Kate consciously uncouples from different forms of news in a way that’s better for her mental health and Doree continues to whittle down the clothes in her closet. Then, Dr. Marisa Franco, author of Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends, joins them to discuss how to manage our own hangups, insecurities, and anxieties while trying to build new friendships, what mutuality and affection look like in a friendship, and the power loneliness holds over us. 

Photo Credit: Dr. Darren Agboh, Ph.D., Photographer and Social Psychologist

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Transcript

Kate: Welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer

Doree: And I am do Chare.

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: No. But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate: You can visit our website Forever 35 podcast. For links to everything we mentioned here, we're on Twitter at Forever 35 Pod Instagram at Forever 35 podcast. Join the Forever 35 Facebook group where the password is serums. You can shop our favorite products@shopmy.us slash forever 35. You sign up for the Forever 35 newsletter at Forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. Should I keep going?

Doree: Oh yeah, Kate, you're doing great.

Kate: Okay. I feel like, remember when we were kids and that man who talked very fast did Hot Wheels commercials? Do you know who I'm talking

Doree: About? No. Do you remember this guy? I don't, but I

Kate: Just take my word

Doree: For it where you're going with this.

Kate: There was a man in the eighties who talked really fast and was a spokesperson for things. And I feel I'm feeling very inspired. I'm gonna continue by saying if you wanna reach us, you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text at 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9 0. Or you can email us at

Doree: Forever

Kate: 35 podcast gmail.com. And we also have an amazing merch collaboration with the folks at Balance Bound. All those products can be found at balance bound.co/shop/forever. 35

Doree: K. Really nailed that.

Kate: It felt good. My lips were going so fast I couldn't stop them.

Doree: You were going, I mean, I feel like maybe you should train to be an auctioneer.

Kate: Okay. I mean, I'm all for second careers, Third careers, Second lives. Third lives. So why not?

Doree: This is what I'm saying. <laugh>,

Kate: Thank you for seeing me in my hidden talent story.

Doree: Oh, of course. It's my pleasure. Kate, how are you doing on this very hot day?

Kate: Honestly, I am. I'm hot. We have the AC turned up into to a warm temperature because we're trying not to max out the electrical grid here in Southern California. So it's not like I'm sitting here in an ice box. We're trying to preserve energy and it's warm, but I'm lucky to be in my home with my water and I'm just trying to stay as cool as I can. Literally stay. Cool. Everybody.

Doree: We used to keep our a few degrees cooler <affirmative>, and I think we froze the condenser. Cause that's a thing that can happen <laugh>.

Kate: Oh goodness. And

Doree: So we have been keeping it a few degrees warmer than I think, especially my husband would prefer <affirmative>. But we also have invested in a bunch of tower fans. And I know people say that fans don't actually cool you down. They just move the air around. But honestly, they cool me down.

Kate: Oh, I'm happy to hear this.

Doree: So I would recommend getting some fans because fans use less electricity than ac. You can turn your AC up a little bit. I mean, make it a little warmer and have some fans going. So that's my hot cool tip. My cool down

Kate: Tip. I appreciate this. I mean, I'm also basically wearing no clothes. My uniform is a shirt, a crop top shirt with a built-in bra and bike shorts. And that's basically all I've worn for the last week. Yeah. Yeah. That's

Doree: It. I'm in a dress

Kate: And are you comfortable?

Doree: I am comfortable.

Kate: Oh, that's all that matters.

Doree: I like just having some flowiness going on

Kate: <affirmative>. What I'm see, I like everything to be stuck to my body and contained. I wanna basically forget that my boobs can move in this hot weather. I just don't, I don't wanna have body parts. That sounds wrong, but you know what I mean? Everything is so hot and sticking together and oh

Doree: Gosh,

Kate: Sweating and it's, it's really hot here and obviously we're concerned about community members who are out in the heat and it's really up layers of this that are up upsetting in addition to just how do you manage your own comfort. I've been checking in on our little free pantry to make sure there's water and I've been leaving water out for any delivery people who come by and I don't know, I mean it's just fricking sucks. Just

Doree: As,

Kate: Not to get too intense here, but the extent to which we're seeing the impact of the climate crisis with folks in Jackson, Mississippi not having running water <affirmative>. It's like Jesus F-ing Christ. So anyway, this kind of gets me actually on a tangent that I was thinking about. Doree, this is kind of weirdly related. I'll just throw this out here as a thought today. There was some news in the Donald Trump stole a bunch of documents, situation

<affirmative> <affirmative>. And the news pissed me off and I was then like, You know what Kate? You have to consciously uncouple from political news like this and you need to consciously couple with how you can help your community because that's actually things you can, that's actually stuff you can impact, which I think you're doing how you're volunteering for a local city council campaign. <affirmative> <affirmative>. I thought of that as, I was like, there's nothing I can do to change a legal national security crisis. Nothing I can do. So my rage doesn't have a purpose and it just serves to get me worked up. Whereas what if I consciously uncoupled from that? But I wasn't taking myself out of understanding what's going on in the world. We have these conversations a lot of, I don't want, the news is stressful and it's like I get that, but we still wanna be citizens of the world and help our community. So I decided to consciously uncouple from news like that.

Doree: I mean, I really like the impulse to simultaneously help on a local level because I think that also goes along with what we're doing with our giving circle and helping and participating and being parts of communities that we can actually make an impact in

Kate: <affirmative>.

Doree: And it's not, I don't think you're ignoring the news or shutting it off because we've talked before, I think about the privilege of being able to just turn off the news <affirmative>, but it sounds like you're navigating the news in a way that makes sense for your mental health.

Kate: So I

Doree: Applaud you

Kate: And I think it's identifying which news does not that it doesn't impact my life, but which news I can actually, that actually will, I dunno what I'm trying to say here. I dunno. Yes. Story. I agree. Thank you for seeing me in this space. As I kind of think about this and co-op a term that Gwyneth Paltro came up with when she got divorced. <laugh> <laugh>. Dare I say, I like how I'm using it a lot. I think it works

Doree: <laugh>. I think it works. I'm gonna think about other things I can consciously uncouple from

Kate: <laugh> our phones consciously and couple from your phone. I mean that's like a constant God. Yeah. Jo Herney plastic waste. That's a big one for me.

