Episode 234: Everything Is Misery, Find Your Pocket of Joy with Scaachi Koul
Doree starts a new PowerZone Challenge and Kate continues to explore building her community through pickleball. Then, Scamfluencers co-host and BuzzFeed Senior Culture Writer Scaachi Koul joins the podcast to chat about how scammers would have their hands full with her, her thoughts on not being averse to confrontation, and why her thirties have taught her that nothing really matters.
Photo Credit: Seb Fox Allen
Mentioned in this Episode
Help us reach $20,000 by donating to the Forever35 Giving Circle!
To leave a voicemail or text for a future episode, reach them at 781-591-0390. You can also email the podcast at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Visit forever35podcast.com for links to everything they mention on the show or shopmyshelf.us/forever35.
Follow the podcast on Twitter (@Forever35Pod) and Instagram (@Forever35Podcast) and join the Forever35 Facebook Group (Password: Serums).
Sign up for the newsletter! At forever35podcast.com/newsletter.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links.
Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No. But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums
Kate: And you can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com for links to everything we mention on the show. You can follow us on Twitter at forever
Doree: 35
Kate: Pod Instagram at Forever 35 podcast and you can join the Forever 35 Facebook group. The password is serums.
Doree: Indeed. You can. We are also on, I guess it's just called Shop My now. It used to be called Shop My Shelf. But you can find us on shop my at Shop my.us/forever 35 of a newsletter Forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And please do call and text us at (781) 591-0390 or email us at forever 35 podcast gmail.com.
Kate: And hey, you know what? We always appreciate it when you leave us a nice review on Apple Podcasts. So if you're inclined today just to tap those five stars, we thank you. We thank you deeply from the bottom of our hearts.
Doree: Indeed. And also I just need to keep plugging our balance bound Forever 35 Club cuz I just want everyone to have it. It's just so cool. You
Kate: Know what, I actually have been, so I'm over here kind of noting through a book that I'm reading, like a writing book and I've been using my go on post-it notes and it's really funny because I'm feeling a little precious about them because they're like my fancy post-it notes and I'm making myself use them how we make ourselves use the nice things.
Doree: Well you make ourselves use the nice things. Yes.
Kate: So I'm making myself use my Forever 35 post-it notes, even though I wanna savor them and not use them.
Doree: I love this so much.
Kate: Thank you very much. They're great Post-it notes, they're super cute and they make me smile every time I look at them. I'm like, Oh Trala,
Doree: Do you hear my voice?
Kate: Yeah, but I hear your voice all day long. Even when I'm not with you. You're just, you're always with me. You're part of me now. <laugh>.
Doree: Oh gosh, I'm sorry.
Kate: No, are you kidding? It's great. It's like having just a gentle nurturer always guiding me through the day. Oh,
Doree: So funny. That is,
Kate: Oh anyway, Doree talk to me here because you're back on the Peloton bike and I'm happy for you, I'm happy you to dip a toe back into a self care routine that I think really got you through the darker days of the pandemic that we are still in.
Doree: I agree. So Peloton actually not affiliated with Peloton. There's this woman who runs a website called Power Zone Pack and she puts together these usually six to eight week challenges several times a year. And I'd done a bunch of them and then we started a Forever 35 team and it was super fun. And then I kind of fell off the Peloton wagon. I didn't fall off the Peloton bike thankfully. Oh good. But I hadn't, I hadn't done one and I hadn't even gotten on the bike since May. And she introduced because part of the thing was that it was a big commitment. It was usually you could choose to do three rides a week and it would be 2 45 minute rides and then on the weekends it would be a 60, anywhere from a 60 to a 90 minute ride. So it was like I really needed to set aside a set aside serious time for it. But she introduced with the last challenge, she introduced a time crunch option where you do two 30 minute rides during the week and 1 45 minute ride on the weekends. And I was like, okay, this is a little bit more my speed. I can figure out how to make this work in my life. So I'm doing it. I've only done one ride so far. It was tough
Kate: <laugh>. Okay.
Doree: For sure. I was like, oh boy, okay. <laugh>. But yeah, but I'm excited to be doing it again. So yeah.
Kate: How long will you do it? Is that for three months?
Doree: No, God no. I think it's six
Kate: Weeks. Oh, okay, okay.
Doree: Yeah, it's like six weeks. It's like a solid chunk of time, but not totally not super long.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: So
Kate: Yeah,
Doree: Good for you. I'm part excited. So I mean
Kate: You find just a daily active movement kind of just helps a little bit of something mentally. Are you there?
Doree: I do find that there are day, yesterday was just a busy day and I didn't get any in and that's okay. Yeah. Just of
Kate: Course
Doree: It happens. But I do like to move my
Kate: <affirmative> <affirmative>. I do too. Even just a dog walk I find just as something for me just, I just need a 10 minute something
Doree: <affirmative>.
Kate: Although yesterday it was a pickle ball day for me, which is the greatest joy in my life. So I think when I finish my five weeks of pickle ball lessons I can kind of share where I'm at. But I'm freaking loving it.
Doree: I love this for you. Well
Kate: I think it's part of, I, I've been making some lifestyle adjustments going along with how I felt like my body was not recovering from covid and dealing with some long covid symptoms. But I think another part of it was, and I think I, I've talked about this cuz I've been inspired by you, is that I really had no social interactions. Yeah. I wasn't seeing anybody or if I was, it was just yelling at another parent out the window, dropping my kids off at school. It wasn't just for me. So I'm trying to really figure out what are changes that improve my wellbeing inside and out and that I think that's one of them.
Doree: I love that. So that's so fun. And you're doing it with people you were already friendly with or these Yes. Strangers,
Kate: Not strangers already. Other people I'm friendly with who I know in different levels, but they're great. We've had a lot of fun. The coach is really fun. The other people who are there pickle balling are very welcoming, which is nice cuz I can't wait to get into it with them on the courts. This also triggers, it's very funny watching and this is happening with everyone I'm playing with all are things coming into play a lot. We're all oldest children so we're all kind of profess Oh my, yeah, there's all my coach. I kept apologizing if I missed something and he was like, you cannot apologize anymore. And that's a life lesson I'm always constantly trying to learn. So it's interesting just watching. I struggle with, if something doesn't come easily to me right away, I assume I have to be amazing at everything on the first try. And so its fun as I'm sure you've experienced with some of the hobbies that you have reflecting on those parts of yourselves, <laugh>.
Doree: Yeah, I do know for sure whole if I'm not good at something right away I wanna quit. That's real. And also, I was actually talking about this with my tennis instructor recently, is that something like that I know used to be true about myself is I was always pretty good at a lot of things. But when it would get to the point where I had to, you know, had to work a little harder to get really good at it, I was like, Oh, this is too hard. Which I think is classic of gifted child syndrome. I'm not unique in this at all. There have been actual studies on this but that's also annoying. And so <laugh> now as an adult, I, I'm trying to recognize that. I'm trying to recognize my impulses when something gets hard. For example, the tennis serve is very hard <laugh> and I am just not good at it.
I never really learned how to serve as a kid. I took tennis lessons, but again, never got really good. Never got good enough to learn how to serve. And it's freaking hard. We've been working on it for months. I can of do it now, but not really well. And I think past me would've just been like, You know what, it's fine. I don't need to learn how to serve. I'm just playing casually. I'm just gonna drop the ball and hit it and it'll be fine. And now I'm like, you know what? I need to get over myself and put in the work and learn how to serve because that's part of playing tennis.
