Kate tries a new lip product that seems like wizardry and Doree prepares to have people over for dinner for the first time in a while. Then, Washington Post columnist Taylor Lorenz joins them to talk about how Tumblr started her journey into reporting, why she thinks ADHD helps her do her job better, and why she has probably thousands of unread text messages. 

Photo credit: Sara Kenigsberg

Mentioned in this Episode

• Clinique Black Honey Lipstick

• Pixi + Hello Kitty Lip Tone

• Don’t Reply To Your Emails by Taylor Lorenz

• Laura Mercier Liner

• Latisse

• Taylor's Twitter

• Taylor's Instagram

• Taylors TikTok 

• Taylor's Newsletter 

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Transcript

Kate: Hello and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer

Doree: And I Doree Shafrir,

Kate: Doree. We like to say that we are not experts.

Doree: It's true, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate: Welcome to the show. Please feel free to visit our website forever35 podcast.com for links to everything we talk about here, you can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod and Instagram at forever 35 podcast. And, uh, you can check out the forever 35 Facebook group where the password is serums.

Doree: Indeed, you can sign up for our newsletter forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And if you want to reach us, you can call or text us (781) 591-0390. And you can email us at forever podcast, gmail.com.

Kate: Well, let's jump into things.

Doree: Let's do it. How's it going?

Kate: Okay, Doree. This is like not, you know, like breaking news, but I tried something called a lip tone that pixie sent us. They sent us some lovely products that they're like doing in a collab with hello kitty. And I was like, okay, fun. And I just randomly was like, I'm gonna grab this and bring it with me. I think I was going like to meet a friend for like an outside. So I was like, my, my lips will maybe be seen, you know how, like, I've kind of, I know that many people are existing in an unmatched life right now, but I am still getting used to the fact that like my lips might be seen.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: And I'm still masked a lot just based on like where I am and stuff. So I kind of forgot what it's like to like always have my lip prods with me, you know?

Doree: It's So weird.

Kate: And in another episode, we're gonna talk about how like generation Z thinks they've discovered clinics, black honey, and I'm annoyed. Everything generation Z does. I have to say annoys me. I've become like a real get off my lawn. Old lady Fucking Get a, a, we were hip to black honey in the late eighties and early nineties, like get over yourselves just cuz something's viral on TikTok. Doesn't make it like new

Doree: Black, black honey is like 50 years old. Like we didn't even, we didn't even discover black honey 10 years

Kate: Old than us. Yeah. Oh I know. I just, I have this like really grumpy vibe right now where I'm like, oh you, you didn't discover this, but this is truly like me transitioning into becoming a curmudgeon any way. That's a topic for another time. I have to get a shout. Oh

Doree: Yep. Can I just say one thing about this?

Kate: Oh She's circling back.

Doree: I'm circling back. Um, I actually, like, I think it's kind of fun when gen Z like discovers some old prod. That's like been, I mean, black honey was never forgotten, but I feel like that like they're gonna get into like ponds cold cream or something. You know what I mean? Like they're gonna like rediscover something and I, I do think it's like kind of cool when they do that. However, it is not cool. When the people who have been faithfully using these products all along. Yeah. Suddenly can't get them.

Kate: No, it's so fucking annoying.

Doree: Like I think this happened also with Cerave. Yes. When like TikTok discovered Cerave, like Suddenly like couldn't get Cerave anywhere. Which like was very annoying for all the people who had just been plodding along using their Cerave.

Kate: Now, like on the flip side, do I want my book to go viral on TikTok and have everybody buy it so that nobody can get it. Yes, please. Like I wanna benefit off of TikTok, but I also wanna reserve the right to be a grumpy 42 year old. Who, who feels like, you know, I'm like, come on, we did this already. Although then like I remember all the things that I thought I was discovering that older people, when I was a teen, were probably like get over yourself so perspective. Okay. Quickly back to this product though. It's Called Pixie plus hello, kitty lip tone. Here's what they say on their website. A pH reactive lip gloss enriched with rose hip seed oil and mango butter to help hydrate and soften while leaving a sheer touch of color. That is unique to you. Okay. So I was like, sure, whatever, like this product's gonna give me some magical color. It's a clearish like light, creamy, white color.

Doree: Okay. But

Kate: My lips did change color. It Was wild.

Doree: Wow.

Kate: Yeah. They turned into this like dare I say, almost a black honey deeper kind of pinkish. It looked like I had put on a lip color. And I, and one thing that I was genuinely impressed by the lip gloss is I find most lip products really dehydrating. Like I basically only wanna put Vaseline on my lips, but this really sedate on for a while and it didn't dehydrate my lips. So I was, I was very intrigued now. I only used it this one time, but it made a lasting impression. And uh, tonight Anthony and I are doing an outdoor activity and I'm gonna bring this in my bag. Oh,

Doree: So

Kate: Product plug. Yeah. I was really impressed by this, this little workhorse. What I can't determine from their website is if they make it when it's not part of a hello kitty collab. Um, so I need some clarity. I'll, I'll maybe reach out to the, our friends at pixie and, choir because they've been very generous with sending us prods. Um, so I will, uh, I will ask, but I really like this stuff. It's $8 on their website and it's really cool. Like if you want a little magic trick to go along with your makeup application, plus it lasts and feels good. Endorsed, consider it, endorsed.

