Episode 219: Abortion Access and Reproductive Justice with Jessica Pinckney
Doree and Kate announce their Giving Circle with the States Project, and Kate reports on some isolation prods she enjoys. Then, Executive Director of Access Reproductive Justice Jessica Pinckney joins them to discuss reproductive justice and abortion access, what’s happening to them right now, and how we can help. Plus, they chat about why romance novels are part of Jessica’s self-care and why she wants you to say the word “abortion” more.
Mentioned in this Episode
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer.
Doree: I am Doree Shafrir
Kate: And together we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: We do, and you can visit our website at forever 35 podcast for links to everything we mention on the show. We are on Twitter at forever35 pod Instagram at forever 35 podcast. And on Facebook where the forever 35 Facebook group password is serums.
Doree: You can also tootle-oot on over to shopmyshelf.us/forever35, where you will find all kinds of pros on various shelves. Kate keeps promising she's gonna do a butt care shelf.
Kate: You know, I am recovering.
Doree: So listen, stay tuned, stay tuned for that.
Kate: I had Covid19 doree <laugh> I cannot over extend myself to make this, butt care shelf. I will be making a, butt care shelf,
Doree: Listen. the people, The people are clamoring for a butt care shelf.
Kate: It was also funny being away for like over a week. My butt care. Like I didn't bring my butt care prods cuz I had to carry on. So I got home and I was like, oh, I gotta catch up on the butt care. Uh, Hey, you can also send up for our newsletter over at foerver35podcast.com/newsletter.
Doree: Oh my goodness gracious. Oh boy. Um, yeah. And don't forget you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. You can also email us at forever35 podcast, ga-mail.com
Kate: GA mail.<laugh>
Doree: What GA mail
Kate: GA mail really makes me chuckle. <laugh> that makes me chuckle. All right. Well doree, why don't you tell our listeners about a, um, project that we have in the works?
Doree: Yeah, we're so excited about this. Uh, first, well, first I just wanna give credit to Virginia soul Smith, uh, proprietress of the burnt toast newsletter and podcast, which we have mentioned on the show before she is the first person that I saw doing this. I know I'm sure many, many other people have been doing this, but she was the first one that I saw. Um, so thank you, Virginia. Anyway, it is a giving circle with the state's project and the state's project is an organization that works to shift the balance of power in state legislatures. So one thing that I've been thinking a lot about is how can I show up? Like not just in moments of crisis. Mm.
Doree: You know, like, because I feel like that has historically been my instinct, like, oh my gosh, this, this bad thing happened. Oh, panic, panic, panic. Like, what do I do? And then like a couple weeks go by. And it's not like I've forgotten about it, but like the urgency has gone. And I would like to just kind of channel some of that urgency into a more consistent, um, activism, I suppose. And so that was one of the reasons why I really liked the idea of the giving circle with the state's project, because what they are doing is they are really trying to build infrastructure in these battleground states. They're not, they're not, willy-nilly focusing on a million different things. They're not, they're not just talking about like the hot, young telegenic candidate. They are like boots on the ground organizing, building these local organizations so that Democrats can either hold or retake state legislatures. Because Kate, as we have seen in the last few years, those mother effers at the state legislative level, they can pass some shit.
Kate: Oh yeah, baby.
Doree: And
Kate: Like, they can pass some shit.
Doree: They can pass some shit. And like, I feel like we're like, I've kind of been sleeping on the state legislature stuff, but you know who haven't been sleeping on it, the Republicans
Kate: That's right. Doree. And luckily the state's project is not sleeping on it either. And one thing I think you and I have talked about is, is deferring to the experts who all are already doing the work
Doree: Indeed.
Kate: You know, and I think this is a thing that, especially us white ladies, like to come in and be like, what can I do? I'm gonna lead the way, but I don't know what I'm doing. And what we are really trying to remember and focus on is that there are already people doing the work and have been doing the work for decades and we are going to let them take the lead and we are going to support and learn and listen and follow and also put our beats, our boots on the GS.
Doree: Yeah. Our
Kate: B's on the, the G, which I believe is a, uh, a bitch Sesh oh, is it? Uh, yes. I believe the gals of bitch sash. Talk about b's on the G
Doree: bees On the GS. Um, yeah. And you know, I do just wanna clarify that this doesn't mean that like we're like, well, we're just gonna leave it to the experts.
Kate: Exactly.
Doree: That's not what this is about. This is about putting our money where our mouth is putting our time and energy where our mouth is, but not coming in guns blazing and saying like, oh, we're gonna solve this, but we have no clue!
Kate: Have the leaders.
Doree: Yeah. Yes. So, yeah. So that's what we're doing.
Kate: So how does this work Doree?
Doree: Okay. So we have set up this giving circle and we will, it's a kind of long URL. So we will link to it in the show notes, um, and you give money and then we will select a state to focus on. So the state's project focuses on seven battleground states, Arizona, maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania. And like I said, we have not selected which state we're gonna focus on. Um, we thought it would be fun to kind of maybe like let people who donate, vote to see which one we should direct the money to. Um, but we will, it will be going to efforts in one of these states. And yeah, that's kind of it, we're going to have Melissa Walker, um, who is the head of giving circles for the state's project. We're planning on having her on the pod in the next few weeks to talk a little bit more about that. And we are also planning on having a zoom with, um, her and us to just talk about kind of where the money is going, how else you can get involved, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so we're really excited about this initiative. Um, we are donating our own money to it. We're really excited. We hope that you all are as excited about this as we are.
Kate: Can I give a little speech Doree?
Doree: Oh yes.
Kate: I just want, is
Doree: It so is it a soapbox? Do you wanna get on a soapbox?