Kate: It's interesting. It sounds like you have to learn how to sit with the urge to judge yourself. <affirmative>. I don't think we're ever gonna stop. You can't stop yourself from judging. That sounds very hard, but just acknowledging that you're doing it and moving forward seems
Doree: Totally, This has also happened a couple times with piano where my teacher will give me a new piece to start learning and I'll like go home and it'll be hard and I'll come in the next week and I'll be like, You know what, I didn't, I don't like this. I didn't really vibe with it. And he'll be like, Okay, that's fine. His attitude is very much like, this is for your own enjoyment. If you don't like something, we can move on. But what has happened now a couple of times is I've then gone home after the second week of not doing the piece and I've tried it again and then I come in and I'm like, well actually <laugh>
Actually come around on this piece and we can work on it <laugh>. And I think it's the same sort of thing. My initial instinct is to be like, this is too hard or I don't like it. I'm not feeling it <affirmative>. And sometimes I really am not feeling it. Sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I don't like this piece. But then other times I'm like, Well am I not feeling it because I'm not feeling it or am I not feeling it? Because I think it's hard and it will actually take some serious effort to learn this. It's interesting.
Kate: Well it is interesting because we're talking about letting ourselves be not good at something. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> be bad at something and with the possibility of never being good at it, can you still enjoy it? I have this fear of, and this is something I've struggled with my whole life that's held me back where I don't want to do something unless I'm amazing at it. I think out of fear of either embarrassment or letting the other people down or them being disappointed. I don't wanna go play to a court and try to join a pickle ball game cuz I'm not good. And then I'm, I'm gonna lose the game for everybody and people are gonna be mad at me. How do I work working through that and still letting yourself enjoy things not based on whether or not you're good at it. And this all sounds also unlearning capitalism and productivity and all this kind of the feist fetishization of this shit. Can we do anything just for enjoyment? And I
Doree: Totally, I think we're actually, we are talking about two slightly different things.
Kate: I think you're right.
Doree: But yeah, I mean that's also true. It's okay to be mediocre at something that's fine.
Kate: And to keep doing it.
Doree: Yeah, totally.
Kate: That doesn't have to stop. It's not like if you're mediocre at something or this is what I've always thought, Oh, I'm not mediocre at this. I should stop. Why am I wasting my time
Doree: So I shouldn't do it? Right, Exactly. Right. Exactly. Yeah, I hear that.
Kate: Fascinating
Doree: To hear that. It is fascinating. It's just, it is all this stuff that we've internalized and taken as just the way it is and doesn't necessarily have to be that way.
Kate: Well I, again, I don't wanna speak for the way you experience this, but for me, I'm essentially blocking myself from experiencing joy because I'm putting all these qualifiers on things. Yes. I can only do this if Yes. Yes. Dot, dot, dot. And so understanding how to experience pleasure and joy without outcome, I don't know if without
Doree: Yeah totally.
Kate: Oh, what's the word? Without production of something is something I really want for myself.
Doree: I mean, it's interesting as we're sort of talking this through, because I am thinking back to when I started piano and I remember saying, I just wanna do this for the enjoyment. I don't have a goal, I don't have a, I'm not trying to pass an exam or do a recital or whatever. But I also think there is something very rewarding about getting better at something. You know what I mean? I agree. Yes. So totally. I totally hear you and I agree with you. And I also find for myself, it is rewarding to work at something and get better. But I think what I need to remember is that it's okay to not be the best.
Kate: In fact, most of the time we are not going to be, It's also not always fun to be the best.
Doree: Yeah, totally.
Kate: You know what, I wanted to just circle back to what you were saying about when you started piano because I don't know if you remember my response, but I was like, Oh Doree, will you play us? Are you gonna play us a song? Will you do that? I immediately turned it into what are you gonna show for it? Kind of. Yes. And you were very
Doree: Like, Yes, I remember that.
Kate: Yeah. Which is interesting, that instinct to constantly be like, Well what's the thing that's gonna come out of this <affirmative>? As opposed to just me learning and enjoying and improving, Not the performing of the thing. I don't know, I This is having a moment of reflection here.
Doree: No, I totally agree.
Kate: I think I just realized recently, I'm not sure I have anything in my life that really brings me joy. Which I mean, and this is not to say really, this is not just for the pure act of that working on this podcast with you does spending time with my children. Mm-hmm. Does. And my husband being reading a book, all these things do. But joy for joy's sake for me, just for personally, I don't think I have that right now other than reading books about humans having sex with monsters, which is something, I
Doree: Mean, but yeah, I mean that is also real. <laugh> real.
Kate: Yes. It's just, I think you know what, even for that, there's a caveat because my job is a writer and so there's always a part of me that reading is a part of my work and I always wanna be reading in order to deepen my understanding of writing and support other authors and all these enjoy their work. But I was just kind of like, what the fuck do I do? That's for me, that's like just for fun.
Doree: I mean, that's why people have hobbies.
Kate: Circling back, Circling
Doree: Back. That's literally, I think the definition of a hobby.
Kate: I think you're right.
Doree: So it's interesting. These are all interesting things to think about.
Kate: I was gonna tell you all my infrared sauna blanket, but I will save that for another time. Cause it's not my, But
Doree: That is a tease, Kate.
Kate: I have an infrared sauna blanket. Right. I've told you about this. I sent you, Yes. I'm pretty sure I sent you a photo of just my head as I asked
Doree: In the
Kate: Of my infrared
Doree: Sauna blanket. You did. You did. I will
Kate: Will definitely be sure to talk about my infrared sauna blanket because I do really like it. So
Doree: Do you promise
Kate: I swear on the life of my dog who's sitting right here next to me.
Doree: Loose goose
Kate: <laugh>. It's actually pen, pen
Doree: Penn.
Kate: It's Penny Penny's the one who's relaxing in the office with me. Lucy, I walked in after dropping my kids off from school and she was sitting on the dining room table just,
Doree: Oh yes, you did send a picture of that. Which I
Kate: Really appreciate. You and Sammy would enjoy Lucy's vibe of just sitting at a table. Thank
Doree: You.
Kate: Well, should we transition to our interview? This was a really fun chat.
Doree: Oh my gosh, this was so fun. I freaking love <laugh> Sachi.
Kate: I do too. I mean, I've been a huge fan of hers via the internet for so long that it was mm-hmm <affirmative> very exciting ticket to bring her on the show and kind of fangirl over video chat. Yeah,
Doree: Totally tota.
Kate: Well, spoiler alert, our guest is Sachi. Cool. You might know that Doreean Sachi worked together at Buzzfeed, where Satchi is currently a senior culture writer. She's based in New York and known for her brash, smart, and witty commentary. She's just one of my personal favorite writers to read her first book One Day Will All Be Dead and none of this will matter, is a collection of essays about family, race, gender, and all things Missouri that is out. You can read that wherever you like to buy books. It was a best seller in Canada. And after its subsequent publication, publication in the US was raped about in the Washington Post Rolling Stone, the Village Voice everywhere. Her second essay collection,
Doree: Her book is So me, Can I just interrupt and say please
Kate: Interrupt if
Doree: You have not read Satie's book. It's really, really good. It's really good. I really think everyone should read it. Okay. That's all. I'll shut up now.
