck being like, this is so me. So yeah, Doree. I mean, yeah, you're saying, are these things wrong? I hope I've made it clear they're not wrong. They are valuable in the moment. And then we get to take real ownership of our own voice. What is this finding your voice thing that everybody talks about? Well, why did it go missing? Why did it go missing? And if you can own that story, the parts that happened to you and the parts that you did, then you get to choose, and hopefully not in a way that feels like well sub out this sound and sub in this sound, right? But rather get to, I mean, the word permission is in this book because that it's a feeling, it's a physical feeling of freedom that comes from stuff like those moments where you collect, connect with your friends, you remember your greatest communication style, and you go, oh, that's not always a one-to-one perfect mapping to your work version of yourself, but there's something provocative and juicy there. Who are you around your favorite people? What's that voice?
Kate: So
Samara: I love you guys so much.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back. Okay. We're back.
Kate: For folks who are not white hetero men so who are essentially marginalized in those spaces, how do they find power in their voices? And ultimately, how do we ourselves check our own accent bias, Which you talk so well about and become more aware of when we're doing it? Because I find myself doing it, I find myself doing it with younger folks.
Samara: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I'm noticing a difference in the way 20 year olds, they speak really quickly, and I have a hard time figuring it out. And it's like, what? And I'm realizing I'm coming from a completely different world of communication than I am. The way they've been raised, the world and environment in which they've been raised is completely different than me. And I'm, your book actually kind of made me be like, oh bitch, you're doing this.
Samara: Oh, I love that.
Kate: Yeah, I, that's how I read that chapter. I was like, oh, no,
Samara: The second half of this, it's like, what are the ways in which we are not just the victim of voice bias, but also perpetuating it and perpetuating it on ourselves? So how are we listening to other people and accidentally discounting them because their accent is different from ours, or because they're speaking style, as you say. Feels foreign, but how much are we also turning that on ourselves and saying, well, I don't sound like what authoritative people should sound like. Why would anybody take, I don't even take me seriously. So yeah, I mean, your question is so big and it's so real, and this is really who my book is for. I mean, I joke about this in my intro, but even the straight white men among us, probably under the surface, have some complicated relationships to their voice. But
Kate: That anecdote
Samara: They're not often the ones who know it.
Kate: Yeah. The man at the beginning who's like, I've never had to ask for permission to speak.
Samara: Goodness. So good. So good. So good. Yeah. I mean, literally this dude said in front of me, wow, permission to speak. That's not something I've ever asked for, but, and I was like, oh my God, thank you so much for providing me, a lovely opening gambit for my books, Sir. I wonder if he'll ever read this book. Perhaps not given that. But here's the thing. So if you're a woman, if you're a person of color, if English is your second language or you have any accent that you're aware of, marks you as different, you already know on some level, the world treats me differently because of how I talk. Whether you put together that exact sentence or not in your mind, I don't need to convince you that there's a problem here. So the question is then what? And the answer has to do with personal decisions we make and also cultural decisions. No, that's not really the right word, but sort of a cultural conversation around bias that I'm hoping that this book and that the ideas in it spur, because yes, we can't be telling anybody who's already marginalized, who's already feeling a extra burden at work, a psychic burden, to then also go through 80 billion hoops, which is how a lot of the executive presence coaching, that's what they have to say, is sort of good luck. That can't be all end all. The other part of it is for any business that is theoretically interested in hiring diversely and thus doing so, how do you listen with diverse ears? How do you listen to different communication styles and have your voice bias? Because biases are instantaneous. We can't not have them. But then have the second thought, oh, I just accidentally discounted that person because of how they said that. Let me be in right relationship with my voice and everyone else's, and go, huh, can I please lean into curiosity here? Can I please, can please support the type of world I actually like to live in by being it right now? And those both parts of that I have tools for in the book. And part of it is also about the solidarity aspect. Just having this conversation with more people, knowing that when we speak up and sound like a version of ourselves, that we recognize better, that it feels scary, that it's a risky move, that we might not be able to do that in a space that truly doesn't feel safe. But what about when we do have a tiny bit more power? What gamble are we going to take in that space? And then to go, Ooh, that felt weird. Okay, I am going to call that a hashtag permission to speak moment. And that was real, and I'm going to share that with somebody. And I do take this really seriously in obviously really playful way when I do podcast interviews because I'm talk about modeling. This is our opportunity to be the new sound of power. And I don't mean that in that masculine coded way that we talk about power, where we mean power over people. I mean, we get to define, we get to decide by how we talk and how we listen, who we take seriously, and what if it isn't based on those old rules that don't serve us? And if you start to, I mean, this is an offer that I love to give because I need it for myself. If we start to think about who we really do love to listen to, obviously for those of you listening who's whose voices you like to have in your ear? I mean, Kate and Doree are on that list.
Kate: People do like our voices sometimes.
Samara: And there's the Michelle Obamas and the AOCs and the Esther PLLs and outside the box, people from your community, I wouldn't know or from your family, but start to think about voices that you love. Think about the voices around you, who that make you lean in that you actually like to listen to that don't necessarily fit any of those old timey standards around how we're supposed to sound and what they do to you. And not, because obviously then you should sound like them, but because they will give you permission sound like you.