Kate: I'm gonna get on like a tiny soapbox. I just want to say, oftentimes when we talk about initiatives like this, that we're doing, we'll get a couple, a variety of messages. Most of them are supportive. Some are like, we disagree with you politically. How dare you bring politics into your podcast, which is fine. You may disagree with us politically. You do not have to participate. You are obviously welcome to be here. We love having you here. The third we get is I listen to this podcast, not to think about this stuff. Please stop talking about it and keep talking about serums.
Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Kate: And I just want to preempt, if you're gonna send that message, you don't have to, we have heard it. We've received the feedback and we've decided that we disagree. And this is an important part of not just our individual self care, but the care that we are trying to extend to our communities on a local and national level. And it is extremely important to us. We have heard that feedback before we see you. There are other podcasts that you can listen to that may not be having this content, but we also, again, welcome you to stay
Doree: Kate. If, if I could, if I could like applaud that a thousand million times, I would, that is the best soapbox you've ever gotten on.
Kate: And this is not to say that we're not gonna talk about products. I, in fact, am trying out a bunch of Dieux skincare products right now, and I am loving them. We will keep talking about all the stuff we talk about, but this is important. Mm-hmm <affirmative> we have a platform and we're gonna use it. ,
Doree: Oh yeah Baby.
Kate: And again, it's okay. If you don't agree or don't like it. Yeah. But that's not gonna change our minds. Yeah. On that note, doree, you want me to tell you quickly about these Dieux prods in a music? Yes,
Doree: I would. Because I've been so dieux curious <laugh>
Kate: First of all, I sure hope I'm saying this right. It's Dieux, right?
Doree: I think so
Kate: Okay. Charlotte parlor, if you're out there, make sure. Tell me I'm if I'm saying it right. One of the founders of the brand okay.
Doree: Isnt Parlor Her last name? Um, I think Charlotte parlor is her social media.
Kate: Oh, is that not Her real name? Yeah.
Doree: That's not her real name. Palermino is her last name.
Kate: I apologize. I, you know, I tend to just register people's names as like their handles.
Doree: Yes, yes,
Kate: Yes. And then I, and then, and then this happens where I realize like, oh, that isn't actually, yeah, you're right. Palermino. And I just call her par Charlotte parlor. Well live and learn. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> thank you for correcting me on that. Uh, so I have tried their three. I'm trying their three products. They're um, reusable little eye masks. Let me make sure I'm getting the name of these prods, right? doree part and me dieux skin shop now. Okay. So I am trying their three products. I bought their forever eye masks. I bought their deliverance serum and while I was at it, I was like, oh, why not? Let me try their instant angel moisturizer.
Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. So the eye masks immediate love, immediate love. I put them on with, I used like a, I put my serums on my face one morning. I put a Corez eye gel underneath my eyes, and then I slap these suckers on. And they're amazing. I'm obsessed with them. They're reusable eye sheet masks. So easy to use. Boom done. I get it. Now. I'm so glad I bought them deliverence serum. I've only used once, so I'm gonna have to report back, but we've had some listeners who've written in who love this stuff. So I'm excited to try instant angel skin restoring moisturizer. Let me tell you, this is a game changer.
Doree: Oh wow.
Kate: Okay. This product has come in hot into my group of thick ass moisturizers that I love. And it has like weezled its way into like the top three.
Doree: Wow. Okay.
Kate: This Stuff is good. This stuff is good. It's moisturizing. It is a, like a skin barrier, lipid packed cream.
Doree: Ooh.
Kate: And it's very rich. It's not super heavy. It's very rich on the skin. I'm obsessed with it. It's fantastic. So I'll keep using this guy, but, or this I shouldn't, I shouldn't gender, this moisturizer. I'll keep using this product, but I am liking it. And I will say it doesn't irritate the skin going on or my eyes, which is like, for me, if it stings going on, I have a problem. So this is the one I wasn't like. I just kind of threw it in the cart being like, why not? I'm here, you know, add it to the bag, but this stuff is good.
Doree: Wow. I think you've sold me.
Kate: Yeah. I, I was, I was really kind of surprised at how much I've liked it. So, um, I've been using it. Did I put it on my skin today? I didn't this morning, but I've been using it a lot and I'm really enjoying it, so.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to these dieux pros. They are quite good.
Doree: Wow. All right. Well I'm, I'm in, I'm on board.
Kate: You gotta get this one. I think I gotta get really like this cream. Um, and you're not a big, heavy cream person, but I think, I think it's light enough that you, you know what, it, it's very in line with skin fixes triple lipid, which we both love. Mm. So, So there we are.
Doree: Okay. All well, you know what, Kate, I am going to be doing on an upcoming episode, I was recently sent a bunch of those radio frequency Wand.
Kate: You were.
Doree: Yes, I was.
Kate: I wasn't. You were just sent a bunch of wands.
Doree: Okay. I'll I'll explain more later.
Kate: I am. I am jealous.
Doree: I just want to, I just want to report that I'm going to be doing some comparing and contrasting more to come on this.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: But I just wanna put it out there that some beauty gadgetry is going to be experimented with,
Kate: You know, I appreciate, you know,
Doree: I'm not, and I'm not a big beauty gadget person. No,
Kate: That's why my envy is showing because I love a gadget.
Doree: Well, look, I'm very generous. I'll only end up giving them all to you. So
Kate: Like, God,
Doree: Let's be honest.
Kate: We'll do This together.
Doree: <laugh>
Kate: But you know what? This is kind of exciting. Cuz what, if you find one and you're like, oh, this one changes my gadget opinion.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, maybe that could happen. Um, alright.
Kate: Can I give a brief shout out before we introduce our guest?
Doree: Yes, of course.
Kate: You know, they don't advertise on the podcast anymore, but liquid IV, an old podcast advertiser that we fell in love with has been really keeping me going during this COVID and post COVID.
Doree: Oh
Kate: Gosh time.
Doree: I'm so glad to hear that.
Kate: I'm just sitting here sipping a watermelon liquid IV in my water bottle and I just have to give them a shout out.
