Kate and Doree both struggle with how to figure it all out and the best ways to cope. Then, multimedia artist and Wild Unknown tarot deck creator Kim Krans joins the show to talk about how to bring mystical and spiritual practices into the mundane rituals of life, why most of her self-care revolves around the temperature of her body, and how a devastating and disappointing gallery show led to the creation of the beloved Wild Unknown Oracle series.

Mentioned in this Episode

• Help us reach $20,000 by donating to the Forever35 Giving Circle!

• Davines Love Smoothing Conditioner

• Wild Unknown Tarot Cards

• Wild Unknown Alchemy Oracle Deck

  • Pre-order to be invited to an exclusive workshop with Kim Krans!

• Wild Unknown Animal Spirit Deck

• Wild Unknown Archetypes Deck

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Transcript

Kate: Hello, welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,

Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir

Kate: And we're not experts.

Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums

Kate: Before we get into it. A friendly reminder that you can visit our website forever 35 podcast for links to everything we mention on the show. Follow us on Twitter at forever35pod Instagram at forever35podcast. And you can join the forever35 Facebook group where the password for entry is the word serums.

Doree: Indeed, it is. Um, you can also shop our favorite products at shopmyshelf.us/forever35. You can sign up for the newsletter at forever35podcast.com/newsletter. Kate sidebar about this.

Kate: Yes.

Doree: I feel like we have never gotten more feedback about a product than the product you recommended in the newsletter.

Kate: I know I, this week I'm fascinated by it. It's by other people who use it.

Doree: Yeah. Well, and what's interesting too, is that you don't even use it.

Kate: No, it's a product that my daughter uses. It's a Divenus dev. I don't even know how to say that hair brand name out loud. It's their love shampoo and conditioner. And it's like changed my daughter's hair. It's been wild. Maybe I should try it for myself. I don't know. I've never even tried it, but she's claimed it.

Doree: I love it. Um,

Kate: Meanwhile, I'm using my Kirkland brand hair, shampoo and conditioner.

Doree: Um, I'm using our pod sponsor prose.

Kate: Oh, I do like my prosr. I have a bunch in my, uh, in my shower. I have, I have a sponsors like Vegamore in there and prose, and then I just have my Kirkland.

Doree: Hey, you gotta, you gotta keep the Kirkland around.

Kate: I can't say no to Kirkland.

Doree: No. Um, if you would like to reach us and tell us about your shampoo, we, uh, are reachable by voicemail or text at 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9. And you can email us, remind everyone, our giving and we

Kate: That's amazing. Yeah, you all are work so awesome.

Doree: It's so it's so cool. So we have over $12,000. Our goal is to get to 20,000. So hopefully you can help us get there and choose the state that we're gonna focus on. And yeah, it's

Kate: Just, let's some money where our mouths are.

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative> well, well, well, so my podcast conversation piece is that for the last 24 hours I've been singing. I think I'm depressed in my head to the tune of you're simply the best, because I do think I'm depressed. <laugh> but I've just been saying, I think I'm depressed.

Doree: Oh my God. That's genius.

Kate: Then I can't think of anything else for this parody song,

Doree: More depressed than all the rest.

Kate: See, this is why I need you in my life. <laugh> uh, yeah, I've been really down this week. Um, I think I'm, I think I actually emotionally get very depressed right before my menstrual cycle starts. That's like a newer PMs experience in the last couple of years, but boy, I have been just down this week, down in the dumps and it turns out I'm not alone.

Doree: No, I also have been feeling depressed and I told Matt's Matt's thing is that like only one of us can be depressed

Kate: At time. That's a good rule, but it's hard. It's hard when it's out of your hands, essentially.

Doree: Exactly. Um, and since he's, he gets depressed more than I do. Mm. That when I get depressed, it's like, like,

Kate: Oh gosh.

Doree: Um, yeah. I mean, I, for me, it's also like overlayed with money anxiety. Yeah. So I'm just like, Ugh, this is like a not great combination. Like between just like everything in the news, everything that continues to come out about the Uvalde shooting, I just like is very hard for me to deal with and hard for me not to fixate on. So there's that. And then just like, I dunno, it's like a law.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, like the trauma of the news cycle.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: Mixed with whatever you're dealing with in your own personal life.

Doree: Yep.

Kate: It has felt hard to find glimpses of anything positive.

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kate: I mean, well,

Doree: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's like, but then, but then I get into that cycle of like, but ultimately like I have a good life, you know what I mean?

Kate: Yes.

Doree: And like, I have a son that I'm crazy about and you know, just like all those things, but then I am like, but I, I don't feel great.

Kate: Yeah. I, I know I, I have that same response too, where it's like, I'm come to this depression from a place of extreme privilege and where nothing is quote, like truly wrong with my life right now. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, which almost makes it more challenging.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: To kind of even realize what's going on. Like, I'm just like, I can't motivate to do anything. Like what is wrong with me for days? I was like, what is happening? Mm-hmm <affirmative> I'm sleeping all the time. And then I was like, oh,

Doree: See, I can't sleep.

Kate: Oh, fascinating. I can't get up.

Doree: Hmm.

Kate: Together we <laugh>.

Doree: Wow. We are nailing together.

Kate: We are,

Doree: We are nailing life.

Kate: So, when you get depressed and if you're in a depressive cycle, do you adjust your meds? Do you talk to somebody? Do you like, do you try to do one thing that kind of, you feel like helps? How do you, how do you, how are you or do you do nothing because that's also a fair route to take?

Doree: Well, I think my instinct sometimes is like, I need to like blow up my life. Like I need to change everything in my life, which is not a great instinct. And I'm trying to sort of like balance that. Um, and, but then I think that's like my way of trying to like assert control over the Situation

Kate: Oh, fascinating. Okay.

Doree: And I think that's just like, that's part of what's going on now too. So I'm like, I, I don't know what to do. Like I dunno what to do.

Kate: Well, it's interesting. I feel like one of the reasons we started this podcast was that things in the world at the time back then also felt so chaotic and out of our control mm-hmm <affirmative> that sometimes felt like the only thing we could control was like, what do I wash my face with?

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: Totally. Doesn't make anything better. But I, I do feel like that was the spirit behind.

Doree: Yes. This, what do you like, what do you do?