Kate: This is the perfect note for us to end on. I am taking away so much from this conversation.
Doree: Same Kate, when I start speaking completely differently on this podcast,
Kate: I'm going to honor it, you do sometimes use a French accent. You do like to, that's Incorporate your background in French.
Doree: That's true. That's true. I am French actually.
Kate: Well, and you know what? I see you and I honor you, and that is your story, and I'm going to, I'm going to welcome it.
Doree: Thank you so much, Samara.
Samara: My work here is done.
Kate: You did it. You solved everything for us. Where can our listeners, where can our listeners find you and your work? Your book is available everywhere books can be found, and it's fantastic. As I'm sure you can gather from this conversation, it's filled with so much insight. But where else can we find you?
Samara: My favorite place is Instagram. If anybody wants to follow me @SamaraBay, I drop a new reel every Tuesday. That's actual tips and permission hacks,
Kate: love a reel.
Samara: But also, I'm for the moment at least still very much in my dms, and I'm like, I love when people contact me about what's been meaningful to them here. And then go to SamaraBay.com for book stuff. There's dropping some new cool things. I have a course on there if you want to see my face more and talk about this stuff in a little bit more of a sense of community. Yeah. Oh, I have one other thing. If you are thinking, what do I do for the five minutes before I have a podcast interview or a whatever so that I can give myself the greatest chance of showing up as myself? I wish I had a warmup. Here it is. samarabay.com/goodies. It's free. Please get it.
Kate: Ooh, thank you for that. Yeah,
Doree: Amazing. All right, well, thanks, Samara. This was so fun to talk to you.
Samara: I love you guys. I love what you're doing. I appreciate you
Kate: Back at yo,
Doree: Samara was so great, and her book is great. It's such a good combination of, I love a book that's a combination of memoir plus guidebook and prescription, and it's very helpful. I think people will get a lot out of it.
Kate: All right. Well, listen, let's get too old intention Town usa, where we like to live. I will speak for myself here. Last week, I had really been enjoying this kind of nightly reading time that I've been having with my kids, and it has continued into this week. I even lit a fire one night in the fireplace, and then I had to text Anthony and I was like, am I going to burn down the house with the gas fumes? Because I haven't really lit this fireplace before but we've been doing it. It's been really fun. I really, really especially love getting to talk to my kids about what they're reading, and that's been very rewarding.
Doree: That's very cool.
Kate: Also, last night we made brownies instead of books.
Doree: Look at all this bonding
Kate: In between the fighting and the yelling and the moping and the drama and the playing of SZA's Kill Bill over and over again. We are bonding. This week, I am going to be focusing on a new desktop app and mobile. I have it on mobile. Now it up, have it on every thing that I used. That's a screen that I've been using to plan my day out called Sun Samma.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: I Am really connecting with this app. If you are it, it fills in the whole missing for me between Google Calendar and Asana.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Google Calendar is my main planning tool. Asana is one that I'm really kind of trying to see if I can get into in terms of to-do list. I've been tracking things on there. I track the books that I'm reading, books that I'm blurbing. actually, I created a editorial board for my current book that I'm writing on there.
Doree: Oh, cool.
Kate: I think you can really do a lot on Asana, and I really like it. I'm just seeing if I'm actually going to stick with it. But Sun Sama,
Doree: Sun Sama,
Kate: S U N S A M A, I don't know how I found this. I think had just, it was one of my frantic Google's thing, searches. I've had the frantic Google search at least once a week. This app has never come up. And one day it did.
Doree: Interesting,
Kate: And it's kind of like the missing link for me. They describe it as the daily planner for busy professionals. This is what they say on their website. It says, sin SanSama organizes your work one day at a time. Every day should feel calm and focused. So I'm still in the trial period of it. I think I'm on day eight, and I love it.
Doree: Cool.
Kate: So I will possibly start paying for it, but it integrates seamlessly with my Google calendar and with Asana.
Doree: Okay. That's interesting because I feel, and I might be confusing this with something else, but my recollection is that when you and I first tried to use Asana, there was an issue with Google Calendar integration.
Kate: So don't, it's interesting you say that. I don't know. I don't have Asana and Google Calendar really connected. Asana is where I'm tracking to-dos.
Doree: Okay. Yeah. I think there was an issue. Anyway,
Kate: And I will say we, you and I use, and Sammy, our project manager, use Trello. We do use Trello, and I think Trello is way more effective for what we need in terms of
Doree: A team.
Kate: Yes. Asana, I'm still kind of I'm struggling with, I need something more colorful. This is a little too corporate looking, but there are things that I do like about it. So all that being said, everybody check out Sun sama.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Its really, especially those of you like me who have a hard time with time management. I'm looking at you, my fellow ADDs, but also anybody, you don't have to be a NeuroD as I call us.
Doree: Well, Kate, speaking of planners,
Kate: Oh my God, yes. I've been saving this question, Doree and I are in person. She, we got to my house and I was like, how's the full focus planner going? And then I said, save it for the pod.
