Kate has a fun and exciting book announcement and Doree dips her toe into meal planning. Then, Wanda Morris, corporate attorney and author, joins the pod to talk about the joy of getting facials and eating homemade pizza, how she wrote her book All Her Little Secrets over the course of 13 years, and why she wrote her book with a Black, middle-aged female protagonist.

Photo credit: Chatman Studios Atlanta

Mentioned in this Episode

• Pre-order a signed/personalized copy Kate’s new book, IN A NEW YORK MINUTE

• Click here for tickets to Kate’s book signing in LA!

• Turkey Meatloaf Recipe

• Birthday Candles

• All Her Little Secrets by Wanda M. Morris

• Thrillerfest

• Pitch Wars

• Find Me by Alafair Burke

• The Last To Die by Kelly Garrett

• Crime Writers of Color

• Zora Neale Hurston

• The Guest List by Lucy Foley

• The Intercontinental Spa at Buckhead

• Wanda’s Instagram: @wandamowrites

• Wanda’s Twitter: @WandaMo14

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Transcript

Kate: Hello, friends and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer

Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate: Welcome to the show. If you hear something we mention on an episode, you can always find it listed@foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com. We are on Twitter at forever35pod. Insta at forever35podcast. Of course, the Forever35 Facebook group can be found on Meta's Facebook site, where the password is serums.

Doree: And please do sign up for our newsletter@foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com slash newsletter. And if you wanna reach us, we have a voicemail number and you can text us at that number also. And you know how Kate likes getting your text?

Kate: I do. I love it.

Doree: That number is (781) 591-0390. Save it in your phone. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> and just, you know, call us anytime you can also email us at 35 podcast, gmail.com.

Kate: Doree. Can I share a little, um, book news?

Doree: I would like nothing more.

Kate: Okay. The people have been asking begging for this info. No one's been asking or begging, but listen,

Doree: I've been begging, I've been asking.

Kate: So I'm very excited to share first with forever 35 listeners to give you early a, if anybody like to join me for a live in conversation event at the ripped bodice bookstore in Culver city, Los Angeles, California, Saturday, March 12th, from eight to 9:00 PM. I will be in conversation with a T B guest and then I will be signing copies of my new book in a New York minute tickets have to be purchased in advance and they will include a copy of the book, which will be waiting for you at the event. I will sign it. I will personalize it. I will lipstick kiss it. I'll do whatever you want, but, uh, I am sharing this first with forever 35 listeners. So I will include the link in our show notes. I would absolutely be honored and thrilled to have you join me. It will be COVID safe. Um,

Doree: Do you, do you know what the link is?

Kate: Yes Doree. It's you want me to share it? Yes. Let's just say it out loud.

Doree: Yes, yes, yes.

Kate: Okay. Here's here's what it says. e.sparxo.com/kate-spencers-launch-

Doree: Okay. But I believe you can just get it from the, um, rip Bodis website, correct?

Kate: Yes. And I will also place it in le show notes.

Doree: Kate. Guess what guess what.

Kate: what?

Doree: I just bought a ticket.

Kate: Shut up. Doree. <laugh> Shut up. Yeah,

Doree: I did. I think I'm the first one. <laugh>

Kate: What if you're the only one? What if it's the viewing

Doree: Me? I don't think I am going to be,

Kate: Oh my gosh. That's really nice of you because I know that you were considering going out of town.

Doree: Yeah, but that was before I knew that this was your launch event. Hey,

Kate: I'm gonna cry. You're a really good friend. Oh, thanks. Thanks. I know I'm, I'm nervous and excited about all this. It's weird that it's becoming real. So I, I also can tell you all that I will be doing signed copies of the book. If you order through the ripped Bodi. One of my favorite bookstores here in LA or Romans one of my other favorite bookstore in LA. So two great bookstores. I will be signing, uh, copies there. If you order through them, you can get assign a copy and I will have those, uh, in the show notes as well.

Doree: That is so exciting.

Kate: Book stuff is real. Book stuff is happening. My book comes out March 15th. You know, I'll try not to clog your pod with too much book chat, but I appreciate the book support.

Doree: Uh, just got my confirmation.

Kate: Doree. Gee whiz way to just, I mean,

Doree: Why do you think I was asking for the link? I

Kate: Honestly didn't know. I was like, why is she ever like what? I couldn't figure out why it's like, we've never read a link out on this podcast in our lives.

Doree: Well, listen, I got to it from the ripped bodice website, just clicking on the old events tab at the top. If you click on that, you will get to the Kate Spencer book launch.

Kate: And I should say there will be other, um, some virtual things happening. There'll be other stuff that will be rolled out. Um, because what's amazing is, I mean, it's not amazing in COVID that you can do all this virtual stuff, but we're now used to virtual events. And so I can do book events around the globe via zoom and other digital platforms. So I will be, I will, you know, follow me on Insta at KateSpencer for all, all book announcements and events and all that

Doree: Kinda stuff. It's exciting.

Kate: Well,I also just wanna mention that I recently started feeling insecure about my top lip. Now, is this something that happens to everybody in their forties?

Doree: This took a turn <laugh> well,

Kate: I like, it's hard for me to spend. I don't wanna be like too blabby about my book, so I'm I get self conscious, okay.

Doree: Kate blab. Be blabby.

Kate: I am , okay. Okay. I have to channel, I mean, this is a whole other thing I have to work on is like confidence and like owning I my stuff, but I will tell you Doree, I think my top lip is shrinking. And is this a thing that happens in middle age slash my mom always used to complain about how she didn't feel like she had a top lip and now I'm like, have I inherited her things that she didn't like about herself? Am I think thinking too hard about lips?

