Episode 241: Addicted To Romance with Kennedy Ryan
Kate swipes on a red lip to celebrate Taylor Swift Day and Doree travels south via a new podcast. Then, romance author Kennedy Ryan joins the podcast to talk about her personal relationship to depression and its connection to her latest book Before I Let Go, the algorithm bias of BookTok actively peripheralizing BIPOC authors, and the importance of women and friendship in her romance writing.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No. But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about Serums.
Kate: Visit our website for Forever35podcast for links to everything we mention on the show. You know, our Twitter @Forever35pod. Our Instagram @Forever35podcast, Forever35 Facebook group where the password is serums. You can shop our favorite prods at shopmy.us/forever35. Sign up for the newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. Leave us a voicemail, a text. I'm just gonna keep going. 7 8 1 5 9 1 0390.
Doree: Keep going Kate, you're doing great.
Kate: Thank you. Email is forever35podcast@gmail.com And of course we've got a delightful merch collab with the folks at Balance Bound, which you can find at balancebound.com/shop/forever35.
Doree: Woo. Yes, you did great there.
Kate: Thank you.
Doree: You are so welcome.
Kate: Thank you so much.
Doree: Kate. You are celebrating a national holiday today.
Kate: I am celebrating on the day of this recording. We record a little early ahead of schedule so we stay on top of things. Today is National Taylor Swift released Midnight's Day here in real time and I am just enjoying all my Taylor Swiftiness and her new album, Midnight Switch. Rolling Stone declared an instant classic, Doree, I don't know if you saw that but Rolling Stone called it a classic.
Doree: I did not, was that Rob Sheffield?
Kate: Oh, that's a great question. I don't know. Let me go to my Taylor Swift text message chain and scroll back up for the link. Hold on here, there are so...
Doree: I mean, I'm just curious. It seems like he would be the one to review it, but you know
Kate: Hold on. I'm almost there. No, it's Brittney Spanos. I dont know her.
Doree: Oh, Brittney Spanos. Sure, sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kate: Thats right, you worked at Rolling Stone. Well, she did. She declared it an instant classic.
Doree: She was not there. Brittany was not there when I was there, but I just kind of knew her from, knew of her from music writing circles. And she's really wonderful and I'm really glad that she writes for them now because it was very white male heavy when I was there.
Kate: Yuck.
Well, Taylor nailed it. She nailed it. It's a great album. I, I'm enjoying it immensely. I'm getting emotional look like she sucks me in every time she comes back. Better than a nineties trend. Stronger than a nineties trend, that's what happened. She comes back stronger than a nineties trend, which is what she did at this album. She just sucks me back in every time. I am a swifty, I'm a Disney adult, I'm a swifty. I'm like literally the most basic stereotype of a white American woman. And here I am, Swifting away.
Doree: Look, I'm glad that you own it.
Kate: Yeah, I mean what else am I gonna do? you, know? But it's good. The album's good. And you know what else and I put this in our newsletter, but there's a new Waxahatchee collab album with an artist named Jess Williamson. They call themselves Plains and their new album is also excellent. So I've just had kind of a nice music week. It's been really, I've putting on tunes and trying not to scroll on my phone as much and just if I'm sitting with my kids, we put on music and it's been pleasant.
Doree: I love that. That's really nice.
Kate: You're not celebrating today. You don't celebrate Taylor Swift Day.
Doree: I like Taylor Swift <affirmative>. I would not call myself a Swifty. <affirmative> <affirmative>. I have seen her in concert twice. But yeah, I will listen to the new album, but I'm not, I've not listened to it yet. I guess I'll just say that. So I'm not
Kate: That's fair.
Doree: I'm not celebrating Taylor Swift Day in the same way that you are. But I respect it. So I will say I'm listening to, I am listening to a new podcast,
Kate: What is it?
Doree: It is called Gone South. And I did not listen to season one that I picked it up in season two, which just started. And it's about a gang of criminals in the south called the Dixie Mafia.
Kate: Ooh, wow. Okay. It's good?
Doree: It's quite good. I'm enjoying it. It's like, it's true crime, but a journalistic true crime.
Kate: Yeah, that sounds good. I have had a hard time listening to podcasts lately.
Doree: you know, Kate, I also was having a hard time listening to a podcast and I was like, I really wanna get into a podcast. The only problem is that I've now gotten into this on time and so there's only two episodes out I like to binge.
Kate: Oh that's the worst feeling.
Doree: now I have to wait.
Kate: I know. So weird how we've gotten, you know, like growing up. We didn't have the same access to media.
Doree: No.
Kate: So this whole idea of binging content just was not a thing. We were accustomed to waiting. In fact, the waiting was the hardest part as Tom Petty saying <affirmative>. But it was the best part kind that when you finish the episode and then you know have to wait a whole week for something.
Doree: Totally. Well and also if you missed it and you didn't record it on your vcr, which you might or might not have, then <affirmative>, you missed it. <laugh>.
Kate: Oh yes. I mean I have painful memories of, I set the VCR to record The New Kids On The Block, on local Boston talk show, People Are Talking and then my brother took it out and put a Disney video in and I never got to see that interview. And still, so I've never been more angry in my fricking life. I can still feel the rage coming home from school
Doree: With Tom Bergron?
Kate: Yes. Remember? People Are Talking.
Doree: I do remember People Are Talking
Kate: I'm pretty sure this interview is now on YouTube. Cause I think I've gone back and looked for it. But for my whole life, this feeling of, I never got to see this fucking interview and I had, so yes. So we don't have that anymore right now. We're so used to getting all the content <affirmative> that it's frustrating when you have to wait. But maybe it's a good practice. Maybe it, I don't know.
Doree: I mean sure. Except what up sometimes ends up happening with this kind of thing is I then forget I move on <laugh> <affirmative>, you know what I mean? The week between episodes I find something else and then I forget. But then it's kind of good because then I remember later and come back and by then all the episodes were there.