Doree: Wow. Kate. Yeah. That was a, that was a really enthusiastic endorsement. Well,

Kate: It's always like exciting when a product surprises you. You know, not just like when it like does what you think it's going to do, but when it like shows you another side of itself that you didn't expect Anyway, I'm really excited for you because you are doing something that you haven't done in a while. And it just knowing that you're doing this makes me filled with joy.

Doree: So we're recording this on the day of the first night of passover. And we were just gonna do like a Seder with a, a very short, you know, Henry's so little, it's like, I'm not gonna make him sit through like an hour long Seder. So we were just gonna do a very like abbreviated Seder. Um, but I had ordered some food because my new thing about holidays is like, I don't wanna cook. Um,

Kate: Oh my God. Yes. Snaps to that Doree.

Doree: Thank you. Um, and, but then a friend and her family are in town and they're not Jewish, but we were kind of talking about when we were gonna see them. And I was like, well, why do you guys just come over for Passover? So yes, they're gonna come over tonight. I'm a little nervous because like, we haven't had people over other than like our families.

Kate: Are you nervous about COVID or just like social interaction?

Doree: Kind of like, like I was like, oh, our house is like a disaster, you know what I mean like that kind of stuff.

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: And I mean, she's a good enough friend that I don't feel like I need to like put on airs or whatever, but like, you know, you don't want your house to seem like a total pig stye. So we gotta do some straightening up this afternoon. I mean, I think a lot of it will be like, just shoving a lot of the stuff like in the back of the house, you know what I Mean?

Kate: Yeah. Oh, I love a closet shove.

Doree: Yeah. Kicking the can down the road sort of. Oh yeah. Um, it was funny because I was, I was texting her and I was like, please, like, I, my house is just a mess. And she was like, are you kidding? Like, don't even worry. She's like, you have a toddler, like whatever. And I was like, but I was like, honestly, he is like the cleanest of all of us.

Kate: Excuse me. He, he's a very neat little guy.

Doree: He's a very neat little guy. He knows where everything goes. He wants everything back in its place at all times he loves to clean and like Matt and I are like, oh, like we just have piles everywhere. And I just feel bad because I'm like, here is our, like very organized child who has to live with these chaotic parents. Like two nights ago, I turned out the light to put him to bed. And he was like, he was like, he, he asked to bring his lawn basket back in the room because it was still by the washing machine and wanted it like back in its place. So I had to go out and get the laundry basket and bring it back. And he was like, OK.

Kate: Oh my God. I love that. He is his own little person.

Doree: He is very much his own little person. So I was like, as much as I would to blame it on my toddler. The fact of the matter is his, his like area of the house is the cleanest.

Kate: He's not the problem is what I hear you saying. Yes,

Doree: He is not the problem. And I just need to own that.

Kate: Well, listen, I think that's a good step for you

Doree: I would, I actually be really curious to hear from other people whose children are needer than they are. Oh,

Kate: I have one.

Doree: Oh, you do?

Kate: Yeah. She loves collecting things, Eleanor, my oldest, but she like is very on top of kind of keeping her space, how she wants it. And she does her, my kids have to do this, her own laundry and she does it like without me ever asking and then brings it into her room and puts it and like puts it away. And I never put my own laundry away. It takes me a week to take a laundry basket and put it away. And she's just like very on top of it in a way that frightens me. I did know how to do my own laundry until I got to college because I had, I was very spoiled and my mom did it. So I mean, she's not like nobody in our house is like, you know, that super stereotypical neat. But that's definitely very different than how her parents are.

Doree: Right. Well, Henry already does his own laundry, so we're good. There It's literally his favorite activity. I know.

Kate: He's like only three. Oh, I love him so much. What a, what a little guy

Doree: I mean, yeah. I, I, I won't go into it too much, but yeah. He's like he washed out his lunch, his like snack container the other day. Like he just is like, he's so funny.

Kate: I mean, you never Know who these kids are gonna be.

Doree: You never know who these kids are gonna be. I also am like fully at peace with the idea that this could totally just be a phase. And in like two years, he'll be like, oh fuck. No,

Kate: Right when he has like a little bit more agency. And self-awareness.

Doree: But you know, I will say he has been like this since he was a, like a baby. So I, I don't know. This might just be who he is.

Kate: Well, look circling back to you, hosting a Seder. I have at the privilege of attending a Seder at your home many years ago, it was when you had first just gotten Beau and yeah, it was wonderful. You and Matt are wonderful hosts. You're very warm. You're very welcoming. You make everybody feel at ease. And I just think it's going to be a lovely experience. I'm very excited for you. And I know Passover is, and a sadder specifically is a really special, um, holiday. So I'm, I'm excited for you.

Doree: Thank you, Kate. Well,

Kate: Should we? Yes,

Doree: I was just gonna say before we take a break, let's introduce our guest.