Kate: Well, I have to tell you, I, and I don't wanna spoil our guests, um, self care practice that she shares with us at the top of our interview, but I did her self care practice today. Oh. Um, just to try it out.

Doree: Okay.

Kate: Should I reveal what I did?

Doree: Yes.

Kate: So I, I, I had to take a shower like before we recorded our podcast and I was in there and I was like, thinking about how this was, what we were gonna talk about. And then I was like, oh, well, we interviewed Kim Krans and she takes a cold shower. And a, and she talked about how impactful that's been and kind of resetting her nervous system. And, you know, we've and we've had previous guests. So like UA talked about like cold swimming, Annie crayon from eyewitness beauty, who was a past guest with Axelrod. She also does cold showers. So I was, I was in the shower, very hot washing the conditioner, outta my hair. And then I was like, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try it. So I set a timer on my watch for one minute and I made it cold and I just stood there.

Doree: Ooh.

Kate: And it was hard. I, uh, recited mantras, I learned in my yoga teacher training just to like get myself focused on something. I felt actually kind of refreshed after to be honest, it felt kind of good.

Doree: Wow. Okay.

Kate: And I don't think I went very cold. Like it was not ice cold. I would say it was, you know, I'm trying to break it in here and I just did a minute, but I don't, I was intrigued. I, I, you know, I'll try anything I'm already at like my max Wellbutrin dose. So I dunno. So that did help. I thought that was kind of interesting. And the other thing is that I try to just, you know, lean into the things that I enjoy that make me feel good.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: Tonight I'm gonna watch fire island with a couple of friends. Ooh. Have you watched that yet? I haven't watched it yet.

Kate: I feel like that's gonna really be a pick me up.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: You know, and I'm, I don't know. Talk to my therapist. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> talk to my therapist about it. Those are my plans. Maybe talk to my psychiatrist. We'll see how, how this pans out.

Doree: I feel like you have like a better plan than I do.

Kate: <laugh> well, thank you. How long have you been feeling this way?

Doree: Mm, like a month.

Kate: Hmm. That's a long time.

Doree: Yeah. It's not great, but it's like really? I think it's really kind of like amped up in the last couple weeks

Kate: Just for financial reasons. Just the,

Doree: Yeah. The, the, the money anxiety is like really getting to me

Kate: So well, and it doesn't, it doesn't help that, uh, we are experiencing inflation and that's terrifying. Yeah.

Doree: I think that's also, I do think that's also part of it is like, every time I fill up my car, it's like $90. <laugh>

Kate: I know.

Doree: I'm just like, what the fuck?

Kate: Oh, I know. You know, you

Doree: Know, like bread has gotten more expensive. Like literally everything is more expensive and it just like, I don't know. I think seeing like that in, in my face every day, is it just ma when I'm already worried about money, just like, yeah. Makes me be like, Ugh. <laugh>

Kate: Yeah, I totally

Doree: Get it. You know,

Kate: I went to buy a big thing of strawberries the other day and it was $14 and I like threw it back. Yes. It was a large strawberry container. Wow. I was at a whole foods. So already we're talking about some high prices being high. Oh, $14.

Doree: No, that's crazy. That's a lot.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think you're not, you're probably not the only one experiencing that. The added stress of what is happening right now.

Doree: Yeah. So

Kate: How are we, how are we caring for ourselves through This?

Doree: Well, I mean, last night I did do a half hour restorative yoga.

Kate: Ooh.

Doree: And that was

Kate: On, on Peloton.

Doree: On the Peloton app? Yeah. My old pal Aditi.

Kate: Oh, I love a DT. Just the fact that you did it is so good.

Speaker 3: Mm.

Kate: You know, like you, you stepped up, you got on the mat, as they say,

Doree: I got the, I think it's overlaid with like my fear that I'm like washed up creatively.

Kate: Oh, let's get into this. Okay. That's fascinating. What, what is making you feel that way? Are you just kind of worried?

Doree: Yeah. I mean, I think it's like, you know, like my book not coming out in paperback yeah. Was like a blow. And I don't know, I just, I've been trying to like work on this new book, but like everything is, I just, I like just, I think I'm so concerned about money that I like am focusing on other things.

Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative> and then I it's, like, I think I'm just feeling like in a rut it's like, and, and I think it's like my fear of like, well, maybe I'm just not like, I don't have anything interesting to say anymore. Maybe I never did. You know,

Kate: This is pretty heavy.

Doree: Yeah. Sorry. You did. Yeah.

Kate: I don't, I don't mean that it's heavy for the show. I mean, these are heavy feelings to carry.

Doree: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kate: Like that's, that is a, that's a lot of, I don't know. That's a lot of weight on you.

Doree: Yeah. It is.

Kate: Well, you know, I am definitely here if you want support kind of processing and talking through these things.

Doree: Thank you, Kate. I appreciate that.

Kate: And I think, you know, obviously I'm going to say to you, I don't think you're washed up and I do think you have a lot

Doree: To say that's

Kate: That's, but it doesn't matter.

Doree: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: That's it doesn't matter what someone else says.

Doree: You know what. I think I also, like, it's interesting. I do feel like I can kind of, I can sometimes like chart my depression with almost on social media, because I, I think I do the opposite of what some people do. Like I think when some people get depressed, they start posting a lot.

Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I've seen that.

Doree: And, and I stop posting and cuz I just feel I'm like I have nothing to post. I have nothing to say. There's nothing interesting. Who cares? It's very nihilistic. Mm it's a little realistic. So I think that's like, that's just kind of like where I'm at right now.

Kate: Well, what is scintillating update? You and I are both depressed.

Doree: Yeah. Know other thing it's like talking about being depressed is so boring.

Kate: I know it's like talking about your dreams.

Doree: Yes. And I think that's why I haven't brought it up because I'm just like, whoa, no one wants to hear this shit. It's like, save it for your therapist, you know? Yeah. That's me talking to myself. <laugh> um, so yeah,

Kate: I get it. I get it. But it also can feel good to just speak it out loud,

Doree: Speak my truth.

Kate: You gotta speak that truth, you know? Yeah. Or just, I think also cuz once you say it, it, hopefully you may find other people are feeling the same way and maybe that does help a little. I don't know, but It's really hard. Yeah. It's hard right now and it's just hard period.

Doree: Yeah, I think so.

Kate: Well I do think we have a really interesting conversation coming up for people to listen to.