Kate: Doree, I'm looking at Gone South and this is hosted by Jed Lipinski. He graduated from college a year behind me. He's a Bates College alum.
Doree: What? Oh my goodness.
Kate: Bates College. He was friends with my ex-boyfriend.
Doree: What a small world.
Kate: We weren't friends, but I recognized this person immediately. Yeah. Congratulations to you fellow Bates College alum, Jed Lipinski
Doree: That's so funny.
Kate: That's pretty cool. Oh, go us just two Bates podcasters. One of us winning award. Well you know what? We've won awards. I'm not gonna talk down about myself. Yeah,
Doree: Yeah, We've won awards
Kate: We've won two iHeartRadio awards. So what if this is a Peabody award-winning show? Sorry, I took my ADHD meds right before this podcast. I'm a little peppy today.
Doree: I'm gonna follow Jed Lipinski on Twitter.
Kate: Oh, What a discovery. Yeah. So good recommendation. Thank you.
Doree: Thank you. Thanks so much. Well Kate, should we get to our guest?
Kate: Oh yeah. Cuz we have a really fun, nice long chat to share with you. Oh this was a fun one. I mean we say the same, we say this every time, but we have just an embarrassment of riches when it comes to the people we get to interview.
Doree: Well it's funny with this particular, with guests like this one who I felt like she was like your guest, she was like your person <affirmative> <affirmative>. But I really enjoyed talking to her too. So I love guests like that where they seem to be kind of much more in one of our worlds.
Kate: Yes. Our wheelhouses if you will.
Doree: Our wheelhouses. Yes, exactly. But I really enjoyed our conversation and loved hearing her perspective on book talk and just so many different things.
Kate: So today's guest is Kennedy Ryan, a writer who I love. Her new book is coming out on November 15th. It's called Before I Let Go. So let us tell you about Kennedy. She's a romance writer and she is an amazing romance writer. She is a Rita Award winner, top 25 Amazon bestseller. She says she writes for women from all walks of life empowering them and placing them firmly at the center of each story and in charge of their own destinies, where heroes respect, cherish and lose their minds for the women who capture their hearts, I mean she is just, Chef's Kiss, she is a journalist, she is a wife, mother to an extraordinary son contributor to Modern Mom Magazine. She's the founder and executive director of a foundation serving Atlanta families living with autism. She's appeard on Headline News, NPR, Montel Williams as an advocate for families living with autism. And she's a really iconic and incredible writer. And if you aren't familiar with her work, I'm gonna include a link in the show notes to this YouTube video that I found <affirmative> with a book tour just raving and kind of giving you a rundown of a lot of her books cause she's a prolific writer and we just had such a fun chat with her. It was just like, a real blast.
Doree: Yeah, it was great. Alright, so without further ado, here is Kennedy.
Kate: Well Kennedy, we're so excited to have you on Forever 35. I first came to your work when someone at The Ripped bought us here in Los Angeles shoved Queen Move in my hands while I asked for book recommendations and it's been a reader love affair ever since. So welcome to Forever 35. Thank you for coming on the show.
Kennedy: Thank you guys for having me. Thank you so much. I'm excited to chat about whatever you guys wanna talk about. I'm excited. <laugh>.
Kate: Okay, well buckle up.
Kennedy: Buckling! I'm Buckling
Kate: Yeah. Put it in. Get ready. We like to start every interview with a question for all our guests, which is what is a self care practice that you are currently implementing in your own life? It can look like anything that we would love to know if you have something <affirmative>.
Kennedy: I'm in such a hectic season, I'm having to really think how am I caring for myself? <laugh> one of my favorite things to do is to walk. I haven't been doing it. You're reminding me that I haven't been as consistent with it as usual. But that is actually my favorite thing to do is to be out in fresh air. And sometimes when I'm writing, and I know we're talking about self care, not writing, but sometimes when I'm writing and I'm completely just locked up, I will go for a walk and a couple of walks around the block. And the reason I'm not walking the way I usually do is because we're in having a house built. And so I'm in a space that's not as familiar to walk, so I'm not doing it as much. But when I have my own space, I walk around the block, I walk by the library, I walk around the schools and just deep, deep breathe and play some of my favorite music and that it feeds me.
Music is really, really rejuvenating for me. I can't even explain how music speaks to me. I will have a playlist. I actually do, right now I have a playlist of about a hundred songs and I haven't even really started writing the book. Music comes to me first and it speaks to me, it soothes me. And so a long walk in either spring or Autumn Air is my favorite. Crisp or not muggy with my favorite songs. And really what I think the key to that is, is it's time by myself. Cause I am a mom, I'm a special needs mom. It's very demanding. Of course I'm a wife I have all these obligations and I find that I just need time by myself sometimes. And my husband is amazing about this, especially when I'm under deadline. I will just go check into a hotel for a few days by myself.
And that to me is one of the biggest things that I've just started hoarding for myself. I feel like a lot of times, especially as wives and moms, we feel like those things are extravagances. And for me, coming out of the pandemic and where my mind was, where my emotions were and what was demanded of me and of my family honestly, those things that started that used to feel like extravagances, now they feel like just necessities. Having somebody to come clean my house once a month, making sure that I will set aside time to go check into a hotel. My husband's on the road a lot when he comes home, sometimes I'm like, I gotta go <laugh>, I gotta go.
He's great. He's great about supporting me so that I can do that for myself.
Kate: There's something about that cuz I have actually done this too, where my husband also works crazy hours and when it's done I'm like, I gotta get outta here. And it's almost like you just need to decompress and quiet for 24 hours.
Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's funny because my son has autism and so he has a lot of sensory issues and ever since he was young, when he was really young, he would come home from school, This is tmi, but he was young, he would strip naked, completely naked. He would go into his room, he would turn on all the lights, he would pull the covers over his head because there was just so much sensory input from the day that he had to decompress. And he still has his versions of that even though he's much older now. And I was like, you've got the right idea, kid <laugh> like <affirmative> and I just need to go into a room and turn off the lights and lie down and put on some noise canceling headphones and just rejuvenate. So
Kate: I think you make an interesting point too, and I'm not speaking from experience, but from what I hear from friends is that as a parent of a special needs kid, I feel like self, your own self care is extremely important. And that's often forgotten in this kind of neuro world that's so geared towards neurotypical people. I don't know if that's been your experience, but I'm curious if you have thoughts as a parent of a special needs child.
Kennedy: I mean I can only speak for my experience and the experience of a lot of my friends who have kids who are special needs or specifically on the spectrum cuz that's kind of a lot of the spaces that I'm in. I remember when my son was first diagnosed parents who had been around for a long time, they said, Remember this is a marathon, not a sprint. Cause you hit the ground running <affirmative>. As soon as my son was diagnosed, I was like, what do I need to do? And you're like, Yeah, you're in the wind and you're doing everything. And for me there's a part of me that always feels like I need to fix things, I need to help, what can I do? And so I actually started a foundation for families who have children with autism, which I ran for about 13 years before my career.
Just got to be so much that I couldn't do both things. But in doing all of that, in trying to generate resources for other families and tracking down resources for mine and doing the work of being really my son is on the more severe end. And around the clock caregiver, you just put your head down and you just do whatever's necessary. And it's not until later that you realize, oh my gosh, I'm really fraying. I'm really at a place that I, I'm sad or I'm really tired or I'm unmotivated. And I think that for me and for a lot of parents, we just forget, especially moms, we just forget. And the thing that they always say, you know, put your mask on first. <affirmative>you don't, you know that's the truth. That's what you're supposed to do. And that if you conk out you're no good to anybody.
But in the moment it feels like this thing, getting all of these things done for them is the most important thing. And you lose sight of that. And I think especially during the pandemic and I think in talking to other parents, all parents, because all of us were trapped at home and a lot of our kids were at home. But for a lot of special needs parents, when you get down to it, a lot of us didn't have access to therapies. We didn't have the resources that come with school. Those outlets where for a few hours each day your child is occupied, engaged. And it's not you <laugh> having to do that, especially as someone who works full time. But I think that especially from, I can only speak for my family, the pandemic was such a pressure cooker. Our house became such a pressure cooker because my son did not have access to therapies and the only therapies that they were doing were online.
And my son doesn't really function that way and he couldn't access therapies and he didn't have, because he doesn't really function online that way. He didn't have access to school and we were having a tutor come in to try to maintain, but he was really losing a lot of the gains that, and I mean it's heartbreaking. Things that we work years and years and years to gain during the pandemic just slipped away. And that is discouraging. It's heartbreaking. And I can just think about days because I was diagnosed with depression during the pandemic and days when I would hear him, I don't wanna get emotional <laugh> this early in the podcast <affirmative>, but I would hear him in a room just like crying, just crying. And I'm sitting on the floor and I'm just crying. Yeah, just crying. And I'm this, oh my gosh, why is it like this? Why is the world like this right now? And it became really hard to take care of him and to take care of myself. And I think for me, my mission was just get this kid out of this thing alive because he was also immuno-compromised. So there are a lot of lessons I learned during the pandemic and a lot I learned about myself and my limits and not assuming that I don't have any <laugh>.
So mm-hmm <affirmative> to over answer. Your question <laugh>?
Kate: No. Well you bring up depression and <affirmative>, you dig into that so deeply. And before I let go and we had written a question kind of asking about what inspired this choice for this character and maybe before we talk about that, could you give our listeners an overview about what your new book is about?
Kennedy: People are really into tropes right now. <laugh>
Kate: <affirmative>. So love a trope
Kennedy: first, the elevator version. Probably the easiest way to do it is to trope it first. It's divorced couple it is lots of pining, <laugh> it's co-parenting. So both single parents but involved with each other. They run. So they're raising their children together. They live in Atlanta. They had a restaurant together called Grits and now they're still running it together. They're business partners. It is a soulmate story. I like to think most of my stories are soulmate stories, but if you can imagine thinking someone is your soulmate and then losing that person in your life. But still it's forced proximity I guess. Also <affirmative>, you've lost that person. The intimacy and the everyday. And we're doing our lives together as lovers, as partners. But I still have to see you every day because we run a business together and I still have to see you every day cuz we're raising our kids together and there's a lot of unresolved issues.
And the love, I think, I am not the reader, I'm the writer, but I hear people say, and I sense that the love that they still have for each other, the emotion between them is palpable. From the beginning you know this ain't over, you know, still feel that chemistry between them but you know something broke, something broke in this process. And I think it's highlighted because the prologue is him proposing and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is so sweet. This is amazing <laugh>, this is <affirmative> something. And in chapter one they're divorced and you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. So something broke, <affirmative>. And so the first few chapters is really just unpacking where they are, but then also giving you flashes of how they as a couple and as a family broke. Because the things that happened, there's like a series of losses and those losses we're talking about depression and we're talking about how we handle our mental health.
Both of them went to their corners and handled grief and loss in different ways. She has this line in the book where she says, I realize that we were completely incompatible in our grief. It's like that he did kind of the typical man thing where he just was like, Okay, I'm gonna keep us afloat. I'm gonna pay the bills, I'm gonna do this, but what I'm not gonna do is access all this pain or unpack all of these feelings. And she was like, I can't get out of this pain, I can't get out of these feelings. She had complicated grief, which is grief that goes beyond a year or so. She really just could not move on and was dealing with depression. And so a lot fell apart when they were handling things in opposite ways. And when the book starts, and this is not a spoiler because it's right at the beginning, but when the book starts, she's on the up, she's, she's found the right therapist.
