Kate keeps her bedtime prods on her nightstand thanks to a listener rec, and Doree is riled up about the formula shortage and the ignorance it’s unmasking. Then, writer, teacher, and creator of @sitting_pretty, Rebekah Taussig, joins them to talk about disability and motherhood, how the complications of kindness toward disabled people stems from problems in the social structures and systems, and why her one line a day journal is her favorite form of self-care.

Photo Credit: Micah Jones

Mentioned in this Episode

• Now We’re Talking Newsletter

• Mom Brain Isn’t A Joke

• Sitting Pretty: The View from My Ordinary Resilient Disabled Body by Rebekah Taussig

• Line A Day Journal

• How to Stay Grounded in the Uncertainty of the Pandemic by Rebekah Taussig | Time

• Ilia Super Serum Skin Tint

• Citrus Scrub Oil

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Transcript

Kate Spencer: Hello, friends and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer

Doree Shafir: And I am Doree Shafrir

Kate Spencer: And we are not experts.

Doree Shafir: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate Spencer: We are Doree. And if you have, if you're serum curious, you can visit our website for over 35, uh, podcast.com to learn more links to everything we mention on the show, or there follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod Instagram at forever 35 podcast, and you can join the forever 35 Facebook group where the password is serums

Doree Shafir: Indeed. And you can also go to shopmyshelf.us/forever 35 and shop all the products we mentioned on the show and also shop the brand new Kate's butt care shelf.

Kate Spencer: So excited about my butt care picks. So excited. We will be, we will also be adding more shelves as time goes on, like favorite products, more, you know, just we're we will keep expanding

Doree Shafir: All the things,

Kate Spencer: All the things, our routines. Yeah. We'll put it all in there. It's very fun. I, I really enjoy getting to it is really fun to make the shelf.

Doree Shafir: Yeah. Yeah. So check that out. Um, and you can also sign it for a newsletter at 35 podcast.com/newsletter, and you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. And you can email us at forever 35 podcast. Gmail com Kate, you have some big news you've been influenced.

Kate Spencer: Oh my gosh. Okay. So the listener who wrote in and was like, I keep my skincare products on my bedside table and I believe my reaction was like, oh, what, why would anyone do that? And then that night, I was like, why would anyone do that? I should do that. So here's what I've been doing. I've been washing my face. And then I keep my Dr. Dennis Gross, L E D light mask, like next to my bed. So then I get into bed and put that on and then I've put my eye cream, my dear skin serum that I'm using and then their cream, which I'm obsessed with. I have those on my bedside table, because like, after you light mask, you, you need to light mask on clean skin. So I wash tone and then light mask

Doree Shafir: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kate Spencer: And it's like, once I'm in bed and I'm reading, I just kind of wanna stay snuggled in there. I don't wanna like get back up. And yeah, so I've been doing my skin care in bed.

Doree Shafir: Amazing.

Kate Spencer: I need to, like, if I stick with this, I'm gonna need to figure out a better system because I have a tiny bedside. There's already a humidifier on it. There's not a lot of room. I have like 18 Vaseline and Aqua fours. So I need to kind of see how I like this, but the listener who suggested it, you were right. You were right. It's a great idea. It's a great idea. I, I highly recommend it cuz I know you like to get you like to get into bed. You read, you journal, you stretch your toes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Doree Shafir: Yep. It's true. All things.

Kate Spencer: I, I was suspicious of this, but it's actually very convenient.

Doree Shafir: Mm. Okay. I'm excited for this new frontier.

Kate Spencer: I mean, is it like peak? I don't think it's laziness. It's just like a multitasking kind of thing. I should mention. The name of the serum is deliverance Trinity serum, which I'm using at night, except when I use Trein. And then, um, I gotta tell you this fricking cream that they make is great. Instant angel, check it out.

Doree Shafir: Okay. I will check it out

Kate Spencer: No, you would. It, this is a nice one. And my current eye cream is Josie Moran. It's the pro retinol eye cream by Josie Moran. Well, On a more somber and frustrating note, we are, I think both, but you, you put this in our show notes feeling really fucking pissed off about this baby formula shortage that's happening right now.

Doree Shafir: It's a real fucking bummer. I mean, so it's kind of, for those who are not sort of caught up, um, it's, it's been brewing for a few months. There was, um, a, there's a plant, an Abbott laboratories plant that makes a lot of, um, formula in Michigan that was shut down. Um,

Doree Shafir: There's all kinds of controversy around how, and when it was shut down, because there was a whistleblower that had sent a letter to the FDA in like September, but the FDA didn't act on it until January. In the meantime, in the fall, like infants had died from contaminated formula that had been produced in this factory, but then when they shut it down, they didn't find the same strain of bacteria. It's like a whole mess. But the, the outcome is that there is a huge formula shortage right now in the United States, especially, um, a lot of specialty formulas. So, you know, babies who can't process, let's say cows milk, or, you know, like have a lactose intolerance or you just have various issues. There's all kinds of specialty formulas for, um, different issues that that babies have. And a lot of those there's a huge shortage of, and this has now led to it sort of, I guess the predictable outcome of this is the activist, like coming out of the woodwork and saying, well, breastfeeding is free. Like what's wrong with all you people who are feeding formula in the first place, which is like

Kate Spencer: Kate starts to get very riled up at these comments.

Doree Shafir: Yeah. It's like, and you know who, you know today we're recording this on Friday, you know, who is like the main character on Twitter today for talking about stuff like this, Bette fucking Midler.

Kate Spencer: Oh, just shut your fucking mouth. Bet. Just shut up. Just sing some songs from beaches and shut and just shut up

Doree Shafir: Yeah. She said breastfeeding is free and available on demand.

Kate Spencer: No, it's not motherfucker. I didn't produce a lot of milk.

Doree Shafir: And, and also even if you do, it's not free.

