Doree celebrates her family testing covid-negative and Kate shouts out a lipstick that immediately makes her feel put together. Then, Abigail Hing Wen (Loveboat, Taipei and Loveboat Reunion) wakes up early for the pod to tell them about the film adaptation of her first book, how she spends part of every evening in a hot tub, and what gen-Z has taught her about skincare.

Mentioned in this Episode

• Nars Heat Wave Lipstick

• Loveboat, Taipei by Abigail Hing Wen

• Loveboat Reunion by Abigail Hing Wen

• Shiseido 

• Cetaphil cleanser

• Sekkisui oil and cleansing gel

• Fenty Skin Fat Water

• Fenty Brightening Emulsion 

• Biore UV Aqua Rich Sunscreen

• L'oreal Paris Gentle Lip and Eye Makeup Remover

• Ettusais gel luminous eye cream

• Chanel eye cream

• All My Rage by Sabaa Tahir

• Luck of the Titanic by Stacey Lee

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Transcript

Kate Spencer: Hello, babies. Welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,

Doree Shafrir: And I'm Doree Shafrir. You know, what's gonna be a good episode when Kate opens it with, Hey babies.

Kate Spencer: Well, you know, I think we got it either a text message or someone DM me and was like, can call us babies more often. It feels really good. And I was like, oh, and this,

Doree Shafrir: oh my gosh,

Kate Spencer: popped back into my brain as we were recording. And also, you know, Lucy just rolled into the office and helped herself to the chair next to me. So she's sitting here.

Doree Shafrir: Oh, Lucy.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. So it's, we've got, we've calling everybody babies and we've got a dog in the room, so it feels good,

Doree Shafrir: Beau, is in my office.

Kate Spencer: Is he really?

Doree Shafrir: Yeah. He just took up residents on my couch, like.

Kate Spencer: recently.

Doree Shafrir: an hour and a half ago.

Kate Spencer: They must know. Do you think these dogs are like, uh, we heard, heard that, um, the siren call of the welcome to forever 35.

Doree Shafrir: What's funny is I was on the Peloton bike and he, like, I was get, I was like getting ready to get on the bike. And he like came over and was like, trying to get around. I have this like pouf that I sometimes like put my legs up on when I sit on the couch and he was like trying to maneuver around the. And I was like, okay, Bo, here you go. And then <laugh>, he got up on the couch. He was like, all comfy cozy. And then Matt came home like half an hour into the ride. Bo got up, like went to see what was going on. And then just like trotted back.

Kate Spencer: Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Doree Shafrir: got back up on the couch. She's like, I'm I here?

Kate Spencer: I'm Here to work. I wanna listen to you record podcasts exactly. All day long. Well, uh, we kind of forgot to tell everybody everything else, but you know, oh, we did. Yes. Yeah, we are. We are not experts. We're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums is the, you know, the gist of this show.

Doree Shafrir: It's true. And you can visit our website, which is forever 35podcast.com. We put links to everything we mention on the show, up on the website. We're also trying a new experiment. Let us know what you think with transcripts of the podcast.

Kate Spencer: Hell Yeah.

Doree Shafrir: Thumbs up, thumbs down. I mean, do people Care?

Kate Spencer: I mean, it definitely makes it more accessible.

Doree Shafrir: Totally. Um, so I'm just curious, like what do people think, let us know in the comments, let us know. Um, you can <laugh>, you can follow us on Twitter @February 35pod; on Instagram @forever35podcast and join the forever 35 Facebook group. The password over there is serums.

Kate Spencer: And you can also sign up for our newsletter at forever35podcast.com/newsletter that comes out about twice a month.

Doree Shafrir: It's coming out tomorrow.

Kate Spencer: Oh, snap. Okay. We'll get on that then everybody.

Doree Shafrir: Yep. Yep. Yep.

Kate Spencer: If you would like to reach us, uh, you can send us a voicemail or a text message at 781-591-0390. And our email is forever35podcast@gmail.com.

Doree Shafrir: Indeed. Kate.

Kate Spencer: Yes Doree.

Doree Shafrir: I have some news.

Kate Spencer: share It loud, Share it proud.

Doree Shafrir: We don't have COVID.

Kate Spencer: great News. Best news of The week.

Doree Shafrir: Best news of the week.

Kate Spencer: I'm so happy. Cause you had quite an exposure.

Doree Shafrir: Yeah, we did. We had an outdoor play date with two other toddlers, which, you know, in theory should be safe, but I sort of just like forgot. I don't know. I like <laugh> one of the other moms brought bagels and one of the moms brought croissants and like we were all just sitting there eating and like at one point Henry like picked up a piece of bagel that one of the other kids had been eating and just like ate it. And I was like, yeah, you can finish that. Like I just was sort of like Ladi da <laugh>.

Kate Spencer: You fell Into normalcy.

Doree Shafrir: Yeah. I was like, oh, that kid got COVID <laugh> so I think normally I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have been that stressed about an outdoor play date with an asymptomatic or I guess pre-symptomatic child's because like they, you know, they're two and a half, so they don't really play together. Like they were kind of, they weren't like on top of each other at all, but the food thing, I was like, oh God it. So that really sent me spiraling. And then, you know, we had to isolate Henry for five days, post exposure, get him a PCR on day five, watch him for symptoms. And it was just like, oh gosh, you know, so no childcare. It was just so in, in addition, no childcare, it's just like that added stress of like, does he or doesn't he? Yeah. Do I have COVID like, you know,

Kate Spencer: Especially because it's, um, with Omicron, it's like kind of coming in so late, like people are symptomatic, but still testing negative. And It's just bit of a journey,

Doree Shafrir: you know, I've heard that. That is true for vaccinated people.

Kate Spencer: Oh see. Okay. That's where I exist.

Doree Shafrir: That there's something about how O Macron like interacts with vaccines. That, and look, I am not a doctor. I I'm literally reading like Twitter threads about this, but anecdotally I've also heard many, many people who have gotten Omicron who have had symptoms for two to three days before it shows up on a positive test.

Kate Spencer: Same.

Doree Shafrir: Whereas this child who had it tested positive on a rapid when he still did not have symptoms.

Kate Spencer: Wow.

Doree Shafrir: So I just thought that was interesting. Anyway. I was like, okay, if we develop any symptoms, I'm just gonna assume that we have it. Even if we're testing negative, but we never got symptoms. And I was just like, wow, bullet dodged there. Like, oh man.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. Bullet dodged for now. I mean, that's been exactly pretty pessimistic, but you and I were just, yeah, I mean, we were just talking a about how, like how, how have we, I mean, your husband had it, my daughter had it, so it's been in our homes, but like how have we not all gotten COVID at this point is, you know, a fluke.