Doree: I agree.

Kate: We spoke with Kim Krans. She is an artist and there is a good chance you have seen her wild, unknown tarot deck or wild, unknown archetypes she's made. She's made such beautiful mystical things. So Kim has her BFA in drawing from Cooper union and MFA in mixed media and an ma in psychology and creativity. Wow.

Doree: I mean, damn

Kate: She has studied yoga in depth as well as shamanism. And she teaches events and workshops that quote activate the forces of creativity and radical transformation through art, meditation, mysticism, and movement.

Doree: Maybe I need one of her workshops.

Kate: I mean she's, she's a very thoughtful person to, to talk to. Yes. I thought like she was really, it was very interesting. Like she really think thought about every question and is clearly like the creative is also very spiritual for her. I think mm-hmm <affirmative> I mean, I might be projecting, but that was kind of what I took away from our conversation and her te decks. Like, and her other decks are just beautiful. She, she has a very hypnotic voice. She does like, it was so soothing. I think you and I both like relaxed, our shoulders just like dropped down our backs as we talked to her. Mm-hmm <affirmative> all right, well let's take a break. And when we come back, you will hear from Kim.

Kate: Um, well Kim, welcome to forever 35. We're both really glad you're here. I think. And I have both been fans of your work for a while. So this was very exciting to get, to bring you into the, the folds of the podcast.

Kim Krans: I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Kate: So we like to start every episode with the same question for all our guests. Um, and what that is is that we would love to know a current self care practice that is meaningful for you in your life. And that can truly be anything

Kim Krans: As per usual. I wanna give you like three things <laugh> instead of one thing we

Kate: Can handle, we can handle three things by all means. Give us all three.

Kim Krans: Well, I've been really into cold showers these days. Um, it sounds so simple and you know, PE cold plunges are a big thing right now, but you need like a membership or a big tub and some ice and all that stuff. It's a bit of a production, but I've been finding that three minutes in the cold shower. It really clears my brain from any kind of fog. There's so much confusion right now and overwhelm and I find it's a really great way to sort of dispel any tendencies towards feeling defeated or depressed or confused or foggy or lost. And it gets me back in my body really quickly. I don't need to go anywhere. It's affordable and accessible as all who have water. So I really love that practice. And you know what it's amazing about it is it seems impossible. Like you stare at the cold water, like no way I can't do that. I can't <laugh> and then you do it and you're like, oh yeah, I can. And there's this amazing feeling. That's almost equivalent to like 35, 40 minutes on a dance floor where you're suddenly like, oh yeah, this is me. I can just dance the whole night away. And I get that after just a couple minutes with the cold cold water. Oh, it

Kate: Sounds, it sounds almost like euphoric.

Kim Krans: It's super euphoric because um, the blood is sent to the surface of the body. The body actually starts to warm itself after 90 seconds or so, or two minutes. So you, you actually get warm and radiant. So you come out with like a glow and you come out with strength and vigor. You're not cold and defeated and shivering. It's like this burst of energy and it's really, um, it's a lot bang for your buck. So just know that it will seem impossible every single time. <laugh> I, I do it every morning and every morning it feels, um, like it's not, not doable.

Kate: I love the way that you and, and I haven't forgotten that you said you have three, cuz I'm dying to know the other two <laugh>. But just with this practice, I love that the way that you connected it to kind of processing and moving through the world, which right now feels especially heavy. Um, I'm wondering, how long have you been doing this on a daily basis? Is it something that you came to during this COVID pandemic or is it something that you've done for a decade?

Kim Krans: Well, it's a, quite an old practice. I mean, I grew up in the forests of Michigan where there's a lot of Scandinavian folk and they have saunas and in the winter and you go in the sauna and then you jump in the snow bank and you go back and forth. So I grew up like taking saunas with my grandma and my parents and we would do some equivalent of that or jump in the lake or what have you. So in a sense, I've been doing it for a long time, but especially during COVID I got really into it because it was so confusing. I mean it's still confusing <laugh>

Kate: Yeah,

Kim Krans: Yeah. Um, but it was a good way to be able to do an ice plunge with no production and without leaving the house,

Kate: How did you get into it?

Kim Krans: It's practiced in kundalini yoga. One of their morning practices is to do, um, dry brushing you dry brush the body with a, a, a really simple brush. It gets the lymphatic system moving and then you put some oil on your body and then you hop in the cold water. The whole thing takes about five and a half minutes. And it, I mean, just to talk superficially for a second, in terms of like beauty and radiance, it's like a mega boon. The whole lymphatic system gets moving. The whole circulatory system gets moving. And I think most importantly it does give me this feeling like anything is possible. You know, it, it kind of puts you in that position of, I can't do this and then you, you do it and you, you have a kind of victory, a small, but mighty victory over the cold water. And it's pretty special

Kate: In addition to cold plunging. Cuz you did mention that you had three that came to the top of your mind. Are there any other self self care practices that you feel called to share with us? Because this is very illuminating and we live for this stuff.

Kim Krans: Well, I like short and sweet and doable. Like you don't have to leave your house <laugh> yeah. It's really important. Um, and it's interesting because all of these three things have to do with the temperature of the body and that has so much to do with the elements and the power of these very elemental forces like, um, heat and water and air and fire. And you know, the, the, the five elements of our existence. So cold showers is utilizing one, one aspect of that. There's the water and it's, it happens to be like very, very cold. So that has an effect on the body. The, the second two things that I do also involve temperature and, um, breath of fire. I'll do like three minutes of breath of fire, which is the Naval pumping, um, with equal inhale and exhale. Um, so the breath is through the nose and the, and the abdomen is pulsing.