Kate Spencer: No. Which

Doree Shafir: Like your time is not free. Yeah. The effort is not free there. Like I would say most women who breastfeed, not all, but most also have to pump pumping is not free.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. The pump costs money, even though it's just, Obamacare does cover it. Now

Doree Shafir: The level of ignorance is, And the level of ignorance. Oh, privilege. Just astounding

Kate Spencer: And privilege. Like, like for example, me in corporate America, I had a breast pumping room that I would go to three times a day. What about the person working in a restaurant? Do they have a breast pumping room where they can go with their breast pump on their what? 15 minute break. Fuck off bette.

Doree Shafir: Yeah.

Kate Spencer: Wow. I don't know why I'm channeling all the range to bette Midler all the rage. Maybe bet's great, but this is very stupid. You should not be speaking about this bette. Leave it to two podcast hosts.

Doree Shafir: You know, the other, the other thing that I do also just wanna say about this and I, I did tweet something to this effect. Um, so you may have seen this already the sentiment, but I do feel like I see a lot of articles about this, or even, you know, people on social media saying like, I really wanted to breastfeed, but I couldn't, or, you know, for various reasons, um, or, you know, I had a medical issue or whatever. And so I had to resort to formula. And like that experience is obviously valid, but I do just wanna point out that, like, it is a totally valid choice to just use formula. Like you don't have to have wanted to breastfeed to use formula, right?

Kate Spencer: You can not want to breastfeed.

Doree Shafir: You can choose, you can choose to not breastfeed. Like that is your choice. You can, that's the justification for doing it is because you don't fucking feel like it. So that's it like, you know, we talk about body autonomy and like, to me, this is like a huge part of body autonomy. So part of i dont Know. I just trying to put that out there because I feel like there, despite we have, I think we have made strides in this area and like the fed is best movement has, I think educated a lot of people. Um, but I do just want to make it clear that there should be no stigma attached to using formula. And if you can breastfeed and you enjoy breastfeeding. Great. That is wonderful for you. I'm very happy for you, but also if you just wanna use formula, that's totally fine.

Kate Spencer: you Know, both my children were both breast milk and formula fed and uh, I can tell you now they're totally fine. You couldn't you wouldn't notice a difference, you know? Yeah, yeah. It really doesn't matter,

Doree Shafir: But there is a difference for some people in their mental health.

Kate Spencer: Oh my God. Yes.

Doree Shafir: Breastfeeding can be a real struggle and there's not enough support for people who choose to breastfeed or chest feed, I guess, as, um, we are also saying now, um, but that aside I do strongly believe that the choice to formula feed should not be stigmatized

Kate Spencer: Doree. I agree with you. And I think this just kind of plays into the larger conversation we are having about reproductive justice and about how there is zero support. Yep. For parents, for mothers mm-hmm <affirmative> and all the pressure. There's a great article right now. And a quote is going on in the Atlantic and it's on mom, brain and it's called mom brain. Isn't a joke.

Doree Shafir: I, linked to it in my, uh, newsletter.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. And it's it it's the, the subheading is when our culture makes fun of mothers forgetfulness. It is abdicating responsibility for the overwork women who are experiencing and its effects on their health. And, um, we can also link to this in the show notes. Also obviously sign up for doree's newsletter, but this really speaks to the fact that we're just, we're just essentially, uh, abandoned <laugh> and then yeah. And then expected to be the most

Doree Shafir: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kate Spencer: And it's SU it's just such absolute bullshit. And I'm I'm, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I'm enraged about it. So thank you for bringing it up. As I put my skincare on, in my, in bed at night, I sit there fuming <laugh>

Doree Shafir: It's enraging. So

Kate Spencer: It is, and like it impacts people's ability to care for themselves. Like there's, there's no thought given to, like you were saying mental care to the self care of people. It's just enraging

Doree Shafir: Mm-hmm <affirmative> So, oh my God, Sorry, Kate. I didn't mean to get your blood pressure up about this.

Kate Spencer: No, and I'm sorry. I like, I swore and I got all huffed. I just, I feel so discouraged and I know that is not productive. Um, but sometimes I just, I feel so I feel so discouraged on a, like a large Level. Well, Doree, I do think one thing that doesn't, that doesn't make me feel discouraged, that actually brings me a lot of joy and hope. And excitement is our conversation today with Rebecca Taussig

Doree Shafir: Great segue.

Kate Spencer: Was that good? Or was that good? We just,

Doree Shafir: that Was great.

Kate Spencer: I mean, she's a freaking, such a pleasure to talk to such an incredible person who is so thoughtful and just so interesting. Uh, and we, we really had, I feel like we really had a blast talking to her. It was just really fun.

Doree Shafir: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kate Spencer: Um, she was great. May I tell you about Rebecca?

Doree Shafir: Oh, you may.

Kate Spencer: Rebecca is a Kansas city based writer. She spent most of her life immersed in the world of writing and reading as a student teacher and human person, because she believes that words and stories matter. She earned a PhD in creative nonfiction and disability studies from the university of Kansas. And she writes personal essays that participate in the stories being told about disability. Some which you can find on her website, which we will link. She also runs an Instagram account at sitting underscore pretty where she regularly crafts amazing mini memoirs that explore what it means to live in her particular, disabled female body and her memoir and essays sitting pretty the view from my ordinary resilient, disabled body is out anywhere you get books, you can find it, you know, find it at your local bookstore. And she writes that it's born from the most personal place swallowed in academic knowledge and shaped by the voice she's been honing online for years provides a nuanced portrait of a body that looks and moves differently than most. She's wonderful.

Doree Shafir: She's so great. You'll wanna be her best friend when you listen to this.

Kate Spencer: And we should also note that a listener suggested Rebecca as a possible guest on the podcast. So thank you for this incredible suggestion. We really, we love, um, hearing from people with guest ideas. So thank you.

