Kate unplugs her emotional drain and Doree thinks she might be that person who travels to her hairstylist now. Then, Sona Movsesian (The World's Worst Assistant) joins them to chat about why she feels being Conan O’Brien’s assistant is not just a stepping stone in her career, the importance of balancing ambition with happiness, and how she sees her younger self in the mirror. 

Photo Credit: Plume

Mentioned in this Episode

• Help us reach $20,000 by donating to the Forever35 Giving Circle!

• Forever35 X Balance Bound Merch

Click here to shop all of Forever35's ShopMyShelf recs.

To leave a voicemail or text for a future episode, reach them at 781-591-0390. You can also email the podcast at forever35podcast@gmail.com.

Visit forever35podcast.com for links to everything they mention on the show or shopmyshelf.us/forever35.

Follow the podcast on Twitter (@Forever35Pod) and Instagram (@Forever35Podcast) and join the Forever35 Facebook Group (Password: Serums). 

Sign up for the newsletter! At forever35podcast.com/newsletter.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. 

Transcript

Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer.

Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: No. But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about Serums

Kate: Doree. We do. You can visit our website Forever 35 podcast for links to everything we mention on the show. You can follow us on Twitter forever 35 pod, Instagram at Forever 35 podcast, and you can join the Forever 35 Facebook group where the password is serums. Ooh, I said that fast.

Doree: You did it. Excellent rating. We also have I'll shop my shop.us/forever 35. You can shop Kate's, but Care Shelf

Kate: <laugh>.

Doree: It's

Kate: Really sorry. That still makes me laugh.

Doree: It's really awesome.

Kate: Oh my

Doree: God. And you can sign up for our newsletter at Forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And if you'd like to reach us, you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and our email is forever 35 podcast gmail.com. Okay. Kate?

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: Do you wanna talk about having a good cry?

Kate: I just wanna share that I had one of those yelling cries today. I just had a cry. I have some stuff going on and I into, I was already crying and then I got into my car and then I just did the kind of ugh sound cry when you let it out. A little guttural. It felt really good. I will, I just wanna say thank you to the cry because,

Doree: Oh,

Kate: I needed it. I needed to have a cry. I haven't had one in a

Doree: While.

Kate: I had to work through some of that energy and I mean, crying is self care, man, but it can feel so uncomfortable sometimes when it's happening. Sometimes crying feels good and other times it's like

Doree: <affirmative>, you had a cathartic cry

Kate: And it was very cathartic and it was unnecessary cry. And I think what's so interesting about crying is that sometimes something will bring it on, but the emotion that's coming out it sometimes it can, It's almost like unclogging the drain and you're like, Oh wow, there was a lot of junk in here <affirmative>. So that was a little, I unclogged my drain, my emotional drain, and I got some stuff out and it was, what was inside wasn't pretty, but it needed to kind of get out. So there we are. There are.

Doree: And how do you feel right now?

Kate: Tired.

Doree: <affirmative>.

Kate: I need to take out my contacts. They got a little dried out, but otherwise I feel kind of subdued, relaxed. It was almost like getting, it was getting an emotional massage.

Doree: Oh, okay.

Kate: I don't know. Yeah, I needed, can't remember the last time that I did have a big cry. So that's tells you something too <affirmative>. I don't know when the last time

Doree: <affirmative>,

Kate: It all came spilling out for me. So here I am.

Doree: Here you are,

Kate: Kate. That's all I needed to share. Big cry.

Doree: Well, I'm glad that you shared that.

Kate: Aww, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that mean. In other news, I did try a jelly toner, but I'll have more to share on that in the future.

Doree: I love a jelly toner.

Kate: I know you do. And you were kind of the reason that I was like, Oh, maybe I'll try a jelly toner. So I did.

Doree: Okay. Well I look forward to the report.

Kate: I will report back as I get a little bit further into using it, but right now I'm into the jelly toner.

Doree: Okay. Well, Kate, I have returned for my travels.

Kate: Yeah. How was this? Did you have so much fun?

Doree: You know what I did? I had a really good time. I, I would say by day three I was like, Okay, I'm ready to go home. I had one more day and I'm glad I had that one more day. I saw people who I hadn't seen and that was really nice. But it was also nice to feel like, oh, okay, I got what I needed out of this kind of

Kate: Good. Okay. Wait, we haven't talked about the fact that you went to your old hairdresser. Do you remember we were comparing this to your grandfather trying the duck.

Doree: Okay.

Kate: Pappy

Doree: Poppy.

Kate: So what did you call your grandfather?

Doree: Papa? Pa.

Kate: Papa. Trying the duck.

Doree: Papa. I have to report that the duck is still good.

Kate: Meaning your hairdresser, your New York City hairdresser from 10 years ago. Yes.

Doree: Yes. Now you can't really tell right now because I just showered and my hair is wet. But I sent you a picture after I just had it cut

Kate: You.

Doree: I'm, I think it looked pretty good. It

Kate: Did. It looks great. Did you also darken your hair or is that just the color? It is.