Doree: <affirmative>.

Kate: I mean listen, we could consciously uncouple from lots of things.

Doree: It's true.

Kate: But then we can also consciously couple with stuff that is great. It makes us feel good.

Doree: Fuck yeah.

Kate: I consciously couple with some sourdough bread toasted with butter. That's a relationship I'm into. Yeah. Anyway, how was your whittling down of clothes going? You had a whole system and I'm very curious and I want you to know that I actually attempted it. I attempted your hanger trick.

Doree: Oh yeah. How'd it go?

Kate: Yeah. Well I only turned one thing and then I forgot that I was doing it. So I would love to hear how you're doing.

Doree: Well, okay, so full disclosure, I was like, I don't really feel like sitting here and turning around all the hangers in my closet. So what I'm gonna do is anytime I wear something, I'm just gonna put it back in reverse.

Kate: That's what I thought. That's what I did. That's what I thought you were doing already. I didn't realize it was people turning the hangers the opposite way. And then when you put them in the regular way

Doree: Extra work, it's like, well you're kind of just doing the work up front, <affirmative>, <affirmative>, <affirmative>. Then anything that's left at the end of the time period is already facing the correct way in your closet. Whereas the way I'm doing it, I'm gonna have to flip all this stuff around at the end. You know? I mean,

Kate: Either way you have to do annoying work is what I'm hearing.

Doree: Yes. Although I do think the way I do it, I ultimately have to do less work because the stuff that I'm not wearing, I'll just take out of my closet and then the stuff that I'm wearing, I'll flip back. Whereas in the other scenario, I would be flipping everything. See what I'm saying?

Kate: I do. I do.

Doree: So yeah. So it's only been two weeks, right? Okay. When did I say I was gonna do this two weeks ago? Something like that. Does that sound right?

Kate: <laugh>? That sounds good to me. Let's say two weeks.

Doree: My conclusion thus far is I wear the same four things

Kate: <laugh> ho.

Doree: Now granted, as discussed, it has been quite warm here. So I feel like that has been an issue, right? Because there's some things that I'm just not gonna wear. I'm not gonna wear a thick black dress or something. <affirmative> long sleeve dress right now. So that's definitely a factor. And I'll be curious to see what happens when it cools down a little bit. But definitely in terms of what do I wear when it's hot? It's like four things <affirmative>. So just to see that was funny. That is good

Kate: Feedback for you to

Doree: Data.

Kate: You know what else? It's good data.

Doree: So something else funny happened this morning, which is that I have this kind of beach coverup calf tan thing that I almost never, I don't think I've ever actually worn it. I bought it and I brought it on a trip. I didn't wear it and it just hung in my closet. But Henry and I were going to one of his friend's houses this morning to swim in their pool and I was like, Oh, I'll wear that beach cover up. It's perfect. It's like white with hot pink kind of tie dye <laugh> and it's too long. So that's the other thing. I'm like, oh, I need to, there's gonna be stuff that I put on that I'm, that I'm gonna be like, I need to get this tailored. So I feel like that's another category of item.

Kate: Oh my goodness, that stresses me out. Okay,

Doree: <laugh>. And first I was like, this is fine, I can just wear it. And I was like, no, this is literally dragging on the floor.

Kate: No,

Doree: No.

Kate: And you really too

Doree: Long.

Kate: Yeah. You wanna have stuff that's gonna really work, right? We don't want to waste anybody's time here.

Doree: Exactly. Especially our own

Kate: Truth. Truly though.

Doree: Yeah, time is

Kate: Precious

Doree: And I do think that I have historically been quick to discard things that don't fit perfectly when I could get them tailored. That said, I have gotten a couple things tailored in the past that I feel made them worse, <laugh>. So I think I sometimes have to be a little bit careful with that.

Kate: So I have a jumpsuit that I bought two years ago secondhand from somebody that has been sitting in my closet because it doesn't fit. I need to get it tailored, but I've never gone to get it tailored. Will I ever get it tailored? It's been two years. For further context, it's an Elizabeth Suzanne jumpsuit, which is a clothing line that isn't made anymore. So it's kind of unique, but will I ever really do it if it's been sitting there for two years? You say that's something one Kate, you're never gonna go get that time.

Doree: I mean

Kate: That's what I would say to myself

Doree: That yeah, I think you just gotta do it. Now I also do just wanna note that Elizabeth, Suzanne, she has returned

Kate: <laugh>. Oh, I didn't know

Doree: That. She relaunched her line with a much smaller range of items that does not include any jumpsuits, which I think is interesting. But yeah, she's back sort of.

Kate: Okay.

Doree: Just as a point of information.

Kate: Well look, if anyone out there wants a kind of creamy Elizabeth Suzanne jumpsuit and wants to buy it from me, it's definitely for a tall bodied person.

Doree: Okay, good

Kate: To know. I don't know what the Elizabeth Suzanne size is, but I think it fits. I'm like a 10 12 <affirmative> <affirmative>. So if anybody's out there listening who wants to buy this from me and just save me from keeping this in my closet for another two years, you let me know. I will include

Doree: A

Kate: Car, I'll include a copy of my book. How about that for me? Yeah, I'm really, I'm desperate to get rid of this jump really.

Doree: I wanna get rid of this jumpsuit, I just

Kate: Need to do something with it. I'm like, Oh, I should get rid of this and then I'll try it on. I'm like, oh, I just need to tailor it. So at attract it's so great and then I put it back in and then I never take it to get tailored and then I do that over and over and over again,

Doree: So. Got it.

Kate: Yeah, sorry for, This is a very long boring story about my Elizabeth Suzanne Johnson <laugh>.

Doree: But yeah, so like I said, I'm curious to see what happens when the weather changes. And I think that's why it's also a good idea to do this experiment over the course of at least a few months. So can kind of year, even a year so that you can just get that all those seasons, various events, if you did, let's say you didn't do it in a time that included the holidays and then the next year rolls around and you get invited to holiday parties and you're like, Oh, I got rid of all of anything that I could potentially wear to a holiday party <affirmative> because I thought I never wear it. So I'm just trying to be mindful of that.

Kate: I think this is fabulous. I think this has been an on-going thing for you.