Doree: Ooh watermelon. Yes. They have some, I never more flavors watermelon. Okay.
Kate: It's really good. But I've been really trying to like, you know, hydrate, hydrate, hydrate, and uh, yes. Old liquid IV, just making a reappearance. I just wanted to shout them out. We miss you.
Doree: We do miss you liquid IV. You're abandoned. They abandoned us.
Kate: <laugh> it's okay. You know, not every advertiser stays and that's fine, but we keep using the products because we like them. Well, we are so excited about our guests. On our episode today, we have Jessica Pinkney here. Jessica is the executive director of access, reproductive justice and a community based organization, funding, abortion, and advocating for reproductive justice for all. Access removes barriers and builds the power of Californians to achieve reproductive justice. Jessica oversees the organization's work to combine direct services, community education, and policy advocacy to promote real reproductive options and access to a high quality of life For people in California. She previously served as vice president of government affairs at, in our own voice, the national black women's reproductive justice agenda, a national state partnership with eight black women's reproductive justice organizations. And as a government relations manager, for YWCA us a which one, which is one of the oldest and largest women's organizations in the country. Jessica served as a legislative analyst at the university of California office of federal government relations. I mean, goodness gracious. And she's an avid reader. She's a loving dog mom to her eight year old American bulldog. And she previously served as the vice chair on the board of directors for planned parenthood of metropolitan Washington and the chapter co-director for new leaders, council DC. Goodness gracious. What a resume.
Kate: Come on,
Doree: Come on.
Kate: We are so excited to bring you our conversation with Jessica.
Doree: Yeah, it its so enlightening and um, yeah, I'm just so thrilled that we got a chance to talk to her. All right. We'll be, right back. We are so excited to have you on the show today, Jessica. Welcome to forever 35.
Jessica Pinckne...: Thank You. Very excited to be with y'all.
Kate: Um, so we were chatting a little bit before we got started and I mentioned that we always start by asking our guests about a self care practice and you got a rather, um, alarmed look on your face. <laugh>
Jessica Pinckne...: It's just, um, interesting to think about self-care in this particular moment. In time. I am also, um, about four and a half months pregnant. So
Kate: Congratulations.
Jessica Pinckne...: Thank you. Uh, it's quite an interesting time to be pregnant and thinking about self-care and also doing the work that I do in abortion access, abortion funding. So, um, it's interesting cuz I feel a little bit like I don't have a choice in selfcare like my body really tells me when I can't do anything else anymore. Yeah. Um, or like when I need to eat <laugh> um, so it's kind of forced upon me, which is not necessarily a bad thing in this moment, but I would say my, my favorite self-care routine is definitely reading I'm an avid reader. Um, and that was something I wasn't able to do through the first few months of my pregnancy just cause I was super sick. Um, so trying to create more space now for reading now that I can stare at a page for longer than 20 seconds <laugh>
Kate: Can I ask you what kind of books you like to read? We, we talk a lot about books is, you know, a form of escapism, but also a wonderful way to obviously inform and educate ourselves. Do you have a genre that you are drawn to or okay. Oh gosh. Jessica's
Jessica Pinckne...: I, I do, um, I have a genre that I'm drawn to and I'm usually quite embarrassed about it, although I've just gotten over it <laugh> with time. Um, I read a little bit of everything. I love a historical fiction. Um, occasionally I can read non-fiction although, you know, as a social social justice advocate, that gets harder and harder, I would say. Yeah. Um, but my go to is contemporary romance novels. Um,
Kate: Jessica you're in the best space for that. That's what I write. And also all that I read, it's only what I write. Kate is a romance novelist, so you've come to the right place.
Jessica Pinckne...: Oh my gosh. That's amazing.
Kate: Welcome. Amazing. We're so glad you're here to talk about romance books and abortion access. <laugh> listen,
Jessica Pinckne...: I can probably talk to you about romance novels as much, if not better than Abortion <laugh> <laugh>
Jessica Pinckne...: But um, I, yeah, I just, I needed escapism, uh, in my line of work and you know, I think people always think of romance novels as like those heroines and like someone being carried away on like a horse or something, but there's like a whole contemporary genre that's really rooted in reality. Um, I love reading women of color, color authors. So Jasmine Gillery of course was my introduction into contemporary romance. But um, I, I love that. It's like relatable still too, you know, it's like, oh this is a real person. She works for the mayor. <laugh> of like, you know,
Doree: Bay Area stuff. Yeah. <laugh>
Jessica Pinckne...: Like, this is a life that I can somewhat relate to. Um, yeah. And it's just like nice to have a happy ending. We don't get enough of those these days in the real world. So I'm always looking for a happy ending in my reading. <laugh>
Doree: I, I relate to that. I don't read as much romance as Kate, but my big genre is mysteries and I always say like, I just need them to solve the case. Yeah. And like, that's the satisfying thing. <laugh>, you know, unlike real life we get the answer at the end.
Jessica Pinckne...: Totally,
Doree: Totally. Um, so I really relate to that.
Jessica Pinckne...: Yeah. I think that's really, the only reason I can read nonfiction is cause I often know how it is gonna end <laugh> oh gosh. Yeah. You know, you can like emotionally prepare for it a little bit.
Doree: Yes. Yeah.
Kate: Yes. The other thing I, I think about contemporary romance and then we can obviously move on, but it's incredibly intersectional and feminist and I think that is really amazing and totally not often what people who do not read romance really thinks. So totally. I'm thrilled to hear that you read contemporary romance. That is my bread and butter.
Jessica Pinckne...: Love it. I'm glad we have that in common
Doree: <laugh> um, well Jessica, as much as we would like to talk about contemporary romance with you for the next half hour, we did invite you on the show to talk about abortion access, um, and reproductive justice. So, um, could we start with just kind of a brief overview about what exactly is going on in the country right now with regards to reproductive rights and abortion access. And I realize this is a big question and one that could take hours to explain, but the, in the broadest possible terms, like how did we get here?