Doree Shafir: Yeah, really appreciate it. All right. We are going to take a break Well, we are so excited to have Rebecca on the show today, Rebecca to forever 35. Oh,

Rebecca Taussig: Thank you so much for having me.

Doree Shafir: Yay. Um, for, I know our listeners can't see you, but I just have to say, I love your bangs.

Rebecca Taussig: Ah, thank you. I, uh, this was like a impulse cut all the way to my hairline in the, the other night. So thank you. <laugh>

Doree Shafir: Oh,

Rebecca Taussig: Wow. See, like I, I just like go and go and then I realize, oh wow, there's not much left, but thank you.

Doree Shafir: Thank you. They're very, cute

Kate Spencer: This isn't how we normally start off our interviews, but I actually have a, a follow up question. Yeah. Because we often get asked like, should I cut bangs? Because off bangs sometimes feel like the most important decision a person can make in the world. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, what's your advice if someone's like, I don't know what to do. Should I cut? Should I cut bangs in my hair?

Rebecca Taussig: Oh, I think you have to try it at least once. Okay. Right. And if you, you know, like, and if, if it's a terrible disaster, they will grow back. It will be painful, but you will have known you' have explored that terrain. I, uh, I keep going back to them because, um, I, I don't know, like I have such thin hair and there's something about like, when my bangs get longer and the, I don't know, anyways, it works for me. So I just am a little addicted to them. Um, but I think you have to try it right with hair. Gotta try all the things. Yeah.

Doree Shafir: Cause like hair grows.

Rebecca Taussig: Yeah. Try all the things at least once I think.

Doree Shafir: Okay. Now we can get to our typical first question, which is what is a self-care practice that you have.

Rebecca Taussig: Yes. Yeah. I mean, like, I, I love that you both like dive into this so much. And I, like, I wish I was, I wish I was like better at self care things. It's so important. And I thinking about it, I think that the thing that has given me the most that is like this ritual in my days that I've been doing for a decade now, um, is, is, is related to writing. I have these, um, five year journals where, um, like every date. So like May 4th. Um, today there's like, um, five tiny little slots to write like a sentence. Um, in every night, since like 2012, I like write a detail or a, a bit of dialogue or like an image or like something from the day. Um, and for me, I don't know, like I get so sucked up into like the flurry of my days that I like forget all of the tiny bits that like actually make my life up.

Rebecca Taussig: And so it, it, it like prompts me to be present in the day to think about like, what am I gonna write? What do I wanna hold onto? And then it it's sort of this reflective practice because when I write at the end of the day, I can look back at the previous years and see like, oh my, like how, how was I that happening four years ago? Or like, I thought that about myself four years ago, or like, um, it's just like really grounding in my timeline and themes of my life and things like that. So I do that every night and I I'm acting like I've never missed a day. I've missed. I think there was even months in there that I've missed, but for the most part, um, I do that every night and now that I have a two year old and everything is happening faster than I can hold onto, it feels like really special practice for me. So I think that's, that's gotta be the main one.

Kate Spencer: I'm I'm I'm BEC I'm. I don't know. This is amazing because we literally recorded an episode of our podcast, like what three hours ago, and a listener wrote in about this journal, which is one of Doree's practices. And we just had a conversation about this. It feels very like, um, one of those weird universe moments that

Rebecca Taussig: No way!

Kate Spencer: yes. Dory is also a line a day. Journaler.

Doree Shafir: I do. I haven't been doing it as long as you, I started, um, as I was saying to Kate, I started in December, 2019, which, you know, I had no idea that the world was going to change three months later, but it's, it's now this very like bizarre artifact mm-hmm <affirmative> to go back and see all those, you know, the early pandemic days. Um, and my son is three, he just turned three. So it's also really interesting to just, you know, see what he was doing and things he was into and like, oh, we still read that book. or, you know, just like all these little things that I never would've remembered. um, so everything you're saying, like so resonates with me and it is I find it to be such a, such a great practice for so many reasons. And I'm so glad I started doing it. And I've really been pitching Kate on starting one

Kate Spencer: On the phone. I feel like this fact that this is the second time it's come up today with a new person. I think this is

Doree Shafir: I think this is the Universe telling you, okay. Yeah, you gotta

Kate Spencer: Dust. I've gotta pull it out from whatever bin I put it in with all the other discarded journals that I have. And

Rebecca Taussig: Well, and the part of what is great about it is that it's so low commitment. I mean, like you can't spend That much time on it. You ha you only have so much room. I'm always writing like into the margins, but, um, and then when you get to like five years, 10 years, it's, it's pretty wild. Like the things that you see about yourself or like the patterns or the memories that you totally would've forgotten. Um, so many things I wrote like about motherhood before I had a child that I'm looking at now, like, I don't know, just all kinds of stuff like that. So yes, Kate.

Kate Spencer: Okay. <laugh> okay. It's gonna happen

Rebecca Taussig: This is A moment.

Kate Spencer: Well, I, you had mentioned that the practice of this line of day journal kind of helps keep you in the present. And I, I was reading your piece in time about pandemic uncertainty and how, how just the act of staying present has helped you get through the uncertainty and the intensity of the COVID pandemic. What are some other things that, that you've leaned on that kind of help you stay, stay present in that way?

Rebecca Taussig: Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. I mean, like, for me, so much of it is writing. Yeah. I, I think that that's like, uh, somehow has become like a part of the way that my brain functions. Um, so, um, yeah, I mean like diff trying to find different techniques for like, um, how to show up on the page is, has been really important to me, like just recently. And, and that can be really hard to do when you have a, a toddler. Um, so, uh, just recently, like I started at the advice of my friend, Caitlin mets, who, um, is like a wonderful creator and creative person also with the toddler suggested that I just like start, um, like a, a writing ritual with Otto, my son now. So like most mornings we start the day by both of us making marks on paper. Um, and, uh, and for me, just even trying to force myself to like, put one honest thing on paper in the, like, starting the morning, that way it's like harder than it sounds <laugh>.

