Episode 207: Let Me Hear Your Body Talk with Danielle Friedman
Doree receives disappointing news from her publisher and Kate breathes deep in a breathwork workshop. Then, Danielle Friedman, author of Let’s Get Physical, joins them on the pod to talk about how a story that started out questioning if barre classes are just 50 minutes of Kegels turned into her book, what she thinks the word expand can mean in fitness, and if she thinks we’ll ever be able to separate diet culture from fitness.
Photo Credit: Lindsay May for Classic Kids Photography
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Transcript
Kate: Well, hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No. But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: Welcome. Welcome. If you would like to check out anything we mention on the show, you can visit our podcast Forever35 ... I've done such a good job reading this copy and I messed it up. You can visit our website forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mention. We are on Twitter, @Forever35pod. Instagram is @Forever35podcast. And there's a world of Forever35 on Meta's Facebook, where you can find our group and the password is serums.
Doree: You can also sign up for our newsletter. Forever35podcast.com/newsletter goes out twice a month. And you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: Whoops, sorry, I muted myself because I'm paranoid about the dog making noises. I'm in my office recording, but I have our puppy in here with me and of course every toy she has, I think it's going to be quiet and it's like crunch, crunch, crunch. Like bing bong. It's just crazy. So it's not good for podcast recording, but for a variety of family personnel reasons, the dog is in here with me today so I apologize. Doree, I really hate creating an unprofessional atmosphere to this show, but sometimes life just happens.
Doree: You know what? Sometimes life just happens and you just got to roll with it sometimes.
Kate: Well, shall we talk about rolling with things? Because I feel like you've had real shitty hand and you mentioned it in our show notes. I'm curious if you wanted to delve in.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, if you follow me on social media this is old news to you, but I got some news last week that my paperback is not going to be published. It was supposed to be published June 28th. A year after my hardcover came out. And we had approved jacket copy and everything was moving forward. And then I got an email from my editor that was like, because of the printing crisis in publishing right now, which if you haven't heard about is a very real thing that's been going on since basically the beginning of the pandemic. A couple of big printing plants that used to print a lot of books for major American publishers just closed down. And so there's been a lot of issues getting books printed. And then things like books ... There were books that actually fell into the ocean.
Kate: Wild.
Doree: There was a container that had some copies of two new cookbooks that were supposed to come out in the next few months and the container fell off the ship and the books are at the bottom of the ocean.
Kate: That is pretty ... Really upsetting.
Doree: It's pretty wild.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: And so they couldn't just print new books immediately. So both books got pushed back by months. Anyway, so there's that factor. And then, so she was like, they basically had to take a really hard look at everything they're publishing and essentially it seems like if your book isn't a huge best seller, they're just sort of like, "Sorry." So yeah, so that was like a real bummer. I talked to my agent about it and she was like, "This has been happening. You're definitely not the only one." And it sucks.
Doree: So at first I took it super personally and now I'm taking slightly less personally. And I said this on social media, but I feel like it's important to just be transparent about disappointments and when things don't go the way that you thought they were going to. Especially on social media, it's very easy to think that everyone's life is super duper.
Kate: Oh yeah.
Doree: And you don't see the stuff that doesn't go right. And I think especially for anyone in a creative field. The ratio of disappointments to good news, it's very out of whack.
Doree: So yeah. So I just wanted to share that and just talk a little bit too, about how of course in the grand scheme of things this is a relatively insignificant blip. We are in a global pandemic where hundreds of thousands of people in the United States have died. People are sick. People have long COVID. Kids are wearing masks in schools. There are many bigger issues than the fact that my paperback is not coming out. But I do think we can still acknowledge personal disappointments and just register that yes, I can ... Both things can be true. I can be sad about the state of the world, but I can also be sad about this very individual thing that has happened to me.
Kate: I think it would be weird if you were not sad.
Doree: Thanks Kate.
Kate: I agree with everything you said. And I don't even personally think you need to qualify it in the context of things, but I understand why and I do feel like there is always a narrative or someone coming in to be like, "But you're blessed." And it's like, yes, but I'm also having a massive professional disappointment right now.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: It's valid to be in those feelings and to grieve. There's a grieving of the expectation of what was going to be. And I also understand the feelings of taking it personally. I think it's so hard when you're in the business of making something and then having to sell the thing that you made. And I'm thinking about this also because I'm dealing with that right now and it's very weird.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: It's hard for it not to feel personal because the thing that you created is so personal.
Doree: Totally, totally. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. That's just a drag and I would say ... And the other thing that I am bummed about is I was excited for the paperback to come out, partly because there are people who couldn't afford to buy it in hardcover.
Kate: Yeah. Totally.
Doree: I wanted my book to be a paperback original. Hardcovers are very expensive. But for myriad reasons out of my control it came out as a hardcover, which is great, but there was always the promise of it also coming out as a paperback that is a more accessible format for people who want to read it, who don't want an ebook, who don't want an audio book, but want to read it on paper, but who can't afford a hardcover. A paperback is much more accessible. So that was also a bummer that that has now been taken away. The other thing that I have been bummed about is my book came out during ... I don't know. What are we calling it? Season two of the pandemic?
Kate: Yes.