Jessica Pinckne...: Sure. That is a very loaded question. Um, but one, I unfortunately have an answer to, so, uh, essentially, um, at the beginning of may we saw, um, Politico break, uh, news that there had been a leak in the Supreme court and a draft opinion, um, had been released. And this opinion was related to the case that the Supreme court heard in December called Dobbs V Jackson, which was about the 15 week abortion ban in Mississippi. And um, in the reproductive health rights, I justice space. This was really kind of what we saw as one of the most, um, tangible or likely, um, attacks on Roe that we've seen in a Roe V. Wade that we've seen in quite some time, um, states have been trying to get creative to ban abortion at the state level. Uh, and usually those cases get stuck in the courts for long periods of time.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, meaning that folks are still able to access abortion, um, across the country. Uh, we did see in September that Texas enacted Senate bill eight, which, um, essentially bans abortion basically after six weeks, it's a little it's based on when there's a fetal heartbeat, which is usually around six weeks. Um, so we were already getting a sneak peek of what things could look like. Uh, once the Supreme court made their decision, uh, with the Texas ban. But I think it really became real for folks when the, the leaked decision came out. Uh, and it was clear that, you know, Roe V Wade, um, and the cases that followed such as planned parenthood V Casey were going to be, uh, overruled. And that would lead to, uh, abortion rights, essentially going back to the states, uh, meaning that about 26 states would immediately ban abortion. Um, I will say, and I think it's really important to name that Roe V. Wade has always been the floor for abortion, not the ceiling. Um, it was a right that was granted to pregnant people in 1973 when the Supreme court, uh, made their decision. But, um, for years, people have had barriers to accessing abortion care all across the country, even in progressive states like California, where I am. Um, so, you know, we really need to be holding the line right now on Roe V Wade, um, because it is the floor, but we also need to acknowledge that a right is only a right, if you can actually access it. And for many in this country, they have never been able to access abortion care. And that is likely to be very much exacerbated. Uh, once the Supreme court makes their final decision, as we anticipated to come at the end of June,
Kate: I know that what was leaked, uh, to Politico is a draft and not considered the quote final decision. And also currently abortion is still the law of the land. Roe V. Wade, excuse me, is still the law of the land,
Jessica Pinckne...: Correct
Kate: is there any hope that you see that, um, there may be some shift and is there any kind of conversations being had that, what, what we, what we see as this draft might change or is the feeling generally like this is it,
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, I am very much a glass half empty person. <laugh>
Kate: Great.
Jessica Pinckne...: Same, sorry. I'm a black woman in today's America. So it is what it is. Um, you know, I think the draft decision that was leaked, it was surprising that it was leaked and none of us expected to see it at the beginning of may. Um, but nothing I read in there surprised me in terms of what I expected the Supreme court to decide in this case, unfortunately. Um, do I think that that means that things couldn't change? No. Um, the Supreme court was, you know, created to be kind of, you know, the final stop and the law of the land. Um, and I think what we're seeing right now with this version of the Supreme court is that it's become politicized in a way the Supreme court was never supposed to be. Um, and they, I think what we see in the draft opinion very clearly is political beliefs, um, and religious beliefs.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, and so, you know, part of me wonders that there's a possibility that if there's enough outrage following the draft leak, uh, that they might not, you know, at least tone down some of the language, just because, um, of how, just how outraged people are. Uh, but the people who are outraged are not the people that, um, justice Alito and the, the other justices who are going to, you know, favor the opinion, um, really care about. So I don't have high hopes that we're gonna see anything drastically different when the final opinion comes out, unfortunately. Um, and even if we did, even if Roe was upheld, there's still a ton of work to be done for abortion access in this country. And this still needs to be the conversation that we're regularly having.
Doree: I'd love to talk a little bit more about that because I feel like I do sometimes see on social media, especially almost this like defeatist attitude of like, well, that's it it's over. And seems to me what you're saying is like, it's not over, um, we are still fighting. And so I was wondering if you could speak to that a little bit and kind of what, what can people do now to show up for abortion access?
Jessica Pinckne...: Sure. I, I mean, I wanna be clear whether abortion is legal in all 50 states or in half of the states in the country, people are still gonna get abortions. And it's just a matter of what we do to make sure that they can get the care that they need. People are gonna have to jump over far more barriers and, uh, you know, to access the care that they need, but people are going to continue to have abortions. And, uh, we know that to be true. pre-Roe V Wade during Roe V Wade. And in what we imagine is a post roe world. Um, I think what people need to be doing in this moment is supporting abortion funds. Um, my organization access reproductive justice is the only abortion fund in California, California. One of the states that is, uh, would still have abortion, um, available here in the state.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, but there are over 80 abortion funds across the country that have been working for decades that are black and brown led that are LGBTQ led that have worked with historically marginalized populations to get people access to the abortion care they want and need for, for decades. Um, abortion funds literally help people pay for their abortion procedures or medication abortion. They help people, uh, with transportation, with lodging, with childcare, with food, with doula support. Um, and so we know our services and our work is gonna be even more important in this quote unquote post roe world, uh, where people have to travel great distances. Is it fair? Do I think the end all be all is that people have to get on planes to get the abortion care they need. Absolutely not. But you know, we here in California really feel like, um, we are filling in where the government has failed its people, and we will do that until the government is no longer failing its people.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, so I think it's really important for people to donate to abortion funds, to donate to independent clinics, um, to really inform yourself. There's a lot of information out there about self-managing abortions with medication abortion. Um, and we all need to be, uh, as skilled up as possible in this moment. Um, and then I also would say, too, if you don't have the financial resources to support organizations and clinics and, and these entities, many of us need volunteers. Access has a network of over 500 volunteers across the state, 50 to 75 of whom are really active, but they drive people to appointments. Um, in pre COVID times, they housed people and we're talking about reintegrating housing this summer, um, and in calendar year 2021, they provided $15,000 in direct cash assistance to our callers on top of the a hundred thousand dollars that we provided callers. So, Um, you know, there's something for everyone to do, but I think, you know, not being afraid to say the word abortion, being able to have tough or easy conversations about abortion with your family members, with your friends, with your communities, um, is really important also because we have to do the work to destigmatize abortion, it's basic healthcare, um, and no one deserves to have to leave their home, their city, their state to access the care that they need.