Doree: That is my natural color. I just had jealous balayage for a long time. <affirmative> that really lightened it. But you know what, when we, He was looking at my hair dry before he cut it, just to get a sense. He was like, Oh, your color's great. And I was like, Babe, that's my natural color <laugh> babe. Wow. I mean, I didn't say babe, but I didn't say that. But yeah, I was like, this is it. This is my color. I still have some residual blonde at the very ends, but this is my color. I don't color. He's like, Well, you color your gray, you cover the grays, Right? I was like, No, this is it. I don't have a few select grays, but that's it. I don't color it at all. This is my nu youre hair. And I was like, I spent so much time as a youth dying it Auburn and red and all these colors that didn't really look that good <laugh>. And now I'm like, wait, I actually, my hair, it's a nice rich brown. It's gorgeous. So thank you. So this has been a nice journey of self-acceptance, so thank you for noting that, Kate.

Kate: Oh, that's so sweet. I think that's wonderful.

Doree: Thank you. I'm glad you had a restorative journey. Enjoy. Yeah, I still enjoy coloring, getting my hair colored every so often, But I also really, my natural color, it was really nice to see him. He at least pretended to remember me. I mean, I don't know if he actually did because it had been 10 years since I saw him. 10 years.

Kate: That's wild. My hairdresser from 10 years ago, there's no way that they would remember me. There's just no, it's impossible. I don't believe it.

Doree: I refused to believe it. He gave me an effusive hug and kiss on the cheek when I got it. When got there and was acted very excited to see me <laugh>. It was very sweet. I know. And yeah, I was just like, Look, I, I've never found someone in LA who I've had good haircuts, but I've just never found someone who I feel really cut my hair as well as you. Yeah.

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: And he was like, He's German. He was like, Well, I am European trained <laugh> such a snob. And I was like, Yeah, <laugh>.

Kate: Like, I get it.

Doree: Wow. But I don't have that much hair. And he spent an hour on it. And that was what I remembered that about him. He was so careful and really just thought about it so deep. He really thinks about your hair. And I was like, You, he's an artist. <laugh> a true artist.

Kate: Wow, you guys really reconnected.

Doree: We really reconnected. I was like, I mean, guess I just have to come back to New York two to three times a year to get my haircut. This is my life now.

Kate: Add that expense in. No big deal. Yeah. I mean, I'll there

Doree: Lot people who end do that. Anyway, it was a really great, just a experience. And it was also just funny because as discussed on this podcast, I had no idea what it was gonna be like. And I was like this, as I said, this could go horribly wrong or it could just be a Wawa, just a letdown.

Kate: But it

Doree: Was,

Kate: I'm happy that you had such a good experience and I'm happy also that you just got to go away. See family, see friends, go to the US Open. You felt, you felt Covid safe throughout?

Doree: Yeah, I did. I masked on the plane both ways. I mean, today's Wednesday, I got back Monday night. So I, I mean, I don't have any symptoms today. I think Aron moves so quickly that I would probably know by tomorrow if I had it. And I would probably already be feeling some symptoms now. I think two days out I did get my Bivalent booster. When did I get it? Six days, five days before I left. So not long enough for the full effects to be there, but enough that I think I got some, I mean, I probably got some protection.

Kate: There we go. Get in there by Val Booster. I'm really hoping mine works. Get

Doree: In there. Get in there By Valenti Booster. I mean, get in there. I don't know. I still haven't had Covid, so I just, and I'm like, When is it coming? It's gonna hit me when I least expect it. It's gonna be some dumb dinner or, you know what I mean? Something that I'm just not expecting. And then I'm gonna get Covid. But I have given up dreading it and just, I'm careful. I'm, I'm still of, I still mask on the plane mask in the airport, but I didn't mask at the US Open.

Kate: You're outside.

Doree: I felt fine about it. It's good. What's outside And that, that's is what it is.

Kate: Well she, we take a break and come back with our guest.

Doree: Yes. What a delightful guest we have today.

Kate: We are talking today to Sona Sian. Do you know her from Conan? Yes, you do. Sona has assisted Conan for over 13 years. She has been a regular feature on all things. Team Coco, a fan favorite. There's a legendary trip to Armenia that they took. Now Sona Cohosts Conan's podcast. Kona O'Brien needs a friend, which is a regular podcast in my house. She stars in the IG TV show, hosted on Team Coco every Friday. Sona fixes your life. Hopefully she's gonna help fix our lives. And she lives here in Los Angeles with her husband and her twin sons. And also of course, from all this experience as Kono O'Brien's assistant, She then took that expertise and wrote a book, which was a New York Times bestseller. The summer The World's Worst Assistant. Funny, hilarious, insightful. Cool. We just had the best time talking to Sona. I mean, just buckle up. Yeah. I mean, always buckle up. Always buckle up. <affirmative>. Buckle up even more today. <affirmative>.

Sona Movsesian: We're gonna take a short break and we will be back with Sona.

Kate: Sona, thank you so much for coming on the show. We're both very excited to have you on as someone who has followed your journey on television and also via my podcast listening app. This feels very like I'm talking to someone who I have a parasocial relationship with. Oh my gosh,

Sona Movsesian: It is amazing how many people know so much about you when you're on a podcast, right? Yes. And we

Kate: Have that with people with us. But I just realized in talking to you, I was like, Oh, I have that with you. Uhoh. Buckle up. Yeah,

Sona Movsesian: I'm into it. I like it. I think it's what, earlier I was telling you guys about my boys and then you knew that I had twins and I'm like, Oh, I talk about that all the time. So yeah, it's weird.