Doree Shafrir: Totally.

Kate Spencer: I read someone like shared a tweet that was like, I, I haven't gotten COVID it's 20, 22. And I feel like I'm playing Dodge ball. And like my line of defense is very thin. Yeah. Yep. Yep. When, when Eleanor and I were, um, Eleanor was sick and I thought she had COVID and we were in line to get a PCR for her. And we were behind this like group of teen girls who go to our local high school and it was fascinating.

Kate Spencer: Like their whole conversation was just like, who was exposed and who's out and who won't get vaccinated and they're vaccinated. And like, it was fascinating. And it like made me kind of sad because I was like, oh man, these teen girls like this, they should be talking about like teen girl stuff, you know, like living their best teen girl life. Yeah. But then I also was like very fond of them and how like up and aware they were. So, Aw. I know those teen girls didn't know that a mom, two people behind them was my listen eavesdropping. And <laugh> feeling all sorts of ways about their conversation.

Doree Shafrir: Well, and I mean, you know, you talk about like what kids do and don't kind of understand. It's like, you know, Henry is not even three and like knows what a, COVID test is, has taken. Many of them, he used to kind of be okay, taking them. And now he is just not about them. And the last PCR we had to do was just not about it. And like, that's also just really hard to have to like subject your child to, um, and explain to him like you're not going to school and your nanny's not coming because your friend ended up having COVID and we have to wait and see if you're getting sick. Like, it's just like, huh. You know? So that's also like, I don't know, just the way we live now, I guess.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. I was thinking like, my kids won't remember this and they, this is, did I share this sadness? I think I did <laugh> that we could talk about something less sad, but my daughter and two of her friends had like a play date where they were like making movies. They were like recording themselves, performing Encanto and like dressing up and doing this whole spiel. And my, the mom was sending me photos of them and they were just like being kids, you know, like just being kids. And I was like, they haven't really had time to do that with their friends for two years. And it just, again, made me so sad. And then as someone pointed out, like, but also I'm so grateful that they can even do that. Like, yes. Great. So, you know, it's just this bittersweet kind of feeling of like, this is, this is gonna fully impact their live in ways I'm, I'm not clear on maybe, maybe, you know, maybe it'll just be like a weird chunk of time that they just remember and like are fine, you know, who knows, but it's just totally, it's strange that it's even, it's even a thing.

Kate Spencer: Well, Doree on a completely non COVID related topic. Yes. I met with the nutritionist that I had previously worked with, um, in kind of establishing an intuitive eating practice.

Doree Shafrir: mm-hmm <affirmative> I'm listening.

Kate Spencer: I did, I, I, if you may recall, this is all documented on past episodes of this podcast, but I, um, <affirmative> worked through basically the entire intuitive eating workbook program and it was really helpful and it really kind of changed the course of how I, you know, my relationship to food and my body. It was great. But anyway, got my blood test results back a few weeks ago, got some stuff I needed to look at. So I met with her, she reviewed my blood work and we like went in depth on everything and it was really helpful. It was really helpful having her decipher my blood tests as opposed to, um, my primary care physician.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. It was interesting like what she was able to really kind of get into the weeds. And she, I have a, I have a, an iron, like the certain iron thing that's going on too. And that can be connected to hormones. Like she was just really, um, very helpful in kind of like one being like, you don't need to become a vegan and two, um, you know, just helping me figure out a really like, um, easy approach to making some small adjustment in, um, what I'm eating and, and also like additions to what I'm eating. Not just like eliminating the butter.

Doree Shafrir: Yeah.

Kate Spencer: Now that being said, the butter does need to, um, take, go on hiatus for a bit, so.

Doree Shafrir: Okay. All right.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. So I'm gonna do a little bit of like a dairy hiatus and.

Doree Shafrir: a full dairy hiatus,

Kate Spencer: man. I'm not like I don't, I don't plan on doing, being super restrictive cause that doesn't work well with my, um, brain.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. But, um, cutting back and finding alternatives and then, um, also just, you know, red meat trying to not eat as much. I'm not like I was eating a ton, but like, you know, just be thoughtful with it and focus more on, you know, the fishes and the beans and the white meats. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and also some supplements, some supplement stories.

Doree Shafrir: Oh, interesting. Okay.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. So I feel good about that. I feel good about it. Um, it's also just fun telling people how much butter I've been eating. <laugh> it's truly, uh, <laugh> truly a humbling experience every time to just formally announce that I eat butter as a snack.

Doree Shafrir: Yeah. I mean, or are already hearing from listeners about it. <laugh>.

Kate Spencer: yeah. Someone was like, I never knew other people ate plain butter besides me <laugh> you know, it's like, I've been here the whole time.

Doree Shafrir: Well, you you've talked about it a bit on this podcast, but maybe people didn't quite understand the extent.

Kate Spencer: I mean, you didn't know

Doree Shafrir: I did not. I did not. I did not.

Kate Spencer: And you know, the only people who really like probably know are my family members because they open the butter and see teeth marks in the butter because sometimes I will just take a I'll just bite it. <laugh>

Doree Shafrir: like it's a candy bar.

Kate Spencer: <laugh> yes, exactly. Like it's a hunk of chocolate. <laugh> butter is the perfect salted butter is the perfect salty sweet treat. I mean, it really is. It's so delicious. Um, I also Doree just wanted to give a shout out to a lipstick because.

Doree Shafrir: okay. All right.

Kate Spencer: I feel transformed <laugh> by this freaking lipstick. Now the thing with lipstick is it's not gonna be for everyone because truly, you know, everybody different colors, they like and colors that they think works with their skin tone indeed. But this lipstick has changed my freaking life. NARS sent me a bunch of lipsticks and um, this one I just like randomly had and threw on one day and now I'm wearing it every day.

Kate Spencer: That's it. Now I'm a lipstick woman.

Doree Shafrir: It's what you were wearing yesterday, right?

Kate Spencer: Yeah. You complimented me on it the day before two days ago. No, it was yesterday. I had it on, in a zoom.

Doree Shafrir: Oh, that's right yesterday. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Yes.

Kate Spencer: Yep. And it's just truly like the most, my most favorite color of an lipstick I've ever tried. I mean, I'm gonna try to keep exploring this world of orangey reds, but I don't know. It just makes me pop. It makes me pop. Like I can only, I can just wear that and I look put together in a way, like I no other makeup or anything. And I just, uh, I look, I'm gonna say it. I look good.