And people who read the book, and I don't wanna give too much away, but she goes through a few therapists before she finds the right one. And I will admit that came from me cuz I went through three therapists before I found the right one. But on. And I really, really, in this book, there's a lot of on page therapy, there's a lot of direct dealing with mental health. She is on antidepressants, as am I, I actually drafted a first draft of this book literally 15 years ago before I even published my, this is, I wrote just a version of this before my first book actually published, but it was under my digital bed. I wasn't thinking about it at all. And my husband, I was like, I don't know what to write next because usually when I write there is an inciting incident <laugh>. I'm not one of these people who's like, Ooh, what if I wrote stepbrothers? Oh my gosh, what if I wrote this? That's just not how I've come to story. And so for me it's like you mentioned Queen Move, that's a part of All the Kings Men, that series I was watching pipeline protests on television and I was like, Ooh. And what if they kiss?
Kate: IIts always like, what they kiss is always a great, yes.
Kennedy: But activism is something that runs really strong through most of my work. So usually something has provoked me or inspired me or whatever. And so I didn't have anything in that moment. And so when my agent was, What are you writing next? I was like, I really dont know. And my husband goes, What about that divorce book? And I'm like, The one from when I wasn't even a writer, he's like, Yeah, that one. And I pulled it out and completely tore it down and reconstructed it. But it was exactly what I needed to write at that time. Now, when I first started writing before I let go I had not been diagnosed with depression. I was diagnosed with depression in the middle of writing before I let go. But before the pandemic even started, I had gone to my doctor for my annual and she said, you know, fill out the little questionnaire.
And she's like, You have quite a few indicators for depression. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, because I'm so used to living with this low level home of stress in my life, I was like, Yeah that's just my life. That's just my life. She goes, Well, we need to keep an eye on it. And then the pandemic happened and that kind of fell off my radar and I didn't realize it was getting worse and worse and worse. And I hadn't written for six months and I thought I had writer's block and when I got into therapy I still couldn't write. And she goes, Well, I don't think it's writers block. I think you actually have depression. <laugh>.
Kate: Wow. You know what? That's such a good point too, because I feel like sometimes when these mental health things are happening we don't realize it until someone else points it out. So that's grateful that you bring that up.
Kennedy: I didn't think about it. My husband one day said, Do you realize that you don't really get out of bed? And I was like, What? And he goes, You're in bed all day, even when you're working, you work from bed, you just don't ever get out of bed. And I'm like, It's the pandemic. Who wants to get outta bed? And he's like, Well, it's just kinda, you know <laugh>.
Kate: Okay, well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, we are back.
Doree: Kennedy. I'm wondering how you came to Romance. What was kind of your gateway? Were you a big romance reader? Was your mom into romance?
Kennedy: My mom was into me not reading Romance <laugh>.
Doree: Okay, okay.
Kennedy: It's so funny because I started reading Romance when I was in the eighth grade. That was a long time ago. It was a long time ago.
Doree: Who were you reading in eighth grade?
Kennedy: Oh my gosh. I was reading all the good stuff. Some of it doesn't even stand the test of time, but at the moment it was the best thing ever I was reading was reading The Wolf and the Dove. I'm that old <laugh>, you know what I mean? So I was reading Harlequin Presents in the eighth grade. I was reading Oh gosh, my mind is going completely blank, but Joanna Lindsay, that's what romance was at that time. <affirmative>. And I am for people who don't know, I'm a black woman and I, that's even before, and I'm really telling my age, but that was even before Beverly Jenkins started first publishing. So there wasn't a lot on the landscape of in historical romance, but just a lot of, I was reading that even reflected who I was. But it was all that there was. And so I think my gateway, Sarah McLean always says, what blooded you?
<laugh> historical romance is kind of what blooded me. And then and my mom definitely did not want me reading romance. I was smuggling novels into the house. I was hiding them under the mattress. I was stuffing them in bags. I was addicted. I loved it. And when I got to college, sometimes when you go to college, you want, it's time to read the serious books, then it's time to read the "real books" when you're in college. And so for a long time, once I got to college and I started really focusing on my degree, I didn't read romance for a long time. And I mentioned before that my son was diagnosed with autism. And it just kind of threw me into, okay, what do we have to do? What are the services? What are the resources? Oh I'm gonna start a foundation. All of this stuff.
And I needed an escape and I remembered how much I loved romance. And so that's when I came back to reading romance and it was just mine. It was just for me, it was just an escape for me. It was something that was satisfying and it was safe. It gave me a safe place to land. It guaranteed me it was guaranteed happily ever after. I needed those things. I still need those things. I think of romances of the genre of hope, honestly, Hope and happily ever after because we guarantee those things. And that's still what I love about romance. And a lot of people will read my books and they're like, sometimes they're like, Is this even romance <laugh>? Because I do deal with heavier topics. But I think the thing for me is even when life is hard, this isn't a space where you can guarantee that things are gonna be fine, that you're gonna have a safe place to land. I can control that here. I can't control it in the real world, but here in this world that I engineer and that I design and that I control, you're gonna end up happy. It might be a road that you have to negotiate, but you're gonna end up happy.
Doree: Yeah. I've heard a lot of people say that they started reading romance during the pandemic for this reason because <affirmative>, not only was it such an escape, but also the predictability of the happy ending was so comforting. And I really think there is something to that.
Kennedy: Oh yeah. Oh, I agree. I agree. And I, I'm amazed at how many new romance readers we have, especially through BookTok. It's just like I <affirmative> shocked when I see people say, I just started reading Romance 18 months ago, <laugh>. And some of the books that they're discovering that in Romance Landia we're like, That's a six year old book. Oh my gosh. You're just finding that. That's amazing.