Doree: Um, you mentioned your, the organization that you, uh, work for. Can you talk a little bit about what you guys do?
Jessica Pinckne...: Sure. So access reproductive justice, we were founded in 1993. Uh, so we are almost 30 years old. And I always say that because people think about California as this like blue bastion where you, you know, abortion on demand and access to everything. Um, but we exist because there's a unmet need. Uh, and we were founded by folks who were clinic escorts, who saw that people were coming to abortion clinics, didn't have, you know, were getting out of cabs, didn't have a ride home, didn't have lodging to stay overnight for multiple day appointments, needed financial assistance paying for the abortion procedure itself. Um, and so they founded access and we have done that work ever since. Um, so we off, we operate a Healthline Monday through Friday where folks can call in and we essentially support anyone in California receiving care here in the state, uh, anyone outside of California coming to California to receive care.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, and in some occasions, folks who are in California who have to leave the state to access care, um, and you call our Healthline, it's staffed by two amazing Healthline, uh, staff members. And, uh, we have an intake process. The intake process really just allows us to provide the, the best quality support we can. There are no requirements to access our support. Um, but we, we provide support with procedural funding, which is, you know, paying for the abortion itself. Uh, we partner with a lot of clinics across the state so that we can pledge directly to the clinic and the caller doesn't even have to worry about, you know, managing the finances of it all. Um, and then we also provide what we call practical support and our practical support looks like, uh, helping folks with transportation, with hotel stays, um, paying for childcare, paying for food while they're away from home.
Jessica Pinckne...: Uh, and then, you know, we also employ our volunteers to provide this support. So sometimes we book a hotel for a caller. If they have a two or three nights stay, we might book one or two nights of the hotel and ask our volunteers to cover, um, you know, the, the final night of the hotel. Um, we might ask a, a volunteer to drive someone to an appointment if they're in the area. Um, we sometimes call Ubers directly for, you know, Ubers and Lyfts directly for folks. Um, yeah, and we support in last year we supported about 500, just over 500 callers. Um, but if you look at January through April of 2022, compared to January through April of 2021, we've already seen a doubling of our call numbers. Um, so certainly anticipate that to continue and also drastically increase when half of the country has banned abortion, pretty much outright
Kate: For someone seeking abortion care, uh, who doesn't really know where to start. And I know it's, it's on a state by state basis, but what is the, the first step for someone seeking an abortion?
Jessica Pinckne...: Yeah, so I will say most of our callers have already found an appointment somewhere. So most of our callers are referred to us from clinics. Um, but sometimes people find us on the internet. Um, but usually what we advise folks is to find a clinic where they can be seen, um, and to, you know, get the appointment process started. Um, there are some really great websites. There's one called "I need an a", um, which is I need an abortion. Um, and then there is another site which I'm suddenly blanking on the name. Let me see if I can find it. And, oh, it's abortion finder.org. You'd think I would be able to remember a very simple name like that. <laugh> so "I need an a" and abortion finder.org are both really great resources for people. Um, you can put in your zip code, you can put in your last menstrual period, if you know how far along you are, you can put that information in, you can see like the state restrictions, you can see what kind of abortions the clinic might provide, et cetera.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, so yeah, we encourage folks to try and make an appointment. It just makes it a little bit easier for us to provide, um, support when we know like what people's schedules are starting to look like, but that's really the first step. Um, and that step doesn't really vary from state to state. Um, of course, if you're in Texas, for example, where abortion is essentially banned at this point, um, you could still use those websites to find the nearest available clinics to you. Um, and oftentimes clinics in your home state such as Texas can help refer you to, uh, other clinics. So I know like a lot of the planned parenthood, um, affiliates in Texas will direct people to planned parenthood clinics in other states. Um, but you know, you need to get an appointment, uh, depending on what state you're in. You may have to go in for an initial ultrasound.
Jessica Pinckne...: There might be a waiting period. That's where things start to really vary. Um, and then of course, if you need support in paying for your abortion or getting, you know, all of the, the wraparound services needed, that's when an organization like access reproductive justice comes in, again, we work really closely with clinics and so clinics can often refer their patients directly to us. Um, and then we're able to work with the clinic even better to kind of coordinate our support. Um, but sometimes people find us on Google or referred to us by a friend, um, or have called before and know that we exist. Um, and so in some of those instances, we can help navigate folks to clinics as well. It's like, oh, I'm 20 weeks along. It's like, well, we know there are not that many providers in California that provide abortions at 20 weeks and beyond. So we know the handful you could reach out to based on where you are in the state. We might recommend this clinic in Southern California or this clinic in Northern California, um, et cetera. So it varies pretty drastically, but, um, that's kind of, kind of the, the gist of it.
Doree: How did you come to, um, this work?