Doree: Well, I do think our lips tend to thin as we age. I think that is a thing that happens. Um, but I mean, as someone who's never really had a top lip, I, I get it, but I guess it just like, I don't know, just it is what it is.

Kate: <laugh> look, all I'm saying is that if I show up and I've gotten a ridiculous amount of filler on my top lip, and I'm suddenly show up to record this podcast with like an Angelina Jolie lip,

Doree: Like a Kylie Jenner lip. And you're like, it's just my new lip gloss.

Kate: It's just my new Kylie kit, Doree. It's just, it's a liner. Leave me alone.

Doree: I'll be like, wow. That's I mean, that really does work. She wasn't kidding.

Kate: No Kylie's kits are amazing. I, I just am like, you know, all the things that you don't think you're gonna, you, you don't even, I don't even wanna be, have those moments where I'm like, oh, my body's changing. I, that makes me feel uncomfortable. I wanna just love every bit of myself. But then I'm like, where the did my lip go?

Doree: Yeah, I, I get it. I get it.

Kate: I guess what I'm saying is come to my book event in LA and I'll show you what I'm talking about. And we can talk about our lips. <laugh> I don't know. You know what I mean, though? And then I, then the, the thing about like, am I just inheriting my mom's shit? I don't know. But it made me realize like, I, my mom used to be like, I don't have a, I don't, I need lip liner, you know? Like why? So I'm trying not to do that in front of my children.

Doree: Yeah. I get it. It's really hard to, to let that stuff go.

Kate: Ugh. It is anyway. How are you doing over there, Doree?

Doree: You know, Kate, I am taking a page out of your proverbial book.

Kate: Okay.

Doree: I just want you to know you are an influencer.

Kate: You know. Finally I'm being acknowledged for the influence that I have on the, on the masses.

Doree: Yes. I mean, you know, sometimes, sometimes influencing takes five minutes. Sometimes it takes five years. Sometimes it's like a cumulative influence. Like you see someone posting about something for so long and then finally you're like, oh yeah, you know, that's a good idea. I should do that. So for me, this thing is meal planning.

Kate: Wow. Welcome. Welcome Doree.

Doree: Now I, I had attempted meal planning way back in the day. I mean, like before I had Henry, um, and it went reasonably well, but it just, I, I, it was never something I sustained. And then I had Henry and like, you know, that just like throws everything into chaos. And for a very long time, we had Henry had his dinner separately from us. You know, he would have like a kid's meal essentially early, and then we would eat dinner after he went to bed. Um, but recently he's been wanting to eat at the big table, AKA, you know, the regular dining room table, the big table. And a couple times, like a couple times when we'd like gotten takeout, it just ended up that we were all eating at the same time. And I was like, you know what? I think, I think we're ready to do some family dinners.

Doree: And also I feel like we've been getting way too much takeout. And also I like, I hate that feeling of like, oh, it's like six o'clock. Oh, oh the worst. I don't know what we're eating for dinner. There's nothing in the fridge I could have, like literally if I wanted to make something quote unquote, it would be like a bowl of cereal. And so I was like, you know what, let me get a little bit more intentional about this. Like my pal, Kate Spencer has been doing for years. I try. It's not always successful, but I try. So we've been eating together for the past two nights. This is the three members of your family. The three members of our family Bo also tends to come over and lie down because he's, um, hoping for some scraps. Of course he is look, of course.

Doree: Um, now has Henry actually eaten anything that I've cooked? Barely.

Kate: That's fine,

Doree: but that's fine. Um, I made a spreadsheet. Wow. I also have a separate doc going with recipes that I've gathered from friends. I posted in a little mom group that I'm in asking people for recommendations for, you know, meals that they've made their families that are easy. And I had a few other like criteria, like I don't eat red meter pork. So didn't want anything really with those didn't want anything that uses like a thousand dishes mm-hmm.

Kate: <affirmative> no, I'm, with you.

Doree: And so people had some great recommendations. So last night I made ironically, this was not one of the recommendations, but it was inspired by some of the recommendations. I made sheet pan Turkey, meat, loafs with potatoes and carrots. So everything just gets cooked on the same sheet pan.

Kate: Yum, this sounds good.

Doree: It was good. The Turkey meatloaf was really good and like really moist and tasty. Um, and tonight I'm making butternut squash baked pasta.

Kate: Ooh, this sounds good too.

Doree: Yeah, I'm excited.

Kate: Okay. I like this for you Doree. Now, how, what are like meals like in your house? Like does Matt share cooking duties? Are you the main cook?

Doree: So for this endeavor, I am the main cook and that's okay. I'm, I'm willing to take this on. I feel Matt is a, is actually like a better sort of instinctive cook. Mm

Kate: Oh. That's exactly what Anthony's like.

Doree: But given like his ADHD and lack of ability to plan, it's hard to get him to like plan. And I was just like, this is, it's gonna be too stressful for me to, to try to like split this responsibility. Mm I'm going to take this on mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I like this

Kate: For you, cuz you're a good, you're a good planner. I feel like I can see you getting into the like spread sheeting and the, I don't know, just the like preparation.

Doree: Well, you know, it was, it was, I feel like I have actually learned a lot from my past forays into meal planning, even if it was just like, oh, I wanna maybe cook this thing later this week. Like, I, I cannot, I don't wanna get food for a week from now. I wanna get groceries for the next three days.

Kate: Uh that's I think breaking it down in tiny chunks is the way to go.