Kate: Well, she's also working on a second essay collection cult. I hope Lightning falls on you. So we have more to look forward to in that department. And Satchi is also the co-host of the Scam Influencers podcast, which is really exactly, which is the title should tell you everything. It's about scammy influencers and it's a really, really fun listen. I love it.
Doree: Yeah, it's so great. So without further ado, we're gonna take a short break and we're gonna come back with, We are so excited to have you on the show today. Welcome to Forever 35.
Scaachi Koul: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Kate: Yeah, you all are previously coworkers, but I'm just a dorky fan of your work, so I'm especially excited.
Scaachi Koul: No, that's nice that you say. I will say I value losers who my work more than colleagues, so that's
Kate: Fine. That makes me feel what that booths my ego to a new
Scaachi Koul: Degree. Well, you know what,
Doree: I was originally a loser who liked your work
Scaachi Koul: <laugh>. But you know what, it's just, it's sours. Once we know each other, I <laugh>, I suspect people meet me and then they're like, Oh, alright.
Kate: Well,
Doree: Not true, but whatevs
Scaachi Koul: <laugh>.
Kate: So Sachi, welcome to Forever 35. We always get started on the pod by asking people for a self care practice that they have currently going on in their life. <affirmative>. So we will begin here with you if, is there anything that you do on a regular basis that you consider?
Scaachi Koul: Yeah so the close friends function on Instagram. I know a lot of people who use it kind of liberally and then they have 60 people in close friends and then that. And it's sort of the people they know in real life. For me, I have 12 people in close friends and I am so rude in there. I'm so shitty in there and it really makes me feel good.
Kate: This is amazing cuz I think I might have over a hundred people in close friends.
Scaachi Koul: Yeah. I got 12 friends.
Doree: Oh, I found out my husband has hundreds.
Scaachi Koul: He's
Doree: Just, he hardly ever posted social media. And then one time he posted something to close friends and he, I don't know, I said something about it and he was like, Oh, I don't know. There's literally hundreds of people in there. I don't give a shit. And I was like,
Scaachi Koul: I know it's weird. And I post truly, it's the recesses of my brain. Things that I really would never really normally say unless I'm having a drink with a few close people and I've had friends text me and be like, Hey, what did you just post that? We can all see this, right? And I'm like, Yeah babe, it's you and don't worry <laugh>. Right. Don't worry about that. It's just
Doree: Guys, we can all see it. Yeah,
Scaachi Koul: Yeah. It's like, yeah, you can see my design. It makes me feel better. Yes, it stresses everybody else out, but I know how many people are actually seeing it. So it's fun. It's yelling something into a megaphone, but only 12 people can speak the language. I think being rude is self-care. Asked the wrong person. Clearly. I'm on all
Doree: Of this though because, Oh no, go ahead. Sorry.
Scaachi Koul: No, no, no, no, I'm done.
Doree: Well I was just gonna say, I really love this because I feel like a lot of people struggle with social media and kind of how to make it work for them, but also what to share and who's seeing it and <affirmative>, this is such a great way to take back the control and also use it as a real outlet.
Scaachi Koul: <affirmative>. Yeah. I think the best way to live life is just to do whatever you want. <laugh>. That advice can't be mutated into a bad thing, right? Not at all.
Doree: No. There's no
Scaachi Koul: Way for someone to read poorly into what I just said.
Doree: No. And there would be no problem if everyone followed that advice all the time. Listen,
Scaachi Koul: If we were all Bart Simpsons, the world would be a better place. <laugh>, just do it man.
Kate: I love how non performative that sounds like even I think even with my close friends on Instagram, there is still an element of curating and considering and it's so much of what social media is and it sounds like in that space that is the opposite for you. Which sounds
Doree: So
Scaachi Koul: Cake. It is a garbage pile. It is the thick juice at the bottom of your trash wretched in there. So ugly. I'm mean about myself. I'm lost. It's great. It's a great, And you know what, it's a time saver. Cause instead of texting three separate group chats about what I'm doing wrong, I can just put it there and then they all just sort of know. And so great. It's, it's, I've had a really hectic year so far, so it saves me a lot of time of explaining my own bad choices. I can't recommend it enough.
Kate: I might have to start narrow narrowing down in my close friends.
Scaachi Koul: I mean, listen, I also have a public account, so I don't really care. I think I have increasingly sort of treated, my internet presence is just nothing ephemera. And so then the close friends function is sort of, I guess I could tell all you guys separately about this, but you're gonna hear about it anyway, <laugh>. So here's what just happened. I'll talk to you about it when
Doree: We get I love that. Using close friends as just a big group chat. Yeah,
Scaachi Koul: Well
Kate: Also because you can connect. I mean, I think what you're saying it would be if I took my college friends group chat and my high school friends group chat and maybe my mom friends and then through Doree and our group chat in there, all people who don't know each other but know the
Scaachi Koul: Darkness. Yeah. Well the fun thing is now within this group because they've all sort of asked who else is in here <laugh>. And I've told them, so Isaac Fitzgerald always texts me. Isaac is a writer. Doree knows Isaac. I dunno Kate, if you know Isaac, I know who he is yet you know who he is. So he'll always, he'll text me and he'll be like, What the hell's going on in there? And I'm like, Don't worry about that. That was for my high school friend who <laugh> somehow through this weird circle.
Doree: Yeah, it's great. That's so funny. It's
Scaachi Koul: Bullying your friends to be friends with each other through their anxious responses to your own destruction. I think it's working just fine.
Doree: All right. I mean, I'm gonna be thinking about this. You
Scaachi Koul: Should do it. I'm telling you. There's a lot. It's fun. It's great. And then people get, they get petty in there with you cuz they were like, It's a safe space. And you're like, Sure <laugh>. Sure.
Doree: Well, Sathi, one of the reasons that we wanted to chat with you is because of your newish, newish podcast, Scam Influencers, which Kate and I are both big fans of. Thank you. That you do with your friends. Sarah, can you talk a little bit about the show? Yeah. Not just why you decided to do it, but what is it about this confluence of scams and influencers that is so perfect for dissecting?
Scaachi Koul: Yeah. Yeah. The show's called Scam Influencers. I host it with Sarah Haie, an old friend of mine from my Toronto days. She's still in Toronto. I live in New York now. And every week we find a story or sometimes we have single stories that take a couple weeks to tell cause they're so complicated, frustrating and upsetting and we dissect a scam, but specifically a scam where someone is using the power of influence. A lot of social media influence to propagate that scam. And obviously scam artist stories are so compelling. They've always been compelling. I think sometimes when there's a shift in how we consume a certain kind of content, everybody talks about how the content is new. A couple years ago everyone was like, Wow, you guys noticed there's lots of true crime stuff. And I remember being like, didn't nobody grow up watching the a and e documentaries about Ted Bundy?
Cuz those things were made in 1996 and I was watching them well into 2008. It's not different. What's different is that there's a different infrastructure where we're sort of engaging in that work. So scam stories aren't new. Everybody loves a scam story. But I think the stuff that we're looking at is specifically how the internet has shifted some of those, I mean it's actually, it's a lot easier to scam people now than it used to be. But it's also a lot easier to find out if somebody's scamming you because you can Google it. Whereas years ago, if somebody was pull some shit on, you couldn't really, it was a lot harder to figure out if they were lying. It was all of that was a much more complex mechanism of discovery. But now it's like it's a little easier cuz you have the access to do the research yourself as an individual. But it also means that those people have a way easier time sort of sewing the seed of whatever they're spreading around the world. It's way easier cuz all you need is your phone.