Jessica Pinckne...: I wish I knew <laugh> um, so I've always been really passionate about reproductive health and rights. Um, I'm a mixed race, black woman. I grew up with a black father and a white mother, and I faced a lot of like racism and colorism and just kind of challenges in my upbringing. Um, along with my like deep, deep passion for social justice work, my dad worked in politics. Both of my parents were like avid readers. We were always talking about anything that was going on. Um, so when I graduated from college, I moved to Washington DC cause that's where everything was happening. <laugh> and I had to work in politics and policy Um, and I really, I made a lot of friends based on my political beliefs. Um, there was a great group called the women's information network, which was all pro-choice, um, women like young women in DC, and there was this great list serve and we would, you know, have community events and things like that.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, and then I got involved with the planned parenthood in DC. I was on the board of planned parenthood, metropolitan, Washington, um, but something was always still missing for me. Um, especially with my racial identity and just understanding like the complexity of people's lives. And I was working at YWCA USA at the time. And, um, their work was all around empower empowering women and eliminating racism. And that's really where I kind of found a political home because I was like, yes, like you can't empower women without eliminating racism, if you're a black woman, right. If you're a woman of color. And that's when I learned about intersectionality, uh that's when I learned about the reproductive justice movement that was coined and led by black women. Um, and it really resonated with me cause I was like, I don't show up one day as a woman the next day with my black side.
Jessica Pinckne...: And the day after that, with my white side and the day after that as someone's wife or girlfriend, you know, like I am all of those things every day. And that impacts how I see the world that impacts how I navigate the world. Um, and that impacts how the world interacts with me and I interact with it. Um, so I really found like my political home in reproductive justice. And, um, this idea that it's not just about abortion, it's not just about contraception, that it's about bodily autonomy. It's about the right for us to make decisions that impact our lives and our families and our communities, um, and that, you know, police violence or contaminated water, um, or a lack of paid leave, all impacts your ability to raise a family and certainly impacts your, your ability to make it a determination about whether or not you wanna be a parent.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, and so I, I went to work for this amazing organization in our own voice, the national black women's reproductive justice agenda. It's a national organization based in DC, um, that has partner organizations in, I used to know the number six or seven states across the country. Um, and it's really lifting up the voices of black women and the, the amazing reproductive justice work that we all do. Um, and I joined this fellowship program. Um, the Rockwood Institute has a, has a fellowship program for reproductive health rights and justice leaders. And three of my fellow cohort members were abortion fund leaders. And it was, um, our program started in November, 2019. And so the second half of our fellowship was like very much in the midst of the beginning of the COVID pandemic. And I was like, I don't think I can work in DC anymore.
Jessica Pinckne...: Federal policy moves slow. You know, you have to say the same thing, 195 times sometimes to get it through a legislator's brain. Like they're still using outdated talking points. We're still using hanger imagery and talking about women when abortion is a pregnant person's, um, issue and affects all of us. Um, and I just didn't feel like I was making the impact that I wanted to make. And so those three abortion fund leaders encouraged me to apply for my job at access. And, um, I'm originally from California. Um, my partner and I had talked about moving back to California, did not think it was gonna be in the middle of a global pandemic. Um, but I got the job and we moved and it's the best decision I ever made in my life. Um, this work is hard, it is unrelenting. Um, but every day me and my team get to come to work and know that we're making a difference.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, and someone said to me in a meeting last week, uh, the day after the decision leaked, you know, people woke up all across the country today, pissed, just mad and not knowing what to do, not feeling like they had any power or control to make a difference and make an influence. And me and my team, and, you know, my colleagues in the reproductive health rights and justice spaces, we got to wake up and do something like, you know, my Healthline team woke up and answered the phone and helped people access abortion and we'll continue to do that. Um, so it just, it feels like I've been on a really important like personal journey, but also professional journey. And it's led me right to where I'm supposed to be, particularly in this moment. I think I would be really frustrated <laugh> if I was in DC right now, and I know many of my friends who are still in DC fighting the good fight, thank God for them, um, are frustrated. So I'm, I'm certainly frustrated as well, but really glad that there's something tangible that I am doing that makes, makes a difference in people's lives.
Kate: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay. We're back. I wanted to ask you a little bit about inclusivity and the language we use when we talk about reproductive rights. Um, especially when it comes to, to gender identity. I, I'm seeing a shift and I've been trying to kind of especially be conscious about myself when I speak about reproductive justice, but I would love to just hear a little bit more about how we can be more inclusive in the ways in which we, we speak about it.
Jessica Pinckne...: Absolutely. I love this question and I always, this, my friends in DC and federal policy will laugh if they hear this, because I used to always die on this sword with legislators. <laugh>, it's like stop saying women. All I ask you to do in your press releases at press conferences in your talking points is to stop saying women because, um, this is not just a women's issue, uh, abortion access, contraception. Those are, you know, reproductive health rights, justice are not just women's issues. It's about bodily autonomy and the ability to control our own bodies and make decisions for ourselves and our families and our communities. Um, trans people, gender nonconforming, people have abortions. It is incredibly offensive to those communities to just leave them out of the conversation entirely. Uh, they might not identify as women. Some of them may, some of them may not.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, and we need to just move away from this notion that this is a woman's issue because, um, I think that takes away from the power and the importance of this issue, you know, altogether. Um, so I think, I think there is movement in the movement away from gendered language. I think it's really hard for folks, you know, we, we get, we all get stuck in our ways at one time or another. Um, but you know, my decision I've said before, I think before we started recording, I'm currently pregnant. Uh, and that was a decision that I made with my partner, um, who identifies as a man <laugh> and, uh, you know, we're married and we're going to make decisions about our family formation together. Um, and if I had for, you know, if I had, for whatever reason thought that this wasn't a pregnancy, I could carry my husband, would've supported me in that decision, but it also would've impacted him and his family and his, uh, values.
Jessica Pinckne...: Right. And so, you know, I think there's like a morality thing around the gendered language. And then I also think there's just like a practical, not everyone who has abortions identify as women and that's okay. Um, we get really stuck, I think, in these gendered lanes. And it's like, if there's anything that the COVID pandemic shows us, if there's anything that the Supreme court draft opinion shows us, it's that what affects one of us affects all of us. Um, and so we just need to think about these issues holistically because they're not, you know, they cannot be siloed from each other. And that's honestly why we are where we are, is because we try and think of these as single issues and not completely interconnected.