Doree: Yeah. Because I really wanna avoid food waste. Yep. And just like having stuff sitting in the fridge. So also trying to be like more intentional about our grocery shopping. Um, so I did, I did a grocery shopping, uh, order a couple days ago with like all the stuff I would need for the next few days. Um, and yeah. And that's, that's been good. I also, one of the other things that I have learned is I need to give myself a lot of time, time.

Kate: Yeah. This is a very frustrating part about cooking because especially if you're, if your recipe is like 30 minute meal yeah. 99% of time. No, it's a lie. It's an hour. Yeah. It's a minimum. You have to give yourself an hour.

Doree: So we like to eat at like six. So I got started last night at like 4:30. Now was I actively cooking that whole time? No, but from like start to actually sitting down to, like, I kind of did need all that time. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, you know, I know that this is not possible for a lot of people. I'm just saying like, what is working for me right now? I'm gonna try and like structure my days so that I can start cooking at four 30

Kate: Doree. I'm proud of you. But I, I also wanna say, give yourself grace, if stuff is a bust or doesn't work out or you start late, you can always eat cereal for dinner.

Doree: Totally. And you know, as Henry said, last night, when I put his plate in front of him, he was like, want dinosaurs. He wanted dinosaur chicken

Kate: Nuggets. I love those chicken nuggets. I know exactly the ones you're talking about.

Doree: And I was like, those aren't on the menu tonight, but what dinosaurs <laugh> and Henry, but like, you know, worst case, he can always have some dinosaurs cuz those are in the freezer and those are always ready to go. You've

Kate: Always gotta have some frozen food. I will say another thing the, we really rely on in our home and doesn't need to be Costco brand, but Costco makes like really good, big size kind of family meals that you can freeze or refrigerate for a while. Like last night we ate chicken PO puzzle, uh, like a chicken and harmony situation. That was very good. Just from like a big giant tray from Costco. So. Yeah. I, I do love a co we did it. We've done a lot of like Costco, lasagnas, Costco, mashed potatoes, always a hit in my house. So those are always nice. Just to have on hand, if you need like a quickie. Meal, planning's hard. It's hard. I've burnt out on it. I burnt out on cooking and you know, Anthony just kind of wrapped up a busy time with his work. And so I was like, Y I passed on all meal planning to him for a while. Cuz I was like, I just, I, I can't, I can't do this anymore. I'm so burnt out on figuring out what to eat, listening to the complaints from the peanut gallery in my house anyway. Yeah. Well, congrats Doree. Welcome to the other side of things.

Doree: You thank you so much. I'll keep, I'll keep everyone posted. I mean, who knows this could burn out in a week, but we'll

Kate: See how it goes. I find like it has a lot of like stops and starts, you know? It's like, oh this part was working. This part was a massive failure. I'm discouraged. I hate this. You know, it's just, you kind of, it takes a while to get into the rhythm. And I, I don't feel like any online presentation of meal planning ever discusses how difficult it is. All it does. Like every bit it of literature I read, whether it's on a blog or someone's Instagram or whatever, it's like, I'm gonna make your life so much easier. And it doesn't personally, it just makes it like slightly more planned. And it's never talked about how freaking like hard it is. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and UN fun. Like just cuz you have a plan, doesn't make it less tedious or no. Or, or a ton of work.

Doree: Totally.

Kate: Anyway, my child told me last night, she was like, we are getting takeout tomorrow night and it's either gonna be taco bell or McDonald's. I was like, okay, yeah. Great. You know what? I appreciate your directive and sounds good to me. <laugh>

Doree: Uh, I mean I did build in takeout.

Kate: I think you can, if it's, if you can budget it and it's like, it works for your family. Yeah.

Doree: Not going, you're not going cold turkey on the takeout.

Kate: It's okay. Nobody's gotta go cold Turkey. You've just gotta eat cold Turkey am I right.

Doree: Oh, Hey we're also, I should say we're also only I also, for now I'm only doing dinners like planning, dinners, not planning lunches. I'm not planning breakfasts. Like I'm just doing dinners

Kate: Again. I approve of all of this.

Doree: Okay. Thank you so much.

Kate: Well, listen, we've got a really fun interview to get to after our break, we do, we had a blast. We talked to Wanda and Morris. Wanda is a corporate attorney. Let me just lay it out here because you are gonna be very impressed. Okay. She has worked in the legal departments for several fortune 100 companies. She's an accomplished presenter and leader. She's previously served as president of the Georgia chapter of the association of corporate council. And she's the founder of its women's initiative, which is an empowerment program for female in-house lawyers. But she's also a novelist and not just any kinda novelist, she has a thriller under her belt. <laugh> so wa is also an alum of the Yale writer's workshop. Um, she is a member of groups like sisters in crime, mystery writers of America and crime writers of color and her debut novel All Her Little Secrets was released late last year. It took her 13 years to write. We're gonna get all into it. She is a mother of three and married and she lives in Atlanta, Georgia. And we just had like the most fun talking to her. It was a blast plus really interesting to just hear from someone who, you know, has had such an interesting career, two careers essentially kind of happening at the same time and, and dealing with things like rejection and failure and all those hard things, um, that we all experience and how you kind of have to motivate to get back up again.

Doree: Mm Hmm. Oh she was so delightful.

Kate: Also. She gave us a hot tip on a spa in Atlanta, so, oh yeah. So at ATL forever 35 ERs

Doree: ATL hive assemble, cuz you're gonna

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I love Atlanta. Let's go on a trip Doree. Okay. Honestly. Great. I would that but Atlanta trip would be very fun.