Kate: Yeah, it is weird. It's in, It's interesting. I mean, look, actually I wanna get to this later cuz I am curious how it's impacted your life having so many people follow along. But before we get to that and get to your book and everything we like to start every episode and every interview with a guest asking about a self care practice that they have in their own life, which can literally be anything. But is there something you do that you consider self care?

Sona Movsesian: I do a lot of self care. I try to none of it is taking a bath or it's very small things that I do throughout the day. Breathing is a big, big part of my life. There's moments where I just take a moment and just take a few deep breaths. I think if I don't, and I mean very sort, controlled and deep breathing. And I do that for maybe just 20 seconds, but it makes a huge difference that I stretch a lot. I'm not flexible <affirmative>. So it's shocking that I'm not as more flexible considering how much throughout the day I'm just grabbing things and pulling myself on them or grabbing a leg and just stretching. And then my mom was a yoga instructor. I'm sorry, I'm going off on a tangent, but my mom in her forties just was like, I'm gonna become a yoga instructor cuz I love yoga. And I went to a couple of her classes and I'm like, I can't believe I came out of this bitch. I cannot believe the things that she could do with her body. And I have an age advantage and I, it's incredible what she can do. So yes, stretching. And at night I take edibles to help me sleep. That's something I do. And chocolate every day. Every single day. I have to have some kind of chocolate.

Kate: Now what's your

Sona Movsesian: Favorite kind of chocolate? Yeah. Oh, if it's chocolate, it's my favorite. <laugh>. They don't have a favorite. I know people, There's people who will be like, I like this type of chocolate. This type of chocolate is so good. And I'm like, if it even looks like chocolate, when a chocolate goes so bad, it lightens and colored. It becomes very flaky. I'll even eat that. Yes. And I'll be like, Hell yeah.

Kate: Yeah. It gets a covering of dust. Yes. When you open it, it's got that white flaky thing. And I still am like, Well <laugh>,

Sona Movsesian: This is what it is. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I'll take any kind.

Kate: That's really funny. I like it to save a Reese's egg and just let it linger all year and then find it. So <affirmative>.

Sona Movsesian: Oh, once I'm a big Cadbury egg fan and I put one in my purse and it just melted over everything and my phone is still sticky and it's been two years. Oh my God. And it's still sticky. There's still buttons that stick.

Kate: But you're a mom of two young children, so I feel like everything is gonna be sticky at this point. Yeah, it's okay to lean into that sticky,

Sona Movsesian: Wet. Oh, I mean, let's be honest, right? <laugh> just like, so why is wet <laugh>? It's all unpleasant. It's just unpleasant. And then we just installed a gate by our stairs and I forgot it was there. This just happened last night. And I crashed into it full speed and I fell on the ground and nobody else was around. So I just laid there and I was like, Oh, this is the most incredible pain I've been in recently. Cuz I did give birth to these babies. So that was a lot of pain. But then I was just laying there and I was like, Oh, and I, I think I bruised a rib and I fell and I was bleeding and I got a right bandaid. I know. Well, I don't even know. I brought that up. I guess I want you guys to know my struggle <laugh>.

Kate: Cause life is hard.

Sona Movsesian: But if that's as hard as it gets, then I'm fine.

Kate: I know. But it's just those moments where you're just like, Did I just fucking, I just did that and this is the day I'm having.

Sona Movsesian: Yeah. I just fell. I fell. I'm on the floor and I'm writing in pain. I just remember just being there. I was like, Ah,

Doree: Ah.

Sona Movsesian: Anyway, I'm fine. It's fine. Everything will heal. It's just, I don't know how my ego's gonna handle it.

Kate: Well, I mean something that is good for your ego, Work with me on this segue, is the fact that you're a New York Times bestseller. Oh my God. Which is very exciting. Congratulations.

Sona Movsesian: Thank you.

Kate: Both been reading your book in preparation for this interview. And one thing that I felt like the timing was really fascinating is that it came out with all these articles about quiet quitting of jobs, which is basically people slack. It's just another word for slacking off that the New York Times started calling it quiet, quitting.

Sona Movsesian: But

Kate: It seems to correlate really well with, I think a lot of your philosophy that you kind of write about in your book. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on this idea of there's a whole new movement of people who are just quietly checking out at work.

Sona Movsesian: That

Kate: Doesn't seem to be anything new, in my opinion. As a person who has worked in corporate jobs.

Sona Movsesian: Yeah. I think Oh, I didn't plan it. I was thrilled. Trust me, I was thrilled. Every time I see new article, I'm like, Hello, <laugh>, spin this to sell some books. But I think that first of all, I mean if I understand the term, quiet quitting, isn't it? People just doing the bare minimum at their jobs and then not going above and beyond. That's what it is. Yeah.