Rebecca Taussig: Um, but like being truthful, um, one time a day, like forcing myself to put whatever that thing is on the paper. Sometimes it really surprises me. Um, but like having that as an expectation of how we start the day too, I think, um, as opposed to like with the, with the journal, it's something I sort of like cram into the last moments before I fall asleep. So like, I don't know a lot of it has to do with writing. Um, I, and I think another, I don't know another thing with the pandemic and staying present is that for, for a lot of it. So, uh, like Otto, my son was born in may of 2020, so we kind of like started pandemic and parenthood at the same time. And we spent like a year in, in literal isolation, which led to like, you know, all of the kinds of isolation.

Rebecca Taussig: Um, and, and I think like coming out of like, starting to kind of look up from those days and connect with other people, it's such a simple thing, but like, I really got to a place where we just like lived in our tiny bubble and we didn't look out, you know, um, physically or like metaphorically <laugh>. And so, um, I think like being in trying to like force myself to be intentional, to like, um, show up, honestly, for a few people in my life has, has been an kind of an important thing I'm, I'm trying to get back to. Um, I don't know, I'm not a great advice person, so I don't <laugh>, I don't know what I would tell other people to do. It's been a lot, I mean, it's been a lot for all of us in so many different ways. I think it's something we'll be Unspooling for a very long time. Yeah. Um, and, and, and kind trying to recover from and build, um, and heal and all of that. Um, so I don't know, those are a couple of things <laugh>

Doree Shafir: You you've brought up, um, motherhood and something you wrote on your Instagram recently really struck me, which was about, um, disability and motherhood and visibility mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and I was hoping you could talk a little bit about how you have been impacted by seeing other disabled moms and their kids and why visibility kind of in this realm is so important.

Rebecca Taussig: Oh, okay. I will try not to talk the rest of the afternoon. <laugh>. I mean, it's so much what a wonderful question. Thank you for asking it. I, I mean, so first of all, yes, I do. I, I literally don't know that my son would exist if I had not seen other, um, moms spec, the disabled moms, but specifically like moms who use wheelchair, who, a wheelchair who have, um, sort of this, uh, similar physicality to me, um, I don't know that Otto would exist without that. Um, I really, uh, growing up, I like really struggled to see myself as a mom, imagine myself as a mom and picture what that would look like or how that could be, I, I didn't, there was so much of it that that was just sort of this blank, this massive blank, and kind of in, in contrast to that, the picture of what a mother should be, which I think we all know that picture, right.

Rebecca Taussig: Like what a mother should be was so loud and big and prominent. And so the combination of that, I, I just was sort of like, I don't think I wanna have kids, you know, I like, and, um, that's a lot to, um, unpack in itself. Like how much of, how do I know whether I actually don't wanna have kids or whether I don't believe that I can have kids or I don't believe right. You know, it's all of that. But, um, Alex Wegman in particular was someone on Instagram that I started following and, and her pictures of motherhood. Um, I still think about some of her, her posts today, like when, as, as I'm becoming this parent, that she was when I started following her. Um, and, and thinking, not just like, I can be a mother and I can make this work, but like kind of imagining that disability and motherhood combined can be this like uniquely beautiful thing.

Rebecca Taussig: And, and how can I, um, lean into the things that are like limitations in, in one way, um, kind of lean into those limitations to create something uniquely beautiful. So like Alex, uh, I remember one of her posts was writing about like how quickly she gets things done with her kids and how like, because of her, her mobility limitations, um, that she does things a little bit slower. And instead of seeing that as like a deficit or instead of, um, uh, like feeling worried or ashamed about that, like seeing that as like, this is how we do things, and there's something really beautiful about that slow speed that we take. So that to me, um, has been, uh, life changing, literally like, um, very few things would be that life changing. I think though, that one thing that's important that I'm I'm grappling with now, um, is recognizing why, like, one of the reasons why we, we, I haven't necessarily had a ton of pictures of disability and motherhood in part I think is because it, it, it can feel, um, risky or especially vulnerable for disabled parents to share their parenting experiences.

Rebecca Taussig: Like if there is so much skepticism, um, like tangible con like with real consequences, skepticism of, of disability or disabled parents, there's a, a, a instinct to hide or protect that. And I'm grappling with that now, as I think about like, I wanna be this picture of motherhood for other people who, who haven't seen that. And also I feel this tension of like, wanting to protect what we have and, and not open it up to that kind of scrutiny, which I think all like a lot of parents would grapple with in different ways too, but there's something like really scary a, about being a disabled parent and doing that. So that's where I'm at right now.

Doree Shafir: How has it been for you being kind of a, a pretty visible disabled parent on social media?

Rebecca Taussig: You know, I, um, I, I have found that I have never struggled with sharing any, any part of my life as much as I struggle with stare sharing parenting. And I would say that in terms of the responses from people that they're overwhelmingly positive, um, like people are really affirming and, and, um, and generous. I think that part of that experience that I didn't expect that was really has been confusing for me. And I, I still don't quite know what to do with it, um, is like, um, I show up really being really honest about a part of, of this unique intersection of disability and motherhood. And then there will be a lot of responses from, from nondisabled parents saying something along the lines of like, oh, we all struggle with that. That's, you know, like welcome to motherhood, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so the impulse there is to be like, oh, no, like you, you're part of this, you know, like you're included, and this is what it is.