Doree: Uh, totally.

Kate: I mean there are, we have lots of places to go on these imaginary trips that we take, but <laugh> someday when it's real, it'll happen. All right enough yammering uh, we're gonna take a break. And when we come back, we'll be talking to Wanda B.

Doree: BRB.

Kate: Wanda, thank you so much for joining us today on forever 35, we are very excited to talk to you about your career, your book, your journey as a writer. But before we get into all that, we love to start each interview asking our guests for a self-care practice that they have in their own life. Um, and so we would like to open with that with you. Is there something that you do that you consider self-care that has become, uh, a ritual that you rely on?

Wanda M. Morris: Ooh, that's a good question. So I had one previously and then we had a pandemic and so the world turned upside down. So pre pandemic, I would always treat myself to, um, a facial and or massage like every two months or so. Um, and I was really getting into my groove because like most women, I, you know, I put everybody else first. And so I was like, oh, this is a Folley to go pay and have somebody rub my shoulder and wash my face. I mean, things I could do at home myself. Um, but once I got past that and said, Nope, you know, you're a grown woman who works hard and you give everything to everybody else, do this for yourself. So I started doing that and then the world turned upside down <affirmative> and so that went away and I found during the pandemic because I have two older kids who live in New York city.

Wanda M. Morris: Um, my son is, uh, in law school and my daughter is working. And so they came back home during the pandemic and I have a 12 year old. And so all five of us, you know, with my husband were here in the house and that was crazy. So <laugh>, I was like, I gotta cuz I couldn't go get my massage anymore. So I started coming in here. This is my little study where I write, um, I would come in here at some point during the day and make sure the lights were low or off and it was quiet and I lit a candle and I just sat here.

Doree: What candle did you light?

Wanda M. Morris: Ooh, I should have, um, my daughter gave me this. I don't know if you guys have heard of these, um, their birthday candles. And so my birthday is, um, in September, so she gave me this and it smells heavenly. I wish you guys could smell it. Um, and so now, you know, my kind of self care is to do something, you know, for myself where I'm separate and apart and I'm quiet and I can just think or not think. Um, but it's just kind of some me time. Um, so yeah, so I do that at least once or twice a week now,

Kate: What was it like having your adult children home and having everybody in the house again, because it's such a, I think a lot of families with older kids experienced that and it's it it's, it's almost, it's gotta be kind of crazy because you probably never imagined to have everybody home living together like that again, not to mention in the, you know, confines of this pandemic. Um, how did that go for your family?

Wanda M. Morris: You know what surprisingly well, um, thankfully we all like each other, um, you know,

Doree: that helps.

Wanda M. Morris: <laugh> that helps, you know, we love each other, but we also like each other and you know, we don't have a huge house, but it was big enough that everybody could kind of retreat to a corner when they needed to like, you know, I came to buy space, you know, my, my son had the third floor, my daughter had a room. Um, my 12 year old was just all over the place. Um, as 12 year olds are. But, um, so everybody kind of had a corner if you needed some quiet space, but we, um, like a lot of folks, we baked a lot of bread, um, made homemade pizza, which good news we haven't bought pizza since the pandemic, because we started making our own pizza.

Doree: Do you have your own like dedicated pizza oven or is this an, just a regular oven situation?

Wanda M. Morris: Gosh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I haven't sold that many books yet Doree.

Doree: Mean, look, it's a fair question. You're very obsessed right now. I feel like with these pizza ovens, I, we don't have one, but I I'm intrigued by them.

Kate: Wait, I'm sorry. People have pizza ovens in their home?

Doree: Yes. Home. They make these like they're kind of compact. Um, relatively, they're not, it's not like a huge, you know, brick oven thing that you would see in a pizza restaurant, but yes, they make these small pizza ovens that I believe during the pandemic became quite popular. So I was merely wondering if that was

Wanda M. Morris: No, no, I, I just joke with you, but no, we just used a regular oven, but you know, like Kate, I, I had not heard of these, you know, pizza ovens that you could just sit on your counter or some thing. Um, I was always thinking of the big brick ones that you know, right. Yeah. You go out to the Hamptons and they have 'em in the, the back of their houses. Yeah.

Kate: Yes. And I do wanna say, you know, your book did just come out in the fall, so let's give it a few months here. You might, you might be in the pizza of, in territory pretty soon

Wanda M. Morris: From your lips to God's ear.

Kate: That's right in the year. We're all, we're all gonna be coming to the pandemic, be over and we'll show up at your house.

Doree: Let's manifest. Let's all manifest. Let's manifest that. That's for Wanda. That's right.

Wanda M. Morris: Pizza on me. When it does.

Kate: Thank you. You thank you.

Doree: Oh gosh. Um, Wanda. Well, I was just, I just wanted to ask, I know that, well, this is your debut novel and it took you 13 years to write is that?

Wanda M. Morris: It took me 13 years from my sitting down to start writing it to publications. Some of those years I was not working a lot of people. If you've heard my story, I started writing the book in 2008. Um, and I wrote probably like 75% of the book cuz I didn't have an ending. And then, um, I put the book away because I convinced myself that, you know, it wasn't good. It wasn't good truthfully it wasn't. But I convinced myself it wasn't a very good writer. Nobody would wanna read about, you know, a middle aged black woman who worked with awful people know this was all foolish.

Doree: They're really awful. Yeah.

Wanda M. Morris: Yeah. They really are awful. Yeah. I kinda leaned into that. Didn't I <laugh> so yeah, so I put the book away and I didn't touch it again until like 2015. So I left it sitting for like okay. Seven years.