Doree: Can you, can you speak a little bit more to, um, intersectionality and reproductive justice? Um, I guess what I'm asking is how, how do these issues around abortion access, um, disproportionately affect people of color?
Jessica Pinckne...: Sure. So, I mean, I can give you like the literal reproductive justice definition, which is essentially reproductive justice is the human right to maintain personal bodily, autonomy, autonomy to have children not to have children and parent the children we have in safe and sustainable communities. Um, and it's very much interconnected with intersectionality. Um, essentially, uh, a group of black women came together, um, in the early nineties and, um, were recognizing that the quote unquote women's rights movement, um, and the pro-choice movement, you know, were led by middle class and upper class white cisgendered women. Um, and, you know, going back to what I said earlier about Roe V Wade and a right only being a right, if you can access it. I think the language around choice really did not resonate with black women, indigenous women, other women of color, trans folks, so on and so forth, because for many people they didn't have a choice.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, they either couldn't access the care that they needed, even though it was said to be a right, um, or, um, you know, they were forced into carrying a pregnancy that they didn't desire. Uh, so the reproductive justice framework was really designed to reflect the full lived experience of communities, of color, um, the LGBTQ community, the trans gender non-binary community, um, immigrants and folks living at the margins, um, and, you know, reproductive justice is very deeply rooted in social justice and, um, and in intersectionality and the, the notion that, um, you know, we don't get to separate our, our decisions around whether or not we are going to have a family from what our economic status is or what our, you know, our political status might be in the world, um, that we can't make determinations about whether or not we wanna have children without thinking about whether or not we can raise those children in safe environments, free from harm, free from destruction, free from violence, um, that we can't raise those families.
Jessica Pinckne...: If we don't have a steady income, um, if we don't have paid family leave or, or sick leave or whatever, you know, we might need in that regard. Um, and so, yeah, I think reproductive justice just really built on the reproductive health and rights movements and the pro-choice movement, but takes it a step further. I think it's a really holistic framework. Um, and I think it humanizes a lot of what it is that we're talking about, um, because it's not just, oh, I'm getting an abortion. It's do I have a car to get to the clinic? Do I have the money to pay for this abortion? If I chose not to have this abortion, do I have the family or, you know, friend community support that I need to raise a child? Can I ensure that the child that I choose to have is going to be safe to play in my front yard and not be gunned down by police, right?
Jessica Pinckne...: Like all of these really important things that go into your decision to have an abortion or not have an abortion, um, to choose to be a parent or not choose, choose not to be a parent. Um, and so I think intersectionality brings a really important holisticness to, um, the conversations we need to be having it's yes, abortion is healthcare. It's a simple procedure, it's safer than many other healthcare procedures that people try to access. So there's that, there's that very like basic notion. And then it's far more complex than that, right? It's stigmatized, it's politicized and, um, barriers, disproportionately impact people who are experiencing many other barriers. And we have to be able to have that conversation and understand that nuance to really advocate for policy change and social change that is necessary to move us forward.
Doree: I think it, it is, it's so important. Like you say, to really think about that access and policy are they're intertwined. Um, and it's not enough to have, you know, the law on the books. Um, there's kind of all these other things that go along with having those laws on the books about abortion, um, that are so important to remember. So thank you.
Jessica Pinckne...: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Kate: I was curious about what are the ways in which, um, these abortion bans restrictions, um, actually, I would love for you to tell me the proper way to say that, um, how that's gonna impact, uh, or, or what, what is the ripple effect in terms of, of healthcare and healthcare access?
Jessica Pinckne...: Sure. Um, you can call them abortion bans. You can call them abortion restrictions. We've got a lot of terminology in the movement. Um, I mean, as it relates to accessing abortions, it's definitely gonna put a strain on abortion providers in the states where abortion has not been banned. Um, you know, we've already seen a taste of that I would say with Texas. So when Texas banned most abortions, uh, folks started leaving the state to access care. So they were going to Oklahoma, they were going to New Mexico. There are only so many clinics, um, and providers in those states and very quickly wait times went from like three days to three weeks. Um, folks in Oklahoma and New Mexico couldn't always access the care that they needed because there were, you know, there was such an influx of Texans coming to their states. Um, so then, you know, there's kind of a rollover effect.
Jessica Pinckne...: So that's when we started seeing more Texans coming to California. Cause it's like, if you can't get an appointment in New Mexico, if you can't get an appointment in Oklahoma, then you're gonna go to Arizona, then you're gonna go to Nevada. Then you're gonna go to California or you're, you know, you'll, you'll go east to other Southern states, which have a lot of restrictions. And, um, you know, some states have very few clinics. So there is a ripple effect in that regard, in terms of how it affects anyone's ability to access abortion care. Um, and also, you know, we're putting people in positions where they might have to wait multiple weeks to access their abortion, and that can push them further into their pregnancy, which can make the procedure more expensive, which means there are often less providers who who will perform the procedure. So it impacts your, you know, access to healthcare in a lot of different ways.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, I think another fear that is very much warranted is that this Supreme court decision will lead to the rolling back of many other rights we have. Um, and you know, the affordable care act was not a perfect piece of legislation or policy by any means, but we've really been able to gain and increase a lot of access to healthcare through the affordable care act. Who's to say that they're not gonna roll back decisions in the ACA um, you know, the Oklahoma governor's already talking about Roe is not the only thing he plans to ban. He plans to ban contraception. Um, so not only are you gonna tell people that they can't have abortions and you're gonna force them into pregnancy, but you're also gonna tell them that they can't protect themselves from an unwanted pregnancy in the first place. Um, so there are certainly ripple effects.