Doree: It has been. And I think have, as I discussed, I have kind of refined, especially what I buy <affirmative> based on what I now know are colors that look good on me and various other factors. But that doesn't mean that everything is a hit. And I also do just wanna note that I'm really trying not to donate stuff anymore because I just am so leery of what happens to stuff that you donate. And so I'm really trying, Kate, I think this sort of circles back to what you're saying, the beginning of the show, keeping it in the community, selling it to friends or giving it away. I just gave away four bags of baby stuff to someone in my buy nothing group. I gave away some more baby clothes to a friend. I would so much rather give something to a person then bring it to a store like Goodwill where I don't know if that stuff is just gonna end up in a landfill.

Kate: I know it's really tricky. I actually have a million things sitting out in my front door area for buy nothing. People too, if you're interested in buy nothing groups, you can go to buy Nothing project.org if you're trying to find a buy nothing group in your area, cuz they're very local like hyperlocal. But that has been a lifesaver for me in terms of repurposing things that I may not like. I'm like, what am I gonna do this? I should just throw this out and then I post it in the buy nothing group and someone scoops it up and someone it's going to a place that might actually use it. So yeah, I know that's really,

Doree: I look on the other hand. On the other hand, I know that there are people who rely on places like Goodwill to buy clothes and household goods and all that other stuff. But I do think though that what we are seeing right now is a glut of stuff in those types of stores. So I feel like right now my focus is on not contributing to the glut, not worried that they don't have enough stuff to sell.

Kate: Right. Got it. Well, interesting conversation, Doree, that I'm eager to continue as we evolve.

Doree: Yes, same.

Kate: Well, shall we introduce our guest for today?

Doree: Let's do that Kate.

Kate: Well we have the absolute pleasure of talking to Marissa Franco. Dr. Franco is a professor, psychologist, an author of the forthcoming book, Platonic How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. She's been a featured guest on Good Morning America, the Today Show and NPRs here and now she's one of the leading academic experts in this area out there. And we were very excited to tackle this topic of friendship because I feel like in our four and a half years of doing this podcast, surprisingly friend relationships, platonic relationships has been a topic that has come up way more than I ever expected when we first started doing the show

Doree: <affirmative>.

Kate: So it was great to actually speak to an expert about how to make friends.

Doree: Totally.

Kate: All right, well we'll be right back with Dr. Franco. Dr. Franco, if I may, may I call you that, which is Preferred <laugh>.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: You can call me Marisa <laugh>.

Kate: How does this work with a doctor? I feel like it's so exciting to have that tag in front of one's name. Well, Marissa, Dr. Franco, we're so excited to have you here on Forever 35. We are gonna dig into adult friendship because it's a hot topic on our show and as Doree and I like to say we are not experts, but you are an expert, so can't wait to get your insight. But before we get started, we love to begin every episode with one question for all our guests, which is what is a self care practice that you maintain in your day to day life?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: I would definitely have to say, this may be a little on brand for me, but hanging out with my friends, spending time with them, I think it settles my nervous system.

Kate: How did you navigate that in Covid? Because I st and I know we're still in the pandemic and I think this has come up a lot, at least it has for me of how do I friend, how am I humanly friend with people in real life? It's a little clunky now. Have you noticed that?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yeah, absolutely. I think I definitely felt more awkward and more self-conscious. I thought people were rejecting me and social cues were a little harder. When are we each ending our sentence and not overlapping and verbally, I don't know, launching into each other. And I think it's pretty normal because socialization is a muscle. Just anything else when you're out of practice it'll wither a little bit. And when I asked my followers on Instagram, at least most of them were like, yeah, I feel socially anxious and weird after not socializing with people for two years.

Kate: Yeah, I do. I did this, I was telling, we had a listener write in about social anxiety and I was telling Doree I was in a crowd for the first time and I was like, I don't know how to talk to any to anybody. Are there practices that you put in place? I like that you say that friendship is a muscle or socialization is a muscle. And I know you dig into this in your book, which we'll get to, but for those of us who are tuning in and are like, I don't know how to go back out into the world again and just even have small talk, how do you exercise that muscle?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: First of all, yourself, with yourself and give yourself empathy and don't expect yourself to be socializing at the same rate? I think especially cuz people are like, I'm so tired after social interaction now or at the same degree of quality as you were beforehand, right? Cause I think it's easy to get defeatist and I think the more we feel like we're coming off as weird, the weirder we get <laugh>. So I think is really important. And then just trusting that over time as I interact with people, it's gonna come back. It's a skill that's already there. We just are waking it up again. It's kind of like when you learn a language and you don't speak it for a while, but then you're back in the country and all of a sudden you're like, yeah, you're just going off in that different language and you can just trust that, hey, once I have enough interaction again over time I'm gonna start feeling like myself again.

Kate: Well this leads to kind of a broader question, but I do think the last few years have really, at least for me and I think our audience highlighted how significant friendship is in sustaining joy in our lives. What is the importance do you think, as an expert in the space on maintaining and nurturing these kinds of relationships? What does it give us as individuals?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: It's the best predictor of our mental health that we have. One study looked at 106 factors that influence your level of depression. And having a confidant was the number one influencer in the positive direction against depression. Our sense of our identities too, we figure out who we are by seeing aspects of ourselves represented in others close to us. When we get close to people, we begin to include them in our sense of ourselves. So what they do feels almost like what we do, which is why friendship can really expand our sense of who we are. I think that was a hazard of the pandemic. If you're home, even if you have a spouse, you're just interacting with one person and having one experience of yourself and that can feel really flattening or make you feel, I don't know, it's a kind of weird disease. I don't know how you all would describe it.

Just almost a bit of a dysphoria I would say, from not interacting with people and having a larger community. And the last thing I'll just say is that as social creatures throughout our history, we've just needed an entire community to feel whole. And in the research on loneliness, there's actually three dimensions of loneliness. Only one that can be fulfilled by a traditional spouse. There's intimate loneliness, which is craving deep, intimate connection that you get from a spouse or a best friend or maybe a family member. There's relational loneliness, which is lonely. I'm lonely for someone as close as a friend. And there's collective loneliness, which is I'm lonely for a larger community working towards a common goal. So even if you found your best friend in your spouse, you can still end up very lonely because of two dimensions of loneliness that require you to find connection outside of them.