Doree Shafrir: You do. You look good. You look great.

Kate Spencer: I look good. So, uh, I just have to give a shout out to heat wave by NARS. Great. It's so freaking great. It's uh, a $26. It's a matte bright orange red. You can find it on their website or wherever you purchase makeup. And it is their, uh, lipstick formula and it stays on for a while. I find it really lasts for a while.

Doree Shafrir: Amazing.

Kate Spencer: All you need is one great lipstick to just that is pull it all together.

Doree Shafrir: That is really, really True.

Kate Spencer: Do you know what I mean? Like that's it. That's all you need. Yep. Do you have one right now that you love? I know you had, I know you had the story of the $48 Tom Ford lipstick. Oh my God.

Doree Shafrir: <laugh> I feel like it. No, I think it was like $52. <laugh>

Kate Spencer: Such a great Story.

Doree Shafrir: I mean, I just like the pen has just like taken all <laugh> like desire for me to wear any makeup. So I haven't really been playing around with lipsticks, but now that I know my colors, mm.

Kate Spencer: Maybe everything's changed.

Doree Shafrir: Go back and try to find a new, fun lipstick like you, because I feel like this, this really bringing you a lot of joy.

Kate Spencer: I, it, it, you know what, I've been making these videos for my book promotion. And so I wanna look like, kind of put together for the video. Like I wanna give people a good version of me. Right? Sure. But all I need is this lipstick. And I keep it by my computer and I haven't worn it like out on the town. And obviously I'm always in a mass anyway. So what would be the point? But I think when this variant dies down and I start, um, you know, partying again, going out on the party circuit, you know me <laugh> oh, I did always be partying. Always be party. The Kate Spencer motto always be partying. Oh no. I'm, I'm excited to kind of give it a whirl, like in the going out world someday, if that ever comes back around,

Doree Shafrir: I Mean, T B D

Kate Spencer: It would be fun just to go out to dinner period. And like, I know we can do that now, but going out to dinner without thinking about pandemic mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, without having to be like, oh, here we go. Let's take our masks off now. Totally use QR code and show vaccine cards. Well, Dory. someday. Someday we will get there someday,

Doree Shafrir: Right? Yes. I hope so.

Kate Spencer: Dory. Shall we introduce our guest on today's episode?

Doree Shafrir: I would Love to do that

Kate Spencer: Today. We're talking to Abigail Hing Wen she's amazing. Let's just first like, say this she's amazing. She talked to us from at six 30 in the morning. She's in Taiwan right now. Yeah. <laugh> so it was six 30 her time while we were talking to her and look, she didn't miss a beat. No, she, you were interviewing me at 6:30 in the morning. It would be rough around the edges. Abigail is the New York times best selling author of love boat, Taipei, which is currently being turned into a movie, which is why she was in Taiwan. She's a producer on the film. And, uh, she, she's also the author of its highly anticipated, sequel love boat reunion, which just came out yesterday, right?

Doree Shafrir: Yeah.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. Abigail was born in West Virginia to a family of immigrants. Her mother is from the Philippines and her father is from Indonesia. And her grandparents immigrated to those countries from China. Abigail grew up in Ohio and graduated from Harvard university and Columbia law school. And as a young adult, she attended the love boat program in Taipei that inspired her first novel. She also worked in DC for the Senate as a law clerk for a federal judge in and in Silicon valley in venture capital, in artificial intelligence, but that's not all. She also earned her master of fine arts and writing from Vermont college of fine arts. And in her spare time, she enjoys long walks with her husband and two boys and hanging out with her friends and over 100 family members in the bay area. That's I wish I had a hundred family members period, but I wish they also all lived near me.

Doree Shafrir: I know it sounds amazing. Slightly overwhelming, but like mostly amazing.

Kate Spencer: What a fun, like any party, like a guaranteed good time. It just sounds amazing. I miss my extended family, but there's definitely not a hundred of us.

Doree Shafrir: No same.

Kate Spencer: Anyway, we really enjoyed our conversation with Abigail and we got some fun makeup and skincare tips too. So we did. Yeah. So look out, those are coming for you. All right. Let's take a break. And when we come back, we'll be talking to Abigail. Well, our guest today is Abigail Hing Wen. Abigail. Welcome to forever 35. We are so excited to talk to you because you have, you have literally done almost too many things in your life. <laugh>

Abigail Hing Wen: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to speak with you.

Kate Spencer: So, uh, I, we, I wanna start by asking about a self-care practice and, and then we're going to get to hopefully talk about all sorts of things from AI to writing romance to your many interesting career paths. But, um, you know, we always start by asking guests for a self-care practice that they have in their own life that they might be willing to share with our listeners. And it can really be anything that brings you comfort and joy on a, on a regular daily basis.

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. So I loved that You allowed me to show up for the podcast. Um, anyway, I am. So I think you said something about, um, you know, I can come as I am, or I can come dressed to go out and I, you know, at 6:30 AM in Taiwan and I decided, you know, I'm not gonna wear makeup and I love being able to take a break like that. Cause I've been, um, here, I'm sure we'll talk more, but I've been on set in Taiwan for the past three months filming and I've been on every single day wearing makeup every single day. And I'm on a break with my family. We're doing a tour on the island and I haven't worn makeup and about four days and my skin is so happy. So I'm, I'm thrilled to be able to take those breaks when I can.

Kate Spencer: Are you, you are a regular makeup wearer, like an everyday makeup person.

Abigail Hing Wen: I normally am not when I'm just at home, like doing my daily thing. Um, I wear makeup to go out, but because I've been in Taiwan filming, <laugh>, I've been like lots of makeup every day.

Kate Spencer: And let's clarify, you are in Taiwan filming because you are a producer on the movie adaptation of your book.

Abigail Hing Wen: That's right. Of the book Tai Pei.

Kate Spencer: That's amazing. I mean, tell us everything circle back. Let's circle back. <laugh> yeah. You're very casual about it, but like, this is a big deal. It's a huge deal.