Doree: People were getting vaccinated and people were talking about hot vax summer. But when we were planning my book launch people still really weren't doing stuff in person. People certainly were not planning book tours. And so I did virtual. I did those virtual events, which were great and in terms of accessibility were also great because I did get to reach a lot of people who wouldn't have been able to come to a live event. But there is something really cool about a live event and that is also one of the fun promises of writing a book, which is such a solitary endeavor. That you publish it and you get to celebrate it with people, with readers and with friends. And I didn't have a book party. I didn't have any in person readings. And so that was a bummer. And I was like, "Well, when my paperback comes out I'll be able to do some of that." I had already ... Book Soup had already been like, "If we're doing in person stuff we can have a reading for you with your paperback release." Because they've been so supportive of the book and that is now not going to happen because I'm not going to have a paperback release. And so that's just been sort of like ... Another one of those things where it's just a disappointment. That's it.
Kate: Well it's like layer upon layer of things. Yeah.
Doree: Yeah. Totally. So I don't know. A couple people were like, "You can still have a party. You can have a one year post publication party."
Kate: And were you like, "Eh."?
Doree: I mean, there were a few people who offered to host parties for me, which was really sweet, but I don't know. We'll see. I don't want to say anything is off the table but-
Kate: I was going to see if you wanted to do a party.
Doree: You were?
Kate: Yeah. I was Anthony about it. And he was like, "Maybe wait because is it a little annoying when someone's just wanting ... You're just experiencing the disappointment and someone comes in, it's like, 'Let's make it better and solve it with this thing.'" So I kept my mouth shut.
Doree: Oh, Kate.
Kate: But if you want to host a party, we could do it in my backyard.
Doree: That's so nice.
Kate: I mean, you already have many offers.
Doree: But you have a book coming out.
Kate: Yeah. But mine come's out in-
Doree: I should be hosting a party for you.
Kate: No, I don't like parties. I get anxiety. The fact that you were sad that you're not having a book party, in my brain it's like, oh ... I'm excited to do in-person signings a lot but when a party ... I had a hard time enjoying my wedding. I don't like a birthday party.
Doree: Interesting. Okay.
Kate: I don't know. Not that I don't want to be celebrated.
Doree: Right. But just not in that environment.
Kate: Yeah. I don't know if I would be able to relax and enjoy a party in my honor. I don't know if it would feel good for me. But my book comes out in March, yours would be in June. Plus it coincides kind with your birthday. I mean, look, I had a lot of thoughts going on about the-
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Yeah. TMI.
Doree: No, but that makes me feel really good. Thank you.
Kate: Oh, I'm glad.
Doree: So, yeah. So I guess TLDR. If you are waiting for the paperback of my book, it's not coming and hopefully you can just buy the hardcover or the ebook or the audio book. And this is also a good reminder, especially with Kate's book coming out. Really the best way to support authors, if it's within your means, is to buy their books. Because this is the way books will keep getting published. And do we only want a world where the only books out there are by James Patterson's factory?
Kate: You decide listeners.
Doree: That was not a rhetorical question.
Kate: No, we don't. I agree and I-
Doree: With all due respect to James Patterson, of course and his many collaborators.
Kate: Yeah. I appreciate the plug Doree. I'm in major go time in terms of book promotion, and every pre-order is a massive help. And I'm also signing and personalizing copies if you pre-order from Vroman's or The Ripped Bodice. So if you want me to scribble your name with a heart, please-
Doree: And links to that are in the show notes.
Kate: Thank you, Doree. I appreciate your generous promotion.
Doree: Of course, Kate.
Kate: Disappointment is hard.
Doree: Disappointment is really hard.
Kate: I think I texted this to you, but I really appreciated that you shared.
Doree: Thank you.
Kate: And you know what, we received some nice listener emails too that were directed solely at you about it too. But it's very hard being vulnerable in that way and sharing disappointment. I think you make a good point about social media, where we only want to present our successes right? Like everything's going great.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: I am killing it. When the truth is we all have moments where that's just not what's happening.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Kate: Well, I mean, the nice thing is ... Well, no, I don't have a good segue. There is no nice thing. It just sucks. I'm sorry.
Doree: It just sucks.
Kate: It just sucks. And I want to make sure that you have space both as my friend and also my professional partner to just be in your feelings and-
Doree: Thank you. Thank you Kate.
Kate: Not have to ... I think one thing that also happens when we experience disappointment ... Maybe you don't have this, but we have the urge to not let on that we're disappointed. You know?
Doree: Yes. Totally.
Kate: Not fully admit to the ... Just be like, "Oh, it's fine. It just happens. It sucks."
Doree: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Kate: And not really share the weight of how sad we are and how angry and frustrated and upset. So I want to make sure you have that space.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah. But Kate, it seems like you have found something that sort of helps you navigate those disappointments.
Kate: I don't know if it's a thing I'll do a lot, but I took a breathwork workshop last night.
Doree: Color me intrigued.
Kate: You know what, I actually think you should try it the next time it's offered. It's an acquaintance who offered it to a group of women that we're friends with and they teach the breathing practice of a man named David Elliot. I had never heard this person's name until last night. But if you want to Google the origin of this breathwork that I was doing, it's from this dude named David Elliot. Now, I've done breathwork before, especially with my yoga practice. It's called Pranayama. And I like doing breathing. I actually enjoy focusing on the breath more than I enjoy just trying to meditate. And I know they go hand in hand, but I enjoy doing breathing practices a lot. And I find doing four, seven, eight breathing really helps me calm my anxiety. You can give that a google. My kids do that.