Doree: Can you talk a little bit about the difference between IL connection and virtual connection?

Kate: Ooh.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yeah. So I would say from the research that L is the cream of the crap when it comes to connection and virtual connection benefits the US the most when we turn it into IL connection, right? There's this theory called displacement theory that social media only makes us lonelier when it displaces our in-person connection. But when we use it to facilitate in-person connection, like sliding in our dms, being like, We haven't talked in a while, just wanted to see how you're doing, let's hang out, then you're actually less lonely. Which is why the relationship between social media and loneliness is really complicated because it depends on how you use it. I will say there are exceptions to what I'm saying. People with social anxiety, for example, report having more quality interactions online because online might not trigger their anxiety in the same way they feel like they could be more comfortable.

People with disabilities certainly rely on IRL communities, people that are lonely or too, But as I don't actually talk about this in the book, but fun fact, loneliness isn't just a feeling, it's a state of mind. When we're lonely, we think people will reject us. We like people less, we have less compassion for humanity, we desire to withdraw cuz we experience this vigilance for rejection when we're lonely. Because if you think about it historically, if you're lonely, you are alone on that. Savannah, you are really in danger. So when we're lonely, our brain is like, Right, is someone gonna reject me? Is someone gonna harm me? And we actually desire to withdraw even while we would desire to connect when we're lonely. So that's why I think online can be a good medium for people that are chronically lonely and it feels too intense to put yourself out there in person, but you can kind of start on online.

Kate: Wow, that's fascinating. I'd love the idea that loneliness is actually a state of mind. I think that's such a, I don't know, I've never heard it, heard it heard put that way and that really clarifies it on a much deeper level for me. I love that slash the fact that so instinctive is also a little terrifying <laugh>.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: It is. It's like, gosh, brain, what's going on? Are you supposed to help me find connection when I'm lonely? Not make it harder <laugh>.

Kate: Yeah. And so I imagine having, especially coming out of the time that we are in of where there has been more loneliness as you're speaking about, of these kind of not every relationship need being filled, et cetera, it's, it's gonna take a while to get that ability back to that it's actually something we have to work toward.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Absolutely. And it can take time and it can take work. I will say that interestingly, some of the interventions against loneliness actually work on focus. Focus on changing your thinking, the thinking patterns that you tend to develop when you're lonely, which is people can't be trusted, everybody's gonna reject me, nobody really likes me. Loneliness, it's particularly damaging when we see it as something that's gonna last forever because we think, Oh I'm lonely because there's something wrong with me fundamentally. So I can't get out of this or I'm lonely because other people can never be trusted. That's when we see loneliness continue over time. Whereas someone who's more optimistic and can think this is a difficult moment, I know I won't be lonely forever. I know I have something to bring to my social relationships, even though it doesn't feel like it right now, according to the research, they're a lot more likely to find connection over time.

Kate: So how did you get into this kind of work? What drew you to study this and to really dig into the science of friendship and relationship in this way?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yeah, that's a great question. I love, love, but I've resented love for a long time because for me, going through breakups and realizing that I thought romantic love was the only love that made me worthy or valuable, especially as a woman and feeling like I have no love in my life if I don't have a romantic partner in my younger twenties were beliefs that really made things a lot worse for me. And I decided to start a wellness group with friends to really recover from this grief where we met up each week to practice wellness, cooking, meditation, yoga. But the most healing thing of all was friendship. Just seeing people I love regularly and I realized why doesn't this love matter? We are so lonely as a society. Why would we throw any form of love in the garbage? Why should we act like platonic love cannot fulfill us platonic love just because people love us platonically that we're not loved. Just all of the gaps in my thinking that made me feel a lot more alienated. I just really began to question and I thought we as a culture need to question these things because they're isolating all of us. It's not just me. And so that I think was one of the biggest triggers for me to write platonic. I wanted to elevate the status of platonic love.

Doree: Can you, for the benefit of our listeners who probably have not yet read your book can you break down its main, its main thesis and the various chapters and steps that you outline to make and maintain friendships?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yes. So I'm a psychologist so it's gonna get deep when you read platonic right? I argue that we have to fundamentally reconcile with who we are if we wanna create better connections. Because basically the thesis is how we've connected, whether we know it or not, has fundamentally sculpted our personalities. Whether we are kind, loving, vulnerable, open initiate with others, cynical distrusting, all of those are aspects of our personalities that are determined by our previous experiences of connection or lack thereof. So to understand who we are as friends, we need to understand our past. But then who we are affects how we connect. It's not random. Those that have had healthy relationships in the past, what I call in the book, according to a theory called attachment theory, they're securely attached and they tend to gravitate towards traits and characteristics that allow them to continue to build connection in the future.

Like initiative, vulnerability, authenticity, affection, generosity, being good at conflict like securely attached people. This comes naturally to them because this was modeled to them and they've internalized the love they received insecurely attached people. However, their past has told them that they can't rely on people, that people will abandon them. So their personality is of in a bit of a way survival strategies for the connection that they assume will be sabotaged from them. So insecurely attach people do things like push people away and isolate themselves or cling very, very closely. They get into fight or flight mode a lot more easily. So they really struggle with working through conflict just a lot think people will reject them so they don't initiate with people, they don't show affection towards people. They're less generous. They're in self-protection mode because of their past, which means that they're not in pro relationship mode.

Because so many things that we do to protect ourselves, our relationships are sacrificed for them. I'm not vulnerable, I'm not gonna initiate, I'm not gonna compliment you. All of this is gonna protect me, but the cost is gonna be my relationship. So if we experience insecure attachment, cause we've had this past around unhealthy relationships, that might be our style of relating to others. Now I just wanted to say, because I think people hear me and sometimes they're like, Oh great, good for people with the healthy parents and the healthy childhood, right? Good for people that weren't bullied in middle school, that your attachment, that your attachment can absolutely change over time. My attachment has gotten more secure over time. Some research finds that most of our attachment styles change over time. And the book, it's basically about telling you, hey, here are all the things you can do to become more securely attached.

Kate: This is, oh boy, I feel like very, it's exhilarating, but now I'm reflecting on my childhood and figuring out how that impacts how I'm a friend <laugh> like, oh shoot. So you do this a great job or I feel like a very clear great job of breaking down different initiatives or me different steps in your book on how to, it's almost twofold, right? You're kind of working on yourself and in turn creating stronger relationships or at least that's how I interpreted it. Would that be correct?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: That's absolutely correct.