Kate: And having, I've listened to all of scam influencers, I got very sucked in. And what's so fascinating to me is that even in the world of the internet, people are so quick to trust. So many people don't do a quick deep dive on these people who they're just giving money to.
Scaachi Koul: And I mean, people are lost. A lot of people who fall into these things are lost. They're looking for an answer. And so they get one and they're not really that interested at that point. They're not really going to investigate it if you want to be told what you're being told. Not a lot that I can tell you or that anybody could tell you. I think we did a couple episodes about Guru Juat, who's this white lady who started this weird yoga company. That one was my favorite. She changed her name's Katie Griggs and she changed her name Juat, which obviously I had a real hard time with as an ethnic with a weird name. It's like you get to go through the world as Katie and you're gonna try to make it more complicated. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. But people who were following her wanted her to be right. So it doesn't matter. You can look her up all you want. And they knew she wasn't born grew it. No one is <laugh> like no one's born a grew. That's not how it works. It's being born with a PhD doesn't happen. You gotta do some stuff to get it. But it is still fun and interesting to sort of think about how the lies and the misinformation gets distributed through these influencer models that are somewhat newer than scams.
Kate: Well it's interesting. I mean I think what's great about the podcast is you're highlighting these really big scam stories, <affirmative>, but there is a part of it that makes you reflect on the own ways in which we kind of willingly allow ourselves to be scammed in the larger scheme of things. <affirmative> are half of the things in my medicine cabinet that I put on my face. Are they scams? Maybe?
Scaachi Koul: Yeah. I mean probably. Yes. Probably. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I bought a new face too. Although I do think that one works. I gotta say
Kate: I do too. I like the new face. It's pretty good. It requires, Are you a daily new face user? Cause I feel like it requires the
Scaachi Koul: Daily routine. I don't think you need to do it daily. I think you gotta do it like three to four times a week. Okay. So I try to do it on the nights that I'm not drunk. <laugh>. When I am, I'm like, Ah, I've accepted, Today's a wash. Let's just go to bed. If the makeup's off, we're doing great. But yeah, you do have to do it consistently. Yeah. I mean lots of things are a scam. Lots of course. Plenty. I mean, being alive is a scam. The healthcare system is a scam. Oh, student debt's a scam. It's all nonsense
Doree: Mean. But when we're talking about these kind of scammers on an individual level like you do in this podcast, <affirmative> can you talk a little bit about the common threads that you saw running through the stories? What does it take to become a scammer?
Scaachi Koul: Oh, that's a good question. One of the fun things and complicated things about the shows. We often dig into the childhoods and the deep backstories of some of these people. And a lot of them just had really rough upbringings and really rough childhoods and really rough. It's almost like, this isn't quite the way I should frame it, but it's almost like they came by it honestly. They really just got their asses kicked and this was the thing that they had to do. We're working on a story right now. I don't wanna spoil it, but it's one of the more complicated stories because the woman who's the scammer, she had a really rough go as a teenager, a really rough go. And you can see how she just stopped believing in anybody else's humanity cuz nobody believed in hers at that point. And it's like, well fuck it, then I'm gonna do whatever I want. I can kind of understand that it's not defensible, but I get it. Yes. So there's a lot
Doree: Of, It's an explanation. It's not a justifi
Scaachi Koul: Justification, it's an explanation. It's not a justification. Exactly. Yes. And so there's a lot of that. And because these people are raised or find themselves in environments where they're not really being treated with any care, they confuse attention and adulation for respect and care. And so they'll get it at whatever in way they need to do it. And that's really unfortunate. And again, the internet makes it easier to do that. And it's partly why I think a lot of them get so defensive when they get caught. There are certainly examples of people where that is not true. Some people are born rotten. That's the other thing I've sort of realized. Some people come out of the womb sour and I don't know, they gotta go back up there and just date a little longer. I don't know what's wrong with them. But I would say for the most part, people truly come out looking to be good and the rest of us ruin them. And then at that point, I think it's hard for them to have compassion for the people that they're ripping off because they're just so worried about themselves. But I also think there's some cases, I think a lot of the stories we tell about men are different than the stories we tell about women. I think women, their motivations are a little more complicated. And the men are much
Doree: More,
Scaachi Koul: The men just want money and attention and they're lazy in a lot of cases. And the weird thing is, with some of these scams, it's like if you put half of this energy into doing whatever the thing you wanna do, if you put how that energy into doing it legitimately, you'd be fine. Yes, yes. But because you've decided you can't do it that way, you've expanded so much effort and energy and time and money, your own money and other people's money into lying
Doree: Because a lot of these are so complex.
Scaachi Koul: So
Kate: The teen doctor,
Scaachi Koul: The teen doctor one was that one was really strange. And that was such a clear thing of if that kid spent some time actually studying, and if he started his own practice and he became an influencer physician with a real degree, he'd be fine. But I don't know if it's that they think that they can't do it legitimately as someone's telling them that they can't. I don't know what it is, but
Doree: Yeah. Well, I mean there has to be the adrenaline of getting one over on someone. I mean, yeah,
Scaachi Koul: That
Doree: Has to be part of it.
Scaachi Koul: But I think they also live in perpetual anxiety of being caught. Yes. I don't get it. Cuz that to me is the thing that would stop me from a lot of those scams. I already have imposter complex and what do I do? I love my little article. I'm not doing anything. I'm not curing cancer over here. So that's enough for me. But they are, I don't know, I guess they compartmentalize it so well, I couldn't do that. I would go through every moment of my life worry that somebody would know that I was full of shit. Worried about that now. Yeah.
Doree: So it seems like so logistically you just have to keep track of all your lives. Yeah. It's just
Scaachi Koul: Exhausting. It's exhausting. And that's how they get caught. They have these fake email accounts. They're pretending to be executives or billionaires or to pretend to be an actual billionaire is hysterical to me. We did one story about this guy who was funding this very stupid movie venture. Millions of dollars. He was siphoning from his investors and he had claimed that he had Howard Schultz as an investor. Yes. Billionaire who owns Starbucks. Starbucks. And he didn't know who this guy was. And it's like, God, the time you gotta take to pretend to be Howard Schultz. Oh my God. Right after he runs for president too. Jesus Christ. That
Kate: Story was wild too, because the wife, he had a wife who was married to him for a
Scaachi Koul: Decade for years, has no kids. She had no idea. And she found out because they rated her house in the middle of the night and took her husband away.
Kate: I did some deep dive Googling on those people. Cause they're here in
Scaachi Koul: La <laugh>. I know. Yeah. And she didn't know. No. Would you, And it's sort of a funny thing with the wives and the husbands too, cuz it's like, why would you even, Would you Google it if your partner tells you, I have an investor not gonna go fact check it. She's got kids to feed. Yeah, man.
Kate: What do you think, you mentioned earlier the kind of obsession with true crime <affirmative> and so many as podcasters. I often scroll through the top 100 pods and it's mostly true. It's much true crime, it's scams and murder. But there's something we get out of listening to these stories, <affirmative>. And I still don't know if I've ever seen anyone fully capture what it is. Why are we drawn to this?