Kate: Anyway, so I took this workshop and it was really invigorating. And everybody had really different experiences. And there's a lot of emotional release that came up for people. And for me it just felt ... Sometimes I've done a breathing or a lying meditation and I'll fall asleep. You get super relaxed. And in this, I felt electrified. I felt a lot of physical sensation that was really interesting. So the idea is that you're moving energy around and out of the body. Yeah. It was cool. It's a bit of an LA woo situation, but at this point what's not LA woo? You know?
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Look, we live in LA. I mean, you can't avoid it at this point. So yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Doree: I haven't done anything like that. I miss doing that stuff in person.
Kate: I do too. I miss stuff like that. I really, really do. Just being in a room with people and it being quiet.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: And there's nice energy. I agree there's something nice about doing it in your own space and really leaning into the solitude, but there is also something really nice about doing it with other people. And there's a nice energy in the room and I do miss that.
Kate: And it's an intentional space.
Doree: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Kate: You don't have your laundry basket next to you, which is what I was-
Doree: Totally. Yes.
Kate: You can set the scene a little bit better when you-
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And you're leaving your home. It was so weird too. I kept telling Anthony. I was like, "At 8:00 I'm going to do my breathing class." And he thought I was leaving to go do it. And I was like, "You still know we're in a pandemic and this involves huffing air out of our mouths. This is released ... We're not doing this in person yet."
Doree: Totally.
Kate: But sometimes it's easy to forget.
Doree: It is. It is. Well, Kate-
Kate: Yes, my friend.
Doree: We should tell our listeners about our very cool and interesting guest this week.
Kate: Yeah. This was a really fun conversation. So we got to speak to Danielle Friedman. She's an award winning journalist who specializes in telling stories at the intersection of health, sexuality, and culture. Three of our favorite things. And her first book, which was just published in January is called Let's Get Physical: How Women Discovered Exercise And Reshaped The World. And it is a great book. Our own Doree Shafrir blurbed the book.
Doree: I sure did.
Kate: Meaning she read it and provided an endorsement. So Doree is a fan. Danielle's writing has appeared in the New York Times, New York Magazine's The Cut, Vogue, Glamour, Washington Post to name but a few. She's a freelance development editor. She's just done a million things. She also worked on Fusion TV's Peabody nominated television show Sex Right Now.
Doree: Yeah, she's really interesting. Her book is fascinating and gets into stuff about the history of fitness and exercise that I had no idea about. And then brings it into today by talking about the connections between fitness and social justice. It's a really interesting read and I really enjoyed our conversation. So we are going to take a short break and when we come back, we will be chatting with Danielle.
Doree: Well, we are so excited today to have Danielle Friedman on the podcast. She wrote a book that I love so much that I blurbed it. So we're really excited to talk to you about self care and fitness and your book, and anything else you want to talk about. So welcome to Forever35.
Danielle: Thank you so much for having me on and thank you again for blurbing the book. I really appreciate it.
Doree: Yeah, I was happy to be asked, so thank you. Well, Danielle, you probably know that we like to start our interviews by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So we'd love to know what yours is that you want to talk about.
Danielle: I am very liberal in my seeking out of self care. I feel like I indulge in massages and manicures and pedicures and various forms of exercise, which I know we will get to. But I actually think what feels like the purest form of self care that I practice right now just involves my morning routine. I never used to be a morning person. I was very much a night owl. And then since having my son, who's now three, almost three and a half, it has sort of forced me to become a morning person. But my ritual of just waking up before the sun rises, ideally between 5:00 and 5:30, making myself a cup of coffee in a mug that I really enjoy, that makes me happy because of the saying or design or whatever. And just sort of sitting in that pre-dawn dark and peace and allowing my brain and body to wake up while drinking a cup of coffee has just become a really essential way for me to start the day and allows me to start the day feeling centered and calm and like I'm the one, as much as possible, steering the ship, so to speak.
Kate: I feel like not enough emphasis is given to the power of a good mug. We definitely all of our favorite mugs, right? As you were saying that, I was like, oh yeah, I have my favorite mug that if it's not, if it's in the dishwasher, I'm visibly annoyed and let down.
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's kind of a bummer. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah, yeah. There's a hierarchy of mugs. And I just wanted to take a moment to note that. We have not really contemplated that yet on Forever35.
Danielle: I've sort of inadvertently accumulated a collection of mugs that I love. I think maybe there's some subliminal association between loving coffee so much and loving that routine and then loving the mug. But it's nice because usually even if my all time favorite mug is in the dishwasher, I have a backup that makes me happy.
Kate: Got the B list.
Doree: Kate, I didn't tell you this, but I recently got a new mug.
Kate: Oh.
Doree: I got a Yeti mug.
Kate: Ooh, I see. But you're using that for daytime drinking? Or is that more for travel?
Doree: It's for daytime drinking. It's one of their sort of squat-
Kate: Coffee cups?
Doree: Coffee mugs. Yeah.