Kate: Which is so cool cuz it's like, you know, do self work and then you get this really nice bonus out of it of relationships. But could you give us the nutshell of each because I love how you work through everything and the theme of self compassion really kind of runs throughout. But for example, the first one is how to take initiative. You're really kind of guiding us on how to build these relationships. So this is a hard one for me. Take initiative. How do you suggest people do this? Especially those of us who might be a bit insecure in this area?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yeah, first I understand why you feel insecure. It's scary. These aren't things we learn how to do. A lot of us just rely on this. What I would say is a myth that friendship should happen organically. And when we were kids, we had that. We had what sociologists, Rebecca Adams says is the ingredients for friendship to happen organically, continuous, unplanned interaction, shared vulnerability. But as adults we just don't have that. A lot of us just don't have those settings anymore. We don't have the right infrastructure, but we're using the same template from childhood and that means that we lose out because in fact, thinking that friendship happens based off luck is related to being lonely. And people that see it as happening based on effort, less lonely five years later cuz they're making that effort. Of course, I think one of the biggest barriers is we're also afraid of rejection. Just like what you said, Kate, but according to the research I've read, we're just less likely to be rejected than we think. There's a phenomenon called the liking gap wherein when strangers interact and they report how much do you like the other person, how much do you think they like, we tend to underestimate how liked we are and the more, oh

Yeah,

The more self critical we are, the more pronounced our liking gap is. And so just cuz you think people are gonna reject you doesn't mean that's the truth. And one of the biggest tips I share in the book that helps people become more secure is begin to assume that people like you. Because when you do, according to the research, when researchers sort of manipulated people to think this way, they found that people became warmer, open, more friendly, even though this wasn't true. They told them this wasn't true, but it changed the way they show up in the world in such a way that this became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whereas those of us who really fear rejection high and rejection sensitivity, which is you project that you're being rejected even when you're not. We reject people <laugh> because we get cold, we get withdrawn and then people don't engage with us and we assume it's because people just wanna reject us. Not realizing, oh how I'm showing up because of these fears is actually making my greatest fear and more likely to happen.

Doree: I mean, <laugh>, this is when I say I feel personally attacked, <laugh> <laugh>. But I think sometimes, at least for me personally, and I'm curious what you think about this, but I will sometimes say, well I know this person doesn't like me so well, that's why I'm just, and I'm not gonna be friends with them. They don't like me. And I do think that that is a defense mechanism in a way because it means I don't have to make myself vulnerable to them because I've already just kind of put it on them that they don't like me. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that and just about defense mechanisms and fear of rejection generally,

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Defense mechanisms are real and then I think they crush our sense of authenticity. I think authenticity is who we are without our defense mechanisms, who we are when we feel most safe. And when we're authentic. I argue that we're naturally good at connecting with people when we're not trying to protect ourselves in these ways. What naturally comes out is compassion and love and generosity and affection. So that's really great. I would say that you're exactly right in that there's this theory called the theory of invert attraction that basically says what makes someone likable is that they like people and if we think people don't like us, we're not gonna like them. And it's again gonna become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. Cuz if you don't think someone likes you, you're gonna back away from them, act withdrawn. They might actually not like you. Right? So I think it, yeah. So in general, I mean my suggestion based off of all the research that I've read is to hold your insecurities with humility. Don't necessarily assume that your fears are true. You can acknowledge that, oh my gosh, I think they don't like me. But you can also say, I'm not actually sure about this and maybe I want to still engage in an openhearted way to disrupt that self-fulfilling prophecy that's gonna happen if you let your insecurities be the truth.

Doree: Well and it's like we are our own least reliable narrators.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: <laugh>. Yep. Yeah, Doree. Cause honestly, our brains are focus on self-protection more than connection. And our brains learn from negative experiences much more from positive ones. So I've had a friend who is in middle school, my friends called me and told me they never really liked me, so I never initiated a friendship again. And I'm just like, there are so many, I've literally liked you this whole time <laugh>. And there's so many people who have liked you since then but you haven't registered it because once you had this intense negative experience, you weren't open to learning anything else like that was it. At the end of the day, and even if people are loving you, if you have this negative story, you aren't actually registering all the ways that people are expressing love, appreciation, kindness towards you.

Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay, we're back.

Kate: I love in your chapter about authenticity. I love how you talk about authenticity in terms of ending friendships or changing the status of a friendship. And I would love to hear you talk about that a lot because we do get people asking, How do I know if this friendship or I don't like being friends with these people, but I'm stuck in this friendship. Or how do I end a friendship or as I have put it recently consciously uncouple from a friend <laugh>. And how does doing so connect with honoring your authentic self? Cause I had never connected those two before and I thought that was a really interesting point that you make.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: So our authenticity to me, it's who we are when we feel really safe and when we're not hijacked by defense mechanisms. So it gives us, I think, a really clear sense of our wants and needs <laugh>, like whether you enjoy this person or not versus whether you feel like this person might not like me so I have to reject them first. That's, I don't wanna say it's a less res, reliable indicator of whether you actually connect with someone, but it's a less true <laugh> true ending cuz it doesn't actually reflect how you think and feel. It reflects your desire to protect yourself. And so that's why I think thinking about friendships in an authentic way, is this coming from a defense mechanism? Do I think they were rejecting me? Is that why I wanna end this friendship? If I felt like they did love me, would I still wanna end this friendship?

I think asking yourself those questions can be really helpful. One thing that I talk about in regards to conflict and anger and friendship, there's a difference. I talk about anger as a good quality for friendship and that's because I talk about how there's two types of anger and one is called anger of hope and that's what secure people tend to feel. They get angry and they're like, Oh this is a signal that I have to share, that there's a problem that we need to fix together. <laugh> anger of despair, What insecure people tend to feel insecurely attached is I'm angry so I wanna destroy this. I wanna incite revenge. Again, it's a lot more self-protective rather than pro relationship. And if we can, I talk about my own process of being so afraid of talking through issues with friends that I almost like didn't talk to my best friend who is vital to me. What I would've lose lost out on was so vast. And then I read the study that, oh, having open empathic conflict is linked to deeper intimacy. And I'm like, maybe I need to start questioning my ways. Maybe I'm actually harming the friendship by not bringing up conflict cause I'm then withdrawing, right? It's either I bring it up or I withdraw, not like I bring it up and then I get over it and we're fine. That's what I've kind of realized the options were.