Kate: BookTok is wild, BookTok has been, and for anyone unfamiliar who's listening the way Tik, it's tick book culture on TikTok and it's different than anything I've seen before. And it's amazing and very influential. I mean, I know Colleen Hoover is the name that gets thrown around a lot, but it's, it's been influential with a lot of different writers and genres. Its amazing.
Kennedy: For sure. It definitely has. Definitely.
Kate: It's also funny you mentioned that because I saw, I was watching a video that someone made on YouTube, like a book tube and they were talking about how you're their favorite author and it was a guide to all your books. But then they were like, Oh gosh, I just started reading her books, I'll send you the link. They were like, but it was like I just started reading them last year, but they had gone through your entire catalog. So it's people come to stuff at all times. It's so amazing.
Doree: I was just gonna ask if you feel like BookTok and the virality of books and your books has changed anything about the way you write?
Kennedy: No, not for me. I don't think it's changed the way I write. I think it's changed the way I market what I write <affirmative>. Because for me, I write in, I'm not gonna say I write in a bubble cuz I don't, but I'm not someone who's looking at trends or paying, I'm not smart enough to be paying attention to what people want to read. I only wanna write what I wanna write and then I'm gonna do my best to find for people who wanna read it. As opposed to the really smart people who are like, what do people want? Okay, I'm gonna write that. That's not really
Doree: But that is such a that dangerous road to go down when you start writing what you think people wanna read. Right. Because
Kennedy: Yeah, it can be
Doree: I feel like if you do that and you're not writing the stories that you wanna write, you're saying you do. I don't know, I guess some people can pull it off, but I think sometimes, I
Kennedy: Think some people, I think there's some people who find the balance. I think there's some people who find that balance who are like, this is what I want to write and if I package it this way then I know it's gonna appeal to this group of people. I started off talking about tropes and we've always had tropes in romance-landia, but I think BookTok is a lot of times very trope driven. It's, that's the first thing you get is it's like he falls first and touch her and I'll un-alive you. Or if you're talking about mafia and some Dark romance, but we have these phrases that have really become so huge on in BookTok culture for how people find books. I think for me, one of the things that's very interesting is I think that BookTok is revolutionary. I think that it is it's blowing up a lot of careers for me.
And I've spoken about this, I actually did a panel on this a few weeks ago. I'm hoping that at some point I feel like it is by and large bypassing the virality of it. And the power of it is by and large bypassing BIPOC authors. I think that when you look at the authors who are hugely successful, when you look at the books and the content that's being promoted, that's going viral it is by and large white women. And I'm honestly, Colleen and I are good friends. Emily Henry and I are good friends. All of the big romance names, I am very fortunate. All of them are my friends. So this is not about people, this is about systems, this is about the fact that tick, and I don't wanna get too into this because I know that's not what this is about, but I speak on it when I have the chance because I feel like there's this cone of silence around the success of publishing and TikTok and there to me there's like this glaring thing where it's like, yeah, but it's all very white cis head.
It feels in a lot of ways regressive meaning at certain points over the last few years, over the last decade or so, diversity and inclusion has been evolving into something that was a priority. And what I see and what a lot of my friends see, especially my bipoc author friends, is we see diversity and inclusion and BIPOC authors and queer authors, We see us being somewhat, and this is not sour grapes, I'm happy for everybody it's happening for. But what we see is those things that we thought would be so important, especially when we had the protest and it's like all the publishers were like, Oh my gosh, we wanna be inclusive. Oh my gosh, we have to make diversity. Oh my gosh. And all of the content creators and influencers making their profiles black and all of that. <affirmative>, when you look at the way BookTok culture, and I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, this is not about people, this is about systems because racism and bias is systemic.
There are people who operate inside of those systems. But when you look at BookTok, it is by and large systemic because TikTok is already admitted that it is algorithmically biased against people of color. That's a huge problem that TikTok is already acknowledged. So I'm not making that up. But it is by and large peripheralizing bipoc authors, queer authors. And it, the TikTok boom is by and large a white woman's movement. So I can hold two things at once. I can acknowledge that TikTok is amazing, that it's exploding print sales, that it's doing things that are amazing for romance and that it's elevating the profile of romance. I can hold that in one hand. And then the other, I can also say the way this system is set up, it is peripheralizing those who we said we wanted to include. And I'm not sure that anybody is being vigilant about figuring out how to correct that.
Kate: I'm so glad you bring this up cuz this, the BookTok conversation is happening more and more and it's kind of like, wow, can you believe this is happening? And it does seem like the systemic racism involved in the platform is not getting mentioned. And so I'm really glad that you note it because that is a hugely important part of the conversation. Especially as we consider who gets the attention, who gets the money, All these things are tied into it because it's impacting people's real lives.
Kennedy: It definitely is. And again, I'm like, I don't want people to think, Oh my gosh, Kennedy's anti BookTok or, because that's not it at all. I think that any time we have these movements, these explosions of growth and the success generally when those things happen, not just book specific, it's black and brown women who are left behind, it's black and brown women who are peripheralized. So this is not something specific to book culture. This is systemic racism applied in every, And people sometimes when they hear me or other people talk about this, they're the cry up. Why is it always about race? Oh my gosh. And I'm like, well that's the point of systemic racism is that it infiltrates systems <laugh>. So it's everywhere. And some of us have to manage it and some of us dont so,
Kate: And the people who are complaining about why is it always about race, I think they are not seeing that their lives are always benefiting from these systems. It is. It's always about race.
Doree: If you don't have to think about it, that's a huge privilege.
Kate: That's the system playing into your favor.
Kennedy: That is privilege. That is privilege to not have to think about it. I mean I'm very fortunate that, like I said, I am friends with a lot of women who are having a lot of success and a lot of them are cognizant of it, are speaking about it <affirmative>. And I think for people who consider themselves allies who are experiencing success, the best thing you can do is amplify those voices that you see being quieted is talk about those stories that aren't getting the same kind of viral exposure that maybe yours are. And I'm not saying that no one is, but I'm saying when you see black and brown people who have those viral experiences, they tend to be the exception and not the rule. And so anytime you wanna point to that one or remember that one, anytime you find yourself doing that, then oh okay, wait, that's an exception. That's not the rule. So that means the vast majority of people are not experiencing that. And that is a problem.