Doree: I don't think, But I don't think it's exactly slacking off per se. It's just like it's doing your job. It's just, yes, you're not slacking, you're just kind of doing your job, but you're not transferring emails on the weekends. You're not like, Yeah, you're just not going above and beyond. You're just doing literally your job description,

Kate: What you are paid to do. Not exactly.

Sona Movsesian: Yeah. I love how also, I mean, I can't tell if this is a negative thing. If people are looking at this generation of kids who are doing this and being like, Look at these kids just doing their jobs <laugh>. And I don't know if they're disgusted by it or if they're impressed by it because I think that that is normal. I mean, think setting boundaries is good for your mental health. I think more and more people are talking about their mental health and how work affects it. And I think that's good. And I think I got lucky. I got a television job where I worked for a very cool person who was really good with boundaries, and then I wrote a book about it, but I thought it was gonna be this kind of novel idea. Look at this, you don't have to be treated like a piece of shit at work.

Can you imagine? But then there is this young group of people, this generation that's coming up that's like, Oh, we never wanted to be treated pieces of shit. And I'm like you. I thought that was just how things were, that that's just what you do is that you get jobs in these really fascinating industries, entertainment and finance. And I have no idea. There's so many industries that treat people like garbage, I and tech. And I thought, Oh, if you wanna work in those really fabulous industries, you have to be just be okay with being treated like shit. And so what comes along and is like No, you don't <laugh>. And I'm like, That's amazing.

Doree: Well, something that I thought was really interesting in your book was how you describe Conan as a boss. And it kind of seems like you're arguing that he was never treated like shit. He was always kind of a golden child in Hollywood. And it's almost like he was self confident enough and secure enough that he didn't have to treat his assistant shit. He wasn't trying to prove anything. And he also didn't have this thing that I think a lot of my bosses might have had, which is like, well, I was treated like shit, so I'm gonna treat other people like shit. It's just a rite of passage. And I think that's also the thing that, from what you were saying, that Gen Z is kind of trying to challenge this idea that just because you are bullied doesn't mean you need to bully other people. But I guess this is all leading to my question, which is if you are in a position where you are looking for a job as an assistant, is there any way to tell if your potential boss is going to be a Conan or a Monster?

Sona Movsesian: Oh, I think it's very obvious. I do. I really think, and I interviewed for a lot of jobs before I eventually got to Conan. I mean, was working since I was 16, I think about 16 years old. So I've been working consistently since then. And so I've had a wide variety of managers. And one of the things I've noticed, especially when I was starting off working in television, I was thinking I was gonna get a job working in an agency and I, I interviewed with a few agents and a couple of them were like, If I call you at 11:00 PM will you be available? And that was a question to ask. And back then I was so hungry and so green, I was like, Yes, I will. And now if someone asks me that question, I'm like, Fuck no, I'm not gonna be available at 11.

It's like, whatever you need at 11, you can handle that. I'm off the clock at that point, <affirmative>. So I think that there's always ways to tell. They can ask you specific questions that kind of give you an idea. But I've also just been, I know this is gonna sound very Californian of me, but I'm really all about the vibe. And I think the vibe when you feel like something's off, it's off. I knew early on after I met Conan, I was like, This feels like it's gonna be a good move. And I think you're right. I do a whole section in my book called The Human Cente Theory, which is incredibly scientific and based on so much research and it's all about how bosses should in the mouths of the people that work for them, metaphorically speaking of course and how they get mistreated and then shit in the mouths of the people below them. And I think that I do sincerely believe that shitty bosses are just shitty people. And I think that even if you are mistreated, you could just make the decision not to mistreat other people yourself.

Kate: One thing that I have been thinking about in reading your book is just this, the way we've been kind of conditioned to strive and thrive and think about jobs is stepping stones and this upward mobility of career and how I feel like you offer a different perspective on this. And is that something you've consciously thought of in your life? Yeah. Or is it more just has always been your perspective?

Sona Movsesian: No, I think nobody in college who's working their ass off thinks I'm gonna be a career assistant. I'm gonna be someone who's just gonna assist someone forever. And I think it was never what I saw myself doing. It was never, or for a long time, it was never the end game for me. But I remember doing this job and after a few years people were like, What's next? What are you gonna do next? And I'm like, Oh, I really like this. Can I just stay here forever? Does this have to go anywhere else? And I think that once I realized I just really liked my job and I liked going to work and I was getting well compensated and I was working with people I thought were cool and I was working for someone I thought was cool, then I was like, I don't need to look at this as a step to the next place.

I could just be here and just be like, This is cool. I like this. So that's how I started looking at my job and I stopped looking at it as what's next? What's, I think that a lot of people who start off working in really competitive industries like television, I think they're like, I'm gonna take over TV one day. I'm gonna run TV, Land, <laugh>. I don't even know <affirmative>, I don't even know what the top of the TV universe is anymore. But I think everybody's like, I'm gonna run television, I'm gonna do it. And then I was the same way I got into TV and I was like, Oh, I'm gonna fuck it up. I'm gonna fuck up television. I'm gonna make television my bitch. And then after a while I was like, Oh, I don't, that sounds exhausting. <laugh> <affirmative>. I was like, No thanks. Yes. So I stopped looking at a stepping stone and I started looking at it as, this is good. This doesn't need to go anywhere else. Maybe something will come along and that'll be fun. And things have come along. And I think once you change your approach to it, it could really be very liberating. Well, yeah,

Kate: I mean, you've always been

Sona Movsesian: <laugh>

Kate: Interesting though. You have always been a communic communicative person. I think to go now into being in the podcasting space or being on camera, even though I know you're not an actor or technically a

Sona Movsesian: Performer, No. Yeah, I'm not. But

Kate: Personally as a human, do you feel comfortable in this kind of space of sharing? And we were talking about our parasocial relationships earlier. Yeah, <laugh>

Sona Movsesian: True.