Kate: I have one of those too.
Doree: Oh my goodness.
Kate: I mean, of course I do. But I also like a standard ceramic mug for my morning coffee. I love a mug. And now I'm only going to talk. I've been getting up at 5:30 with my dog and so I'm having the same 5:30 coffee time right now. And I love it. I love it so much.
Doree: I'm impressed that both of you can drink the coffee quickly enough that it doesn't get cold in a regular mug. That's my problem. That's why I use a Yeti or another sort of thermosy mug because I like to just sort of slowly sip my coffee and if I put it in a regular mug, then it gets cold.
Kate: I tend to be chugging and then adding more warm coffee to keep it warm. It's not the best.
Doree: Oh, okay. Danielle, what about you?
Danielle: I've just actually never been that bothered by lukewarm coffee, which is maybe a blessing.
Doree: Okay. All right. Okay.
Danielle: But I also tend to, without even realizing it, I am kind of like chugging it during that first 30 minutes.
Kate: Yeah.
Danielle: Drinking it with gusto.
Doree: Okay. All right.
Kate: Is that a practice that you got into after having a child? Because oftentimes, I would say most of the time, when one has a child, especially in those early years, you're waking up very early. Or is this something you did pre-parenthood?
Danielle: First of all, when, as I'm trying to think about pre-parenthood, it is all a blur. Between the pandemic and having a toddler. Like what did I do? I know that before I went freelance about six years ago, when I was working in an office, it was definitely not something I did. I would like press snooze five times and then frantically rush to get myself ready and out the door. But once I became a freelance journalist, I definitely felt more of a sense of control over my mornings and my time and I could kind of ease into things a little bit more. And I'm very fortunate because my son has always been really good about hanging out in his crib until I'm ready to go get him. Which I've heard from other parents is not common. So I'll hear him sometimes singing to himself or just doing his thing. But for the most part, I've been able to carve out those few hours before our day really starts.
Doree: I love that. Well, semi related to the discussion of your son, but also related to your book, you ... I want to talk a little bit about ... Well, actually I want to talk a lot about your book. But first of all, in the introduction to your book, you write that it wasn't until you got pregnant that you "began to truly appreciate the power of movement and strength". And then you write about using physical fitness after you gave birth to kind of feel in control of your body again. Could you talk about that process? And I'm also curious how you feel about your body now.
Danielle: Yes. Well, for me, my childbirth experience was a little bit harrowing. I had a normal pregnancy until around 34 and a half weeks. And then I all of a sudden developed preeclampsia and had to have an emergency C-section. And so my son was born four and a half weeks early. And that experience was very ... It was harrowing and it required a long recovery process and healing process. There was the physical recovery and there was the transition to new parenthood. The sort of postpartum recovery or transition that a lot of women go through. But just getting over the shock of what happened was a long journey for me. And so I know I'm very fortunate in this way, but it was really the first time that I had felt ... I hadn't felt as in control of my body. I had felt like maybe ... This is a strong word, but like my body had kind of betrayed me a little bit.
Danielle: And I say that with all of the gratitude in the world for the way that things turned out in the end. But in any case, it was a new feeling for me. And so I'm a lifelong runner, very slow runner. I've always enjoyed being active and I've dabbled in different types of workouts. But it was during that postpartum period and really the year after having my son that I, like I write in the book, just began to appreciate feeling strong and using my body in a proactive, powerful way more than I ever had and on a much deeper level. It also allowed me to kind of reconnect with my pre-motherhood identity, which was really important for me during that time. And just muscle memory, I think can be very powerful in reminding us of who we were and who we've been at different points in our lives and how we've moved at different times in our lives. So it really was part of the healing process for me.
Kate: And can you talk about your relationship to fitness throughout your life? I mean, how has it changed and developed on a personal level, I guess, separate from your research as a journalist?
Danielle: And I should say, my personal connection to exercise was definitely a big part of why I was excited to take on this project and the topic resonated for me on so many different levels. I am a lifelong runner. I actually got into running mostly thanks to my dad who is just a very ... He's like the most enthusiastic passionate runner and has never been about speed or competition. He just sort of believes in it in an almost philosophical, meditative way. So seeing his enthusiasm and joy for it growing up, made me interested in it. I tried to run track and cross country in high school, but I was not fast. And I could only deal with that for a season of each. And so it took me a while to come back to it in my 20s and 30s. And I write in the book that even though a part of me loved it just for the activity itself and I was influenced by my dad, I was also equally influenced by the idea that running was a way to become thin, look like the women or the girls, the classmates, the whoever that I idolized. So that I felt like if I looked more like them parts of my life would maybe be different.
Danielle: And then, yeah, so it was really heading into my late 30s as I have gotten older, as I became a mother, and as I just have gained some perspective on my life that it's taken on a more important role as a mental health tool and a true form of self care. Also, I do love bar and I feel barre will forever hold a very special place in my heart because it kind provided the origin story for the entire book project. Yeah.
Doree: Can we talk a little bit about barre in particular?
Kate: Barre.
Danielle: Yes, please.
Doree: So you had written a story for The Cut in 2018. Is that right?