Scaachi Koul: Well first, I think generally in audio space, non-fiction seems to be taking precedence. Fiction doesn't sort of hit in the same way. The true crime. And the scam artist of it all, I think is because when you get to hear a story about a scam artist, it usually means that they've already been caught. So you can engage in it in a way where, oh, they lost. There's a comfort in knowing that somebody thought they were gonna figure out a way to jump the line and they failed and then they get punished for it way more than they would've if they just never did it at all. So I think it's human nature to feel a little bit of weird pleasure when people don't complete the scam. Sha Andrey in that <affirmative>. And then the other thing is it also tells us what to look out for in terms of other scam artists because they all have a very similar pattern.
Every scam story is variations on a tune cuz it's all it is. There are these sort of rituals that they go through these patterns, they all sort of say similar things. The context change and the details change. But there is this sort of rhythm that they all follow. So there's something prescriptive about listening to it. It sort of gives us some sort of protective ele or perhaps false protective element. Cuz we're still getting scammed every day. All of us are. But yeah, I think it's partly of in luxuriating in someone's misery. So when we think deserves it, and then also sort the protective element of it. And then the details are fun scams are interesting. It's interesting to think about how somebody pulls this all together. I've seen a talented brister ripley several times. Cause it's just fun to watch 'em lie. <laugh> fun to watch people lie <laugh>. Very simple. Okay,
Kate: Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Scaachi Koul: All right,
Kate: We are back.
Scaachi Koul: I'm wondering, we talked a little bit about any
Doree: Common threads amongst the scammers, <affirmative>, but are there any common threads in your opinion amongst the marks like,
Scaachi Koul: Oh no, who?
Doree: Who are people who get taken in by scammers? Is it random or are there certain kinds of people or people with certain characteristics that make them kind of easier marks?
Scaachi Koul: I dunno, that's a good question. I think it really depends on the kind of scam. When you look at financial scams, crypto scams or these sort of, which I still don't know what the hell that is, but there's a very specific kind of person who gets caught in that. And it's somebody who also wants to get ahead in a way that jumps the line and then they don't. I think for spiritual scams it's often women. It's women who are looking for purpose and for meaning and for community and for comfort. What LuLaRoe was like, all the women who got caught in LuLaRoe got caught in it because they were trying to build community. And unfortunately that community came through spending however much they were spending on these boxes of molding leggings. But it was important, right?
Yeah. I don't know. I think it varies. And I think it also depends on how close you as the mark are getting to the scam artist. Some people get caught up in Anna Delvy, you get caught up in the fact that she's fun. Presumably she better have been fun <laugh> otherwise, what was the point? Sometimes they give you just enough to stick around. They show just enough of their wealth to make you think that eventually it's gonna come back to you. <affirmative>. I don't know. I think we're all kind of all susceptible to it. I don't have any sort of high minded opinion of myself that I wouldn't be caught in it. Sure I have. Sure. In some way I will in the future. I just don't know what that would be yet. I mean I'm also generally unpleasant and distrustful of most things, so that does sort give me some protection. But I feel like if somebody tried to scam me, they'd spend a little time with me and then they'd be like, I don't know, this one's kind of annoying. Maybe there's something else. This is a lot of work. <laugh>. So I dunno. Dunno yet.
Doree: Sachi, you turned 30 last year.
Scaachi Koul: I turned 30. Yeah, I did.
Doree: How has the transition to your thirties been? Talk to us <laugh>.
Scaachi Koul: It's been amazing. I'm getting a divorce and all my bones hurt. <laugh> what I was told my thirties would be and seems to be accurate. It's coming true. Coming true. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I didn't notice it. I don't think 29 affected me more. Cause 29 was like, Ooh, I got a year left of being a wonder kid and then I'm just a person. And when I turned 30 I was like, <laugh> over. That's okay. But I'm also somebody who was 30 when I was 14. As I'm sure you have been able to glean from this 30 minute conversation. This is just who I've been.
Doree: I think I met you when you were like 25 and
Scaachi Koul: Yeah, I was 24. 25, 20.
Doree: Yeah. I mean,
Scaachi Koul: Yeah. You had a
Doree: World weariness <laugh>.
Scaachi Koul: Yeah, I was. I'm a wizard prone Doree over it. You just say
Doree: It. Yeah.
Scaachi Koul: No, no. I'm Benjamin. I'm emotionally Benjamin buttoning. So perhaps in my fifties I'll have the exuberance of a young teenager for now. <laugh> not quite. Yeah.
Doree: What does that mean? What does emotionally Benjamin Buck buttoning mean?
Scaachi Koul: My spirit is getting younger as I age. Maybe I doubt it. I actually think it might be getting worse. But yeah, I mean I'm right, right. To be world weary. <laugh>. Yeah.
Doree: No, to be proven
Scaachi Koul: Wrong about that.
Doree: But I'm not, Yeah. Debate. I'm certainly not debating that.
Scaachi Koul: <laugh>. Yeah, I'm an old woman. That's pretty good. I dunno. Yeah, thirties. The thirties are good. The twenties were fine, The teens were terrible. How much? Maybe the forties will be amazing. I don't know. I was about to say, how much worse could it get? I'm never saying that again. I'm never saying that again. In 2020 for New Year's 2020, me and my soon-to-be ex-husband put up a banner in our homes. Cause our 2019 was so rough cause we just moved to New York that year. It was very hard. We were dealing with immigration, it was super complicated. And we put up a banner that said 2020 can't get worse.
Doree: <laugh>. Oh my God.
Scaachi Koul: You know what? It could and did several times over. So I eventually will have some sort of seance where I burn that banner. I'm just trying to find a fire safe sort of area to do it in. Cause I'm pretty sure <laugh>, the banner is somehow imbued with some sort of weird gasoline, spirit soaked in gas. It'll you flame up into the sky. The EPA is gonna sue me. But yeah, so now I never say it can't get worse cuz it can. But it's all right. It's been good. The nice thing about your thirties is you really stop caring about anything other than, Have you noticed that? Truly, Oh, you feel that shift? I don't give a shit about anything. <laugh> good. It's nice. I think I'm probably the most authentic version of myself with lots of people, including my family, which was a, That's very tough.
And I'm the youngest in my extended family, so that's hard to find a way to be honest with them when they, everybody views me as I'm still six. I solidified in their memory as a six year old today. My dad was like, I told him that I needed him to drive me to the bank cause I needed to go to my Canadian bank. And he was like, How much money do you have in those accounts? And I told him and he's like, How come I can't see it? And I was like, cuz I took it out of the account that you can see. Cuz he opened my bank account when I was 12. He's still on the account cuz he wouldn't remove himself because why would he? And I moved all the money out of that one and he was like, Why? I'm like, Cuz I don't need you to see it. I'm 31 years old. And he was like, But I seeing it. I'm like, I know, but I'm 31 and I don't wanna litigate with you my finances or what I've purchased. Right. But yeah, I think I'm in that phase now where I really have seen with experience that nothing matters. So I don't get too hot about stuff anymore. It just doesn't matter.