Doree: Um, and you didn't work on anything else during this period?

Wanda M. Morris: I didn't. I, but I I've always journaled ever since I was a young girl. Okay. So that is the one constant that I've always had in terms of writing. Um, so yeah, so in 2015 I had just gotten through some health challenges and um, kind, and to your point earlier at the top of this conversation, after I got through it, I decided, what am I going to do that brings me joy?

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Wanda M. Morris: What do I do? That gives me pleasure. And writing has always been that. So I dug out that manuscript and um, and it was bad. It, it was really bad. Trust me, ladies.

Kate: No, we are, we are writers. We get, we have bad. 

Doree: We understand the pain of a first Draft.

Kate: So I've got one sitting right next to me. Yeah, yeah,

Wanda M. Morris: Yeah. It's just, you know, it stunk up the whole place. Um, but I, you know what I said, that's okay because what's bad. I can make better. Um, and um, so that's when I started, you know, taking online courses and um, doing workshops and um, when I, I travel a lot for my job. And so if I was in a city and they had a writing conference or workshop going on, I was there.

Doree: Wow.

Wanda M. Morris: Um, because I knew once I read that manuscript, I was like, the characters are good, but I didn't know squat about story structure and pacing and characterization and all those things that go into making an engaging read. So, um, so I said about doing that and then, you know, once I wrote the end, you know, like most newbie writers, I was like, yeah, now I can get an, this will be a piece of done done.

Wanda M. Morris: And man, I, um, that's what I started, uh, my journey of rejection. I, I just had years and tons of rejection. Um, but that's okay because you know, through all that rejection, I still grew as a writer because when agents gave me useful feedback, I, you know, I took it and I said, how can I use this? Um, when they didn't, I put it aside, I nursed my wounds for a few hours and then I kept trudging along. Because by this time when I was into the book, I was really loving the characters. And I, you know, I thought there's gotta be somebody else out there that wants to read about this incredible black woman who is so darn complicated. Hey, who doesn't wanna read about Elise Littlejohn, but sadly, a lot of people didn't <laugh>

Doree: So how did you, how did you actually find your agent and what was their response to the book? Did they just like, get it immediately?

Wanda M. Morris: So, um, I, like I said, I was going to conferences and whenever I could and I attended, this was in 2019, I attended Thriller Fest, which is a mystery and thriller writer's conference health in New York city every year. And, um, as part of the conference, they have a Pitch Fest. So you can sit down across the table from an agent, tell 'em what you book looks about. And if they like it, they say, send me, you know, a few pages or a full manuscript. So I was ready to give up on this manuscript again, I nearly did because I'd gotten so much rejection and right before I attended this conference, I had been in, um, pitch wars. Have, you know, ladies ever heard of pitch wars?

Kate: Oh yeah.

Doree: Do you wanna explain it for the benefit of listeners who might not? Yes. Sure.

Wanda M. Morris: So pitch wars is an online, um, mentoring program. Um, you submit, um, a portion of your manuscript, maybe a portion of the entire thing. I can't remember, but you submit, uh, manuscript pages and, um, authors who are published, um, will get a chance to look through those. And then if they select you for three months, they mentor you. Um, we, which is a wonderful program. And I, uh, got selected by a wonderful author named Wendy Hert. And she's out there on the west coast with you guys. And, um, for three months we kind of went through my manuscript and you know, said, you know, here's, what's good. Here's what you need to, to improve on at the end of the three months, there's an agent showcase. So agents come in and they look at the first page, which is placed online. They look at the first page.

Wanda M. Morris: If they like it, they say, send me the manuscript. So I had gotten into pitch wars in fall of 2018. I had gone through this months of mentoring with Wendy Herd and got into the agent showcase and had like a Wazu of response. All these agents were like, send me the manuscript. I love this premise. And I was like, yes, I'm getting an agent. Wow. And so I, you know, dashed off the manuscript and every single one of those agents rejected me. Wow. And I was bummed big time. Um, so I was kinda like, aye, yay. So by the time the, uh, agent showcase was over, I'd already signed up for pitch wars <affirmative> and I said, you know, this is gonna be my last shot. I'll pitch this thing. And if I get a response, then I'll start something else. And, um, so I sat down at the Thriller Fest, um, the Pitch Fest, uh, portion of the conference.

Wanda M. Morris: And, um, I sat across the table from this lovely woman named Lori Galvin she's with Avitas creative management. And she says, so tell me what your book is about. And I was so freaking nervous. I was like, uh, so I decided to pretend like I was telling this story about a woman that I knew who worked with all these awful people. So I'm telling her this story, like, you know, we're sitting at lunch gossiping about somebody and when I was done, she sat back and she said, wow, that sounds really interesting. Send it to me. And I was like, okay. And I did, and 24 hours later, she sent me back an email and she said, I am a loving the elephant fighter. And I cried, I, I cried. I was just like, oh my gosh, it's the email that, you know, every writer who wants an agent dreams of getting and after so much rejection, it was, um, it, it, it really was, uh, a really good feeling. So, yeah. So that's how I met Lori.

Doree: It, it just strikes me as you're talking that you have a lot of, kind of fortitude to take that much rejection and just keep going. Um, is that something that you feel like has always been kind of innate within you or was that learned?