Kate: Yeah. You are putting yourself out there in a way that is somewhat, it's not performing, but it is offering something.

Sona Movsesian: It is. I think it is. That's the thing I have to wrap my head around. And there are things that I say where my parents will come up to me or my husband will come up to me and be like, Why did you talk about my mom? There's a section in the book where I talk about the four worst dates I ever went on, which were coincidentally with the same person. And my mom was absolutely horrified. And she came up to me afterwards, after she read the book, and I thought there were so many things that she was gonna have a problem with. I talk about smoking weed at work, I talk about all the times I used to egg houses when I was younger, <laugh> and how much I just didn't care about schoolwork. And I thought, Oh my God, she's gonna come up to me and just be like, I had no idea you were so outta control.

But it was, Why did you talk about your dates with this person? And I'm like, That's what, you have a problem. That's what you have a problem with. And she hated it so much. She asked if I would take it out of future prints of the book. And she's like, You need to get that out of there that it takes down the whole book. It's terrible. You need to get that section outta there. And so there are things that come along with this whole thing about being on a podcast and talking to people and that I never prepared myself for. And I think it's because I don't have a performing background that I don't know how to be anything else other than what I am. And I think I don't know how to present a different persona that's more public. And so I think because of that you could tell I'm somewhat unpolished in a way because of that.

But I like to think that that's what people respond to. I'm hoping that's what people like about my presence on the podcast is that I'm just kind of being myself but I don't know mean there could be a huge, people could hate me and I wouldn't even know that's how removed I am from how people perceive me. I think I go in, I do it. As long as I'm still on there, I'm thinking I'm doing okay. Cuz I think if I was terrible, they would say, You need to not be on this podcast anymore, <laugh>. So the fact that they tell me, they don't tell me that. I'm like, I think everything's okay. But it, you're right. There is something really strange about this that is public. And I think that the only way I know how to cope with it is to just tell myself that there's 20 people listening. And it's okay if I say something stupid, it could be edited out and no one will care. And then when I walk down the street, it's not like people are like, Oh my God, it's Sonoma obsess, yet no one knows who I am, <laugh>. So it's kind of just really nice.

Doree: Okay. Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, we are

Back. I wanted to go back to what we were just talking about in terms of feeling what I'm fine with where I am in my career and I don't need to be head of the TV studio because I think that these questions of ambition for a lot of people really crystallized during the pandemic because people were forced to work from home and spend more time with their families. And they were suddenly like, Wait, what am I doing? Why was I spending so much time at work? And what is this all for <affirmative>? And I'm just kind of curious to hear your thoughts on how to get out of the ambition at all costs kind of mindset. Because I do think it can be really toxic.

Sona Movsesian: It's so toxic. I think it's very toxic. I think that this is gonna come off terribly. There are a lot of people in this world. There are the conans of this world that will never give 60%. They will always give everything they have to what they do. And those people, I think end up being extraordinary. But most people I think are me where we're just kind of, we're okay. There's things we do that are really well, and there's things that we do that are not as great and we're somewhere in the middle and we need those people. Those people are the bulk of it. And I think that with me, I got to a point where I was like, I am not going to do more than this. It's not like I looked at it in a negative way. I just looked at it as this.

I like this. The whole point of ambition is to get to a point where you're happy, where you get to a point where you sort get to a point where you're, you enjoy yourself and you're happy and you're at sort of the thing that you're doing. Whatever work it is, you're proud of it and you enjoy going to work on Mondays. I feel like I was, the ambition for the ambition is to get to that point where you're proud of the things that you're doing and you're happy with things. So my ambition just kind of shifted. It stopped being work, ambition, It stopped being, I'm gonna take over television. And it started being I wanna enjoy things. I wanna go on a different trip every month and it's an hour away. I just wanna have a trip every month. So I think my ambition just shifted.

And I think that there's a lot of people, I think ambition is very important, but if you find yourself at a point where you're stuck, just ask yourself, Am I happy? Am I, what's the ambition for? And is getting ahead at work really going to accomplish that <affirmative>? Is it really the thing that's going to make me a happy person? <affirmative>? And if you are happy, and if you're looking around in your life and you're feeling very grateful about things, then why do you feel the need to go to further if it's not really what you want? I do think ambition is important, and I do think I'm trying to figure out how to answer this question and then that's why I'm going all over the place. I do think that ambition is important and I think that it's necessary, but I also think that some people, it's a huge personality trait for a lot of people. They consume themselves with their ambition. And I don't think that that's healthy. But I also think that might just be a character trait and it might be a psychological thing. So to answer your question, I was gonna start off with change your thinking and now I'm like, maybe you need therapy <laugh>.