Kate: Do you have an example of a moment in your life where that hit
Scaachi Koul: For you? Oh my God. Literally nothing matters. Everything's fine. Every friend that I sort of stressed out about, maybe we weren't supposed to be friends forever. Sometimes people in your life for a particular season, you release that when it's done. I think I'm very grateful for my marriage and for my relationship and I wish 'em well. But I think I had a lot of anxiety about telling people that I was getting a divorce and the anxiety of, well what will people think of me and what will my family say and what will people say to my family? What will, it was very will the neighbors think. And I told everybody and I was like, Oh, alright, well unpleasant <laugh> care me wrong. Not easy, unpleasant, unpleasant. But then it's done and then the next day starts and you're like, Oh, well it wasn't war. So it just doesn't really matter. <affirmative>, everybody's fed and safe. And again, it's unpleasant, but it's not the Greek tragedy that my mother perhaps would tell you it is. But even I think she has sort of seen, it's fine. I have all of my limbs and at least half of a brain. I don't know the other one, The other half seems touch and go, but it's all there. So fine.
Kate: It sounds like you've just gotten more comfortable with discomfort almost like that. Yeah. I think so much of it is that we don't wanna be uncomfortable,
Scaachi Koul: But that's, that's all being alive is you're saying anything else to it. Yeah. You're just negotiating gradations of misery. And if you can do that and find pockets of pleasure and joy in discomfort, that's pretty good. I don't think you're gonna get better than that. I don't know anybody who has better than that in every way. Everybody I know who has kids is like, Oh, it sucks. But then they say something so cute and it's like <laugh>, it makes it, it's all worth it. But that's what it is. Everything is misery. So I'll find a couple of things in between that isn't, and I'll see if I can make things better for somebody else. Maybe in the meantime. That's about the extent of my own responsibility, I think I'm not gonna be able to make everything great constantly.
Doree: No, and I mean that puts a lot of unreasonable pressure on yourself. It's not our job to be constantly making everyone's lives around us. Amazing people are responsible for their own feelings. Yeah. I did think it's funny that you were talking about nothing mattering because that was the title of your book of essays that came out in 2017, which I loved. I gave it to several friends. It's just such a great book. I'm so excited that you're coming out with a new book. Slowly
Scaachi Koul: Doree <laugh>, very slowly.
Doree: I know how that goes. Safe
Scaachi Koul: Space to Kate. Yeah.
Doree: <laugh>. Can you tell us anything about what's, what's gonna be in the new book?
Scaachi Koul: Yeah, I mean I sold it three or four years ago, a long time. And I had some sort of a draft, a functional draft. It's another essay collection, it's nonfiction. And then my marriage ended and so I threw it away and I started over. So the original version of the book, which it was still guided by that is about conflict and about my predilection for it. I'm really good at it and I really do like it. And I think there's a lot of value in conflict. But I think in the last couple of years I've also seen how it is destructive and not productive and not helpful. And where I think I needed to temper myself and where other people needed to temper themselves with me. So that's what I'm doing. So we'll see. Maybe it'll work or maybe it won't. I don't know. See, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I never write it. Nobody will know. <laugh> <laugh>. I mean that's the other thing about your thirties I feel like is you of look around, you're like, Oh, nobody's looking at me. Nobody cares what I do. I can do whatever. It doesn't matter. But
Doree: I mean think that is one of the big takeaways of adulthood. It's like, oh, it's not all about me. <laugh>. Yeah, it really doesn't
Scaachi Koul: Matter about me. No one's, no one's thinking about you. Yeah. And that can be, I think for some people, a really unbearable recognition of their own, Oh, I'm just a speck on this big blue balloon. Or it just means you can kind of do whatever you want. Cause it doesn't really matter <affirmative>, but whatever. If somebody, I guess has something to say about my lack of productivity on my second book, I suppose my only question would be, do you have nothing else going on? Yeah, it it's, That's fine. Yeah, totally.
Kate: Can I ask a question about conflict as someone who is the exact opposite of you? Sure. Hearing you talk about loving conflict and being good at it, that's like <affirmative> makes me freeze up in fear because I hate conflict. But I've tried to get better about being in conflict. And it sounds like you've been working on
Scaachi Koul: Having less.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. What is that kind of self work been like? How do you even approach that?
Scaachi Koul: I mean, I'm trying to be calmer and I'm trying to pick my battles. I think I spent, and I don't regret, don't regret any fight that I've got in honestly. I think it was all worth it. But I think it was a kind of energy I don't have anymore. I don't have the energy to fight with every single ding dong on the internet anymore. I just, I'm busy. I don't feel like it. And I think when I was younger that was energy worthwhile to expand out onto strangers. I don't feel that way anymore. I'm trying to be a little gentler with how I deal with people like you, Kate. I have lots of friends who are not, they can't fight. And sometimes they kind of get into it with me and it's not a fair fight. And I gotta remember, gotta remember to maybe use a lighter touch.
But I mean it's also, I come by, honestly, my whole family's like that. My niece is that 12 and she is, I'm scared of her. It's already starting. I told her mother, I was like, Listen, as soon as she turns 14, I'm out. You can call me again when she's like 28, I'm not sticking around for any of that. Exactly. Our side of the family. I was like, You're doomed. And she's like, I know. I don't know what I'm gonna do either. I'm like, Good luck. See ya, <laugh>. But yeah, it's weird. Quiet work. It's work I've had to think about in lots of my relationships and how my enjoyment of conflict affects other people. Cause I can have a fight with somebody that's a drag out and then the next day it's fine cuz that's how my entire family functions. Other people hold it and I didn't really realize that they hold it for a long time. You seem like someone who holds it and you think about it and it Yeah, it sits with you. Doesn't sit with yours.
Kate: Yeah. I would,
Scaachi Koul: I'll forgotten more fights than I think I've got into today. I, It just doesn't sit with me like that. Yeah, maybe it should.
Kate: Maybe I
Scaachi Koul: That's sa I'm,
Kate: It sounds freeing.
Doree: I think I'm more like you. I mean as Kate knows, I don't shy away from conflict and it has been something that I've had to work on at times. And actually Kate has actually been a model sometimes for me of how to not turn something into a huge conflict that doesn't have to be, Yeah.
Scaachi Koul: I'm trying to steer away sort of from the more petty, unnecessary ones. But that said, I will still snap someone's neck off if I have to. I just, Yeah, don't really have to.
Doree: Oh totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Scaachi Koul: I think also when you are young, and for me I was brown and of the environments I was being raised in, I had to sort of show my teeth a lot. Otherwise people were gonna treat me like an asshole. And that's why I don't regret it. Cause I was right. I was right. Yeah. And I'm still right most of the time. But I'm also at a point now where I just don't have to do that anymore. And it took me a minute to realize I don't have to, People are kind of leaving me alone, <laugh> in lots of ways. I don't have shitty friends in my life anymore that I have to deal with. That's done at work. I don't have in generally speaking, I would say I don't really have those sorts of people in my airspace anymore. No one's really in my ear telling me what to do. So that's fine. I'm single so I don't have to, I'm not dealing with any, any men my other than my father who is 72 and will fight with me until I'm dead. Cuz he's gonna outlive me. I'm sure. So I just accepted, I've accepted the places where I have to do that and the places where I don't, I'm trying to do it less and less.
Kate: I have to ask a random question because you took a sip out of a water
Scaachi Koul: Bottle. Listen, I've had teenage girls stop me on the street being like, Where did you get it?
Kate: Is this amazing? I don't know. I've never seen anything like this before.
Scaachi Koul: I think I found it on TikTok and it's probably a bad Amazon purchase but I can't help it.