Wanda M. Morris: Um, I think, you know, it, it sounds all. Woo woo, woo. But, you know, I just keep going, cuz I feel like there's always somebody who's rooting for me and whether it's the creator or family or friends, I just keep going. Cause um, you know, the option to give up, that's not exactly great either, so. You know, and I think you, ladies are writers, you know what it's like, this business is made outta rejection. So, you know, you, you grow a thick skin and um, you know, after having gone through all that, I, I still kept believing in these characters. I still kept, you know, thinking, gosh, you know, like she works with really awful people. I can't be the only one who sees this. So I, you know, I was rooting for my characters I guess, but yeah, I, I don't think I'm all that different from anybody else out there who's writing and trying to get published. This business is made of, you know, rejection and closed doors and yeah know tough knocks. And so you just keep getting up and fighting another day.

Kate: I am so glad. It's so nice to hear you say that. Not just because I need that reminder right now in my own life, but I bet someone out there definitely more than one person needed to hear that because so often creative pursuits or, or any life pursuits switching, you know, making a career switch when you're in, when you're older or, you know, like going back to school or going to school for the first, I mean, all these things require such an act of bravery and courage that can be so hard to muster. And I just think it's really, really valuable to hear, hear those words. So I I'm so grateful for you sharing.

Wanda M. Morris: Yeah. I, I try and tell people because you know, the, the book, all our little secrets is, you know, I, I, I've been blessed. It's, it's gotten some buzz and I hope people don't look at that and think, oh, she's like, you know, this big overnight success, you know, the, the road to publication was paved with a lot of tears and rejection and self doubt and second guesses, all that stuff that goes into, like you say, pursuing a creative art.

Kate: Well, and we should also mention that you are a corporate attorney who, you know, you have worked for in fortune 100 companies, you have served as the president of the Georgia chapter of the association of corporate counsel. I mean like, you are like, you're coming at this from a place of a lot of prestige and accomplishment. And so to, to hear those words come from you, or it's like extra reassuring, right. Because it's like, oh gosh, like I'm gonna read her bio or resume. And just think like, she's got it figured out. She's so success. She's so confident. No rejection here.

Wanda M. Morris: Lemme tell you something, ladies. I come out of the legal profession, which no doubt is tough. But when I stepped into the creative arts, I was like, whoa, this is a whole different animal. I mean, you know, yeah. There's some tough breaks in the legal industry, but man, when you are trying to be a published writer, there's a whole other level of disappointment and rejection that I had just, I had not seen the likes of before. <laugh> so

Doree: mm-hmm <affirmative> Well, and it's so per right, exactly. I, I imagine in the corporate world, in the legal profession, it, it doesn't quite feel as personal, but you know, when you're writing, it's, that's your name out there that's you? And so when you get rejected, it's, it's hard not to take that as, you know, an indication of your own self forth. I'm speaking for myself, obviously <laugh>

Wanda M. Morris: <laugh> Yeah. Cause nobody else feels like that Doree. Right, right.

Doree: <laugh> well, you know, I actually wanted to ask you about your experience in the corporate world, because I, I think it's fair to say that your book takes a, uh, rather dark view of the corporate world. Um, especially navigating it as a middle aged black woman. And I was hoping you could talk about some of your personal experiences in that world, um, that may have inspired the book or, you know, what were you kind of drawing on, um, when you wrote this?

Wanda M. Morris: So that's a good question. Uh, you know, no doubt. I, you know, my profession working in corporate America certainly informed the book, the book is fiction. So I, you know, I really pushed it out there. Yes <laugh> but that being said, yeah, I've sat in meetings and been disrespected or, yeah, I've been the only one in some meetings. I've been the one who suggested an idea that was roundly dismissed. And five minutes later, a white male says the exact same thing and everybody props them up on their shoulders and what a great idea. Yeah. And you know, I'm sitting there thinking like, are we in the same room or what? Um, so yeah, I've had those things happen to me. I've been racially profiled in a store more times than I care to count. Um, so yeah, it's things that I tapped into, um, because I wanted to, you know, I, wasn't trying to write a legal thriller per se. I was trying to write about one black woman's experience living in this country. And it's tough. It's tough to be a woman in this country. It's tough to be a woman of color in this country. And so I wanted to lean into that and you know, this arena, this corporate America arena is what I know. Um, and so yeah, I, I tapped into some personal experiences in that regard,

Kate: But you never discovered the body of your gosh boss and lover lover. <laugh>

Wanda M. Morris: No, not lately. No I okay. <laugh>, I've not been running away for bodies lately. <laugh>

Kate: I, I love that you, that Elise, your main character is a woman in her forties, because I think so often, you know, as story and I are both women in their forties, um, rarely are, it's feeling more and more like we're given the chance to be the main character, you know, so much emphasis is, is put on youth. Um, and I, I would, was that an intent decision on your part? And, and I'm curious, you know, as a woman, do you feel like you have learned more about yourself and become more grounded yourself as you've gotten older? Mm,

Wanda M. Morris: Great question. So, um, to the first part of that question, yes. It was very intentional to have, um, Elise little John as a middle aged woman, because to your point, I read so many books where, you know, the protagonist is 30 something, white female, um, you know, pretty, um, um, and so I set out to make a lease, all those things that, you know, I typically, um, she is not those things I typically read in a book. So, you know, I wanted her middle age because she needed to be someone who had a little life experience. So in some regards she's kinda like, eh, you know, whatever, a little jaded, but, um, you know, still had, um, that sense of still want to be something like she's striving to be this, you know, successful corporate executive. Um, you know, she's got a little, a few extra pounds, a little punch, uh, she's not your typical protagonist.