Kim Krans: It's pretty well known. It's done in so many different types of traditions, but it it's so powerful. And even just the name, thinking of it like, uh, alchemically stoking, the fire that's intelligent and within our Naval center is very, very helpful. And, and then I usually follow that with three minutes of either alternate and nostril breath or a sat breath, which is rolling the tongue and breathing in through like the taco. Yeah. If you can't do it, you can breathe through your teeth. You can. Yeah. And then you exhale through the nose and bringing the cooling very, uh, calming, soothing healing, exhale through the whole body. And so first we're activating the fire to get it more, uh, conscious and more, um, en liven and then bringing the cool air in it. It takes the energy that we just stimulated and pushes it through the body in a way that's really, uh, nourishing. Especially for this time it's almost summer solstice. The world feels like it's on fire and every angle. And so that cooling breath, the balancing and nurturing breath is really powerful. So those three things you can do them in. It's like 11, 12 minutes total, all three. And it's very, it's very good. Uh, grouping

Doree: Kim, I'd love to talk about the wild unknown. Um, a friend first gave me the deck. I think it was 2013. Um, when she came to visit me and I was just kind of immediately taken with it, um, and started, I, I don't do this anymore, but I did start kind of drawing a card daily. And it just was like this very important practice for me at a very specific time in my life. So I'm very grateful to you <laugh> um, for creating it. And I'd love to just kind of talk about the origin of it. I, I think I read that, um, the wild unknown was a website that you had to kind of showcase your art and artwork initially when you had a band. And, um,

Kim Krans: I think originally it was always a kind of moniker for my artwork. It wasn't associated with the band I was in at the time. Okay. Um, but I used it as a kind of self-publishing moniker. So at the time it sounds like if it was 2013, you had one of the very ver very first decks that came out. So I created the deck and I, I always feel like it's very important that people know this, I just printed it. I printed a thousand copies and, and then I printed a thousand more and a thousand more. And they, they kept selling through the website, which was called the wild, unknown, and I printed, distributed and shipped it, you know, solo for, um, it was four years of doing that before a publisher came on board and said, oh, we think this might be popular. <laugh>. So I, I just really, it's really important to point out that like, you know, the big, whatever they are, the big conglomerates in any industry don't necessarily know, or aren't ready to believe in the thing that isn't popular yet.

Kim Krans: Mm-hmm <affirmative>, and that can be really discouraging for people. If I would, I would've had to have waited if I was waiting for a publisher to put the deck out or believe in it. I would've had to have waited until there was some other new deck that came out that sort of paved the way. And it it's just a moment I look back on and I'm very grateful. Someone lent me. Um, I can't remember. It was like this nonprofit art, arts supporting company that lent me like $2,000 or something and to do the printing and then I paid them back. And that was how the whole thing began.

Doree: But what was the, what was kind of the impetus behind creating the deck in the first place?

Kim Krans: Oh, um, that's a whole other, I understood your question in terms of, um, production. The impetus was, it was a time in my life where I had a very open window. I had just kind of come out of, uh, making art for galleries in the New York art world. And I thought that that was gonna be my career. And the show that I had didn't do well at all. It was a really big gallery and I felt like my career was set for life. And, uh, the show didn't sell. And I had gone into debt making the show and I moved out of New York city. This was after about 13 years of living there. I, I just couldn't figure out how to be an artist there anymore. I moved to Philly. I lived in a renovated church and I had this bizarre window of time in this new place, living in a church, not many friends in Philly.

Kim Krans: I was like, what am I gonna make here? And I just thought, well, I've, I've always wanted to draw the tarot. And this seems like the time to do it. And at that time I had just started a, a very dedicated yoga practice. And in, in that I was, I wasn't just stretching my body. I was trying to understand energetics and heat and fire and inspiration and, um, mantra meditation. I kind of dove really deeply into that. At the same time I started drawing the cards and I think the two embedded into each other and I, the deck has an energy that is not, it's not just like me drawing it. There's something else was occurring at that time. And I think it's the point I was in my life and my openness to a new way of thinking and new way of being

Kate: What a powerful in of creative practice and its connection to and money and how all these things are intertwined. And that feeling of, I mean, I can't, I, it must have been, and I don't know, I don't wanna projected you, but it must have been in such a moment to have put yourself into this show and not have it sell and then to have to almost recalibrate. But to, to, I don't know, that's just such a, I'm inspired by what you, by, what, what you said and how you live through that moment of your life. Because I, it can be so devastating as people when we have these ex expectations tied to our creativity and then it isn't fulfilled in some way and then is fulfilled in a different way.

Kim Krans: Right. It's such a good point, Kate. I mean, looking back, I can speak about it quite eloquently, but just to be clear at that time, I was absolutely devastated. Yeah. I mean, wrecked, I could not make heads or tails out of anything in the world because my entire aim was to be a famous gallery artist in New York city. That's all I cared about

Kate: Was your tarott practice influential in kind of guiding you through that time. And maybe we could also just for people who are coming to tarot via this podcast for the first time in their lives, could you kind of explain, uh, what it is, and also just how, what your decks are. That's like 50 questions in one Kim, so I'll, I can repeat myself.

Kim Krans: Um, so at the time I was struggling to get into my tarot practice because I couldn't get excited about any of the imagery in a tarot deck. That was always the block. The obstacle for me and tarot was I don't like how these cards look. These are such mystical. Ideas are so huge. They're so beautiful. And I would read and read about it, but I could never find a deck that I liked. So that's when the obstacle becomes the motivator or the inspiration for the thing, which happens a lot in art. People don't talk about it that much, but the block can be the, the thing.

Kim Krans: And eventually I just said, well, I have to draw my own deck. And I didn't really intend for any of this to happen. But then I realized, oh, well, I'm gonna like this deck. And I think some of my friends are gonna like it too. And maybe they're friends. So that's when I started saying like, well, let's see if I can get this printed somewhere and make a box for it and I'll make a cover and let's see what happens. And, and the other part of your question was around what, what is the tarot? So, yeah, it's, it's a fascinating question. It doesn't have a simple answer, but it's basically a set of 78 cards that have a certain structure. There's four suits, which relate to the elements. And then there's 22 major Arcana cards. They're related to really huge sort of archetypal events in people's lives.

Kim Krans: You could say all the cards are related to archetypes and sort of run by archetypes, but the major Arcana is as they rightly named it major. So there's these big pivot, pivoting points in life. There's the death card, the lover's card now, justice, the world son and the moon, the big whammy, so to speak. And so my interest is in the pairing of image and word mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you, you pair the word justice with an image and those two things, the image and the word become greater than the sum of their parts. If you just were to hear the word justice, you get all these kind of loaded ideas. It's pretty heavy. Actually, if you just see the image, you're like, I don't know what is that of, you know, there's a scale or there's some, what am I looking at here? But you pair the two things together and suddenly the mind focuses and it gets it's very, as they would call it like psychoactive, you get a door, gets opened into memories, dreams, things you thought of associations in your life.