Kate: It is a square shaped SeeThrough water bottle. It looks a big perfu model. Yes. Oh and a per perfu
Scaachi Koul: Bottle. I know. It
Doree: Kinda looks like something that you would put those little plastic seahorses in. Do you know what I'm talking? I dunno
Scaachi Koul: What you're
Kate: Talking about. I do. This is a real eighties reference.
Doree: Think this is a Yeah, it's a real
Kate: Age sea
Doree: Monkeys thing. Okay. Yeah. Sea monkeys. Yes, exactly. Thank you.
Scaachi Koul: I just missed the boat on that one I think. But yeah. Isn't it fun <laugh>? I swear ITSM telling you it's the most Gen Z thing. I have children Stop me on the street. I love it. And you're like, what is that?
Kate: Oh, I can see how every <laugh>, every cool gen Zer would be like, my
Scaachi Koul: God. Yeah. I'm wearing my big baggy Gen Z fit my tiny little shorts and my see through water bottle. I'm the coolest girl in the world. I've gotta tell you. It's really looking out for me.
Kate: You are technically a millennial, is
Scaachi Koul: That right? Yeah, I'm a mid a 91 millennial, so I'm a mid range. Yeah.
Kate: Not a test. I'm so fascinated by the ways in which Gen Z is taking, taking millennials to task in such a strong way. And as someone who's Gen X, I'm just kind of floating above it. Wow. This
Scaachi Koul: Is fascinating. But you are also forgetting that we did this to you. So it's like just the nature of this,
Kate: This is the cycle.
Scaachi Koul: Oh yeah, this is cycle. Yeah, we were did it to you. Gen X was also kind of like, okay,
<laugh>. Yeah, but so millennial. But yeah, but also, listen, hold on. Gen Xers really like to rewrite history about exactly how much influence you guys did or didn't. So it's a very Gen X response to be like, we were fine with it. Cause in the nineties we didn't care about anything. We were so disaffected. That's not true. You guys all got upset because you were having kids at the same time and you were like, Oh no. Our supremacy as the cool generation is ending, that's what happens. That's what's happening to millennials right now. We're all starting to have kids. We're all getting older. Yeah. Nothing we do is interesting. They're blaming us for the housing market's. Sure. I don't know. I didn't own anything but <laugh> the same thing. So that's fine. I listen, I'm well beyond Gen Z at this point. Again, my niece is Jen Alpha. I'm scared of those kids.
Kate: Mine too. My kids are Jen Alpha.
Scaachi Koul: I scared kids and if one of those kids ever speaks to me, other than what I am related to, I am building a raft. I'm taking to the sea and I'm never coming back. Those are the kids I'm afraid of. Gen Z's terrifying in their own way, but they're already getting older <laugh>. So now I'm worried about these little rats. Yeah, I don't need them. And then I really don't understand them at all. I don't know what they're gonna be doing or what they're gonna be watching. I have no idea what kind of world they're gonna inherit. Like Gen Z is nihilistic enough, but they're going to college and they're go, they're starting to get into the doldrums of being a person. Every generation has to look at the world and be like, Oh, it's broken, but I still have to pay rent. Yeah, you do. <affirmative>. So it, there's a shift happening. So they're starting to go through the shift, which is why they're yelling at us, which we deserve. We did it the same to you. I remember doing it 10 years ago now I don't because my bones hurt.
Kate: <laugh>. <laugh> got those achy bones. Well, shifting gears once again, we do like to ask everybody who comes on the show about skincare routines, <affirmative>. Because why not? And you did mention that you are a new
Scaachi Koul: Face user. I'm
Kate: A new face user. Yeah. Do you have any other skincare products that you love?
Scaachi Koul: I'm kind of a drugstore, skincare person. I very much believe that a lot of skincare is unfortunately genetic and then medical and hormonal <affirmative>. So I think there's actually very little I can do in terms of intervention. And I'm really lucky, speaking of my mother, she's got great skin. So I feel like I've inherited a lot of good genes. I use a retinol a couple times a week. I double cleanse at night. I use the Neutrogena anti acne wash cause I'm still getting pimples. Cause I'm seven and I'm trying to think if I use anything in particular. I wear a lot of sunscreen. I think sunscreen and water, frankly, the things that help in terms of the aging components, <affirmative>, The rest is genes. There's really not a lot you can do. And hormones. You gotta get your hormones checked. I regret to inform you that I'm in my forties and I still get pimples. Yeah. Oh I, I'm sure. This is just what it will be for me until my fifties. Cause I think that's what it was for my mother, frankly. It's very annoying. I, I've accepted that. But it gives me a youthful exuberance. I think. I was on a reporting trip in Florida the other day and a woman asked me how old I was and I was like, I'm 31. She's like, You look like a baby. I'm like, Thank you <laugh>.
I was at a Waffle house. I was like, I didn't think I was gonna have such a nice experience at a Waffle
Kate: House. Wow. That was a Waffle House. Convers. It
Scaachi Koul: Was Waff House. Yeah, it was a Waffle House conversation. We were sitting at the bar together. Then she told me about how much she loved Rhonda Santas. It was
Kate: A rough day. Oh boy.
Scaachi Koul: It
Kate: Was a real, That took a time. Youre
Scaachi Koul: A rollercoaster of emotions.
Kate: Well I was just gonna ask, as a native Canadian, if you have any favorite Canadian skincare brands. Because when I finally got to Canada and I went into a Shoppers, it was entering Oh, Shoppers. It was like heaven. It's like, I think I amuse. Yeah. Oh God, I don't even remember now. This was pre pandemic, but I went to a Shoppers in Toronto and they had French brands. So that was exciting. But then there were specific Canadian skincare brands and I remember I bought makeup wipes from one of them and I had never heard of them. And it was just thrilling.
Scaachi Koul: Possibly. Yeah.
There's a brand called Quo or something there that I have a lot of stuff from them. The shoppers are very fancy here now. They've all become very fancy and they have a huge makeup section. It's like it's going into an alta. They have a designer section and they always have a section for Laroche Poe. Oh the best products. There's a press on nail company called Helix or something that they sell at Shoppers. It's really, really good. Those nails last like a month. If you leave them alone Quo has some good makeup. I think Joe Fresh actually has good lipstick that they sell at Shoppers. I'm more of a makeup person. I don't really think about skincare as much, but I buy a lot of makeup. Unfortunately.
Kate: You're a,
Scaachi Koul: Not that I wear it. I'm not wear even wearing any right now. <laugh>. I feel like
Kate: I have seen a lot of photos of you in a red lip. Are you
Scaachi Koul: A red lip? We a lot. I wear, yes. I'm a red lip person. Yes. Yeah. I always have You do a red lip. So, Well it's cuz I got a big mouth Doree. There's a lot of real estate. There's a lot of, There's room <laugh>. Yeah. I just bought the House labs. She's got these high ultra pigmented little things. They're like for your whole, you can do whatever you want with them. I use them for lipstick. They're crazy good. And they don't
Kate: That's Lady Gaga, right?
Scaachi Koul: <affirmative>. She started selling it in Sephora now and before she was selling it through Amazon and it wasn't working. And so they sold it to, I guess for Distro through Sephora. But it's really good. That stuff's good. There's this Indian brand called Kofi that just started selling in Sephora. That's really good. They do eyeliner and they have a really good concealer line. And then Col, K U L F I. Kfi is ice cream in Hindi. And then what else did I buy? And Rare Beauty is really good too, that Selena Gomez is line.