So I bring it up to her and I realize what the psychoanalyst, Virginia Golden tells us that could happen in our relationships when we bring things up that we can experience either comfortable safety, which means I feel safe in this relationship because we pretend nothing's ever wrong versus dynamic safety, which is we rupture, we repair, we rupture, and we repair. And that is what golden argues, the deepest form of intimacy with someone.

Kate: <laugh>. I just wanna note to our listeners, we got a lot of questions about friendship. This is the book, you wanna read this really

Doree: Because yes, this is low one,

Kate: You do such a great job of fusing it with scientific study but also just giving very straightforward advice and direction on how to go about initiating and sustaining these relationships. And I, it's

Doree: Just very, very actionable. I Yes,

Kate: I really appreciate that.

Doree: I know I don't, books that are go figure it out for yourself. I like books that are like, here's what to do because I need that. And one of the questions that we do get a lot is from people who either they don't have kids and all their friends have kids or they have kids and their friends don't have kids and how to maintain friendships. And these are mostly people in their thirties and forties when kind of life paths start to diverge.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yeah. Oh gosh, yes. This is my life right now <laugh>. So I understand all the people asking these questions. And one of the ways that I think about it, first of all, I think some people's model of friendship is that this is a relationship that I have in the purgatory until I meet my romantic partner and find my family. And that might be some of your friends <laugh> and it might feel really lousy for you when that starts to happen. And you can tell you're not a priority as much anymore or maybe even at all, right? And I think you should certainly bring it up and talk to friends about it in a way that open empathic anger of hope, real energy. But if you come to find that this is just friend's values and I think we should not try to force our friends to have different values and priorities.

Forcing people to try to value us is a recipe for toxic relationships because you're literally willing yourself to engage in a relationship where you're not getting what you are looking for. And so not saying that this is everyone with kids, there are people with kids that will prioritize their friendship with you. And again, I think too, friendship endings binary, you can have that we don't connect in the same way. So that means that I can dial down this friendship instead of ending this friendship altogether. So that's another option that can make things really hard. I think there's also just a set of assumptions that starts to happen when friends have kids that can too become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Friends without kids could be like they're so busy with their kids, they don't wanna hear from me <affirmative>. And then you're not engaging in the relationship and it kind of starts to end not realizing how the biggest burden you place on this relationship is not you reaching out, it's actually your silence.

People still want friends when they have kids and in fact that's one of the biggest predictors of your, how well you adapt to parenthood is just like you having that larger social support community. So that is really, really important. I think too, when we get close, what tends to happen is we include people in our sense of ourselves. What happens to you almost feels like it happens to me. And I think it can be important to lean into that a little bit that I'm happy that these are the experiences that you're having because you're my friend and I'm close to you and I wanna be interested in these experiences even though we have, we're going off in different life trajectories, let's maintain interesting curiosity about each other's lives rather than just assuming that diverging paths mean a inevitable disconnection.

Kate: I really love that you wrote a whole chapter on offering generosity. I had never heard this or read this kind of verbalized before. This idea of concrete ways in which we can be generous. Not just like I'm gonna teach you a skill, which is something you do suggest, but also the ways in which we communicate generosity in our communication and communicating our boundaries for people who might be coming to this for the first time. I was, Could you just give some basic tips on what you mean by that and why offering generosity within the context of a friendship is so important?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So this is a misconception I used to have about friendship, which is that people wanna be friends with someone who's like funny, smart, entertaining. But in fact what I learned from the research is that the number one thing people report wanna get a friend is feeling valued as a person. And so anything you can do to make your friend feel valued is gonna create closeness and intimacy and generosity. Doing things for your friend is just one way to do that. But I talk about the sort of tension of generosity in the book, which is that sometimes we confuse generosity with being a martyr and we engage in what's called unmitigated giving, which means we give and give and give without regard for ourselves. And actually research finds that that actually makes our mental health worse, even though generosity generally improves our mental health and it doesn't improve our relationships as much reason being that when you give to someone out of a sense of obligation, they can kinda pick up on it and it feels really crummy to feel like this person's doing it just because they feel like they have to and they're dragging their feet.

And so I sort of engage with a lot of complexities around generosity cuz I also don't think the solution is, well I'm never gonna help you unless I feel like it and I'm never gonna be inconvenience for a friend. Cuz to me, friendship isn't just someone whose company you enjoy, it's a commitment and a responsibility to just any relationship. And so what I end up on is this concept I came across called mutuality, which is mutuality means I'm thinking about your needs and mine and trying to figure out a solution that works best. So I'm gonna set a boundary when you're calling me at 10:00 PM to discuss, I don't know the latest episode of Game of Thrones and I'm really tired, but I'm not gonna set a boundary when you call me at 10:00 PM to tell me that you're decided to go through this divorce.

It's a little bit more fluid because I think if we're too rigid with our boundaries, we will betray one of the golden rules of friendship. One of the things that people look for the most in their friends, which is you're gonna support me in times of need and when I really need someone, you're gonna show up for me. And I think when we can be too rigid with our boundaries, we convey to our friend, when you really need someone, I won't be there cuz I need to have this boundary cuz it's really, really important to me. And so it's just about taking a step back and seeing the bigger picture of the friendship and valuing when your friend sets a boundary, understanding that that's part of what they need to recharge, to give more in the long run. Valuing when you set a boundary, cuz again it meets you can give more in the long run. And just considering both parties.

Kate: So good. So good.

Doree: It's very helpful. Kate, I wanna ask Dr. Franco about the question that we got on the pod on a podcast that we recorded today. Even though that's friends not gonna air for another right week about work, friends I'm curious what your take is on work friends and how they can be valuable how we can make work friends, and also what some of the pitfalls of work friends can be.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Good question. I was not always a believer in the work friend. I felt like I need to do work <laugh>, I don't have time for connection. And this is when I was a professor, my last job as a professor and I felt like it felt vulnerable to make a work friend that if this person knows more information about me, could they use it against me? But ooh, I was wrong. As I read the research and my personal experience showed me that people with work friends were satisfied at their jobs, more fulfilled perform better, are more innovative form, more cohesive teams just get more opportunities. For me not making work friends means that I was working harder, not smarter. Because when people made friends with people, they offered them grant opportunities, they offered them to be on research papers. Those were the things that moved them forward in their jobs.