Danielle: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doree: About barre and that, like you said, that kind of was the impetus for putting together this book. What is it about ... Well, I guess two questions. What is it about barre that you love so much that gives you so much fulfillment? And can you talk also a little bit about the origins of barre for the benefit of people who may not have read your article or your book? What was so ... I'm kind of chuckling because I did read your book so I do know how the origins barre. But what was so surprising and interesting about those origins that made you want to write a whole book about fitness?
Danielle: Sure. Well, I'll start with the first question, what I personally enjoy about barre. So I had been warned before I ever stepped into a studio that it was deceptively hard, incredibly hard, even though it's ... So it's a strength based workout for those who don't know, which is largely performed at a ballet barre and on a mat and you're doing these teeny tiny little resistance movements that have a way of sort of working like every muscle in your body and muscles you literally didn't know you had or places that you didn't know, you could get sore in. And so I found that the combination of just the focus that barre required to kind of like ... It's kind of complicated to hear all the cues and to try to follow along. Combined with the challenge of it, it was almost meditative because when I was in that room, I couldn't think about anything else. And whenever I leave a studio, and in those early days especially, I would just feel sort of like ... The word that comes to mind, honestly, is cleansed. There was something cathartic about it and I would feel light on my feet and I would just feel very alive.
Danielle: And I also was kind of predisposed. There's been some funny writing about barre and I owe a debt of gratitude to the women writers who have written about barre before me. Jessi Klein has a hilarious section about barre in her book and Primates of Park Avenue. So there was this little intrigue to it. But getting back to the origins of my book. So started doing barre. I really enjoyed it. I also noticed that the class was pretty much built on the pelvic tilt and the tuck. So throughout every move, the instructor's saying, "Tuck your pelvis." And there were other moves where we were lying on the ground with our pelvises thrusting in the air.
Kate: I know it well.
Danielle: Yeah. And I thought it was also kind of hilarious that everyone was doing this with a straight face. No one was acknowledging that this was sort of funny in a comically erotic way. And so at that time I thought I wanted to write a story about looking into whether there were actual sexual health benefits to barre. The original story was going to be like, is a barre class just 50 minutes of kegels? So as I started investigating, I stumbled on the story of Lotte Berk, who invented barre in 1959. The contemporary workout really traces back to her. And Lotte Berk is this incredibly larger than life, complicated, deeply flawed and fascinating figure. She had been a dancer in Germany. She was Jewish and she had to flee the Nazis in the 1930s.
Danielle: She fled to London. When she struggled to find work, she ended up creating this workout as a way to earn a living. And she was in her 40s by the time she opened up her studio. She was also ... And this was really the focus of my piece for The Cut. She was this free love revolutionary. She was extremely open about sex.
Kate: Wow.
Danielle: She was in an open marriage and then she was in ... I mean, and that was just the beginning. She was very, very forthright about her lovers. She wanted her workout to be a way for women to connect with their sexuality and improve their sex lives. And she named many of the moves in class these very explicit names. There was the prostitute and there was a move called the sex. So this was right as the sex ... It was pre sexual revolution, heading into the sexual revolution.
Danielle: And then as the swinging 60s took off in London, she became the perfect figure for that time and became a local celebrity. So her story was just ... And that's just the tip of the iceberg. But her story was so fascinating and unexpected to me. And I think in particular, because barre today, there are these huge barre franchises and it can feel kind of corporate. It can feel a little sterile, a little prim. And the contrast between that and where it started was just really interesting to me. And yes, I would go on to discover that there were these Lotte like figures and in many cases fascinating origin stories behind so many of the workouts that we do today.
Kate: Wow. Isn't it called The Lotte method? I feel like I used to see that. I guess I just used to see her referred to anytime I went to some sort of variation of this, which in LA, pre pandemic, there was a barre studio on every corner. I mean, it became such a phenomenon in the aughts.
Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. There was, in the early 1970s, an American expat who had been taking her classes in London, brought Lotte's method to New York City to the upper east side and named the studio The Lotte Berk Method. And that became this ... It was this hugely popular with sort of upper east side influencers at the time with celebrities and socialites and writers. And it was at that studio that many of the people who went on to create the most popular barre franchises today got their start. They trained there, they were instructors there. So it really is, in many ways, it's a pretty direct ... You can trace the contemporary industry back to that studio, which traces back to Lotte.
Doree: What do you think someone like Lotte or some other of the early fitness pioneers that you write about in your book like Bonnie Prudden, what do you think they would think about the new awareness of health at every size, body positivity, body neutrality, et cetera? Because they seem ... Well, whatever. I'll let you respond.
Danielle: It's a great and ... Great question. And I think the answer is so ... There are many layers to it.
Doree: Yeah.
Danielle: When Bonnie Prudden was first starting out-
Kate: Prudden. Thank you.
Danielle: A lot of people say Prudden. It's a tricky one. So she really rose to prominence in the late 1950s and 1960s. And she was very much ahead of her time in promoting vigorous exercise for women and encouraging women to develop muscles and to use their bodies in a really physical way that was deemed by some as unladylike. And even though she herself bucked all kinds of gender norms ... She was a award winning pioneering mountain climber and skier. She kind of, anyways, ran with the boys. She also sold fitness to women as a path to weight loss and to shaping their figure and to being attractive.