Kate: So
Scaachi Koul: People have said this, It is really good. Her stuff is shockingly pigmented to the point that you'll never buy it again. I have a blush from them that it's a miscalculation. I was like, you should make this half the size cause I'm never buying it again cuz it's so much. And then there's another brand by Patrick Star, who's like a beauty influencer called One Size oh slash s. And they have one of the best black eyeliners I've ever purchased. It's really good. Oh yeah, one. And bought it on a whim. Didn't think much about it. Just saw it at before and was like, Whatever. I'll try it. It's so good.
Kate: This is a hot tip. I've never even heard of this line.
Scaachi Koul: I know. I hadn't either. I just didn't even know who owned it. And then I looked it up later. It was so good. So stuff's great. Yeah.
Kate: Oh, we've got a lot of new things to try. This was a great list. I
Scaachi Koul: Know. Yeah. All my other recommendations are ridiculous. I was on, last time I did a podcast like this. I did Caroline Moss's.
Kate: Oh
Scaachi Koul: G Thanks. And she was like, What do you wanna recommend? I was like, I really like this stool that I used to poop
Kate: <laugh>. Like,
Scaachi Koul: Ok, come on now. <laugh>.
Kate: It called The Little Thing You put Atty Potty. Yeah. Squatty Potty. I love the Squatty Potty.
Scaachi Koul: Listen forefront of it. I told her about it four years ago and she's like, This is what you wanna talk about. I was like, Yes, this is what I wanna talk about.
Kate: I support this.
Scaachi Koul: That's my legacy <laugh>. And then I can give you nail recommendations. Cause I do my own nails. But that's kind of it.
Kate: I mean, yes, please. If someone's gonna do their own nails at home, what do you
Scaachi Koul: Buy? I don't buy gel cause I don't like gel. Cause I think it actually damages the surface of your nails. But there's a brand called SES Feet. And the rebuild base coats really good. Your nails will be upsettingly sturdy. And then there's a SES feet top coat. There's one called SES Feet gel that gives a gel top coat sort of thing. It's really good. And then they have a se feet top coat. The regular one which you put on when the color is still wet. Oh. So it means that your whole pet manicure will take five seconds cuz then it hardens all of it together. It's really good. They sell that. They sell se feet in target now.
Kate: Oh, okay. This is another line I've never heard of. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> se.
Doree: Oh, I used to use on my nails because it does dry fast. <laugh> very fast. Yeah. Yeah. That's it's whole thing. <affirmative>. Well, this was truly a delight. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming on our show. Where can our listeners find you and where can they listen to your podcast?
Scaachi Koul: You can find me on Twitter or on Instagram at sachi. S C A A C H I. Let's a silent letters in there for you to try to put in the right place. And you can listen to Scam Influencers anywhere you get your podcast, Apple Music, wherever you like to. Apple Music, is that right? No Apple Podcasts. There it is. Or you can subscribe to Wonder Plus and you'll get it a week early.
Kate: Thank you so much, Sachi. This was so great to have you on the show. Thank
Doree: You.
Kate: I really feel like Sachi infused a real younger person vibe to the podcast today, which I really kind of needed.
Doree: But it's also nice because she's not fully Gen Z. She's a millennial. But she also, I think, I hate when people are like, they're an old soul. But she, and we talked about this a little bit, but she always, I think, had a sort of older person outlook,
Kate: <affirmative> <affirmative>
Doree: With a younger person's perspective. I don't know she's just so great.
Kate: I really loved getting to talk to her. And also, I truly just wanna note that the water bottle that she busted out on our chat is the coolest water bottle I've ever seen.
Doree: So <laugh>
Kate: Cool. So cool.
Doree: This
Kate: Is what it means to be cool.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, seems a little impractical <laugh>, but Yes.
Kate: But that's like, makes it cool.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: My giant mom flu insulated mug thing. There's nothing very cool about it.
Doree: <affirmative> <affirmative> <affirmative>. Well, Kate, did you write someone a letter?
Scaachi Koul: I did.
Doree: I was like, Oh
Kate: My gosh. I know. I was like, this is my intention this week and I am going to do it. And what was funny is I was writing it. I wrote to one of my best friends from college, Theresa. And I was like, She's gonna think I'm so this is gonna be very out of left field. I don't think she's gonna think I'm weird. But I don't ever write letters to my friends. But also I love her so much and I miss her. I haven't seen her in so long because of Covid. And I'm gonna get to see her next month hopefully if all goes well. So I was just excited to write her one. And I think I might write another one this week. It was also nice just to write one, not be like, I'm gonna write my eight best friend's letters. Cause then you kind of get overwhelmed.
Doree: So Yes, yes, yes.
Kate: And this week my intention is to try to get a couple sessions in my infrared sauna blanket.
Doree: Oh, this is exciting. This is exciting.
Kate: Anthony. I love doing things around bedtime that just horrify and traumatize my husband. Like my l e d light map. This is a new one. I should do my light mask in the sauna blanket. He will really, He'll probably what he might leave. That might be the limit. Well,
Doree: Goodbye and good rids.
Kate: 14 years married. But the infrared sauna blanket is what ends <laugh>. Anyway. Tell me about your intention. Last week you were gonna put those legs up the wall.
Doree: I was, And I
Kate: Feel like we could hang up from recording this and you could go do it right now.
Doree: What part of the problem is I don't have a ton of wall space.
Kate: I get it.
Doree: Do There is a spot in my office that if I cleared away some Detroit that is on the floor, I would have some space. But as of this second, I don't. And I think that was what was holding. I would just be like, Oh, I wanna put my legs up the wall. And I'd be like, And where I did it with Henry was in Henry's room. And I would typically be thinking about this when he was asleep. And as much as I wanted to sneak into his room to do legs up the wall, not worth it to potentially disrupt my child's plea
Kate: <laugh>.
Doree: So I did not do it, but I still want to do it. I'll put it that way. All right. I'm going to make an effort to do
Kate: It. Add it to the
Doree: List. Excuse me. I will add it to the list. And then this week, Kate, as you know, we are in the midst of pretty brutal heat wave here in la.
Kate: Oh my goodness.
Doree: So my intention is to try to keep my cool literally and just mentally, because I think that I always find that challenging when it gets really hot is not becoming a monster
Kate: <laugh>. Yep, I do. And we're talking hot. We're talking where I live, it's gonna be like 107, 108 degrees.
Doree: And where I live, it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be like 95, which is still hot.
Kate: It's
Doree: Hot. It's hot. Yeah. So let's see. It's changed slightly, but yeah. Okay. So it's gonna be the hottest. Right now they're predicting, in five days it's gonna be 99. So that's hot. And where Kate lives is gonna be even hotter <affirmative>. So, Oh my gosh. Kate, you're getting up to 1 0 7.
Kate: Yes. I was not lying. It gets this, I mean, it's happened before. It's not that I'm not kind of totally used to it. Totally. But it sucks. I mean my, my children at school, they can't do anything because so much of their school stuff is outside. So yeah, my mine did not let my daughter bike to school today. Cause it's gonna be 1 0 4 this afternoon.
Doree: Yay. Yay. Yeah. So anyway, so that is my intent for this week.
Kate: Perfect. All right, well thank you everyone. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by in your two friends, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer. And it's produced, edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thanks for listening.
Doree: Bye.