I don't know. Honestly, don't, I think that I am getting to an age where I have friends who had a lot of big dreams and some of them accomplished them and some of them are like, Maybe I need to pivot. Maybe I need to find something else <affirmative>. And there's nothing wrong with that. I did not answer your question. I'm so sorry. I thought you dug in. Yeah, I don't, Yeah, I tried to dig in and then I was talking, and then while I was talking, I changed my mind about what I wanted to say <laugh>. And that's the problem is I don't think before I speak, I'm just, So I think that there are always gonna be ambitious people in this world, but if the ambition is what is making you unhappy, then maybe you need to just rethink that <affirmative>. Well,

Kate: I think it's also when the ambition is tied strictly to a job. And I think I'm reflecting so much after reading your work, because I'm just remember, I'm just kind of reflecting on the pressure I have put myself under or externally have felt to give myself over to a company or a job, which is not something that loves me back. It's, it's an entity that it's sole purpose is to make money. And I'm not speaking about the job I do now. This is more when I worked for, I worked for Viacom and it's like, are you quiet sitting on podcast? I'm quietly quiting the show. I mean, I'm just saying jewelry. If I do the kind of, not the bare minimum, but the bare maximum, you just, that's up

Sona Movsesian: <laugh>. All right. Notice, No,

Kate: But I think it's, It's America, it's capitalism. It's this idea of just like, well, this is the most important thing is you giving yourself over to this job, which ultimately maybe is not the thing that's going to serve you and it's gonna thing that might help you feed your family and provide. But that can be enough. It doesn't need to be all. And unconditioning my brain from that is something I I'm doing. And I think a lot of people have been doing that lately. Like you were saying, Doree kind of in the wake of Covid. Yeah. Why the am I driving an hour to be in this office when I can just do the same shit at my house and save an hour of childcare costs? Yes. What was all this for?

Sona Movsesian: Yeah. Yeah. I think that also things shifted a lot when I had kids. I think that my ambition went from I'm gonna take over to television to I'm gonna continue doing what I do get paid and then spend as much time with my kids as I possibly can. And my ambition is, can I be as present and as available to my kids, both physically and emotionally as I can and still get to work and have that fulfillment from work? And that was a very big thing for me. So that shifted a lot. We did. But it also, it kind of coincided the last day that we had that we filmed a TV show was a week before my boys were born. And it almost was my job changed along with my position in life. It suddenly went from I need to go to the Warner Brothers a lot or to Largo from 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM or however long we shot.

And it went from that to now I'm a podcaster mainly, and which is a strange thing for me to say, and I'm still an assistant, but I can do all of those things from home. And while I'm home, I could prioritize my kids and prioritize spending time with my kids. And so, I don't know, I think that I still wanna go to work. I still wanted to work. It's an important thing for me to wanna work. There are people, mothers who decide to stay at home and that's very important for them. But for me, it's still very important for me to go do a job. And so I think that as long as I have that and then I have that balance, okay. But in terms of work, my whole outlook on that was already shifting and it shifted a lot more after I had kids. It just totally, I think flipped.

Kate: How did your partners as well, have you noticed other changes I guess in your perspective on life since becoming a parent?

Sona Movsesian: Well, it's not just becoming. So for the majority of my time working for Conan, I was a serial dater. I never had long term relationships. So Conan was in a way, the biggest relationship in my life that I had to work on that was important to me. And if we had issues, we had to talk about it. It was in a way, he was of the central figure in my life. And then I met my husband. And then Conan obviously was still a big priority in my life, but my husband in this relationship that I was in was starting to become the more central part of my life in a way. I don't know if that makes sense. So things were shifting, but that was like, I've been working for Conan for six, for 13 years, and this was about six years ago when I met my husband.

So up until that point, Conan was the priority in my life. And then I met my husband and then he became the priority in my life. But I still was able to give myself completely to my job. If we needed to travel, it was fine. I could do that. And then when I had kids, that's when I think everything changed. That's when I stopped being the assistant who could just leave at a moment's notice and go with Conan to whatever, a press shoot or a press conference or an interview that he had or a shoot for work or whatever. I stopped being that person who was just readily available. And now everything is just sort of changed completely. There's another person, there's this guy David, who took over for me when I was on maternity leave and he was doing all that stuff where he would accompany Conan to shoots and interviews and public appearances and stuff.

And then when I was done with maternity leave, I just remember telling Conan and David, I was like, I think David should still kind of do that stuff. <laugh>. I was like, How does he just keep doing, He could keep just doing my job. And so we just found a different, we shifted. My job changed, and it's because I was there for so long and because I had made myself, I'm hoping indispensable that Conan was very open to making that shift with me. So now I feel like this balance works, but if I had to do my job the way I used to do it, I don't think it would work.

Kate: So now we often end our interviews by asking people to share any skincare product favorites that they have.