Doree: I left the house kind of in a flurry, and I forgot to bring it. I meant to bring it. I would say it's going pretty well. I'm definitely using it. Like I said, I was really going to commit to it and give it a shot. It has been helpful definitely in terms of to-dos and prioritizing tasks.
Kate: Good.
Doree: So that's been good. I also started digging into some of their stuff around goal, bigger goal setting. And again, the vibe is a little off.
Kate: Thats right. That's right. You're a little bit cult leadery
Doree: It's a little culty. They have this thing called the smarter framework to set your goals, and I'm like, Ugh, A framework with an acronym, come on. But I think the things that they said, I was like, okay, that actually does kind of make sense. So here's what smarter stands for. The S stands for specific. You need the goal to be specific. So instead they say, instead of saying, I want to learn photography, the specific thing is complete this person's fundamentals of photography course. I'm like, okay, that actually does make sense.
Kate: That helps
Doree: Not like get better at tennis, but whatever. You get it. The M stands for measurable, so something that can be quantifiable. The A is action oriented. So their example, which I was like, okay, relatable. They said a bad example would be more consistent in blogging, a better example. Write two blog posts per week. I was like, okay, I hear that. I hear that. And then the first R stands for risky, which I was like, oh, okay. They say, you have to make sure your goal is in your discomfort zone. And I was like,
Kate: That surprises me.
Doree: Oh, okay. I see what you're doing here. I'm not on board with that. Right. Because I think it's is easy to stay in your comfort zone. T is time keyed. Make sure your goal has a deadline. The E is for exciting. Make sure your goal is personally exciting and compelling to you. And then the second R stands for relevant. Make sure your goal is appropriate to your season of life. So I went through that whole thing and I was like, seems great. I was like, okay, fine.
Kate: Wow. I mean, that all actually seems really helpful,
Doree: Right? And so I realized, no one has ever taught me how to set a goal.
Kate: God, no. I know that's kind of what it's doing.
Doree: And that's kind of what it's doing. And the examples they gave, I was like, yeah, I do see how that is a better way to phrase this, and gives you something more concrete to work towards something measurable. You know what I mean? And so I was like, huh, okay.
Kate: That's very interesting.
Doree: So, it's just been interesting. Now, do I need the emails that are the breakthrough resource you've been waiting for?
Kate: Oh, No. Oh, no.
Doree: And then it's like, buy this thing.
Kate: Yeah. That's frustrating. I don't love that.
Doree: Yeah. So that is a little, that's the thing about the general vibe of the whole system that I don't love. So I'm trying to just take what I need from it, I guess. I don't know. And maybe there is no perfect planner.
Kate: I want to believe that there is
Doree: I know, and I feel like we keep encountering this in various forms.
Kate: You know, like theres a perfect backpack or perfect jeans,
Doree: Yes. Exactly.
Kate: And there's not, And were being, I this, I'll talk about this later, but I think this is part of my frustration with influencing on TikTok is we're being constantly sold that there is,
Doree: Yes. Well, one of my favorite newsletters, Blackbird Spy Plane had,
Kate: Oh, I don't follow that one.
Doree: A great newsletter about this whole idea of optimization culture mean, it was probably about a year ago now, but it was really taking to task sites, the wire cutter, all these sites are the best.
Kate: The strategist,
Doree: Yeah. Yeah. The best, blah, blah, blah. And it's, first of all, what the metrics are. Not all, I've bought things from wire cutter that are the best, X, Y, Z, that I'm like, this isn't that great for me. This is not that great. So just this idea that we could impose a standardized objective measure on every single fucking thing is, and it's also sort of flattening. If everyone buys the same spatula,
Kate: Then we're all kind of becoming just copies of each ourselves.
Doree: Exactly. Yes. So I don't know,
Kate: I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot. Also, just never trusting. It takes away trusting ourselves a little bit.
Doree: Yes, totally. And what if I want a pink flowered spatula? What if I don't want,
Kate: But that's not cool aesthetic. That's the other thing that's driving me fucking nuts, is this whole idea of aesthetic and how everybody's aesthetic is the same, or how that's even a consideration and not functionality.
Doree: Well, okay, just one more. Okay.
Kate: We're on a new soapbox
Doree: Along these lines and then, okay. Here we go, and then we can wrap. But my son needs a new laundry basket and there was a part of me that was like, oh, I should just Google best laundry basket. And then I was like, no. And I just showed him, I was like, Hey, do you want to pick out a new laundry basket? And I showed him all the options and he was like, that one. And he picked it out great. And I was like, great. I'm going to order it. Done.
Kate: Good job, done.
Doree: So
Kate: It's the best for you.
Doree: It's the best for me. All right.
Kate: Wow, We really took a turn. I didn't know it was going to go there but.
Doree: It did take a turn.
Kate: I'm curious about this. All right, well, I guess we must wrap it up and just let you all know that this show Forever35 is hosted and produced by us Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast, and we thank you all for listening.
Doree: Bye.