Rebecca Taussig: Yeah. And then part of it is like this erasure of like the uniqueness of that and how like, right, like disabled parents are disproportionately, um, lose custody of their kids. And in greater, you know, like there's a disproportionate to the number of disabled parents and how many of them lose custody of their kids. Like that's, um, there are laws like in almost 30 of the us states, literally laws on the books that say that disability is like, uh, a reason to lose custody with no other proof of neglect or abuse necessary. And the ADA, you know, is like, um, combats that law, if that's even the right legal language. Um, but like those books still exist or those laws still exist on the books. Right. And they're a part of a history and a system of belief. So, so it's not exactly the same, even as it is some ways the same or there are those overlaps. And I just don't quite know how to, how to process that, what to do with that, how to think about it. Um, but that has been a surprise for me.

Kate Spencer: Wow. I, I, I, I love kind of the moments you're pulling from, and, and as a writer, this idea of even just reading other people's work, um, and the language that people choose to use can be such a powerful tool in changing our own perception of ourselves. And also the kind of cultural conversation. Um, I was, when I was reading one of your Instagram posts, you had a line and this really stood out for me. You said, I'm not wheelchair bound or confined to a wheelchair. My wheelchair is as precious and liberating as a tongue thin or airplane. And that just kind of bowled me over. Honestly, I just thought it was, it was such a, what it was beautiful writing. And you, I mean, we're gonna get into it. Let me tell you, I was looking at your syllabi for your classes. And I was like, Doree, I would give anything to take this class.

Rebecca Taussig: You're doing your research. Oh, this is, this is a deep dive and this is gone.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. I mean, you're, we'll get into this, but Rebecca's a professor, everybody. And she teaches every writing class I wanna take. But so you're obviously an extremely talented writer, but just that shift in language shifted my understanding. And so I'm curious as a writer, How, how do you think of language and word choice in, in as kind of a tool for changing, uh, the cultural perception of disabled folks?

Rebecca Taussig: Mm-hmm <affirmative> oh, I, I think it's one of the, I think it's incredibly powerful. I think that, um, like it's so easy to move through life thinking that words are like, um, like cheap and easy and Lightheart, you know, like something to sort of spat around with little consequence. And, um, and, and I, I have found it just personally in my own life, um, that language is power, like changes, um, lives, uh, like for me, um, I, I went most of my life without ever even knowing the, the word ableism. Mm. I think I was like 27 when I first read the word ableism and all of the understanding that came with just knowing that word and like reexamining my own experiences in my place in the world and what I had come to believe about my place in the world. Um, like this shift in seeing myself as the problem in any given room to looking at the structures around me, um, and, and, and identifying ableism as this sort of, um,

Rebecca Taussig: Force shaping the world around me, um, both like physically in buildings, um, and, and infrastructure and, and sidewalks and streets, but also in, in like social narratives and, um, the stigma that is attached to disability in so many different realms. So, um, so learning that word changed the way that I saw myself, um, in deep, um, kind of like life changing ways that, that started to shape decisions that I made for myself. Um, and then like, by extension, like changed my life. Right. So it's hard to, to be flippant about that. Um, I think also an interesting part of language is that, um, like, especially in conversations about disability, you see a lot of debates about the right language or what language you should be using. And, um, like, especially person first versus identity, first Lang language disability, like disabled person versus person with a disability.

Rebecca Taussig: And, um, and I think that when we recognize words as being so powerful, then we, then we want to choose the right ones. Um, and, and that can get complicated too, because language is powerful, but it's also personal. I mean, it's like wrapped up in, in whole histories and, and, um, the ways that we see the world and the way we see ourselves. Um, so, so with, with language, like person with a disability versus disabled person, I, I always say, um, to like, look to the person and listen to the person speaking who's like describing themselves, like defer to the person describing themselves that in that case, I don't know that it's as much about the right language as it is about like, um, paying attention to the implications and the person impacted on the other end of it. So, yeah, I think that language, um, is it changes the way that we see the world. It changes the way we see people. It changes where we identify a problem. Um, it, it really, it changes quite a bit and in ways that are so subtle that we, we often, like aren't even paying attention to them. So, um, it's like a it's, it can be sneaky and slippery

Kate Spencer: <laugh> yeah. I wanna kinda loosely kind of connect it to another question that we had, but it, it kind of also makes me think of what you have written about how kindness is used toward disabled people in a way that, um, can often be demeaning mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and, and just reflecting on that specific quote that I mentioned, like, I've definitely used these two phrases that you mentioned wheelchair bound and confined to a wheelchair mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and it's, it's, it's, I don't know, I'm in my brain, I'm trying to connect to those two, but I'm not sure I'm, I'm getting there, but I, I would love to ask you about how you talk about the way kindness is used by able Bodied people toward disabled people.

Rebecca Taussig: Yeah. Well, I think, I think that's definitely connected, cuz I think a lot of times we try to pick words that we feel like are kind yes. Right. Like, yeah. And so, um, like a lot of language I think of when I think about like kindness and disability and language would be like, um, like differently abled instead of disabled as one that, that would, uh, show up a lot. Um, or I don't know, there's all, there's all kinds of like really cringy ones, um, that I'm like blanking on right now. Um, handy, capable, something like that. Right. Like little, um, handy capable, but, um, it's supposed to be empowering, right. Like it's supposed to be kind. And so I think that, I think that definitely relates and I, um, I, yeah, I have a whole chapter in my book, uh, called the complications of kindness.

Rebecca Taussig: So I have some things to say about it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and, and to be honest with you, um, of all the things that I write about the complications of kindness tend to be the things that like ruffle the most feathers that people get sort of like uncomfortable about. Um, and I understand why, because we hold kindness really dear to us. I do too. Like I, I wanna live in a world that's kind. Um, but I think when it comes to disability, we often have in our, we, we kind of missed actual forms of kindness and we sort of reach for these, um, really trite kind of superficial acts of kindness that generally, if we're being honest are kind of more about celebrating the non-disabled person's kindness than it is about really changing anything for the, the disabled person. So, uh, I mean like what you really obvious example would be like the, the viral quote unquote news stories about the quarterback of the football team asking this disabled girl to prom.