Abigail Hing Wen: It's been pretty surreal for sure. Yeah. Where even to begin. So

Kate Spencer: You, well, okay. Let's start by, by, I guess maybe kind of starting about, sorry, I'm all over the place. Let's start just kind of discussing your many career trajectories because you have such an interesting background and I actually think that's why it's so exciting that you are on the set of your book's movie, um, because you haven't been writing, uh, books your entire life, or you haven't been publishing books your entire life. Let's say you've been doing a million other interesting things. Um, you've worked in AI, you have a law degree, you also have an MFA in writing. So could you kind of, I know it's a lot to try to say in a few minutes on a podcast, but kind of give us the start of what your professional career has been and how you have ended up where you are on a movie set.

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah, so I, I started off, um, going, I was studying government in international relations at Harvard and I went on to law school in between. I did a stint in Washington, in DC on Capitol hill. So I worked for two years, um, on the house of representatives and on the Senate judiciary committee. And I thought that was my path that was law government politics. I had done thesis research in China on, um, uh, a variety of topics actually like human rights, intellectual property. Um, and yeah, I don't even remember the third prong in anymore, but I think it had to do with, with commerce. Um, but I think over time I started to realize, you know, the same themes that I was pursuing around, uh, social justice questions, um, about poverty and poverty alleviation and these other policy questions. I could answer them in any industry.

Abigail Hing Wen: You didn't have to be in government to do that. And it kinda came ahead from me, cause my husband wanted us to move to California. My husband's at Google and you know, he, Silicon valley is really his town. Um, he was, he's a techie. So in Washington DC, he was like the nerdy guy coming to parties, like geeking out over cool gadgets. And I was in law making the product. Um, and so in Silicon valley it was reversed. Um, and so, you know, I think I kind of came to terms with that like, oh, I don't have to be in law and government to fulfill these same, um, issues that I cared about. And so, you know, I, I started practicing law here in venture law and it was fun. I was working with startup companies. Um, and I thought I kind of had to give up that other side of myself, but still find ways to implement the same, the same kind of thesis in my life.

Abigail Hing Wen: Um, the same time I was writing novels and I found like really, I, I think of myself as just kind of living out that same thesis in every space that I've touched. So while I was in the corporation, I thought, you know, I, I did, I worked on things like, um, we looked at a, a woman's fund for venture capital cause we realized that women were being underfunded. They tended to have to prove themselves with harder numbers. Um, it was harder for new teams, especially to gain the trust of investors. And, you know, we kind of looked to reasons why that was happening. And so that's kind of been a theme again throughout, um, everything I took on. And then in artificial intelligence, it was similar. I would speak about ethics around AI and the ways that the technology was being built that could potentially be exclusive excluding minority groups that weren't represented in the data.

Abigail Hing Wen: And we saw this with some of the iconic headlines, like, um, there was a headline where an early algorithm for human resources was not correlating women with leadership roles. And so then, you know, fast forward, <laugh> this whole time, I'm also writing on the side. I wrote five novels on the way to Lobo, Taipei and Lobo. Taipei is the one that finally came out into the world. And I think the themes are consistent with the rest of my, my life. It's a girl going to Asia. It's about identity, trying to understand her identity between Eastern and Western cultures. It's about dance, which I love and choosing the traditional path versus, um, the path that her heart is calling her towards, which is, which is dance versus medicine. So I would say, yeah, it's, it may seem on the outside to be disparate things. But for me it has always felt like internally consistent. And so now we come to my last book, which is, um, about to come out love, boat reunion. And this one again is integrating various aspects of my life. It's about a girl ha who's now trying to marry her interests in artificial intelligence with her very kind of girly personality mm-hmm so I'm excited to have that drop into the world on January 25th.

Doree Shafrir: Yeah. I think this is coming out the day after your book comes out. Oh, amazing. So people will be able to, to get it. Um, well you, you know, you mentioned AI a few times, um, and I would love if you could give us just kind of a, a general overview of what do we mean when we talk about AI and what are the kind of like practical applications of AI in people's lives that, that like, maybe we don't know about? Um, because I admit to have a, having a pretty, like fuzzy conception of what AI can actually do.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. I have. I feel like everything I understand about it is like from science fiction movies from the nineties.

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. So I think you probably are experiencing AI all the time. It's in your cell phones, it's like in Google maps and you know, it, it's a way of, of computers processing a lot of information, um, and, and drawing patterns from that information. And what I think of it is it's like AI is making our lives easier and better. Um, it's I know there's a lot of science fiction out there and some of that actually is not, is, is actually inspiring, um, for the science field. Like I remember reading Isaac Asimovs books, um, when I was younger and there are devices on there that are actually iPhones, but he wrote this, you know, many, many years before. So, so what you read in science fiction is not actually necessarily that far from, um, going on in the field cuz the two, I think, inform each other. But, um, I would say, you know, in terms of AI, that's human level intelligence that we, that there's, you know, fear around taking over the world that we're nowhere near that.

Kate Spencer: Okay. Okay. Thank you. Reassuring. Okay, good. <laugh> I, I thought it was interesting that you mentioned and, um, racist bias within AI because I, I also feel like when it comes to kind of understanding it, that's not something that, you know, we are necessarily familiar with. Could you dig into that a little bit more?

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. So, so the, the area of artificial intelligence now that's, you know, quite, um, there's been a lot of research devoted is in how, um, machine learning and deep learning. And that is, um, again looking through large amounts of data and being able to build algorithms that make predictions based on that historical data. And so, you know, an example I gave about human resources algorithm, um, you know, I don't, you know, I don't know all the in, in inner working to that particular one, but the idea would be like, let's look at, let's build a machine that can take a look at all our resumes, um, and just surface the good ones like, so we don't have to bother reading all of them ourselves. Um, which, you know, I think is, is completely legitimate, um, need, because we do need a way to just quickly move through millions of papers so that we can find the best talent for our organizations the best fit.

Abigail Hing Wen: Right. And so you build an algorithm that I do would, um, find the best candidates for the jobs that you're looking for. But the problem with using historical data is that as it turns out, it reflects historical biases. So if you're, you know, and let me and let give a real world example to describe historical bias. When I was clerking for Judge Rogers on the DC circuit, she was serving on, um, the hiring committee for Harvard law school. And this, you know, many years ago, one of the questions that came up was like, well, we want all of our candidates to have had Supreme court clerkships. And a lot of these women unfortunately have not had Supreme court clerkships. And the judge, you know, this is the reason why you need diverse people on, um, these leadership decision making panels. She's like, well, they can't get Supreme court clerk ships because they're not being hired as Supreme court clerks.