Kim Krans: So the psyche gets activated in a very precise way. You could say it's a kind of like psychic acupuncture. The cards can act like that little needles that go into the psyche at these different points. And they run through the different meridians of one's life to just stay with the metaphor here. And, and when you get a couple of cards together in a reading, then it really starts to speak. And so kind of no matter what your background is, or your belief systems are around, um, different practices, like the one can be activated just through their imagination and through their memories and end up having a kind of conversation or experience that's new and beyond the ordinary. I like to think of tarot as a doorway between the ordinary and the extraordinary. And, and when we turn a card over, we say yes to the doorway that leads us from one reality to the next.

Doree: Did you have, um, like, well, I guess, let back up, what was your first deck? And, um, do you have a deck that you, besides your own that you kind of see as, um, one that has inspired you?

Kim Krans: Mm, wow. My first deck was given to me, it was a classic weight deck given to me by a boyfriend and gave it to me in the car and we were driving and I was looking at it. And, uh, I was like, this is a bummer. I don't like these images. They don't feel right to me. And I put it in the pocket, you know, the pocket that's like below the elbow thing and your door in the, in the Car door. I put it there. I'll never forget that moment. That was years before I drew the deck. But I just remember sliding the yellow cover, you know, the box with the bright yellow background of the.

Kate: I know the exact one. Yeah.

Kim Krans: And, um, and I was like, Nope. And really art is art and the te and all of these symbols and archetypes are so mysterious in that way. Cause I wouldn't remember that moment. So precisely if there wasn't a certain energy there, the pushback there's a, there was enough of a pushback that, um, that I had to return to it that I had to circle back as, as an artist.

Kate: What's your new, what's your new deck? I wanna hear more about that. I have, I, I have your, um, I hear animal deck as well as your tarot deck actually. So I'm very excited about this new one, but I would love to hear about it and, and what the process was like creating it.

Kim Krans: The new deck is the, the fourth and the final of the wild and known series. And, um, I feel like I should go back and just say like, I don't wanna dis too hard on the rider waite deck, you know, that's fair. It there's, we, we, there's a certain energy in having that sort of punk response. There's something there's a spark there. If I had been like less, um, provoked by it, I might not have returned and felt like I have to remake this deck because this doesn't feel this doesn't sit right with me, but now from a different place in my life, I can look back on that deck and see there is, um, a mastery of the image. I'm so glad that it exists. My God, it paved the way. And you know, I just wanna make sure that that's clear, but also in terms of my interest and infatuation with the effect that images have on us, there's no, I'm not surprised that I had such a, um, strong response to that deck and sort of wanting it to be reinvented, wanting it, not to be people, for example, um, people that didn't look like me and people that didn't look like people that I knew.

Kim Krans: And, um, I found myself more shut out than I was invited in. So that's why I opened the deck up to be animals. I, I was like, I forget the people. I don't know what the people look like in the tarot. Let's just use the creatures so we can get more easily into the metaphors of the, of the deck, which then after seeing people's responses to the creatures in the wild Ontario, that's what led me to then draw its sister. What I think of as its sister deck, the wild, unknown, um, animal spirit. And after that, the third deck is the wild, unknown archetypes, which is kind of like the motor that runs and fuels both of those first decks. It's like they're built on archetypes. Um, the, the tarot, especially. So then I went back to school and, um, studied Jungian psychology and archetypes and alchemy, and, uh, started to more deeply understand what archetypes are. So then the third deck came in and then the fourth deck, um, the alchemy deck is the one that sort of gets to the underlying forces of even the archetypes and goes back to the very essential elemental forces of the world, um, such as the five elements and the planets and the metals and the metals of transformation and sort of secrets and the, the called symbols around alchemy. So that's the new deck. It's, it's a very, very humble attempt trying to the massive mystery that is alchemy.

Kate: Okay, wait, I need to back up and just ask the most beginner question of what is alchemy in this context and like what, what does one learn, drawing a card from that deck?

Kim Krans: <laugh>, that's a great question. Um, because when we hear alchemy, often, we think of like men in their, in, in the 17th, 18th century, Europe, uh, concocting a bunch of things with like beakers and fire and stuff like that. That's

Kate: Exactly.

Kim Krans: That is it. So it's unfortunate because it makes it seem like it happened. Then it's a past tense thing. And now we have to learn about it in a scholarly way. But my perspective in making this project, the alchemy deck and, um, studying alchemy in general is, is coming to the place of finding it as a perspective on being alive, that we are part of a great ecosystem. That's built on the five elements and we are part of a great cosmos. So drawing a card, you could draw, you know, the Neptune card, you could draw a card that's related to a, uh, a material of alchemy, like, uh, salt or iron or fire, or, um, what else is in there. So, so many, and it's a way to activate the metaphorical lens, where we start to think about the physical world and the mystical world as overlapping, rather than I'm just in my apartment.

Kim Krans: I'm just in my mundane apartment. And the mystical stuff happens when I do mystical stuff with mystical people. Mm. But <laugh> to be able to start to sense that they're actually always intertwined and there's an invitation through this deck to see them as such. So that, that the water in the cold shower is, yes, it's just water. That's below a certain degree of our usual shower, but it's so cold that it awakens something in me that is, um, beyond just the physical, it's a sense of courage and enlivenment and curiosity about my life. And I kind of snap out of it. How does just cold water do that? And so the alchemy deck brings us way back to the materials and, and in a way we start to honor and study the basic materials of our life. And in that we find that, that the mystical is everywhere.

Kim Krans: It's absolutely saturating the whole world. And we get bolstered by that. Also life becomes much more like fantastical and mysterious. And also we start to take our problems less personally. So there's these eight operations in alchemy and there's cyclical operations. Um, there's calcification mortification rotation. There're these big, they're like the trump cards or the major arcana in the, in the tarot, there's these themes. They kind of have like emotion or, or, or, um, emotion to them. And when they're occurring in one's life, we can start to realize, oh, I don't have to take this personally. This is a matter of rotation. This thing is repeating itself again and again and again, and that's, that's a universal pattern. It's not just me experiencing that.

Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. We're back

Kate: Say, I am a beginner and I'm listening to this podcast. And I'm like, where the hell do I begin? What is like the first step I, now I have this deck in my hands. And like, and I'm assuming your, your decks come with like a lovely little guidebook. And they feel very accessible to me as someone who has used them prior, wait for a while long before doing this interview with you. But what's like the first step for someone who's coming into this as a, as a newbie. Doree did you have a follow-up question?

Doree: Wait, I have a corollary, which is, I thought that you weren't supposed to buy your own deck.

Kate: I know I'm also wondering this too, is that allow, is that, can we buy, can we

Doree: Buy them? Yeah. So what is, what is that it's

Kim Krans: OK. I mean, there's all sorts of amazing, like, um, rules and regulations, and at the same time, it's, you can definitely buy your own deck and, um, everything's gonna be okay. I I'm actually, <laugh>, I'm doing a workshop, um, corresponding to the launch of the alchemy deck to, to activate the, the deck, this idea of like, you get the thing in the mail and you're sitting there, like, what do I do with this thing? And we're gonna do a practice that helps activate or bring to life the cards. And it's a very simple practice. It's one that's based on kind of reverence and, um, gratitude for teachers. You could say there's so many alchemists in our life, you know, in the guidebook, I talk about like the baker and the, the, um, hairdresser, the auto, the, the, um, person at the auto body shop. They're working actually with very physical elements in the world.

Kim Krans: And you could think of all of, all of us as alchemists in our own way. If you think of the person who works in a hair salon, I mean, my God, they're working with temperature all the time. They're refining color, they're refining shape. You know, it's very beautiful once you start to take on this perspective of, of, of life as a kind of alchemy and as life as our laboratory, so to speak. But to go back to this question around, what do you do and how do you access it? I think less is more, is my favorite way to approach any of the decks. I really love as, um, was mentioned earlier, like a card today and delving deep into the theme of the card, because you could say each of these cards could be studied and worked with for a long, long time. You don't have to know, you know, in my opinion, I I'm, I'm, I kind of run counter to a lot of like tarot culture, but I am interested in hearing from someone who pulled one card from the tarot and studied one card for five years, rather than someone that, that knows all the Google searches, Google search galore, and supposedly knows all 78 cards back and forward, you know, right off the bat, because there's a subtle sensitivity that can be developed in every single one of the, of the themes it's really studying different facets of life.

Kim Krans: And, and all this sounds so heavy. You can also just pull a single card with your close friend when you're having snacks and have a fun conversation. And it's, that's all it needs to be. You can pull a card and make a drawing from it. You can pull a card and do journaling. You can pull a card and go for a walk and just contemplate the concept. I'm, I'm very interested in taking the cards and U using them as each person sees fit in their life for that moment.

Kate: What are some of the other kind rituals that you've developed in this, in this space as part of your kinda day to day practice?

Kim Krans: That's interesting question. Um, you mean using the cards or do you mean like making new decks or my creative practice?

Kate: I I'm curious about, I think one of the things that came up, I think in the initial email we received was about mystical practices in of factor into, you know, using them in our own, in our own lives. And I, I'm curious if that's something that you do, if that resonates with you and, and if so, what, what are they?

Kim Krans: Oh, gosh. I'm like, how,

Kate: What are they not? Yeah.

Kim Krans: I'm like the list, the list is potentially very, very long. I can kind of go for it. I feel like that's my, um, skill set is, is getting into different ways of using like a mystical approach even to drawing. So I grew up as a very trained drawer. I, I went to art school, left home at 14 and worked with my teacher for three hours a day, drawing in, wow. It was a very dedicated practice. And now I approach drawing very differently where I'll draw, you know, blindfolded or with my eyes closed or in the dark with one candle, or what have you to see kind of what is the image that wants to come forward. So I'm always trying to push that line between the physical and the mystical, no matter what, what I'm doing. Um, and that that's really what interests me most in creatively.

Kim Krans: And then in terms of practices right now, and in relation to the cards, I've been thinking a lot about how, when we come to tarot reading often, it's like, I want an answer. Give me the answer. Yeah. And, and I, I mean, I have that too. It's like, I need to know <laugh>. And lately, before I pull a card, I've been doing this practice, this meditation called, uh, Puja meditation, P U J it means an offering and you put your hands in an offering shape and you hold the elbows extended, outward, and the eyes are almost closed and you hold that position. And there's a chant that goes along with it. Um, but I, it, it, it's an 11 minute hold. I don't necessarily do it for that long. I'll do it. I'll do it half the time, five until I start to feel that I, until I start to feel first energy in my hands, because I'm gonna draw a card with my hands.

Kim Krans: So you wanna have a certain kind of like energy in your hands, just for listeners. You certainly do not have to do this before you pull a card. But it's really interesting to do it. If, if anyone has been using the cards for years, even if you do it for one minute, the elbows are straight. That's the real kicker of the whole thing. Elbows are straight. And it's this gesture of the poems are both receiving. It's a gesture of receiving, and it's a gesture of offering. So you can get into the head space of, um, I'm bringing my worry, my impatience and my confusion, my frustration, my need to know I'm bringing that to the table and I'm offering it to the greater wisdoms that be, and in return, uh, I'm I'm offering, or I'm, I'm, I'm asking to re receive some information and some guidance.

Kim Krans: So I really love that as a way of walking into a reading. And then when I pick up the deck, that's in my, then in my hands, my hands are prepared because they've just made the shape of an offering. And it's a whole different feeling. I didn't think I'd be talking about this today. This is like kind of a new, a newer phase for me that I'm experimenting with. That's cool, but I find it's really powerful. And, um, it shuts out that it didn't shut out. It, it bypasses that grabby feeling of the hands with the tarot cards. Like, what am I gonna get this card, that card? And it better be a good one, all this stuff sort of neutralizes the mind and brings us back into a place of reverence, which is very, very crucial for any mystical practice, uh, to have a deeper effect is reverence.

Kate: Can we talk a little bit about wellness culture? Because I do think I, I, I think you've talked a bit about its impact on your life just as a, as a person outside of your work, or I'm sure it's all intertwined, but I'm how you navigate being a participant in the world of wellness, because there are so many things that are so incredibly positive about the space. And then there are so many things that are incredibly negative and, and harmful. Um, I'm thinking more along the lines of, you know, cultural appropriation and whitewashing. And so I'm wondering how you, how do you navigate this world, this world of wellness, that's being kind of monetized and turned into this whole industry. And, and this is something Dore and I talk about too, as a podcast that is centered on self care. Uh, it can be kind of, it can be kind of confusing. I don't know. I, I'd be curious to get your thoughts on how you navigate

Kim Krans: It. It's such a great question and it is mega confusing. It's a question I take very seriously thinking about when our, uh, practices spaces, creativity. When are these things pulling me away from the quote unquote reality of life, the complexity of life. When am I avoiding and escaping the, the, the pain? Um, why does it always have to end up with a product?