Danielle: In one of her books ... This one happened to be an instant bestseller. How To Keep Slender And Fit After 30. Which again, every time I hear that title ... After 30? Okay. But she advises that readers basically strip down in front of the mirror and take a really close look at all of their so-called flaws so they know what they need to fix. So one way of looking at that is that ... And Bonnie recognized that selling strength for strength's sake to women at that time, or to the culture at large at that time would never have gone over and selling fitness as a way to become more attractive was more palatable, was smart business. I'm sure not appreciating the sort of destructive aspects of that mentality. I think she genuinely thought she was doing people a service.
Danielle: And actually that, strip down naked in front of a mirror, assess flaws and bulges and whatever, that was a ... I saw that often in fitness guides throughout the second half of the 20th century and particularly around mid century. But what we now know about fitness and fatness and body size ... The way that the medical research around exercise and fit bodies has evolved ... I think she was working with what she had at the time. And if she were still around today and looking at some of the updated research that basically indicates that body size and fatness is not the problem, I'd like to think that she would adjust her ways of thinking accordingly.
Kate: You raised an interesting point because ... And I think one thing that you address so well and that I've had a hard time wrapping my brain around is this idea of enjoying fitness but removed from diet culture and body image. And you speak with some women in your book who are more focused on this. But I'm curious after all the research that you've done, how are we able to or how do you think ... And maybe this is not possible. We can enjoy fitness and seek it out and find pleasure in it without it being related I guess to diet culture in a broader sense? Is that even possible?
Danielle: I do think it's possible. I think every-
Kate: Okay. That makes me feel better.
Danielle: I do. I do. Yeah. I think every woman is sort of ... Every person is on their own journey with this. And for me, part of why I wanted to embark on this project was just to gain a deeper understanding into how fitness and beauty culture and diet culture became so intertwined. And I say this in the book. Even knowing everything that I now do after spending four years studying the history of fitness and being a feminist myself, I still am often motivated to exercise because I want to lose a few pounds or look differently in clothes or wear a different type of outfit. I mean, on one level ... We know from scientific research that we're most likely to stick with an exercise regimen when there's a really clear cut incentive. And I think because of the way we've been conditioned, wearing jeans that fit a little bit more loosely is a very tangible goal. Whereas warding off disease, achieving wellness, which is so amorphous can just feel much less motivating.
Danielle: I'm still figuring this out and grappling with this every day, but I think that at least going into our workouts with a really clear eyed understanding of what about them ... Of our motivations, if we want to change the way we look, why we want to change the way we look, what we're really hoping to ... If you can take that a step further, what we're really hoping to achieve by doing that. And honing in on the parts that make us just feel really good. The parts that make us feel proud of ourselves and improve our mental health are totally devoid of shame. I think that's a good place to start. And just sort of following that feeling. And maybe that means training for a marathon, maybe that means giving up your HITT workouts and just trying to take a nice walk every day. I think it will mean different things for different women. Different people.
Kate: Okay. So let's take a pause and we will be right back.
Kate: Okay. Here we are.
Doree: Can you talk a little bit about some of the women in your book or not in your book who are doing important work in the field of fitness as a social justice issue and how that has become more important in the last few years?
Danielle: Absolutely. Yeah. So the first chapter of my book is titled Reduce and that's the Bonnie Prudden era when reduce was a euphemism for losing weight. And the last chapter of my book is Expand. And that was very intentional. And as I worked on the book, Expand came to have many different meanings. Expanding idea of what a fit body looks like, who has access to fitness and who fitness is for. And what fitness itself looks like. What the activities ... What counts as exercise. So that chapter is really the most forward looking one and it's where I do talk about the contemporary class of pioneers who see fitness as a social justice issue. I interviewed in a profile, Jessamyn Stanley, who would be ... I know she has become a superstar, very familiar to probably a lot of your listeners. Jessamyn is ... She self identifies as fat. She's queer. She's a woman of color. And for her, she has written and spoken a lot about how much she has gained from her yoga practice. And for those who don't know, yoga is her primary form of movement. And she has reaped these tremendous rewards. And so she is trying to create greater access and opportunities for more people so that they can benefit in the same way.
Danielle: I also profile Sadie Kurzban who started 305 Fitness. And she feels similarly about the power of movement to basically ... She describes it as arming the rebels. But just to in a very true sense, empower people. And I'm very hesitant to use that word because I think it gets very overused. But it boils down to when people feel good about themselves, when they have that physical competence and physical confidence, they're in a better position to be engaged citizens and also just to be happy, healthy people out in the world.
Danielle: There are so many different facets to this because fitness in this country, it's very much still a privilege and not a right. And yet at the same time, we're very we're still pretty quick as a society to make assessments and to judge people's sort of inner worth and moral character based on their outer appearance. And that's frustrating on so many levels and unjust but in particular because there are so many social factors that prevent people from exercising and from engaging. Using their bodies in ways that promote both mental and physical health. So I really believe what these ... And those are just two of the people. Two of the growing army of people who see fitness that way who are working just to create greater access.
Kate: How about the relationship to fitness and spirituality? Because I do think a lot of people ... You were speaking about your father and his relationship to running and how it really becomes this meditative practice. It's such a fine line because in so many ways, there can be a spiritual connection through movement. Then there can also be cultural appropriation and whitewashing and all sorts of other things. And so what do you see as some of the positives and negatives when it comes to that connection between spirituality, mindfulness and fitness?