Rebecca Taussig: And like, now we are like, now there's hope for humanity. Right? Um, or yeah, or like in, in, in the, my book I write about, there was like a, it was all over the news and like pretty prominent news outlets that published, um, a story about this young woman who, um, got on a plane. And, um, they had like a call as there was someone that knew ASL American sign language. And she became the translator for this deaf blind man who was on the plane. And there were all of these stor like photographs, someone had taken photos of her on the plane and it was, they were all the photos were like focused on her face and, um, sort of the man, the deafblind man was kind of erased from this story. It wasn't about him. It wasn't about like, what was gonna happen to this man if he bought this plane ticket, paid good money for it, got on the plane and there wasn't a translator, like what was the plan for him?

Rebecca Taussig: Um, so one of the things that these stories, these quote unquote like news stories do is highlight that in a lot of the, um, expressions of kindness towards disabled people, we are actually missing the problem, right? Like the problem around them, that the structures around them, um, why is it considered newsworthy that a disabled girl would get asked to prom? Mm. Why is that a news story? What, what is the social stigma surrounding this, this person that would make that a news story? Or what, what is the, um, plan for deaf, um, blind people who fly? Like, what is the protocol there? What is the system in place to catch that person and make sure that that flight works for them? Um, we don't talk about those things in those viral news stories, because we're so excited about this like young woman who, who knows ASL and is gonna translate.

Rebecca Taussig: And now we have hope for humanity when like these people on the receiving end of these moments of kindness are sort of, um, left to fend for themselves. And, um, in the book I have like a tiny example. It's a tiny, tiny example of, of, of kind of how I look at kindness and disability. Um, when I go to restaurants often, um, that area where they have like the napkins in, and the straws, um, is out of reach for me, it's somehow like up high and tucked far back. And, um, and it wouldn't be uncommon for someone to come and like, see that I couldn't reach them and, and like pick up a napkin for me or something, which is great. Thank you. Um, but like, what about just changing the design, right? Like what if we actually changed the way that that was set up, um, and that way anyone who, who couldn't reach that and needed to would be able to have access.

Rebecca Taussig: And we wouldn't be just sort of like sitting there waiting for the kind person to reach the straw for us. Right. And so I think so much of it is really about looking at these structures and systems that we have in place that were created for, um, you know, this like very narrow prototype that very few of us fit. Um, and, and try to actually change those structures instead of just like finding a way to feel really good about ourselves for asking someone to prom, you know? Um, so that's a, I don't know, that's my very abbreviated, uh, like dipping my toe in the conversation. Obviously I could talk about it for a while. Um, but, uh, I think that hopefully that's like the short version of it for people. And then, you know, I've gotta, there's a Ted talk out there somewhere where I talk more about it in a chapter, in a book. So there's more if you're interested.

Kate Spencer: Okay. well lets take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. We are back.

Doree Shafir: I wanted to ask, um, about something else you talk about in your book, which is the kind of three tropes of disability that you saw growing up. Um, the monstrous kind of hunchback of Notre Dame trope, the inspirational Helen Keller trope, the angelic forest Gump trope. And I was hoping you could talk a little bit about how these tropes influenced your own self image, and then also do you feel like you've broken free of them? Um, and if so, how did that process play out?

Rebecca Taussig: Yeah. That's thank you. That's a great question. Um, yeah, I, I mean, I, I definitely grew up, um, not seeing anybody that looked like me or felt true to my experience, um, in, in the, in media, in storytelling. I, it, um, so what I ended up doing, growing up was I, I really leaned into the inspirational, um, trope. Um, and I, I mean, I would like, I literally, I don't talk about this, that much in the book. Um, maybe that's, this is something for another book. Um, but my, my mom and I, um, would actually go and do talks together and, and tell this, like my story, um, I'm putting, I'm doing air quotes here. Um, my story and, and I was really like performing this inspiration, um, for people. And I, um, my mom did that with, with me when I was younger.

Rebecca Taussig: And then when I became a teenager, I kind of started doing it on my own a little bit. Um, and, and it didn't, it, it wasn't fully true. It wasn't like a complete picture of me. I think part of it, it was partially true that there was a way that I, um, I mean, kind of the message was like, if I can have joy, surely you can have joy, right. If I can have joy from my disabled broken body, surely you, um, can find joy. And that was sort of, I think, kind of the underlining bottom line message of a lot of what the talks that I was giving and, and, and part of why that wasn't sustainable is that there was a lot of other stuff going on for me, but I didn't feel like there was any way for me to express that it wasn't okay to express any of that.

Rebecca Taussig: Um, and so I, I really buried, um, so much of my experiences in this hope of like fitting or mashing into this who, who I was allowed to be, which was inspirational, the inspirational disabled girl. And so, um, yeah, I mean, it, it basically led, led me to a pretty intense crisis point in my early twenties where, um, I talk about it just a barely little bit in the book, but like I ended up getting divorced really young. And, um, it was a pretty, um, bad situation. It wasn't like an easy seamless, like mutual decision. It was sort of like blowing up my life in a way. And, um, and, and in large part, it was because I, I was just operating under this, um, like trying to fit into a character that was not me. Um, it, it was not true to me. Um, it wasn't complete, it wasn't full.

Rebecca Taussig: And so, um, I spent a lot of my twenties and particularly like, as I was learning about disability studies and things like ableism, I did a lot of work in my twenties, sort of unpacking the fullness of me and letting all of the contradictive contradictory parts of me exist simultaneously. Um, so in the second part of your question about like, I, I don't remember how you worded it, but like, am I, am I over that? Or have I like, kind of become my own person, um, in spite of, or in contrast to these like one-dimensional tropes and, um, I would say yes and no, I would say yes in the sense that like, um, I'm not, I'm not trying to be Pollyanna. I'm not trying to be that one-dimensional person, but, um, I was, I have been really shocked by how motherhood has jarred me.