Wanda M. Morris: And Lord knows she's got enough baggage that she could fill up, you know, a car trunk. So, you know, I wanted to make her, somebody that was different from what we typically see in protagonist in books. Um, you know, as for me, I've kind of gotten to this point in my life where, you know, when you're in your twenties, you're always kind of second guess and yourself, and you're still trying to please everybody, whether it's your parents or your boyfriend, or, you know, but I think by the time you get to your forties and your fifties, you're kinda like, you know what, I'm good. Uh, no, I certainly, um, wanted to, to address that because in some regards, you know, as Elise is going through her day and she gets these slights and these, you know, microaggressions, and she's kinda like, yeah, I'm weary, but you know what, we gonna let that go. I let that one slide this time, you know? And I think that that comes from a certain level of maturity that, yeah. You know, when you're 20, you probably would address it a different way.

Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

Kate: All right. We are back.

Doree: I'm really curious. What other mystery slash crime slash legal thriller authors you read?

Wanda M. Morris: I likeZora Neale Hurston, which is, you know, like old. Um, but I just love, um, her characterizations in books. Um, I like Lucy Foley. Uh, I just adored The Guest List. I love The Guest List. Oh my God. I love, love, love that

Doree: She, like, if you wanted to study pacing, you'll think her books would be like the case studies.

Wanda M. Morris: Gosh. And I just love her characters. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think she has a new one coming out too. Um, yes, she does A Paris Apartment. I think it is mm-hmm <affirmative> yes. I think that's it. Cause we have the same publisher.

Kate: What do you get as a reader of mysteries and thrillers? I I'm, I'm curious if they are kind of part of your own self-care practice. And I say this as the daughter of someone who was like an, a rabid mystery reader, thriller reader. I mean, that was all my mom read growing up. So I curious you, do you consider that part of your self-care?

Wanda M. Morris: Yeah.Yes and no. I cause sometimes I actually read other mysteries as like a learning tool. You know, how you read a good book.

Doree: Yes, yes, yes.

Wanda M. Morris: And you know, I'll read a good passage and I will say, wait a minute, how did they do that? Cause my heart was racing a little bit when I read that. And so sometimes I read, um, to learn and I think that's how you become a good writer is by being, uh, you know, a good reader. Um, because then you, you kinda learn what was it that, um, uh, guess, uh, Ira Glass I think, would say, um, you know, you recognize good taste when you see it. And so when you start to write your writing, doesn't have good taste. So you have to keep at it so that you learn and you do that by reading and writing continually.

Wanda M. Morris: And so when you read, you actually learn how to write. And so I always encourage new writers, make sure you're reading. Cause I've heard some people say, well, I don't do a lot of, you know, reading cuz I'm too busy writing and I'm like, you might not be writing anything good if you ain't reading, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, but yeah, I do pick up a book a time or two to read, but usually when I'm doing self care, I wanna focus on me. So, you know, like, am I getting my toes done? Am I getting a massage? Am I listening to great music? You know, reading? I kind of feel like, yeah, I wanna read a good book. And I do that cuz I like to read before I go to bed. But yeah, I'm really wanting somebody to like do something to me. Like am I getting my hair done? That's selfcare to me,

Kate: This I like this, you know what? Let's just take it back old school to like hair ,nails, massage, skin. <laugh> right. That does just, that does just feel good. Exactly.

Doree: I mean I did, I did make a mimic care appointment for tomorrow. Coincidentally, last night I was like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go get a manicure. <laugh> so I really feel you on this. <laugh>

Kate: Have you been, have you been able, I mean, I know we're still in a pandemic and everyone has different levels of, uh, comfort going out into the outside world. Have you been able to go do any of these things that provide so much for you?

Wanda M. Morris: It's much. I like my daughter was home, um, gosh, a few months ago and we usually try and do a Manny petty together. Um, I haven't, gosh, I haven't had a massage in over a year. Well over a year. Well, two years. Dang. When did this pandemic start?

Kate: No, I mean, I mean, 1975 I don't know anymore. <laugh> started, it's almost we're coming up. I mean, it, it technically started over two years ago. I think it really hit the state's, you know, March, February, March

Wanda M. Morris: Of 20, 20 20. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, it was because I remember we were in Washington DC and we were coming back on a flight and that's when we learned that everything was, was shutting down and I had gone and gotten, uh, a massage the week before. So yeah, so we are talking two years.

Kate: Oh your back. Yeah. We gotta get this pandemic over. So you take a massage so you

Wanda M. Morris: Can get a massage because forget that the rest of the world is falling apart. Wanda Morris needs a Massage.

Kate: You know, those things are important. It's so hard to like, you know, we joke, but it does feel nice to be able to return to those little things that we did of taking care of ourselves. You know, that does. I wanna ask before we wrap, do you have any recommendations of places in Atlanta? Because I know you, you, you are based there and I, I sometimes get to visit Atlantic when my husband works there and I'm, I'm like, I'm all for us moving there. So if you have any spots that you love there, I would love to share with our listeners. So

Wanda M. Morris: I go to surprisingly, you would not think it's a hotel spa, but the Intercontinental Buckhead, um, here in Atlanta and um, their spot is to die for, um, they have a rooftop pool. So of course when you make an appointment, you can go in at any point during the day and have access to the workout facility and the pool and all that. So it is just luxurious to me and it's just like, you know, I'm always kinda like, eh, it's a hotel spa, but this one is really, really nice. Um, so yeah, I've done that. Um, I have traveled for my spa visits, so I've gone out to Sedona and um, yeah, I have a really good friend and uh, again, this was all pre pandemic ladies. So swoon because I haven't done this stuff in, in a couple years, but that is kind of like myself care where I can treat myself and I am full immersed in it, you know, cuz it's, it's not the same when you go around the corner and you kind of get a quick manicure cuz you going out that night, you know, I want like an experience that I can just kinda lean into.