They came through these friends and connections they had. So it wasn't that we friends were getting in the way of my work, but friends would've actually facilitated my work is what I didn't know. And so I think we have in the workplace what I call, I speak on finding belonging at work and I call this the myth of the employee. The idea that we get to work and we're no longer human and we don't have these fundamental needs anymore. We don't need to belong. We can just clock away at a computer and we're human everywhere. Your relatedness and sense of belonging is again one of the biggest predictors of how meaningful you find your work and whether you're gonna be retained in that job. So I think work friends are key. Now I'm very intentional about cultivating them. How do you do that one study found more time we spend together at work, the less close we feel.

So the liability of the work friend is that I'm only showing you one dimension of myself and you never actually know who I am as a person. And then it's hard to actually feel like friends. So I think you need to stop talking about work. If you wanna make a work friend, stop talking about work. Like Google had people share highs and lows at the beginning of their virtual teams for example. I think icebreakers as cheesy as they are, can be good in that way. Scheduling meetings with people to be like, I don't wanna talk with you about work, I just wanna see how you're doing and see and get to know you a little bit more. Right. That is so key. So that, going back to something we said earlier, work can be a place then where we have continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability that where we have that infrastructure for friendship that we used to have as kids.

Kate: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad we asked you this cuz Doree and I both responded and we were like, you don't really need friends at work, just have professional relationships. You're fine. Really, really

Doree: Glad. That's too, that was our initial reaction and then we offered some suggestions. But I do really appreciate what you're saying about how work friends can be strategic whether or not you're kind of going into it with that ultimately, like you said, they can be strategic and I see how that also can affect people who might be from marginalized communities. If everyone in your office is white and male and you are a gay woman of color and it's like it might be harder to make those alliances in your workplace. So I think it gets tricky when we start to think about it in that sense as well.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Yeah, it totally does. And I've been there <laugh>, I've been the only black professor <affirmative> and experiencing discrimination. And what discrimination does to you is that it makes you constantly alert that you might experience more discrimination <affirmative>. So it gets really, really hard to connect with people when you are always on high alert that gonna say something to hurt you, it just makes you wanna withdraw. Similar to how loneliness works, right? Yeah. I think discrimination is a form of loneliness. So it's really, really hard. I think what I've realized being a woman of color in the workplace is that I don't know if people would use the term trauma, but what I know is that trauma in any form, whether that's discrimination, if you consider it a form of trauma generalizes. So it's like anyone crudely represents these characteristics that's similar to the person that hurt me now don't, not just the perpetrator, but everyone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So for me, experiencing all this discrimination and feeling fearful around white people or is any white person gonna discriminate against me, but realizing I need to maintain nuance, that there's some people that are more welcoming and inclusive than others and if I don't maintain that nuance, I'm gonna inevitably be alienated. So I have to remind myself that just because someone is white, does it mean that they are going to be prejudice and discriminatory towards me. It's like what my self-protective brain is telling me.

Kate: <affirmative>. Oh, I'm so glad we asked that. I wanted to touch on one final thing you focus on in your book, which is affection because this fascinated me that you and was exciting that you included it. But this is again, not something I think we talk a lot about when it comes to platonic relationships. So what is the importance of affection as you see it? And this is also something that if it wasn't modeled to us, can be very hard to figure out how to navigate as adults. And so what are your thoughts and suggestions there?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: So many thoughts. So I talked a little bit before about how we're either in self protection mode or risk regulation, or sorry, risk regulation theory. We're in self protection mode or pro relationship mode. Affection is how we get other people out of self protection mode. So they feel comfortable being in pro relationship mode with us. So I'm conveying to you that I like you and you're valued and that is your invitation to stop protecting yourself and to let, to shed all of those behaviors that come with protecting yourself, that harm relationships and to feel comfortable investing in this relationship being more vulnerable in this relationship. Affection really helps us get there. The problem, Kate, just like what you said is that we just don't get the same permission that we do in our traditional spouse partnerships. And in that chapter I really had to look into history cuz what I found in history is that feelings of romance, which are I'm passionate about someone, I idealize them I feel a very fiery emotion towards them.

Those have been part of friendship for centuries, in fact, even more so than marriage. People got married in the early 18 hundreds and before practical reasons, I wanted someone whose name would look good with mine. They're from a family that is honored or they have resources. And the genders were considered so distinct that the idea was that only people of the same gender, your friends could you really deeply and intimately connect to. And so friends at that time would hold hands, carve their names into trees, write love letters for each other. Romance has just always been a part of friendship. And I wish we could normalize it as a part of friendship now because I think a lot of us feel like, Oh my God, I love this friend so much and I just wanna be around them all the time. And we're like, But is that weird? Is that creepy? And it's like, no, this has always been typical. This has always been normal. We've just started pretending that it wasn't. And that really limits our ability to show affection to our friends and to really reap all the benefits that deep affection could bring in the intimacy that could bring.

Kate: I wanted to ask one more thing, which is about Parasocial friendships, because this is, I feel like a new thing that we're navigating culturally, this idea of one-sided friendships with people who we actually truly don't know but feel like we know. Yeah, I know Doree and I have had this because we're podcasters and so people, they hear us in their ears and we have a very intimate relationship with them, but we've actually never met them How do we navigate this? Cuz I know I have parasocial relationships with different people also, celebrities, influencers, authors, whoever. Do you think we're veering into strange territory? Can these relationships be fulfilling? Are they the same as real friendships? What do you see as an expert here?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: I think they can contribute to our sense of satisfaction generally, and I think they're totally fine. I think the problem is parasocial relationships have begun to replace not regular social, typical social relationships. And that's the territory that is very harmful and damaging. Just like I talked about with social media. When we displace in person connection for Parasocial connection, it's almost like the liability of Parasocial connection is that it benefits us in some way. We're getting a snack and so then we're just like, I don't need the meal. I watch my favorite celebrity on tv. I kind of feel a little bit connected, so I don't need to go out there and actually make connections with people. It's like we're just fed a series of nutrient deprived snacks, I think with our media, with social media, with television because it's actually one of the biggest things that really started to make us lonely was the television. Because before that, people experienced leisure in community with others, and now they could experience leisure within the privacy of their own homes and still feel some level of connection cuz of those parasocial relationships. And so I think what I just wanna conclude that parasocial relationships are okay. Just make sure that you also have social relationships.