Rebecca Taussig: I, I, before becoming a mother, I felt like I had conquered that sort of like the power that those tropes had over me and that I was, I knew who I was, and I was this complicated person who had, you know, like all the twists and turns of, of the complexities of me and getting to be my own person. And then I became a mom and I was devastated that I wasn't that mom that I thought I should be. And right. So once again, I found like myself bumping up against a certain sort of trope and, and, and feeling really, um, insufficient and thrown by that. And so I've, I, I would say that, I think that I, I at least can recognize that that picture I have in my head of like the mom I should be is a fiction and, and a really harmful one. Um, but I think I'd be lying if I said that it was easy or that, um, it didn't have any sort of hold on me or that there weren't days when I, it felt like, um, like the mom that I was as a disabled, this disabled mom that I am, and all I'm so much more than a disabled mom, but like, whoever I am, um, is not sufficient in compared to this picture of what I should be. And, um, so it's, it's an ongoing thing, um, for me, for sure.

Doree Shafir: You know, we've, we've talked about like representation and portrayal of people with disabilities, and I'm wondering if you think, is, is there any TV show or movie or novel that you think gets disabled people right.

Rebecca Taussig: They, I love that question and I will, I just have to say, um, everybody keep your fingers crossed because, uh, we're currently like pitching a show. I'm working with some producers who really get the, the need for better disability representation. And they auctioned my book after it came out. And we've been kind of like out there pitching, um, uh, a very fictionalized version of my story that I think would be really cool. And I hope we get to make it, I think, um, part of what I found really appealing about this group of producers was that they, they, they wanna bring disabled creators into every part of the story making. So not just writers, but directors and costume designers and, um, All, all the part, cuz there's so much, when you think about a visual, there's so many parts of that making of that story.

Rebecca Taussig: And so wanting people who know the experience to be a part of every like nook and crus of that mm-hmm <affirmative> but in terms of shows that already exist, I always point people towards special Ryan Oconnor That's amazing. Wonderful. Yeah. So Ryan O'Connell wrote the memoir first and then they adapted it into this it's two seasons, like kind of mini series on Netflix and, and he actually is like the actor playing himself, um, which is so rare and special. And, um, and it's just a, it's just like such an honest, like hilarious, heartbreaking, all the parts that make us human, right? Like all the roller coaster's complications and contradictions of that. Um, but just like from this very specific and honest and true point of view. So I love, love that show. Um, there are like other other shows I feel like that sort of like get almost there or like do something well or interesting.

Rebecca Taussig: Um, speechless is another show that is at least like the actors. Um, I think his name is Micah Fowler maybe is playing, uh, a character who has the same disability that he has. And, um, the family in that, in that show just reminded me a lot of my family growing up in the ways that like, when you grow up with a disabled sibling, um, like they are not different to you at all. Like they're just as annoying as anyone else and they're just as human and you get jealous of them and you fight with them. And, um, all of the scrappiness of that just felt really true that, and I loved that a lot too. Um, but I, yeah, I think, I honestly think that, that there is about to be a lot more, um, I feel like Hollywood is, is really tuned into, and hearing people say like, there is not enough representation, it's not code representation. We need people who know the experience acting in these parts and creating these shows. And I think that that's, I think that we're on the cusp of a lot more of that happening, um, which is, is really exciting.

Kate Spencer: I hope so. And I hope your show gets made!

Rebecca Taussig: me too.

Doree Shafir: Yeah. I'll send, I'm sending, sending that out to the Universe universe.

Kate Spencer: <laugh> well, we're gonna end with a, a question that we also like to ask all our guests, but we sometimes forget to ask, so we're trying to be better about it, but do you have a skincare practice and do you have any products, skin products, beauty products that you love and want to share or recommend?

Rebecca Taussig: Okay. I prepared for this question, cuz I, I thought maybe you would ask me about skincare stuff and I'm like, so, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, uh, I'm unaware of, of anything like I'm so haphazard. However, um, I do have one skin CA like makeup product that I'm really excited about, um, that I started using, I don't know, like a year ago and I brought it so I wouldn't forget what it was called. Um, so it's, I it's the Ilia product and it's like the super serum skin tint with SPF in it and it is something special. Like when I, I just makes my skin feel different, um, when I put it on and it, and it, um, I feel like it's doing it. I feel like it's making my skin healthier somehow in general. I don't know if that's true, but it just feels really good. And, and it does what, I don't know. It seems like it's doing the job. I, uh, like years ago I ordered like one bottle of like citrus scrub oil Ilia on Amazon. I ordered one bottle of it and they sent me 12 <laugh> and I, so I've like been working my way through that. Oh my God. That shipment for years and feeling really like, really good about like, um, swindling, Amazon out of a little bit of, um, a little bit of money.

Kate Spencer: So let jeff Bezos buy your skincare

Rebecca Taussig: Products. Right. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. I will. Um, and so I've been using that forever and it, you know, like, it feels good too. I like the smell of it. Um, but yeah, this Ilias stuff is, is, is it works?

Kate Spencer: I love that stuff.

Doree Shafir: Okay. I was just gonna say Kate, you're a fan of that. Ilia

Kate Spencer: Am I, and it does. It's one of those like skin tins that also has like the serum elements. So you kind of feel like it's like a magic potion almost. Yeah. Like it makes your skin feel good. It's doing something and you look nice.

Rebecca Taussig: Yeah. It, it definitely like it's, it's working on multiple cylinders

Doree Shafir: That's right. I feel like I need to just, I need to go and try at IRL because I've never been able to find the right shade for me. That's so hard with that product. And so I've been like, Ugh, doesn't work for me, but I'm wondering if I just like, have not gotten the right shade.

Rebecca Taussig: Well also I will say like it, there is something interesting about this stuff where like, it takes a second to settle. Like it's not like when I put it on it first, it's like, woo. Really jarring. And then like you have to rub it and rub it and rub it. And it's sort of is like changing as it sinks in. So maybe, I don't know, maybe that's it could be part of, of the experiences. Like it, it it's, it is tricky to find the right one, I guess.