Danielle: Well, yeah. So over the past few decades participation in organized religion has been on the decline and just the number of young people, the percentage who identify as being observant has been on the decline. And so to a large extent, fitness leaders and gyms have risen to take their place for many people. The fitness leader and guru as life guru and spiritual guru has become a real paradigm. And that can be very helpful for some people, but it can also be very dangerous because some of these people have great intentions and know what they're doing and others not so much.
Danielle: So I think there is still sort of a ... It's a good idea to have a gut check if you're somebody who finds yourself being really drawn in by a fitness leader who dabbles in the spiritual. Like making sure that they are positively contributing to your life and the way you feel about yourself and your goals. And just remembering that they're just people who in some cases have risen to the top of their field based on sort of force and cult of personality.
Danielle: I do think with exercise, it's very important to find your people and find your thing. And if you try something that just feels way too woo woo, there is likely something out there for you that would be a good fit. But it does get pretty fraught, especially when you talk about yoga and cultural appropriation.
Kate: Yeah. I've been doing a lot of reflecting on that myself and just figuring out my part in that. It's been very illuminating. There's a lot of learning I feel like I have left to do in that area. It's tricky.
Doree: Danielle, before we wrap up I would love to just hear about some of the research and reporting you did for the book. Because you talk about so many things, so many aspects of fitness that I feel like we take for granted today like the sports bra. And I'd love to hear a little bit about that process and just also generally, what were some of the more surprising things you learned?
Danielle: My research for the book was so much fun. I feel very fortunate because I really did love every aspect of the process of researching and writing this book. And so the research sort of fell into three or four categories. I interviewed a number of people that we would consider fitness legends. I'm very grateful because I interviewed so many that they didn't even all make it into the final narrative. But it was still great to hear their stories. I interviewed everyday women who lived through the history in these pages or who taught aerobics or barre at a local level. I did a review of scholarly writing into fitness, feminism, body image, all of the themes that I talk about. And then I did a tremendous amount of archival research. And if I were to turn my screen just a little bit ... If I were to pan out, you would see I've sort of accumulated this massive library of vintage fitness guides, tapes, record which I can't get enough of. I've always really been fascinated by archives and particularly archives that deal with 20th century women and feminism and so that part was just really, really fun. Especially to see how the language around women and women's bodies and norms evolved through the decades.
Danielle: As far as what was surprising, on a broad level, I mean, at the beginning of this project I was definitely surprised by how recent so much of this history is. Because women's fitness is so ubiquitous today. It's such a massive industry. It can feel like it was always here. And women always had the same opportunities that they do today. But I interviewed many, many women who grew up in the '50s, anywhere from the '40s to the '60s and so many of them talked to me about how even if they had been active as little girls, once they hit puberty it really was taboo to use their bodies in the same way that men did when it came to physical activities, sports and exercise. So the recentness of the history, some of the myths that were so pervasive back when my book begins. Like the fact that if you pushed yourself too hard, your uterus would fall out. That one gets me every time.
Danielle: Yeah. There were these just hidden histories woven within the larger history that I was telling. The creation of the sports bra. The fact that it wasn't created until 1977 really did ... Or invented, I should say blew my mom. I had no idea that women were not allowed to run an Olympic marathon until 1984. I mean, that's to me, just shockingly recent. And I loved learning about also how interconnected so many of the players in the industry were. Like who influenced who. And I wanted to really create that cohesive narrative to show how one thing evolved into the next and what was happening more broadly in the country at that time was influencing fitness culture. So hopefully readers will find that there are a lot of delightful little surprises sprinkled throughout.
Kate: Yeah. Doree and I are both from Boston and women weren't allowed to run the Boston marathon until the '70s.
Danielle: '72. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And that's bonkers. And then you think about how ... I can't even imagine women being told they can't run a marathon today but it was not that long ago.
Danielle: Exactly. Yes. I say delightful surprises. Some are also sort of terrible surprises, but galvanizing. Yes. And just, women weren't allowed to have their own line of credit until the '70s and so looking at how some of the social changes that were happening were impacting fitness and women's career opportunities there and self-determination was very interesting to me.
Doree: Well, Danielle, it has been a pleasure, a learning experience, just a delight to talk to you today. Can you let our listeners know where they can find you if they want to follow along?
Danielle: Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for having me on. You can find me on Instagram, @DanielFriedmanWrites. And I share a lot of vintage fitness images and ephemera and more serious things there. But that's where I live the most. I'm also on Twitter, @DFriedmanWrites. And you can find me on my website, danielle-friedman.com.
Doree: Well, thank you again. This was really fun.
Kate: Thank you.
Danielle: Thank you guys so much. For me too.
Doree: Kate, did our conversation with Danielle make you want to do any old school workouts, like the Jane Fonda workout?
Kate: I would be curious about doing a jazzercise.
Doree: Yeah. Same.
Kate: Sort of fun aerobics dance class that I feel like was the '80s. Peak '80s but that actually is really pleasurable and enjoyable. I mean, one thing that I'm really sad about is that I never got to attend class with Richard Simmons because Richard Simmons used to teach a class every Saturday in Los Angeles up until five or six years ago. And I do feel like there was a lot of just fun, simple choreographed dancing that I miss. I would love to do that again.