Kate: This is the first time we've really gotten into BookTok on the pod and I'm very excited to talk. It's exciting to talk about it. Cause I don't really even, I try to just not look at the way I handle my life as a writer is I have to shut out all the outside influences or otherwise I feel like I would be in a spiral the entire time. A panic spiral. Right? But I have been following it in as in terms of reading about it and I find it really interesting. So glad you brought it up.
Kennedy: Why? Well, when Doree asked, I had to think about it
Kate: That's right. Doree, you asked but I think you're
Doree: I know this is my fault. <laugh>.
Kate: No, it's really good, I think its. I like having an authors perspective.
Doree: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad we're talking about it. Yeah. Well and I'm also the only non romance author in this conversation.
Kennedy: Oh yeah, that's true.
Doree: I'm very interested in this as well. So I kind of just wanted to make it clear that I don't think that, you know, have to be a romance author to be fascinated by this whole phenomenon. But on a somewhat I guess on a lighter note, Kennedy, I'm very curious what your favorite trope is.
Kennedy: Second chance, I find myself writing it a lot. <affirmative>. There is something about, and I didn't even know that was to write. I think that's my favorite to read. I don't know that I have a favorite trope to read. I just love good writing. I just love to, There's certain authors so you don't hear a lot about anymore. But Laura Kinsale, who for me is Hall of fame romance writer. You don't hear a lot about her. But I think that she's been a huge influence on me because she writes messy and she doesn't pander and she writes complicated, layered stories and is just like, okay, reader, strap in, here we go. <laugh>, keep up. Yeah. And I love that as a writer that's kind of, I think been influential for me. But as a reader, I think as a writer I tend to write a lot of Second Chance. Before I Let Go is the most second chance, second chance I've ever written because they've been divorced for two years and I love growth. I like it sometimes when I write Second Chance they met when they were really young and sometimes I'll write it and you know, read that part of the story of this it's book two 15 years later and
Kate: I love that.
Kennedy: Theres alot of Oh my God. And I think especially one thing I've noticed about my books when I look at a book, some people may have read a book called Queen Move <affirmative>. When you look at Queen Move, they meet their childhood best friends, literally born on the same day and their best friends up until the eighth grade. And then they have their first kiss at their eighth grade dance. It's like this innocence, The whole first part of the story is just friendship and innocence. And then their families are, they live next, they live across the street from each other and then there's something happens and their families are torn apart and he moves away and they don't see each other for 20 years and people are like 20 years <laugh>. Cause for me, and I noticed that I do this a lot, especially for women in romance, I like to see women establish their own worlds.
I like to see women form who they're going to be without it being I, there's nothing wrong with that. Not there's nothing for wrong with finding love young and being together forever and ever and ever. That's how my husband and I were. But I think for me, there's something about when I'm writing where I like to see women who establish themselves, where they figure out their career, where they figure out what they wanna do and who they wanna be and what they'll accept and what they won't accept. And I give them time in their own life incubator to become a fully formed person with agency and with understanding of their boundaries and their gifts and their strengths and their weaknesses. I like mature women if I guess is what I'm trying to say. And sometimes I like for them to be able to establish themselves before they reconnect with someone they knew when they were young. And then figuring out how we've changed and how we've grown and how we mesh now. I think that's a fascinating dynamic for me.
Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay, we're back.
Kate: Kennedy, one thing I just wanna note that I love that you do so well is friendships. And I think that that is so meaningful and I think that gets a lot of times, I think that non romance readers don't realize that's often a big part of romance is the exploration of these other adult relationships. And I just think that's such an important thing as a reader to get to read and experience for these characters also.
Kennedy: Right. I agree. I think in Before I Let Go specifically, it wasn't in the original version. In the original version that I told you I wrote long, long ago and I tore it down and reconstructed it, that friendship group was not as congealed as in before I let it wasn't as cohesive. In Before I Let Go, there's a group of these three friends, Yasmen Hendrix and Solidad and they are anchors for each other. They are the core and those, this is the Yasmens book, Hendricks and Solada will also get their own books. But's like,
Kate: OOO
Kennedy: yes, I'm excited about it
Kate: such a dork
Kennedy: No
Kate: I'm a dork. Ooh.
Kennedy: No I'm the dork. But it's like that I think to see those especially women, women in friendship and being strong for each other. And I think that's really important. And I have done that in several series, sometimes unwittingly, but in this book very intentionally. And I love the fact that they're all very different. One is a stay at home mom, completely devoted to her children and that's where she feels successful. And she runs it an enterprise. And one of course has the restaurant with her husband, ex-husband now. And they're running their business and one has no desire to have children. She's totally consumed in her career and yet they respect each other, they respect each other's decisions and where they are in life. And I like to see that.
Kate: And they met as adults, which I think was such an interesting point that you made. It was like they made adult friendships, which we've talked a lot about on Forever35 is, I mean, Doree and I became a friends as adults
Doree: we were in our thirties,
Kate: Were not like we met when we were 18. And I think that was just such an interesting distinction that you made with them and I appreciated it.
Kennedy: And I think for her, for Yasmen, especially when she was going through her really hard time, she found herself isolating a lot, which is sometimes what we do. She isolated a lot and a lot of her friends didn't know how to negotiate what she was going through with her. And some of them when they tried, maybe she just didn't know how to let them in. And there was some drift with some of those friendships. And Yasmen, when she's coming out of it, one of the things that her therapist recommends is yoga. She recommends, Hey, try plants, having plants around is great. Try yoga. She's giving her all these kind of the self care things that also help in addition to, for me, an antidepressant <laugh>. But she's like, okay yoga. And she meets these women in yoga and they're just completely in different places. And you're right, they, they're in their late thirties and they love each other and they're there for each other. And it's the dynamic that I really enjoyed creating for these mature women.