Doree Shafir: Wow. All right. Glad you seen you on this. Oh, um, well Rebecca, where can our listeners find you if they wanna kind of follow along with the work

Rebecca Taussig: That you do? Well, um, yeah, Instagram is like, I is like the only social media platform that, where I tend to show up. Um, so I'm at sitting_pretty, um, but I have a website too, which Kate spent some time on, I think. Um, so yeah, clearly there's and I need to, there's so much updating I need to do on it. I'm I'm not very, very on top of that. Um, but there is a lot there and I will continue to update it, but, um, just Rebeccataussig.com is my website and there's a, there's some, some links to syllabi there if you're interested among other things. So, um, yeah, that

Kate Spencer: Would be, you wanna imagine you're in your class with Rebecca? <laugh> go join me, looking at the syllabi.

Rebecca Taussig: I love that so much.

Doree Shafir: Um, well thank you so much for coming on the show. It was truly a pleasure to talk to you.

Rebecca Taussig: I loved your questions. Like thank you so much for such thoughtful, like wonderful questions. I really appreciate you inviting me on.

Kate Spencer: Thank you.

Doree Shafir: Thank you.

Kate Spencer: Well, I mean, look, we already did a lot of gushing, but

Doree Shafir: We did

Kate Spencer: That was a really such a fun interview. I mean again, like anytime it's so fun. Anytime I get down about, about things. I do remember that like part of my job is getting to talk to amazing people every week with you. It's like very lucky.

Doree Shafir: Aw. I know.

Kate Spencer: It's so cool. Like it is

Doree Shafir: It is Cool.

Kate Spencer: Good fortune.

Doree Shafir: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Kate. Um, Kate, how has your early bedtime stuff gone?

Kate Spencer: Uh, it's been going pretty well. Actually. I have been taking two little melatonin, one milligram. I forget how melatonin is measured, but I've been taking melatonin to really, um, regulate my body sleeping habits. Um, but yeah, I have been getting that sleep because as Doree has, has heard my hacking COVID cough and my general, like COVID tiredness is still pretty pervasive. So I'm still working on this rest. I'm gonna keep at it for a while.

Kate Spencer: There it is. There it is. There it is. Yeah. So in line with the that's that spirit, uh, this week, my intention is just not to push it because, and I, I think I've spoken a little bit about this, but one thing I really have now understand is that COVID recovery continues like after you're done testing positive and I, I still am having these kind of lingering, uh, symptoms or my body still just a little tired. And I also had hand surgery this week, so I tend to get like, I tend to push myself a little too hard. Yeah. So I'm going really try to take a step back and honor the idea of like, of rest and not pushing too hard.

Doree Shafir: I like this.

Kate Spencer: I hope I stick to it. I hope

Doree Shafir: I hope so, too.

Kate Spencer: All right. So over to you, birthday queen, you wanted to start a new book last week.

Doree Shafir: Kate, I kind of failed in this. I, you know, I've been, um, you know, in my newsletter we do a day in the life and, um, there was one, a couple weeks ago where the person I profiled said that she plays quortal and global in addition to word,

Kate Spencer: Oh boy.

Doree Shafir: And I was like, you know, I'd seen people tweet about these. And I was like, ah, I don't need to get into this. And then I was finally like, well, maybe I'll just see what this is about.

Kate Spencer: <laugh> oh boy, I've done it a few times, but not. So

Doree Shafir: Now, now I'm like deep into quortal. <laugh> and global.

Kate Spencer: I don't know what is global, the geography one where you have to like, guess the country.

Doree Shafir: Yeah.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. And quortal is the one with the four quadrants,

Doree Shafir: Right? Four quadrants. Yeah. And you've done portal. You have nine tries to get all four words. Wow. Look

Kate Spencer: At you. You really are ordering, you know, there's a fish there's F of a Phish version of Wordle or fertile guess

Doree Shafir: You would call it. I think I probably will not. You

Kate Spencer: Don't wanna try that one?

Doree Shafir: <laugh> no, I think I'm good, but thank you. No, I

Kate Spencer: Just wanted to make sure It's on your radar.

Doree Shafir: Um, appreciate it. Appreciate it. So, yeah, so I haven't started a new book and I'm still, you know, still doing my traditional crosswords. I love a crossword. What can I say?

Kate Spencer: Like really keeps your brain sharp. I think this is great.

Doree Shafir: So yeah, so I have not started a new book, but I, by the time this airs, I will have already returned, but I'm going away for my birthday, with my family, um, Sunday to Wednesday. And maybe I'll bring a book.

Kate Spencer: Oh, you should. Maybe

Doree Shafir: I'll just like, enjoy my VAcay You're

Kate Spencer: Going to a Beachside village.

Doree Shafir: I'm going to a Beachside village.

Kate Spencer: Bring a, bring a book, bring a book. Yeah yeah.

Doree Shafir: Yeah. Um, so yeah, so that's, that's my intention.

Kate Spencer: Well, I hope you have a wonderful rest. You're

Doree Shafir: thank you so much

Kate Spencer: I like this intention for you. Just enjoy this break, relax, feel your bones. What does that mean? I don't know, but you know what I mean? Like just, you know, experience pleasure in your body as you just celebrate yourself, I'm really going. I'm really going, going for it here. I'm not quite sure what I'm saying.

Doree Shafir: Um, I, I appreciate it. I appreciate the sentiment.

Kate Spencer: Normally, when I start rambling like this, it's probably time to wrap up the podcast.

Doree Shafir: All right, let's do that.

Kate Spencer: Forever. 35 is hosted and produced by Doree shafrier and Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Huno. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast. Thank you so much for being here.

Doree Shafir: Bye.