Sona Movsesian: We've done, Yeah, you guys, I was having a good time skin care, you guys. Here's the thing, during the pandemic, I was like, I'm gonna buy all the expensive shit and I'm gonna do all the expensive shit. And then I have not, It's like sun spots. Cuz I'm really bad at applying sunscreen regularly. And I had some on my forehead years ago and I realized that for me the things that work the best is the shit you buy in the drug store. I am all about the Ceil cleanser, the survey am and the survey a PM lotion and that's it. I think that there's a lot more I could do. I could probably look more fresh. My poorest could probably look better. I get it. But I am I also think I have the opposite of body dysmorphia where I look at my face and I'll be like, I'm exactly the same as I did when I was 20. And I absolutely do not. And I know that I, I don't. But I look at my face and I'm like, No, you're fine. My mind is telling myself, you're okay. You're doing okay. Don't worry that

Kate: That's great you is doing, Which is great, the Lord's

Sona Movsesian: Work. I know. I really am grateful for that. Yeah. Anyway, so I think that I do, I could probably do a lot thing, a lot of things better with my skin. I don't A, have the time and B, care enough and C, my mind is making me think I'm okay. So I'll stick with that. Those

Kate: Honestly though, those seem really healthy things because so much I think is, and I, I've had to really do some self reflection is buying into marketing, buying into beauty standards, all that shit. So truthfully, if you're protecting your skin from the sun and maybe cleaning off some bacteria, that's enough. That's

Sona Movsesian: It. I know it is, right? It's crazy. It's crazy right now how many, I remember Googling during the pandemic being best cleansers on the market and they range anywhere from $200, maybe even more to $9. And I think that I tried so many of them and I was like, Is this making a difference? And I think that's where my mind plays tricks on me, where I'm just kind of like, I can't tell the difference if it's good or if it's bad. So I'm just gonna keep using what I get at the CVS down the street and I'm just gonna keep using that cuz it's fine. And my body can't tell the or my face can't tell the difference. My eyes can't tell the difference. So anyway, that's what I do. And lots of water.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. The greatest gift of all.

Sona Movsesian: Yeah, not enough. I'm not gonna lie. I don't drink enough water <laugh>. Like I have this thing and I'm like, I'm gonna have three of these the day and then I don't <laugh>.

Kate: But you have half of one. That's pretty good.

Sona Movsesian: Yeah, I have half of one and then one of my kids will try to drink out of it. You'd know they're just spitting everything back out and I'm like, Oh, we gotta start all over again. <laugh>, that one's going in the plant. Let's start all over again.

Kate: The kids sucking on, my kids are nine and 11 and they still will take my water bottle and s slobber all over it. Suck it down. And I get very enraged.

Sona Movsesian: Yeah, maybe you have every right

Kate: Mean mom, but

Sona Movsesian: No, no. You have every right to be enraged.

Kate: Thank you. Thank you very much for validating me. Well, so this has been so fun to get to talk to you best. Where can our listeners find you and hear you if they would just like to engage with you more?

Sona Movsesian: Okay. Well you can also start at, what did you call it? A parasocial relationship. I really, Yeah, let's get into Parasocial

Kate: Relationship

Sona Movsesian: With persona. You can listen to me on the podcast. Kona O'Brien needs a friend. It comes out every Monday and Thursday. And then I also wrote a book called The World's Worst Assistant. It's out now in bookstores, wherever you buy your books, if it's independent or it's bigger than independent. <laugh> there. But yeah, that's it. That's really all I got. That's

Kate: Enough.

Sona Movsesian: This was such a delight. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much you guys. This was so fun,

Kate: Doree. It's intention time and I think, I believe I shared with everybody last week that my dog ate my retainer. Yes.

Sona Movsesian: Which is a

Kate: Humbling thing to have to call your dentist's office and say, as a 43 year old woman, one that your dog ate anything, and two, that you have a retainer. It was a real just humbling moment of leaving a message that was like, Hey, I know this is gonna sound ridiculous, but my puppy ate my retainer off my bedside table and can I get a new retainer made? But I did the call, I did it and the retainer's getting reprinted.

Doree: Oh wow. Okay. So check make, I mean think, don't you think also they've probably seen it all at this point. You're not the first patient of theirs to have whose dog ate their retainers.

Kate: You don't. I mean, may hopefully not. I'm sure not Certainly. People lose retainers all the time. And I guess I probably could have just said I lost my retainer. But of course I'm an open book and I gave them too much information about myself. But yeah, I agree. You're right. They did not, When I talked to them on the phone, they did laugh. But all in all of it's fair. It's ridiculous. My stupid dog at my retainer. Anyway, this week, Doree, my intention is to just enjoy myself with my family. We are going on vacation together and I have made a real conscious effort to not be online, not be looking at work, just be focused on my husband and my kids and myself and having fun as a fam. So that is my intention.

Doree: Okay. I love this for you. I'm excited. I

Kate: Hope I check this box. What if I come back and I'm like, Well, attention, intention, not accomplished <laugh>. Oops.

Doree: I don't think there's any way you can't accomplish this.

Kate: Thank

Doree: You. Attention. Thank

Kate: You. I will report back with vacation stories galore when I return home.