Kate: Hmm.

Kim Krans: Um, these are questions I'm running through my mind all the time. Uh, I do not have any answers, but I know that it's important for me to sit with the discomfort of the questions. And meanwhile, this is really important, not give up on the things that I do, the practices that give me enough energy to face the day and be myself. We cannot give up on the practices that empower us, even if the teachers and institutions and lineages are conflicted and confusing, all of that

Kim Krans: Is confusing, but the presence of PR and energy in the body that strengthens us to be ourselves in this world that desperately needs us. That is not confusing. It's clear nourishment. And it brings us to a place where we can be more compassionate, more active, more clear with our intentions, better friends, better moms, like all the things. And so it's been really important for me to not confuse those two things, regardless of how I feel about the wellness industry, all the lineages of yogas and gurus. I mean, I've lived in an Ashra, I've been devastated by the news from that ashram at the same time, I have to hold the reality that when I do the practices that teacher to student, teacher to student have been taught and passed down to me, I feel very much alive and very strong, more confident. And that's how I have to show up. So holding the tension between the negativity and the confusion, and also knowing what I need to do each day, so I can show up as best I can knowing I'm gonna make mistake after mistake after mistake. And the practices will also bring me to a place where I can apologize and I can move forward and learn. So I think it's an energy game. I, I think we all need more energy now. Otherwise it's too much. I get very serious with this kinda thing.

Kate: No, I love

Kim Krans: Very important.

Kate: I'm entranced listening to you. It's like

Doree: You have a hypnotic, um, voice and just like way of speaking,

Kate: I'm swept up in everything you're saying,

Kim Krans: But I, I also wanna say to go back to this idea of products, products are so weird. I, I feel so bizarre that I sell products, you know, and my friend, we

Kate: Do know we feel the same way. Yeah,

Kim Krans: I get it. My friend and I were talking this morning about how, how hilarious it is that the tarot is a product. They're these cards, you buy the product. They're 78 cards. Each one of the 78 cards that you physically hold is doing. Its very best as a card might to represent the thing that it is trying to represent. But the thing it's trying to represent is so huge. Like the lover's card, it's just this little card, this little M card and it's doing its very best, no matter how hard I draw it or how magical it looks. The thing that fuels the lover's card is like mesmerizing and, and so beyond a product and so beyond, you know, a name even. So in a sense, the product is the most mundane aspect of all these things we're talking about. It's it's the, the physical and the tangible, but we're talking about the, the big, the big forces that animate the cards.

Kate: Uh, Kim, it's been so wonderful to get to talk to you. This has just felt really, I don't wanna say comforting, but just, it's very, a very nourishing conversation I think is the word that I'm looking for. Great.

Doree: And you're inspiring me to get back to tarot.

Kate: I know Doree's same.

Kim Krans: Yeah. To get back to what

Doree: To tarot.

Kim Krans: Oh great. I can't wait to have you get the alchemy deck it's it will be less confusing than I explained it. I think I went like deep into the esoteric side of it, but

Kate: No, it sounds absolutely beautiful. And you know, I just think your work has so much meaning for so many people it's, it's

Kate: Impossible to quantify. I think the impact it has,

Doree: When is the, well, when is the alchemy deck out?

Kim Krans: The alchemy deck is out July 5th, this summer. And then I'm doing that workshop on July 10th for people that pre-order the deck. So it'll be a fun one. It's it's kind of an homage to my first drawing teacher who taught me how to draw and she taught me about alchemy. So,

Doree: Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Um, well this will be out before that. So people will have time to pre-order and sign up for your workshop if they want. Great. Um, Kim, where can people find you and um, buy your books, order, buy your tarot, order everything, um, et cetera.

Kim Krans: You can find me at kimkrans.com and thewildunknown.com. And I also have Insta feed as Kim Krans and the wild unknown has a feed too. So any of those spaces you'll find plenty of information and news.

Doree: Amazing. Thank you so much them. Thank you.

Kim Krans: Thanks so much.

Kate: Well, like I said, I was really inspired by all her kind of morning rich self-care rituals.

Doree: Yes. Ugh. She was, she was so great.

Kate: Yeah. I really, I really enjoyed getting to talk to Kim now. Do I wanna buy her new deck? Yes. The alchemy cards.

Doree: Yes. That sounds so cool.

Kate: I know. And I do seriously recommend I've I've used her animal deck and she's just great. Okay. Well moving on Doree, your intention last week was to quote, move your Bo.

Doree: Yes. So I actually wrote about this a bit in the forever 35 newsletter that I had been trying to do this 30 minutes a day for all of June thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and there had already been a couple of days where just for various reasons, it just like didn't happen. And I wrote about how I think in the past, I would've been like, what fuck that up? Like what's the point of continuing at all? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> and now I'm like, you know what? Perfection is not the goal here.

Kate: I like this.

Doree: I'm gonna do what I can. I'm going to aim for 30 minutes a day.

Kate: Ooh, Ooh. A anything

Doree: Doesn't happen? What

Kate: A powerful

Doree: Word I'm gonna be kind. I'm gonna be kind to myself, but I'm gonna keep going. I'm not abandoning ship

Kate: Doree. This is really beautiful. Forgive me for being a little cheese ball, but

Doree: It is no. What kind of cheese ball? Like one of those like,

Kate: Oh my God,

Doree: One's that covered in nuts? You know what I'm

Kate: Talking about? Oh no, no, no. I'm talking about the kind that my mom used to buy when I was a kid that came in like a blue.

Doree: Oh the,

Kate: I think they're planters.

Doree: Yes. I know exactly what you're talking about and they're, they're perfectly round and they're the color of, um, Cheetos.

Kate: Yes. And they're so mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Planters, cheese balls. Well, now I need these, I need some planters, cheese balls immediately. They kind of melt in your mouth. Okay. Well that's the kind of cheeseball that I am. Okay. I'm a planters cheese ball

Doree: Got ball. Got it, got it. Got it.