Abigail Hing Wen: And so that's an example of systemic bias, that's per perpetrator. So a require where there's bias in one system that's being used as, um, criteria for another system. And then the, so the system is gonna have less of those qualified candidates. And so the same thing was happening with these algorithms except on a much larger scale. And unless you have people who can identify, Hey, this algorithm, isn't this facial recognition algorithms and working on darker skin, right? Like, unless you have people can actually point it out. Um, sometimes it's hard for the people building it to, to see that. But I think there has actually been a lot of work in ethics and artificial intelligence that I'm very encouraged by. Um, partnership on AI is doing great work in the space, especially, and I love it that so many people are thinking about it and are more cognizant of it.

Kate Spencer: I love that you really can see the connection in your passions and your, your career and the work that you do. I thought it, you, you explained that in such a really powerful way. And I find it especially moving, because we often get a lot of listener questions about making changes in one's career. Like very big changes, especially, you know, in your forties or late thirties or even fifties. Um, and one question we get a lot is like, is it too late for me? Can I like, can I still try this thing that I've always wanted to do? And I, I find that especially moving and just in kind of learning about how you came to, to writing novels, um, have, have you ever had experienced that feeling yourself or have there ever been moments, um, of rejection or failure where you have felt knocked down and decided to keep going?

Abigail Hing Wen: Yes. I've had many of those points of rejection along the way. I think a writer's life is mostly rejection similar to actors. I've been chatting with my actors about that. A lot of auditions to get to the one. Yes. Um, I, you know, it's funny, I I've done a couple of these interviews about second chances and don't really think of that as, as, as my path. Um, again, for me, it, it feels linear even though on the surface, it doesn't look that way.

Kate Spencer: No, but it, when you, when you explain it, it is so clearly linear. It actually reminds me of kind of, I mean, it reminded me of kind of my own strange, like jobs that I've had. They are actually very connected and deeply, um, built off the other. So I, I think it's very, I think it totally makes sense.

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. I I've, I have been writing my whole life. I started telling stories to my brother and sister when we were really small and I've been journaling since I was nine. Um, I think what I didn't know was that I could write professionally. Um, yeah, but even then, you know, I think I've been writing throughout college, my, my, my paper for my government concentration, then law school. And then I took my job clerking, even though I was going to go into corporate law. I, I decided to take a clerkship one because it was a year of public service with an amazing human being. Um, but two was, it was an opportunity to learn, to grow as a writer. And I did. So when we wrote opinions of the court, um, either the judge or I would write the first draft of the opinion and then the other would write version two, write on top of you and, and back and forth.

Abigail Hing Wen: And we, sometimes we go up to version 25. I still use that process today with my own writing, where I create new versions of my novel. Every time I do a major, um, revision, but I learn to write from her. She, um, you know, she took my words and she turned 'em into something else. And, and I got to do that to her. And so you just kinda learned the editing processes, um, is for everybody. So, yeah, so I, I would say that, you know, I've been writing my whole life and it's now coming I've now I think reached the stage where it's ready to come out in the world in a public way. Um but all those skills have been built over many years.

Doree Shafrir: Can we just, uh, take things back a little bit, because I think we got sidetracked initially, because we usually open our conversations by asking our guests about, um, self-care practice that they have. And I'd love to know if there's anything that you are doing currently. And if, if there's something that you do differently when you're away from home versus when you're at home.

Abigail Hing Wen: So I love hot baths. Um, back home, I have an outdoor hot tub, which I am in literally every single night. And I think it's just that feeling of being immersed in the water. I'm under the stars. It's where I relax and I can really settle. Uh, so fortunately <laugh> while I was here in Taiwan, my hotel had an amazing bathtub, which I was in as often as I could be. And now I'm actually speaking to you from this Japanese style hotel in LA tour, around the, a with my family, which is in the town that's known for hot Springs. So LA last night we were on the roof sitting in these hot Springs and we have in our bathroom, in the hotel, like a, a stoned, hot Springs tub built into the floor in this little outdoor space. So I'm so happy to be here.

Kate Spencer: Okay. Wait, I wanna circle back to your nightly hot tub routine. You have two kids also. So how, how, like, how did you establish that time for yourself? Or maybe you are amazing at setting boundaries and you and your partner, like just have it handled, but is it hard for you to carve out that time? Because I feel like making a ritual, like that requires such commitment. Um, and I I'm admire that you have that.

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. So we moved into this particular house about six years ago. Um, so that's when I started and my husband is when we found the house and he's like, let me saw you on this house. This is why this is the house for us. He showed me the hot tub outside. I'm like, oh my gosh, I love you. Um, so I think my, and my kids are a bit older, so, you know, I think that made it easier. I don't know. I can't remember those years when they were younger. It's all blur you and me both. You're right. It's incredibly hard when you have young children, but you know, they, I try to incorporate my kids into like many things. So for a while I was like having them sit with me out there, but I'm really the, the die hard dedicated one to the hot tub.

Kate Spencer: Are you, do you look at your phone or read or do anything like that or do, are you actually, do you give your brain just kind of free range to just think, or, or how do you kind of, what do you bring with You?

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah, that's a great question. So I used to sometimes I'll have my phone out there with me if I'm like expecting phone calls or meetings, um, to come through. Um, but, and I, I actually have a way of sitting there with my laptop too, so, Sometimes when I'm sitting there, like ideas will kind of strike and so I'll wanna like reach over, jot them down before I lose them. Um, but mostly I'm just thinking and reflecting when I'm in the tub,

Kate Spencer: Writing in a hot tub, sounds like the best way to write a book. <laugh> like way better than just sitting in this uncomfortable chair that I'm in right now. That sounds amazing.

Abigail Hing Wen: I am, I am definitely guilty of writing some of the words of my novels in the hot tub. <laugh>,

Kate Spencer: That's so great. That is the, I think you're the first writer I've ever heard who has done that. Although I hope others reveal themselves.

Abigail Hing Wen: I recommend that to everyone.

Kate Spencer: How have you handled rejection as a writer? I mean, is it something that you feel comfortable taking in stride or has it been kind of a learning process?

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah, it's definitely been a journey. Writing is so personal and you try not to take it personally. And I think I have evolved to the place where I am. I'm more thick skinned about it, but you know, for sure those early years I wrote my first novel and I had friends read it in two days and they loved it and it was so fun. It just poured out of me and it totally got rejected by all the agents. And that was hard. I was like, oh, I guess this won't be as easy as I'd hoped. So this is first novel of five novels that didn't get published. And you know, I would say I've had hundreds of rejections along the way, and every time you send out a query, you have so much hope for each of those that while this agent that you've been like, you know, Twitter, stalking that they say all these things that you love and you love them.