Doree: Well Kennedy, we do always like to end our conversations with guests by asking them about their skin care routine. Now your camera is not working so we cannot see <laugh> your face,
Kennedy: sorry.
Doree: But we are nonetheless curious what you are using these days.
Kennedy: I have gotten a lot more intentional about skincare. I grew up, and this again tells my age, I grew up using Noxzema <laugh> every day. That's about,
Kate: We did two
Doree: <affirmative>
Kate: You're in, I think. Yeah, I you're in the right age group over here. We're in our mid forties
Kennedy: <laugh>. Yeah. So I grew up using Noxzema and I wasn't real fancy in skincare, but as I get older, I have become I, And you know what, this is gonna sound crazy cuz we were just talking about BookTok. Do you know what has really gotten me more into skincare is TikTok, because the girlies have their whole get ready with me and they have their nighttime routines and they just set their little camera up and they go through all of the products that they're using. And I'm like, oh, so maybe I should use something other than just this, whatever I'm using on my face. And so I've gotten this what I do have a skincare system by this company called Bolden, and they specifically work with melanated skin. And so that's been really good for me. So that's like my cleanser, my toner, and then my moisturizer is all Bolden, but what I use at night and I like, I'm so, I'm just name dropping I guess. But Tia Williams is a good friend of mine and of course Tia Williams is also a beauty editor. And so we were doing an Instagram Live once and I was like, Your skin is fantastic. And she goes, Oh, Estee Lauder nighttime, like the serum. And I'm telling you, I ordered it that night and I've been using it ever since. And my skin is like glass <laugh>. I mean it's like
Kate: Wow.
Kennedy: I mean, ok, it's so smooth and sleek. After I use it, it's like wow. And I can see the difference. I need to use more for my eyes. I've just started using Shiseido, Shiseido for the Eyes, the Shiseido eye cream, just started using that. And that's pretty much it. I'm, I'm a girl of simplicity, so I use my Bolden system and then I use my eye serum, the Shiseido, and then I use the Estee Lauder nighttime serum and thats it for me,
Doree: I love that.
Kate: I love it.
Doree: Also speaking of the the second chance
Kennedy: I should probably be pealing something <laugh>.
Kate: No,
Doree: I mean think if anything, I tend to over peal and over exfoliate. So I would say just tread lightly there. But I was just thinking about how Tia's book is a second Chance's book.
Kennedy: So yes. Oh, Seven Days in June for me, Seven Days in June is one of my favorite books that I've read in the last few years.
Doree: Yeah, It's so good.
Kate: It's so good.
Kennedy: It's such to me the book is, and Tia is just iconic. I love that story. And the one thing that I love is how it really translates across genres. There are a lot of people who are not typically romance readers who you see posting about Seven Days in June and it's like sneaking vegetables in with their dessert <laugh>. It's like, ew, I can't stand romance. Oh my gosh. But I love Seven Days in June. So I love that. For me, I think Tia for me is like, and it's not an exact apple to apple, but she's the Terry McMillan of our generation in a lot of ways. When you look at the way Terry McMillan wrote books that were so where black women were centered, but they were so those experiences were so transferable. Everybody was consuming that, loving that. And it wasn't even about sometimes the love story that was there. It was just kind of swept across genres a lot I think. And I think that Tia's work does that. I think Tia does that. She's in a lot of different spaces and I love seeing that.
Kate: Yeah, she's amazing.
Doree: Well Kennedy, I feel like we could talk to you for a much longer period of time. <laugh> respect your time and let you go. Thank you so much for this amazing conversation. Thank you. Where can our listeners find you if they're interested in learning more about you and reading your books?
Kennedy: Yeah, I'm all over social media. I'm on TikTok Kennedy Ryan I am on Instagram, obviously Twitter, Facebook, if you just search Kennedy Ryan. My website is KennedyRyanwrites and all of those are gonna be plastered with Before I Let Go right now. So it'll be unavoidable that I'm releasing a book if you go to of those platforms. But I'm all over TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, website, all of it. But really any of those will have a link tree. I have a link tree, yes. And when you click on that, it takes you to everything you could ever even want to know and some things you probably don't care about. <laugh>.
Kate: Well thank you so much. I'm so excited for people to read Before I Let Go. It's just gonna suck you in and just tap dance on your heart and crush it. Rebuild it.
Kennedy: I love that.
Kate: Oh baby. Yeah, I've been on the ride this past week. It's been a good one. It's been a good one, but my heart hurts.
Kennedy: Oh but at the end. At the end,
Kate: Yeah.
Kennedy: Right.
Kate: We're good. Yeah, I'm healed. Yes. Yes.
Kennedy: What's so funny is every week I get a message from someone who says, I am now in therapy. I read Before I Let Go and I start, Oh
Kate: Thats so powerful.
Kennedy: So powerful. Every week someone messages me and says, I called my insurance company today to figure out how to get into therapy. Or I've been avoiding my therapist and after I read, Before I Let Go, I'm getting back into therapy. And for me that is such a metric impact for me is the first metric of success. And so for me to have that up close personal experience with impact and how that aspect of mental health is impacting some readers, it's really powerful for me. It's really meaningful it's very satisfying. Since I didn't set out for this book to be so personal with me and my mental health journey, but along the way it became very personal. And so that's real satisfying. That's real gratifying. That's real meaningful for me.
Kate: Ugh, that's amazing. I love it so much. Well Kennedy, thank you again so much for coming on the pod. We're so glad to have you.
Kennedy: I loved being here Anytime. You guys are amazing. Thank you for having me.
Kate: Well that was a treat Doree.