Wanda M. Morris: Um, dang this pandemic. I know what I'm on as soon as

Doree: Get better. Yeah. I was gonna say, when this pandemic is over, we will meet you on at the rooftop pool at the Intercontinental in Buckhead.

Wanda M. Morris: Oh gosh, let's do that.

Kate: Or an mountain in Sedona. I will be. And I hope you get two weeks and somewhere. I mean, this is just, you know, you need a break, you need that. The, the darkened study where no one can reach you, but your candle, right. That's it. You need that space, but for a longer time.

Doree: Yes.

Wanda M. Morris: Exactly.

Doree: Um, this has been so, so wonderful to get to talk to you, Wanda. Thank you so much for taking the time. Um, we will love to share with their listeners where else they can find you online. Sure.

Wanda M. Morris: So you can find me on my website. Wanda Mo excuse me. Wanda Morris writes.com. Uh, yeah. Wanda Morris writes.com. I'm all over the police. Wanda Morris writes.com. That's my website. You can go in there. You learn about by book. There's a playlist on there. Uh, reading guide questions. If you have a book club, uh, lots and lots of fun stuff. I'm also on Twitter as Wandamo14. And I'm also on, um, Instagram as Wandamowrites and on Facebook as Wanda Morris writer. So, you know, I've, don't give me another platform to get on. Okay. Cause I have

Kate: To <laugh> and you have to memorize like a new, a different name. We have that for our podcast. They're all like slightly different for every platform.

Wanda M. Morris: Exactly. Somebody asked me recently, oh, have you been on clubhouse? And I was like, I cannot afford another platform or distraction, no disparagement of clubhouse, but it's just like sometimes I get in a rabbit hole, um, on social media. So yeah, but you can find me if you Google Wanda Morris you'll you'll find me eventually.

Kate: Well, thank you again. This was really, really lovely. Thank

Wanda M. Morris: You. I had a lot of fun too. Thank you for inviting me.

Doree: Good.

Kate: Uh, well I gotta say, I love just, I love getting back to the basics of just like, you know, where it's at a massage, you know?

Doree: Totally, totally just let's yes.

Kate: Tell it like it is a massage. Is the ultimate self-care yes, yes. What? I wouldn't give what I wouldn't same just to be rubbed down. Oh, <laugh> sorry. TMI. Hello?

Doree: Oh, Kate how is the intention zone for you?

Kate: Terrible.I am like dropping the ball left and right on my intentions here. I, oh, I will say. Okay. So look, I had really wanted to make, keep up with my fresh flowers around my house that just make everything better. Yeah. But I haven't been to a grocery store this week and Anthony did the grocery shopping and he was at trader and I like texted him and I was like, please also get me some flowers. And then he was like in my, any gone, so, oh, I know. Thanks a lot way to go Anthony <laugh> so I don't have my fresh flowers, but I probably will do a quick either like TJs or Costco run. I love a grocery store flower as we've established. Yes, yes, yes. Who doesn't. Um, and you can get, you know, they're very affordable trader Joe's at Costco. You can get a huge bouquet of roses, which I split up amongst like two to three little Vases. So I'll circle around to it. And you know, this week, Doree, I've gotta do some self-esteem and positive thinking work over here.

Doree: Mm. Okay.

Kate: As you might have noticed at the beginning of this episode, I'm not completely comfortable promoting myself believing in myself. And I want to just be in that space a little bit more and push myself to really, I don't know, do some positive reframing. It's gonna be a lot of work. This is a tough one.

Doree: This is tough.

Kate: I did talk about it in therapy yesterday, so I am doing it. Okay. All right. Um, but yeah, so that's, that's where my intention is this week. How about you? How did it go last week?

Doree: Well, I believe I have mentioned this, I mentioned this on a previous episode, but I did call the doctor

Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Doree: I did see him and he did put me in a boot <laugh>

Kate: Doree's been booted.

Doree: Um, and he gave me some anti-inflammatory good medication. And I have to say, my foot is feeling so much better. It's definitely not like a hundred percent, but it is feeling so much better already.

Kate: Wow. Seriously. That's amazing. Yeah. Just from having it like encapsulated in the boot and

Doree: I think, and the meds.

Kate: Good. Okay. That's good news. That makes me happy. Okay. So

Doree: That is very encouraging. He took x-rays and was like, it's not broken. So that was just like, whew. Okay. Yeah.

Kate: Very good. I'm glad that I was wrong. I know. I, I predicted that it would have a fracture and um, I'm glad you don't.

Doree: Yeah. I mean, I guess a, a hairline fracture would always have been possible, but he was like, it would look a lot worse if it were broken. Mm. Like it wasn't swollen at all. So that was, that was the thing where I was like, I don't think it's broken, but you know, of course you never know. Um, and then this week, my intention is just to continue meal planning. I will share the link to the Turkey meatloaf. Yeah.

Kate: Doree. Thank you. I'm I'm gonna try that Turkey meatloaf. So thank you for sharing the link with all of us. I appreciate it.

Doree: You're welcome. You're welcome.

Kate: Well, you know, I really, I do wanna say I feel deep gratitude that I get to do this podcast with you and see the people we work with. And the listeners I really do really does make my life better. I don't know where this is coming from, but I just felt I needed.

Doree: I love that same. I feel similarly.

Kate: Well look, uh, our show forever 35 is posted and produced by you. Doree Shafrir and me Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. And, uh, we thank you for listening.

Doree: Alright. Bye.

Kate: Fairwell.