Abigail Hing Wen: And then they just send you back like a form rejection, like that's really painful. Uh, so I think I've just gone through so many that I've like, I've grown, but I've done, you know, I've done a lot of therapy along the way. I've also, I think what's really helped me is to, um, love the process and I love writing. Like that is why I write, I write because cuz I, it settles me because I can't not write. And like, even now, like I'm, as I mentioned, I'm on tour with my family. Like I'm like yesterday or two days ago, I said, you know, I think I need to write. And I'm feeling really antsy and it's cause I haven't in a while. So, um, I, you know, I remember hearing another author once say like if you compelled to write, because someone is telling you, you have to like, I give you permission to give it up. And at the same time, like if you want to write, cause you want to, then I also give you permission to do that. And I really appreciated that. I think that's really important.

Doree Shafrir: Um, I don't think you touched on this, but is your family with you in Taiwan?

Abigail Hing Wen: They are I'm so happy.

Doree Shafrir: You Said you're traveling throughout the island. Can you talk a little bit about that? What it's like having them there with you?

Abigail Hing Wen: It's So special to have them with me cuz it's actually my fifth trip myself to Taiwan. The first time I was 12 with my own family that I grew up with my brother and sister, my parents. Then I came for love boat, which became the inspiration for the book. Um, the third time was in 2018 when I was researching book one, then October of 2020 for book two research. And then now I'm here for the film. So it's really special for me to have them this tour around the island. I've done three times once on love boat once on my tour, but all by myself and then now with them. And it's a lot more communal less time to myself, less, less thinking, time, less writing time. But I get to share the things that I love with them. Yeah. So we just saw the Taka Gorge together yesterday. We hiked it. One of the, the natural wonders out here. Um, and then we went to Phil Guan, which is incredible Buddhist monastery with hundreds and hundreds of Buddhist statues, like just laid out throughout these incredible grounds. So again, I was like you've, these are the two things you really need to see while you're, while you're touring in the south of Taiwan. So it's so fun to share my world with them.

Doree Shafrir: Oh, that's so cool. So we're just gonna Take a short break and we will be right back.

Kate Spencer: Okay. We're back. Can you talk about, um, your own love boat experience and explain, and for listeners what that is for those who might not be familiar, which I, I was not familiar, um, and how it became the inspiration for Lobo Taipei.

Abigail Hing Wen: So Love boat is a program it's been around since the 1960s started by the local government here. It was to encourage overseas Chinese youth to reconnect with their parents' heritage. And that's exactly what it does. So I received an invitation. I was a presidential scholar in high school. Um, so the, the Taiwanese government would go through the, the list of scholarships like Koch scholars and, and what's now the Google scholarship and everyone with a Chinese last name received an invitation to this trip for free. Um, so I was like, sure, that sounds amazing. And I came with a bunch of other presidential scholars. I think there were six of us my summer and discovered it was actually this thing called love boat, nicknamed love boat by, by everyone. Um, because it was a place that kids would, were actually sent to find someone to marry. Um, but in actual was like, there's no super, no parental supervision. The kids were seeking out clubbing. They were, um, you know, going out on the town, we did this tour around the island that I loved. Um, and it just kind of became known as this summer free for all. And it was very well known in the Asian American community, but not really well known outside of it. And um, eventually I decided to, to write a fictionalized story of experience

Kate Spencer: And how has it been? I mean, it's so it's so interesting hearing you talk about having written five novels and the experience of rejection, because now you're in New York times best selling author and you're on the set of, um, your movie and you're a producer on the movie, which I think is so cool. Um, what has that been like to actually see these humans that you created come to life in this way?

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah, it has been like nothing else. I, I describe it and, and I think on my social media and a couple other pieces about it's like lowkey coming face to face with another lowkey <laugh>, it's like, it's really like experiencing the multiverse cause these characters they're, you know, they came outta my imagination. They're inspired by, by things that I know. And yet someone else is holding the pen for the screenplay and, and making them do things and that I've never made them do. But you know, one thing I really loved about this process, like the characters are really true to themselves. Um, so with the filming process, it's been the same, like we do so many takes of each scene and there's so many scenes and, and so I get to see like the characters iterating over and over again. And of course to meet the cast, um, has been such an incredible joy. Like they're all so well casted. And, um, I, I like just, I love them all. I love them all

Kate Spencer: That's so wonderful. I mean, that's kind of, that's such a surreal thing. I can't imagine it as a writer myself and it's gotta be so surreal and then to actually have this emotional connection with the people playing them sounds so special.

Abigail Hing Wen: It is really incredibly special. Like I was able to have an in depth conversation, each person about their character and, you know, just to trade notes. And, um, and how special is that?

Doree Shafrir: Oh

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. They, I mean, they know their characters almost as well as I do. And that, that was really incredible.

Doree Shafrir: That's really cool because I feel like authors, there's such a wide range of experiences when authors see their work translated into movies or TV. Um, so it's really nice to hear that you've had a positive experience. Um, I have a question which is, I know we touched on makeup, but what about skincare? Are you someone who is into skincare? Um, what products do you use? What is your routine? Can we hear about it?

Abigail Hing Wen: So my, yeah, my mom actually, um, was really into skincare when I was growing up. So she got me introduced to Shisheido very early on. I used Shisheido products probably since I was like a teenager, like early teens. Wow. And I think that really did pay off, but I, as I got older, I, I'm not sure why, but I somehow moved away from it. I think I just, um, met a lot of friends who use different products and I don't think I met anyone who Shisheido. So

Kate Spencer: Definitely not as a teen, I feel like as a teen.

Abigail Hing We...: So, you know, and I, I would see all these advertising. So I started using different things. Um, I have a pretty simple skincare routine that I got from my dermatologist. So I use, um, Cetaphyl as like a very simple , simple, um, cleanser. It's very easy on the skin. And then my friend Saba to hear who's also an author, um, recommended a grape seed oil as a cleanser. So I started doing that was really great cause it was hydrating and it was a bit counterintuitive cause it's oil, but it, it really works incredibly well .here in Taiwan, Ashley Theo who plays ever won, recommended this oil cleanser it's called Sekkisui, I'll spell it. Cause I, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly. S E K K I S U I and it's an oil and cleansing gel, um, from, Kose and I I've enjoyed it as well.