Doree: So Kate, I want to just report that there's jazzercise studios in the greater Los Angeles area.
Kate: Seriously?
Doree: Yes. We could go to one together.
Kate: I would 100% go jazzercise. Because I don't even think I know what jazzercise is.
Doree: I don't think I do either.
Kate: I think it's a word I just use as a joke basically.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: But it's dance. It's a dance workout. And fun.
Doree: Yeah. Also it looks like they also offer some live streams so that's also intriguing to me. Anyway, we'll talk.
Kate: Well look, maybe this is the year we get into jazzercise.
Doree: Maybe it is.
Kate: We are in our 40s.
Doree: I mean, look. Look.
Kate: You were doing Broadway dance.
Doree: I always wanted to open an '80s themed gym this would just offer jazzercise, Jane Fonda's workouts, step aerobics. People would wear leotards.
Kate: There'd be thigh masters just everywhere.
Doree: Thigh masters everywhere. Yes, exactly. Wouldn't that be fun?
Kate: I mean there's so many fun ... There's Pony Sweat, which is an LA based, really super inclusive nonjudgmental, non-competitive dance class that is online now. There's Dance Church. There's so many great ... You know what, actually a teacher that I loved in New York, this woman, Patricia Moreno, just passed away. And I used to take her class in New York called Intensati. Have you ever taken that?
Doree: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kate: You have?
Doree: I took it at Equinox. She used to teach it at Equinox way back in the day.
Kate: That's where I took it.
Doree: Oh.
Kate: Yeah. And it was a dance kickboxing class where you also shouted positive affirmations. It was super intense.
Doree: She was ahead of her time.
Kate: Yes. She was great. She was a fascinating, fascinating person.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: And I'm very sad that she passed away. Well-
Doree: Anyway.
Kate: Let's intention. Besides jazzercise, what are our intentions? Your intention last week.
Doree: My intention is actually ... Yeah. So I guess I should update everyone about my foot situation.
Kate: Yeah. What's going on with Doree's boot?
Doree: Well, I did see my doctor a few days ago and he gave me his blessing to wean myself off my boot. He also cleared me to do Peloton. But he was like, "Listen to your body." Basically don't go too hard. But I have gotten back on the Peloton, which has felt really good. So my intention last week was to ease my way back into exercising and I would say that I have done that.
Kate: Congratulations.
Doree: Thank you so much. And then this week, I'm still taking piano lessons and there were a few weeks there where I feel like I wasn't ... I still was practicing, but I feel like I wasn't really practicing. And I'm now challenging myself to memorize some of the things that I've been working on and that's really fun. And so I'm going to work on that this week.
Kate: Get back to those jams.
Doree: Yeah, exactly.
Kate: Good Doree. I hope you find some joy.
Doree: Thank you. Well, speaking of joy, Kate, how is puppy joy going?
Kate: Oh my god. I mean, I'm tired, but I'm really ... There is a real ... Pushes me to be in the present when I'm with Penny, the puppy. I'm not looking at my phone. I'm just playing with the dog. And I get up with her every morning at 5:30 right now, which is really early, but I actually really enjoy it. I sit outside with her and I kind of watch the sun come up and listen to the birds. It's been really enjoyable. She's a very pleasant dog. And aside from the fact that she wants to chew everything and sometimes still takes giant pisses in our house, I'm really loving her.
Doree: Aw.
Kate: Yeah. She's a great addition to the family. It's been really fun also people are so sweet. They've been like, "How is Lucy handling it?" Lucy's never played with other dogs, but they play so much outside so that's been really fun to watch. And Lucy's definitely the boss right now, which is also very good because Lucy's a real beta creature.
Doree: Oh, that's fun.
Kate: So I'm happy to report we're all settling in nicely.
Doree: Oh, good.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. It's all going okay. And this week ... Look, I know I've mentioned that a bunch, but I have a book coming out. It's now my turn to be the person with the book coming out on the podcast and you'll be hearing about it for the next month or so. It comes out on March 15th. And it's really interesting. I'm just trying to be intentional about my feelings. Not stress about it and enjoy the experience of getting to do this. This is something I've wanted to do for a long time. I'm proud of myself and I just want to go into this with confidence and calm. So that's what I'm focusing on. Just not stressing myself out, not getting worked up, not overreacting to a negative book review. Which I did spend a week spiraling about. But it's all part of the process. I've received some really wonderful feedback on it and I appreciate everyone who has pre-ordered it. Doree, someone bought a ticket to fly into my event at The Ripped Bodice. A Forever35 listener.
Doree: That's so cool.
Kate: Someone's flying. So, I mean, that's amazing. I can't wait.
Doree: I love that so much.
Kate: I can't wait to get see humans. It'll be interesting. It'll be interesting.
Doree: So fun.
Kate: Anyway. It's building confidence in all parts of one's life I feel like is maybe my bigger focus. And calm. Confidence and calm. Those are my words of 2022.
Doree: I like that. I like that.
Kate: Well, Forever35 is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reid is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast. Thank you all so much for listening.
Doree: Goodbye.