Kate: I think this is lovely.

Doree: Well, thank you.

Kate: And I also think like you just are doing what you can and taking it day to day by day. Yeah.

Doree: Yep. Exactly. Um, this week my intention is to watch some TV

Kate: I'm so behind in TV,

Doree: I'm behind in TV, but I'm also like, and I'm like wondering if this is sort of related to my depression that like, I almost like even sounds so weird, but even just like the act of watching TV, I'm like it's too overwhelming that,

Kate: Do you ever get sound weird at all? You get,

Doree: When you get depressed, do you get decision paralysis?

Kate: I mean, I feel like that's how I spend a lot of my life because of just my brain.

Doree: I think I just start feeling like, oh God, there's just too much to choose from. Like I just

Kate: Can't. Yeah. I'll just lay here instead.

Doree: Yeah, exactly. Um, and yeah, so, but there's like, there's such good stuff on TV and I, I just wanna like watch some good TV. So that's my intention this week. Just watch TV.

Kate: Do you have an, do you have a show that you're gonna start with?

Doree: Well, I, I need to finish somebody somewhere.

Kate: Oh my God. I

Doree: Got got through, I think I'm like six episodes in, so I don't, I only have a few more. Um, but that is a show that I would like to watch. And then I have weirdly been craving going back to <laugh>. Did you ever watch last tango in Halifax?

Kate: No, but it was recommended to us by so many listeners.

Doree: So it's this British drama, um, about two families that kind of come together when they're, uh, like the grandmother of one and the grandfather of the other get married. Um, they had known each other as kids and then they kind of like reunite and then it goes, it becomes like a family saga and it's like, so soapy, um, like some of the plot, some of the sub plots are just like so ridiculous that you're like really come on. Um, but you know, when you like get into a show, like, I probably watch like four seasons of it. Um, and you start to like, miss the people. Like, I kind of like miss them, like, I'm like, what are they up to? <laugh> what are my old pals and Halifax up to

Kate: Do I get like this? Yes. All the time. Also with reading books, I get like this.

Doree: Yeah. Yeah. So I think I might just like, it's, it's kind of comforting. Although I think the reason I stopped watching it was because I had hit this sort of like depressing point where I no spoilers, but like, there was like some death and I was just like, oh, this is getting too heavy. What happened to my like fun, soapy intergenerational family drama. Um, so, oh, oh. And someone else recently said that they had rewatched six feet under, I've never

Kate: Seen it. Oh my God. Kate. I know. Oh,

Doree: So I did watch it. You know, when it came, I actually didn't watch the first three seasons in real time. I watched four, five and six in real time. And then I went back. But anyway, point being this person was like, you know, it really hits different at like 44. This person was 44. It really hits different at 44 than it did at 20. And I was like, huh. And they were like, it's a, like, it holds up. It's a great rewatch. And I was like, maybe rewatch six. Ooh.

Kate: Okay. That's that is, I love a rewatch that

Doree: Is also kind of on my mind. There was also one season that I didn't watch the whole season of, I think season three. So like there will be some episodes that I've never seen.

Kate: I say go for it. I

Doree: Think I might.

Kate: That seems very like the right spot.

Doree: Okay. Oh, there were five seasons. Why did I think there were six seasons? Um, okay. There're only five seasons. That's that? That, that doesn't seem like too crazy.

Kate: You can knock that out real fast.

Doree: I can knock that. Trust me. Yeah. Um, anyway, Kate,

Kate: Mm-hmm, <affirmative>

Doree: What's going on with you? Did you lose your mind on a deadline?

Kate: Okay. I mean, yes. And I'm still on it. I'm gonna be on it for a while. Buckle up everybody. I did maintain one boundary and I was actually very proud of myself. I did not work at night for the most part. Um, working at night is something I have done. It exhausts me, but it also stimulates my brain so much that then I have a hard time falling asleep, going asleep. And then I stay up till like one or two in the morning and then I'm tired the next day. And then I feel even worse working. So instead like, you know, I put my kids into bed and then I went and started my own personal bedtime routine and have been asleep, you know, by 11 for the most part every night. And I've never been able to set that kind of boundary for myself. So that felt really good because the

Doree: Temptation

Kate: To always be working is very strong.

Doree: Don't I know

Kate: It, you know that there's I think what you're speaking about, and I think this happens whether you work from home or you work for somebody else, it's like sending emails in the middle of the night. Like we are so conditioned to constantly be working. Yeah. Uh, so that was, that was a big deal for me. And this week I wrote that I just wanna move. I, I kind of like, haven't really moved my body much this week, which I wanted to do. I also am trying to decide if I need to stop reading my alien books.

Doree: Oh,

Kate: I'm almost at the end of, I think I have like probably six more that I could do and that I've read every book in this universe. We're talking like upwards of 30 to 40 books. I've read now. Holy shit. Can't I know.

Doree: Oh my God. Okay.

Kate: I think I saw someone had a picture of all the books. It's a lot it's it's I think maybe it's total 40, but I don't know. I've read a lot of them and I'm like, I should start reading something else, but there's also this part of me that doesn't want to, I just wanna keep reading about these aliens. So it's kind of that same thing where I'm like, I would love to, I would love to read all these wonderful books that I have sitting on my bedside table, but these freaking aliens are just like my own, my comfort. Like my only comfort is getting back into this universe where I'm now with alien pirates is where I'm at now. But eventually this is gonna come to an end. So either I like finish it out or I take a break.

Doree: Okay. Where are you leaning?

Kate: Well, I already started the new one, so I'm okay. I have one more to finish and then I'm pretty sure the author is on her website. Like doing one as a serial. Oh my God. Yes. It's on her website. Oh my God. Okay. I, I really just love these aliens. I just, I don't know what else to do. So anyway, eventually I will read a different book that does not take place in this universe.

Doree: Okay. All right.

Kate: Well, this was a weird one. We are in weird spaces. Don't you think we

Doree: Are in weird spaces? Yes. Yeah,

Kate: But that's okay. That's okay.

Doree: I mean, sometimes things get weird

Kate: Don't we know it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> well, Doree, forever 35 is hosted and produced by you. Doree Shafrir and me Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thank you all so much for listening. Bye.