Doree: Seriously a treat.
Kate: And if you are looking for a book to just tap dance on your heart and tug at all the heartstrings and just make you cry and make you feel happy Before I Let Go is gonna do that. You know what, I had this weird experience reading this book and I meant to say this to her where I hadn't felt this way in a long time where I felt like I was in the book that feeling where a book is so it feels so
Doree: ooo Yeah,
Kate: I was trying to pinpoint what it was, but I had this moment where I was like, this feels real. I feel like I'm actually living in this world. And I don't always get that as a reader, especially cuz I tend to read very quickly. Totally. And so that was a really just a powerful moment while reading this book. So recommend.
Doree: That's really cool.
Kate: Yeah, it felt good. Now DorDor, Well, sorry
Doree: Yes, KatKat <laugh>,
Kate: I, I'm excited to talk about your intention from last week because I have been watching you execute it.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: You've been like full steam ahead
Doree: Kate, if you recall this was a two week intention because I first intended it two weeks ago. <affirmative> didn't do anything about it the first week. And then was like, I'm going, I'm, I'm redoubling my efforts here and decided to re-up my intention for another week. And it was to organize stuff to sell. And I did, I sold a bunch of stuff. So that felt really good. I, as I was going through clothes to sell, I really thought about each thing and I was like, do I feel good when I wear this? And if the answer was no, I was like, this has to go
Kate: And how
Doree: This has to go.
Kate: You were ruthless if you will, cuz you said to me, I was trying to be ruthless.
Doree: I am have, I'm being pretty ruthless I have to say. I don't know if it's my anxiety about the looming global recession or just general anxiety, but I'm getting very worried about money and so I'm trying to really cut back and not buy stuff and sell stuff that I have. And also my intention for this week is related to that, which is meal prepping. And I did this last week for my lunches and it worked out really well and I'm gonna do it this coming week too. I did basically burrito bowls. I made a big,
Kate: that was good
Doree: they were really good. I made a big thing of rice, big thing of black beans thing of chicken. And then I also had different toppings like avocado, sour cream, cheese, lettuce, salt. I made a salsa You
Kate: You, wait, I'm sorry, back up. You made a salsa, you made it. You didn't do a store bought?
Doree: I just whipped up a little Pico de Gallo. It's literally the easiest thing
Kate: But it involves a lot of chopping. that's impressive. No, own it. Own it. It's impressive.
Doree: Well thanks. Yeah, so that was really great. I just, I felt like I'd been spending too much money on takeout lunches and lunch always sort of snuck up on me and I was never prepared and there was never anything in the fridge. And so I was like, I gotta get ahead of this. So I think next week I'm gonna do, I found this recipe for a Korean chicken bowl kind of thing. I like a bowl. They're also easy to meal prep. So I think that's what I'm gonna
Kate: Look at you on top of your game,
Doree: Kate, I'm trying you know just
Kate: Just ride this high. I'm impressed. I mean you did send me this picture of your meal lunches and it looked delicious.
Doree: It was pretty good, I'm not gonna lie. It was pretty good. And I calculated the per meal cost was like $4.
Kate: And for you probably spent what? 25 bucks 20 bucks on ingredients. And that's something you can spend every day on a lunch when you're doing takeout minimum.
Doree: Pretty much. Yeah. <affirmative>, I was with Tax and Tip, I was spending $21 every time I ordered lunch. And yeah. That's just not sustainable.
Kate: No. No it's not
Doree: I don't know. It's kind of embarrassing. It's weird because when I worked in an office, I would go out and get a salad or get lunch every day and it was probably around $15, but for some reason that just felt normal. But when I worked from home, getting takeout feels very indulgent.
Kate: <affirmative>, I get it. I know the feeling.
Doree: And also, like I said, I am trying to economize right now. So just making that calculation of, oh, I could spend basically what I spend on one lunch and have lunch for the week.
Kate: It's really true. I mean, food is expensive at the grocery store too, don't get me wrong, because everything is a nightmare. But you really, when you start really looking at the cost difference, even it's that annoying. Don't get coffee and you'll save all this money. And it's like, well, okay <affirmative>. Sometimes it does work. It does add up.
Doree: Yeah. Anyway, Kate, what do you have going on?
Kate: Oh, Okay. So I've been, last week I was focusing on writing down my systems and my workflow. I didn't quite nail this. It was really funny though in my writing critique group Zoom yesterday I was apologizing cuz I had double booked myself cuz I hadn't written a meeting down and they were all, we all are ADHD too. Here are 50 different notebooks and calendars. It's like, oh I feel so, so seen by you. So there was a lot of empathy. So I feel like I'm still figuring that out. But on that note and I realize I've been talking about this a lot, but I just feel like I've discovered a whole new side of myself, kind of understanding this ADD diagnosis and I'm trying to really learn more about my behaviors and through the lens of that diagnosis and just look at them without judgment.
I know I mentioned the Forever 35 ADHD Facebook group a lot, but they've been really helpful. And I posted there the other day because I was having this real hyperfocus fixation on a, a shopping, it manifests for me a lot of shopping and I was feeling a lot of shame about that because it's so one frivolous, and two, I'm spending money that I don't have and three, I should be doing work and instead I'm frantically researching bags. But anyway, I was very validated in sharing there and so I think I'm just trying, committing to continuing this, deepening my understanding of myself.
Doree: That's cool.
Kate: It's a lot. It's feel like you have yourself figured out and then you're like, Oh, I'm never gonna have myself figured out. I'm always going to be learning new layers of myself.
Doree: Well, and we are not static. We're also always changing and evolving.
Kate: Yes, I know. Which is great, but also challenging.
Doree: Yeah, totally.
Kate: Luckily the listeners are along for the ride.
Doree: Buckle up. Alright, everyone. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer. And produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, our network partners, Acast. Thanks for listening. Bye.
Kate: Bye.