Abigail Hing Wen: It's kinda like so much of the grape seed oil then I have, um, I try to use a toner of some kind. So currently I was using Fenty skin, which is like this, uh, fat water toner that I picked up from Sephora. Sephora is like my go-to now for most of my skincare products. And then Ashley also recommended this, uh, another product from same brand called brightening emulsion. So I'm kind of trying it out and seeing how it goes. Um, and then the other thing that's been added recently to my skincare routine the past couple years also started by Saba and then Ashley again is, was encouraging. It is to do a, a mask. So I was doing them like once or twice a week. Um, just kind of a, a face mask that helps with moisturizing or kind of helping to, to retain that, um, hydration. And then Ashley recommended a number of products for me here too as well. So I've been trying out various Japanese brands. The one it's in my hand right now is called, is from Koto Jyun, and, and they've all been really, really wonderful in their own ways.

Kate Spencer: Those are great.

Doree Shafrir: Yeah. Is there anything Else that you can get in Taiwan that you can't get in the us that you would recommend people kind of hunt down?

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. So again, shout outs to Ashley. She gave me a million products. I'm like, tell me everything that you,

Kate Spencer: This is why everyone needs a generation Z friend, right. A young 20 year old friend and my actors

Abigail Hing Wen: Are beautiful. So, you know, I'm like, there's telling me, tell me everything, you know? So, um, Ashley recommended this sunscreen Vire UV. Oh yeah.

Kate Spencer: It's My favorite. Yeah, iconic.

Abigail Hing Wen: And then for, um, makeup remover, she recommended L'Oreal Paris, um, gentle lip and eye makeup remove for waterproof makeup. And we actually use the same product on set every day for community actors makeup. So it's great. Um, I've really loved it, especially for the eye makeup and the mascara. Um, and for a, for a moisturizer, I use this Japanese brand, um, that I get on. I used to get on Amazon, but it's, it's no longer there. So I, I found it like on another site, but it's, um, Attusais, a T T U S a I S premium amino cream. Um, and when I got it before, I feel like I had a slightly different name, but it's like, it's says gel, luminous, baby smooth skin. It's this pink cream with these little pink balls. I in them, I don't know what's in it, but my friend recommended it to me. And I used it for several years now. And I love it.

Kate Spencer: That sounds amazing. It does. I mean, I wanna, it doesn't, it's, it's not a hard sell for me. You'd say there's little balls in your moisturizer and I'm like, this is so cool. I've never seen that in my life. I buy, it

Abigail Hing Wen: . Oh yeah. The other thing that gave that, um, so I was in quarantine for two weeks here and my, um, I used an, uh, what it was Chanel's, um, eye cream and I really loved it. I never used it. I was a hydro ORIC acid and I, I felt like I had these bags under my eyes from, I don't know what it was past year of COVID maybe <laugh> . My production assistant picked that up for me. And I loved it.

Kate Spencer: I appreciate that you give an eye cream, a shout out because I feel like we've been having a debate going on four years now in this podcast of does eye cream do anything. And do we need it? Yeah,

Abigail Hing Wen: I don't know. Actually, I would love to hear your advice. <laugh> It sounds good for me, for sure.

Kate Spencer: I think that, that was kind of what we had recently actually talked about on a recent episode was like, even if it doesn't actually quote, do anything, there is this additional, just nice feeling of like a lighter, softer moisturizer going on the most delicate part of your face. That just feels very good.

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. Think it definitely helped. I felt like I had these dark bags in her eyes when I arrived in Taiwan and they're gone now. So I, I kind of attribute that to the Chanel eye cream.

Kate Spencer: Did you do quarantine with your whole family for two weeks?

Abigail Hing Wen: So I wasn't able to, because they came later than me. They had to finish out school. I see. See, um, they were in quarantine over the holidays.

Kate Spencer: Oh, wow. That's intense.

Abigail Hing Wen: Yeah. It's intense. It's a real experience. Yeah. Was

Kate Spencer: It it, what was it like doing it on your own? Um, did you go stir crazy?

Abigail Hing Wen: So I actually love it <laugh> and to my two, my kids. So that's both my kids. They also loved it. I, there is something really special about being able to shut up the whole world. Mm. And like, nobody can reach you, you, you do not have to make any decisions about social engagements or parties or whether to go to this or that event at school. Like, it's, it just simplifies your life in two weeks. And I was able to get a lot of writing done because, there's nothing else to distract me. Um, but you know, it does get a little lonely towards the end of if you're doing it by yourself. And so I think by the end, I was definitely ready to come out and, and see the cast and crew

Kate Spencer: I wanted to ask, um, for yourself as a reader, uh, is there a particular genre that you love, do you read a lot of YA or romance? Um, and is there any book that has recently kind of captured you that you would, uh, be willing to share or recommend?

Abigail Hing Wen: So I grew up reading a lot of fantasy and science fiction, mostly mostly fantasy. I had like a lot of Robin McKinley. Um, Princess Bride, of course I don't, I guess that's not really it's fantasy. Um, a lot of portal fantasies. I loved Harry Potter, um, the loved star wars movies. Um, so I actually think of love boat Taipei as a portal fantasy, even though it's not as a young adult contemporary novel, but it really is a afford fantasy. It's about a girl who goes into another world with its own set of rules and worriess and costumes and, and people. And she comes back transformed to her world. And that's exactly what a portal fantasy does. So my, I would say the books I'd recommend now are my Sabaa who had mentioned Sabaa to here's, um, new novels coming out, the young adult contemporary called All My Rage. And it's a really powerful searing gripping story, um, comes out in March and my critique partner, Stacy Lees luck of the Titanic, which just came out in may of last year, about eight Chinese who are on the Titanic and were written out of history. So she's kind of review life into them, given a, in the world.

Kate Spencer: Oh, that does sound really interesting. Wow. Okay. That's a great recommendation. Thank you. I gotta get reading. Do you read, do you read fantasy in your spare time? Still?

Abigail Hing Wen: I actually end up watching a lot of movies. Now, a lot of movies and TV shows because I've been moving into that space. So I, I joke that it's research for me, but I'm secretly addicted. <laugh>

Kate Spencer: That's fair. That's allowed. Well, um, ail, this has been so great to get to talk to you, especially you are doing this at six 30 in the morning, your time, we should say so like, this is probably the earliest anyone has ever joined us on the podcast. So you get a special award for that. Thank you very much.

Abigail Hing Wen: Oh no, it's my pleasure. I really love what you are doing and I'm excited to have a chance to, to chat with you.