Doree: I can't wait. Well, so Kate, my intention last week was to try and keep it moving and don't sweat the small stuff while traveling. And I think I did that.

Kate: Yeah, you did. You seem very chill about all of it, which has been wonderful. Thank it. Doesn't seem like you sweat any small stuff.

Doree: I don't think I really did. For example, I went to see my brother and his family on Sunday. They lived in Connecticut and I left early enough in the morning that it was pretty quick to get up there. There was no traffic. And then coming back in the afternoon, it took me two hours and I was like, first I got when I got in the car and Waze was one hour and 57 minutes and I was like, Oh, okay. Fuck <laugh>. But I was just like you know what this is, it is just gonna put on my little fair playlist and just try to be zen about driving over the cross Bronx Expressway <laugh> like it's

Kate: Fine. And did Sarah McLaughlin and who else? Juliana Hatfield and Annie DeFranco carry you home.

Doree: Yeah, they did. They really did.

Kate: <laugh>. It's really funny you mentioned a Lith fair playlist because quite literally this morning I put on one of my favorites, the Indigo Girl's Live double disc 1200 curfews. So maybe we're just in a mood of mid nineties Lilith Fair Rock.

Doree: I mean, honestly, I call it comfort music.

Kate: Who's your favorite Lilith Fair person? Oh my God. What's her face? What if God was one of us? Joan Osborne.

Doree: Oh yeah, Joan Osborne. That song is on the playlist. Well, I mean, Liz Fair.

Kate: Oh, that's right. You're a big Liz Fair.

Doree: I'm a big Liz. Fair person. Gosh. I mean there's just so many. Sarah Tracy to Amos, Tracy Chapman,

Kate: Tracy Chapman,

Doree: Suzanne Vega Anyone you could think of, Jewel. It's like, it's all these people from the late night, all of the nineties.

Kate: If Natalie Merchant isn't on this playlist, I'm quitting this podcast.

Doree: Of course she's on the playlist. Are you crazy?

Kate: God,

Doree: Natalie and 10,000 Maniacs are both on the playlist.

Kate: Oh my God. Just inject that MTV Unplugged with 10,000 maniacs into my ears forever. One of my favorite albums ever. Oh my God. Well I'm gonna listen to that.

Doree: Yeah. Oh, Fiona Apple, Indigo Girls Cheryl Crow, Paula Cole,

Kate: Ooh, I don't know. Sean

Doree: Colvin. Bonnie Rate. Nico Case. Melissa Etheridge. Sophie b Hawkins. Let's see, Lucious Jackson, Lisa Loeb, and the Chicks,

Kate: The Addition's

Doree: Little already mentioned. Yeah,

Kate: I had no idea the

Doree: Chicks were at Lilith Fair. So yeah, it's a great, great playlist. Really carried me through. And then this week, Kate, you're gonna be gone. So all of our Forever 35 stuff that kind of anchors my week is not there. So I'm gonna try to not whittle away the time. I'm gonna try to be, get some projects done and use my time wisely, I guess.

Kate: So

Doree: That's my intention for this week. Thank

Kate: You. Thank you. So can I throw one more late nineties white lady feminist rocker out for you?

Doree: Yeah. See if

Kate: She's on there. Dar Williams,

Doree: She is not on there.

Kate: Oh man, that brings me back. That name takes me to 1998.

Doree: Whew. I was never really into Dar Williams. I

Kate: Wasn't either, but I had, So one of my best friends was like the diehard Dar Williams fan.

Doree: I

Kate: Was just thinking of that name.

Doree: Erica Badu was at Lili Fair.

Kate: Ooh,

Doree: I need to add some. And so was Missy Elliot. I need to El Furtado. There's a few more people who I need to add to this playlist.

Kate: What is a real shameful moment of my life that I never went to Lilith Fair?

Doree: I didn't either. I never went either. You know why? It was at the time, it was a little I think it was a little like hippie-ish for me.

Kate: See, that doesn't excuse me, because I was literally making clothing out of patchwork. Yeah,

Doree: Lo fair was really in your wheelhouse. I'm surprised you didn't go. It's a

Kate: Little too soft. I'm not a she crow stand. I couldn't see, I couldn't go see Jewel in concert or Cheryl Crow or Paula Cole. I can't.

Doree: Interesting.

Kate: Yeah. I'm really glad we got to the bottom of this on this podcast

Doree: <laugh>. Me too.

Kate: If anyone was at Lilith Fair though, I would love to have a Lilith Fair oral history. So if anyone wants to just call in with your little affair experiences, we can put together a little montage.

Doree: Yeah. I mean there have been some great act like Little Fair Art Histories articles, but I would love to hear from our listeners. Yeah.

Kate: But have they ever been done on the Forever 35 podcast? No,

Doree: This was the 25th anniversary of Lillith Fair this year.

Kate: Wow. That makes me feel old. Wow.

Doree: <affirmative>. I mean, we are old, but

Kate: Yeah, we are. And that's fine.

Doree: Alright, well, Kate, this has been delightful as always, and we should remind everyone that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me Doree Shaafrir and you, Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junoo. Sami Reed is our project manager, our network partners, and we'll talk to you all again real soon. Bye.

Kate: Bye.