Jessica Pinckne...: I think that we'll see across the healthcare system. I hope that in progressive states where abortion is still accessible, we'll see an increase in providers, um, who are able to provide, you know, the full range of reproductive healthcare for folks. Um, and you know, I think it's really important too, to think about ensuring that providers are, are trained in cultural competency, um, that we have a diverse provider network that is representative of indigenous communities and representative of rural communities, representative of Southern states and communities where people's lived experience is certainly going to translate to the type of abortion care and abortion access they need. Um, but yeah, I mean, some of that's really unknown, like what impact this is gonna have, not only for reproductive healthcare, but for healthcare at large, but I think we'd be fools to think that there's not gonna be an impact at all.
Doree: Mm <affirmative> um, yeah, I mean, the, the ripple effect, like you said, just when you kind of play it all out, it's, it's extremely, extremely scary. Um, well, Jessica, thank you so much for your time. Um, and for sharing all of this with us, um, we are so grateful to you and grateful for the work that you do. So thank you for that as well. Can you kind of just briefly touch on how our listeners, um, can get involved?
Jessica Pinckne...: Yes, absolutely. Um, I strongly encourage, uh, folks to go to accessrj.org. That's our website where you can both donate to us. You can also, um, find our volunteer interest form if you're interested in becoming a volunteer. Um, if you're not in California, I strongly encourage you to go to, um, abortionfunds.org, where you can learn about the abortion fund that likely exists in your state. Um, in some states like Texas, there are 10 abortion funds, um, across the state of Texas. So plenty of places where you can not only give your financial support, but your physical, uh, and emotional support. Um, I also really encourage folks to, uh, look into the independent providers in your community. Um, we love our planned parenthood clinics. We love our planned parenthood affiliates. Um, but the majority of abortions are performed by independent providers and clinics across the country.
Jessica Pinckne...: Um, and they're trying to figure out how to keep their doors open, uh, even if abortion is banned in their states and how to make sure that they can keep their staffs whole and, um, not put people out of jobs, which really goes against our, our values. So, um, please look into the abortion care network. They represent all of the, the indie clinics across the country, and you can get connected to ways to support the clinics and donate to them as well. Um, and lastly, please just say abortion, say it all day every day. I say it more than I say my partner's name <laugh> so just we, we have to normalize it. Um, it's no different than going to your healthcare provider for any other service. So, um, just strongly encourage people to do whatever they can to help us destigmatize. Um, what is basic healthcare?
Doree: Well, thank you so much. It was great to help. Thank you.
Jessica Pinckne...: Thank You so Much.
Kate: Thanks so much. Well, I'm, I'm happy to report that I have been stretching and I've been doing some yoga and I actually, you know, I have been getting acquainted with dream forever 35 guest, Adrian of yoga with Adrian. And I've been doing some of her like morning yoga. I'm thinking about doing her 30 day yoga program that she has.
Doree: Mm mm-hmm <affirmative>
Kate: She's just a, she's a really, I know everybody already knows this and I'm just, you know, I'm one voice of millions, but she's a really lovely yoga teacher. And, um, I have found her videos really accessible. So, uh, I have been enjoying them. And then my intention this week is that I need to keep aiming for, excuse me, early bed times, because I am sleeping like nine to 11 hours a night right now. Um, post, you know, I'm kind of, I'm not, COVID positive, but I'm co you know, I still have the lingering symptoms. Yeah. And my body clearly needs rest. You know, I slept from about 9 45 to 7:00 AM last night.
Doree: Oh, that's so nice.
Kate: Yeah. And I really need to honor that. So that's my intention for this week. Rest, rest, rest.
Doree: Well, Kate, um, my last week's intention of mine has been like lost to history. Um, But I, this week, I think I am going to, I, I wanna start a new book. Um, you know, I went, I went on like a tear and read like a few books, like right in a row, and then I needed a little break and now I'm ready to get back into it.
Kate: So, and do you have one that you're going for?
Doree: I do have my, my friend, uh, Janelle Brown's new book, which is called, I'll be you. Oh, um, and it's about identical twins whose like lives diverge. And then they like come back together, but it's like kind of a, I don't wanna call it a thriller, but it's, it's got like thriller elements to it. Apparently
Kate: That was a real doree vibe to it.
Doree: It's got a real doree vibe, so I'm excited to get into it. Um, so I think that's gonna be my next, I think that's gonna be my next book. And I, I will say like, <laugh>, I think it's gonna be one of those books that like, I don't wanna stop reading, which I think has actually been, what's been like stopping me from, um, starting it <laugh>
Kate: Cause you know, you need to commit and you're gonna be up till two in the morning. Exactly.
Doree: Mm-hmm exactly. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I'm like, oh, okay, well I gotta like be ready for this <laugh> so, um, yeah, that's, that's kind of, that's kind of what, I'm what I'm, that's what I'm going for.
Kate: I'm in the market for a new book too. I, I did just finish Ruby Dixon, author of ice planet barbarians, the half Orks maiden bride in which, uh, oh, a half Ork and a maiden get married.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Yep. Yep. So I'm in the market for something.
Doree: All right. Well that is very exciting. Are you, are you looking for recommendations or are
Kate: no, I've got two books on my bedside table that I've kind of been like saving. I've got Jasmine Gill's new book by the book we got. Oh yes, yes, yes. Something Wilder by my dream team. Christina Lauren, they're both just kind of sitting there being like when you're ready, baby. I, these are like two of my authors, so I'm like, I don't, I like to savor,
Doree: I also got, um, Jasmine's new book and I'm also really excited to read it. So thank you for reminding me.
Kate: Well, look, luckily we've got a whole summer ahead of us, so we
Doree: Do
Kate: Well, doree TIS always a pleasure to, with you.
Doree: Tis indeed.
Kate: And friendly reminder that forever 35 is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, our network partners. Acast we thank you from the bottom of our hearts for listening.
Doree: Bye.
Kate: Bye.