Kate Spencer: So your book, your second book, the sequel to love boat Tai Pei just came out in the last 24 hours based on when we think this podcast is airing <laugh> <laugh>. Um, where can listeners find you? I mean, obviously your books are available everywhere and anywhere books are sold. Um, but where can we get more of your life?

Abigail Hing Wen: So I have a newsletter. Um, I send out your updates and you can sign up for of site Abigailhingwen.com. I am also on social media pretty much everywhere. I'm most active on Instagram for the book world. So that's again, Abigail Hing Wen everywhere. And, um, yeah. Thank you. I, I so thrilled that this book is out in the world. It's, um, it follows, as I mentioned, Sophie ha the girl in tech, trying to marry her interests in AI with her girly interest in fashion and Xavier. Yay. Who's another fan favorite as he's trying to get up from under his controlling father's thumb, he's been forced to repeat senior year until he graduates. Um, but really his plan is to get his trust fund that his mother left him and get the hell outta here. So I'm excited for folks to connect with their stories and looking forward to hearing what my readers think.

Kate Spencer: <affirmative> well, congratulations too. That's so exciting.

Kate Spencer: Thank You.

Doree Shafrir: I just wanna say that I kind of wish we had asked her to show us the bad in her hotel. because it sounded amazing.

Kate Spencer: I am obsessed with the idea of jacuzzi daily. Yes, totally. <laugh> like, it's so great on so many levels. Like once yes. It sounds warm. Your skin's getting snugly two. You don't have to with anybody it's like delicious alone time. Three. I love that. Sometimes she brings her laptop and works from the jacuzzi. It, yeah.

Doree Shafrir: There's just so much. That is amazing about it.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. I, I, now I don't have a jacuzzi, although, you know, Caroline MOS does have like a blow up jacuzzi. She does that's and loves it. Yeah. so maybe this is not a complete pipe dream for you or I, yeah. <laugh> can you imagine if like, like our husbands just like walk home one night and we're just blowing up our jacuzzi in the backyard without announcing what's going on. And we stake them out as just our spaces. I mean, cause like my kids would have goldfish crackers in the jacuzzi in like two seconds. It would be disgusting. <laugh> needs to be just moms spot. Well, Dory, uh, last week your intention was to read a paper book in bed and I'm actually dying to know if you did this.

Doree Shafrir: I Did not do this.

Kate Spencer: Oh. You know, I, I can understand why. So it's very hard to read a paper book in bed.

Doree Shafrir: Yeah. So, you know,

Kate Spencer: well you had also A bonkers week, like did you even pick up a book?

Doree Shafrir: I did. I mean, I, I I'm still reading persuasion. But otherwise, no <laugh> yeah. So that's where we are.

Kate Spencer: Um, what is on your plan for this week? Yeah, so

Doree Shafrir: This week, you know, my foot is still not like completely healed.

Kate Spencer: Did you Fracture your foot?

Doree Shafrir: I don't think I fractured it. I think I would <laugh> I think I would be in a lot more constant pain if I had actually broken my foot, but it's been almost two weeks and it is not fully back to normal. So I'm like, do I need to go to the doctor? Um, so I, I, I think I, I decided if it's not better by Monday, I'm going to call the doctor.

Kate Spencer: Good. I think it's worth getting like a referral to an orthopedic. So and so,

Doree Shafrir: Well, I think I'm gonna start with my podiatrist.

Kate Spencer: Okay. If you need a podiatrist recommendation, I have a great one, but it sounds like you've got a one.

Doree Shafrir: Okay. I go to our mutual friend, um, our mutual friend's podiatrist. She recommended it to me. Yeah.

Kate Spencer: Oh, okay. <laugh> Danielle who just broke her foot. So yes, that's a good, good recommendation. Um,

Doree Shafrir: Kay, what about You?

Kate Spencer: Mm. Okay. Well, last week I said I was gonna find one really good family, friendly vegetarian dinner to cook this week. I didn't. Okay. I didn't, that's fine. I don't even, honestly, I couldn't even tell you what we ate. I'm just,

Doree Shafrir: it was just one Of those weeks.

Kate Spencer: I'm just, I'm sick of, of, of the act of cooking. I'm I'm if I only had to cook for myself, my life would be amazing. I hear that, you know, I don't, and that's just my reality. And um, but I will say my nutritionist, who I met with, um, gave me like a really amazing massive index of recipe. Yes. And they're specifically like sheet pan pressure cooker, one pot, like easy stuff to make. Um, so I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna revisit this, but also knowing that like, you know, I can really focus on incorporating some lean meats in there. I will do that because we do tend to be a meat, eating family. That being said, uh, air fryer, tofu is a hit. So I'll just keep doing that. Ooh. Oh, fry fryer. Tofu is the best.

Doree Shafrir: air fryer. Tofu.

Kate Spencer: Yeah. I have I gone off about the air fryer get on this

Doree Shafrir: Podcast. I feel like we need to have like a whole separate conversation about that.

Kate Spencer: Okay. Yeah. We'll do we'll discuss air fryers at a future date because that thing has changed my life in a way that the Instapot was supposed to do. And didn't the air fryer did. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like everyone was like this instant pot, instant pot. It's just like a big bucket that sits in my kitchen. But this air fryer is a big robot that sits in my kitchen, but I use it. Okay. This week Dory. Okay. One thing I did this week that really has made me happy is I bought some flowers at Costco and I made two bouquets, one for my little family room area and one for my office. And so I am going they're on their way out. So I'm gonna get more fresh flowers. It just, I can make it smell. It makes my office smell nice. I like looking at them. So it kind of just really cheered me up this week to have fresh flowers around. I hadn't had them in so long. So yeah. So it's a fresh flower intention this week.

Doree Shafrir: Beautiful.

Kate Spencer: Thank you. Well, that brings us to the end of this podcast

Doree Shafrir: Indeed,

Kate Spencer: But not the end of our friendship. <laugh>

Doree Shafrir: No, not the end of our friendship.

Kate Spencer: Just like to look for a segue, but that one didn't really hit. That didn't really land.

Doree Shafrir: What if, what if like at the end of one show you were like, and this brings us to the end of our podcast and the end of our friendship. <laugh> goodbye. And I was like, What?

Kate Spencer: It's been great doing with this? You this with you Dori, but I'm done. I would never, I never God. Well look, shall you say it? Yes, we Shall forever. 35 is hosted and produced by me do Shrier. And you Kate Spencer produced and edited by Sam. Nia. Sam Reed is our project manager, our network partners, a cast. Talk to you all again.

Kate Spencer: Thanks for listening.

Doree Shafrir: Bye.