Kate: That is very good advice. I think we've relied on those relationships a lot over the last few years. So that is, <affirmative> is very good advice. <laugh>. Well, I feel like I've learned, I don't know. I mean, God, I wish you were my professor that you must have

Dr. Marisa Fran...: <laugh>.

Kate: Ugh. I've learned so much just in this conversation. Yes. Where, I mean, your book Platonic is out, Listeners can get it anywhere. You buy, borrow, listen to books. But where else can we follow along with you and your work and no pressure, but maybe have a parasocial friendship with you as well,

Doree: <laugh>?

Dr. Marisa Fran...: Sure. So I'm on Instagram at Dr Marissa g Franco. That's d R M a R i S A G F R A N C O. And on my website, www.doctoragfranco.com, you can access a quiz that assesses your strengths and weaknesses as a friend and gives you some suggestions or a reach out about speaking engagements about connection and belonging. And again, my book, if you wanna hear more in depth as to what we shared, is called Platonic, How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep

Kate: Friends. Thank you so much. This is so great.

Doree: Was Yeah, this was amazing.

Dr. Marisa Fran...: It was my pleasure. Yay. Bye y'all.

Kate: Doree, I was reviewing our intentions

Doree: Yes.

Kate: From last week. Yes. And you had put heatwave just as a note to yourself is what you were gonna talk about. And we've discussed how that's been going. Do you feel like you've been able to take care of yourself through this heatwave experience?

Doree: I mean, to be perfectly honest, I feel I'm glad that I have Central Air, very grateful that I have Central Air and I can stay at my house. But Henry gets very restless and antsy when we stay in the house all day. And that

He wants to leave, he wants to get out. He didn't nap Saturday or Sunday, I think partly because we didn't go, we barely went anywhere. And he's napping today. Maybe because we left the house this morning. I don't know. But that's just another factor is I think maybe with older kids it is a little easier to just park them in front of the TV or on an iPad and they're fine with it. And Henry wants to watch tv, but it also makes him cranky and sort of lethargic, but not tired. <laugh>, I don't know. It's weird. So kind of managing his feelings and needs during a heat wave is challenging and I'm just cranky. And also, we didn't tell everyone, both of us got our bivalent vaccines this weekend.

Kate: That's right. We got our boosters, baby. We

Doree: Got our boosters. So I got mine couple days ago and the day after I got it, my arm was really sore, very, very sore, and I had a headache. I just wasn't feeling great. And there was a heat wave and I had my period. It was just not a great day. And I would say tempers were afraid. <laugh> here. <laugh>. And yeah, I was not at my best. So I would say intention is sort of like a mess.

Kate: <laugh>.

Doree: And then this week, so this is the week that I'm actually traveling and I, my intention is to try and keep it moving and not <laugh> really trying to not sweat the small stuff.

Kate: Yeah. Yes.

Doree: It's kind of hard, but I'm trying. I am trying.

Kate: Well, for me, I think last week I had really committed to getting into my infrared sauna blanket, which is my mm-hmm. <affirmative>, wonderfully ridiculous. Exactly what it sounds like. Sauna blanket.

Doree: Yep, yep, yep.

Kate: And I did do it, and I love it and it makes me feel amazing, but I'm not doing it in a heatwave. So that's going on the back burner, even though it

Doree: Actually great points.

Kate: It's like the process of using it is different than if you laid out outside. But still, I am just going to put that on the back burner.

Doree: Okay.

Kate: Anyway.

Doree: And what about this week?

Kate: Oh, I have one more update though. I did send Okay. A letter per my two week ago intention to one of my BFFs, and she just texted me to say that she

Doree: Got it

Kate: And that she loves me.

Doree: So. Aww.

Kate: That really worked to my advantage.

Doree: <laugh>. Wait, what

Kate: Do you mean? I just wanted my friend to tell me that she loved me, so I

Doree: See. Oh, I see.

Kate: I was ha No, and I'm joking. I was really, it made my day that she got it, and I hope it made her happy. So I'm gonna try to keep writing some letters to people. So also, you know what? I will say, it was nice to be able to express my feelings about her in a handwritten way, because I feel like often that gets lost over text or phone calls. And it was just nice to kind of get a little sensitive and emotional in how I feel about her and write it down. Totally, highly recommend 10 out of 10, write your friend a letter.

Doree: Oh, okay.

Kate: Right. I will <laugh> and write it to me this week. This is the most boring, least sexy intention ever. But Penny, our puppy ate my retainer, My tooth?

Doree: No,

Kate: That I just recently got. Yes, she ate it.

Doree: Oh, okay. What a bummer. <laugh>.

Kate: So literally, my intention this week is to call my dentist to get a new retainer because I don't want those teeth to move.

Doree: Oh my gosh. <laugh> Unreal. My dog. My dog ate my retainer story. It

Kate: Is truly, I mean, this dog eats paper, so I said to my children like, This dog literally could eat your homework. So we have to be super careful. She is just majorly a puppy right now, and I don't hold it against her. She's a puppy, of course.

Doree: She's a puppy.

Kate: She's a very good girl. But I think my retainer fell on the ground of my bedroom and Oh. Because then I found shards of it in my bed and I just, Oh

Doree: No. Oh, so

Kate: Yeah. Yeah.

Doree: Was she okay? She didn't suffer any ill effects.

Kate: She, I'm, I have been watching her for the last 24 hours and examining her poops and she seems fine. I don't know if she actually swallowed any of it or just chewed up, so, Yeah.

Doree: Oh my gosh.

Kate: Dogs, dogs, dogs. Dogs, honey. Ugh. She's a piece of work. This one. Oh, all right. Well, Doree, that brings us to the end of the road here.

Doree: It sure should. We remind everyone that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and you, Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. And Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partners a cast. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you soon.

Kate: Farewell.