Kate: This was exciting for was

Doree: It was, it really was.

Kate: Our guest today is Taylor Lorenz. Look, if you aren't reading her reporting on the digital space, I don't know what you're not what you're doing. I truly don't. Every time I see that she's published something new, I am, I read it immediately. Taylor is an LA based technology reporter who previously wrote for the New York times covering internet culture, but recently joined the Washington post. She writes about social media, online trends, influencers, fandoms, memes, gaming, YouTube, and more. She's also written for the Atlantic Buzzfeed, many other publications. And look, she's been awarded the coveted 40 under 40 and a few years ago received the night visiting fellow at, uh, at Harvard, no big deal.

Doree: She is. She's so interesting. She, you know, she's become sort of this like lightning rod figure, uh, and is like hated by some corners of the internet. And it's, it's just like sort of wild to see. Um, and it's because she writes about these topics that are like, she kind of gets under the hood of a lot of stuff having to do with like digital culture. And, um, I don't know. She's just, she was just really interesting to talk to.

Kate: Yeah. I've learned a lot about, uh, the internet from reading her stuff. It's been really, it's always very illuminating to read something she's written

Doree: Also. She has a truly chaotic approach to text.

Kate: Oh my gosh. I can't wait to talk about it. I mean, you're gonna hear all about it. It's wild. So without further ado, let's take a break and we'll be back with Taylor.

Doree: All right. We'll be right. We are so excited to have you here today. Taylor, welcome to forever 35.

Taylor: Thank you so much for having me.

Doree: Yeah. This is such a treat. Um, well, as I'm sure you, you know, we start all of our guest interviews by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So we'd love to hear from you about something that you are doing that you would consider self-care.

Taylor: So I wrote this article several years ago called um, I think it was called, like don't respond to your emails. And it was just basically like I set up a permanent out of office responder on my personal email address, just being like, I'm not gonna check this very much and please don't expect this as like a way to get in touch with me. And I've kind of taken that and adopted it across for me. Like I just don't check my messages. Like I check, I just don't check my text. I think I have a couple thousand unread texts and wow. My feeling is like, they'll get me if it's that important. And I know I miss stuff, but it's my self care cuz otherwise I was just having, it was too much before to check everything.

Kate: So it sounds like you've had to set, I mean you cover the internet and digital culture and so it sounds like you had to set boundaries in those spaces and I'm assuming in order to keep doing the, the work that you do.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, if I just spent like the, if I just responded to everyone that messages me up every day, like I would never, I would, that's the only thing that I would do. Um, and I wanna be on these platforms. I don't wanna be active on these platforms, but like I can't have really that many like one on one interactions on even like text. Um, and so my really close friends know to just call me and they'll always just call me out of the blue and I call that I'm out of the blue, but um, yeah, I just really don't respond to a lot of people, uh, in general. I mean, unless there's a story, like I'll always respond to a source or a tip, but uh, I just kind of, I don't know. There's just a lot of useless stuff, especially email. I feel like most stuff people email you about can resolve on its own,

Doree: So, oh, oh

Kate: Gosh. Okay. Let's dig into this because

Taylor: It's chaotic,

Kate: I do think back to like 20 to 25 years ago when we didn't, we didn't even, you know, we rarely had email and now there are so many ways to hound each other, you know, often time I'll get a message and I won't respond. And then I'll forget if it Facebook messenger, a DM, an email, a text, like the kind of brain overwhelm is really heavy. Um, and I, I would love to know how this boundary is received because I feel like I, people do not like that feeling of not being able to directly communicate

Taylor: People hate it. And people really hate that. I don't respond to things like the number one thing that people get mad at me for. I've seen people subtweet me about is like, you know, we invited Taylor to do X, Y, Z, and she didn't even respond. And I'm just like, I'm one. And like, I'm, I don't have an assistant. Like I don't, I do everything myself and I cover this beat. That's so online in a way, like I'm already so responsive in a way that 99.9% of people aren't and you know, I get invited to a lot of random stuff that I, some of it's actually probably really cool. I mean, I've definitely missed out of cool stuff, but I just, the time that it takes to respond and then the thing is one email always begets more email, one text message, always begets more text.

Taylor: It's like you say, that's not a fit for me or I can't do that. Or I'm busy right now. And then someone follows up with you. And I just feel like if people don't expect a response, they won't go to you looking for one. I don't know. Like they just kind of, and since I've written about it, I feel like it's a little bit more, I mean, with email, I'm just kind of like, look at this point, I wrote about it publicly. So, and I have that autoresponder. I wish you could have autoresponder for iMessage. I wish I like, I hope Tim cook is listening. Cause I wanna be able to set in away message on iMessage and just be like,

Kate: I,

Taylor: Why I like I'm I'm well,

Doree: You office, you used to be able to do that on aim. Like it's like away messages are from like the original days of the internet. Like, it seems odd that we can't have them anymore,

Kate: But isn't it possible that, that we're like, cuz for example, I would love one on Instagram, but these platforms making them because they want us to constantly be being bombarded by them.

Taylor: Yeah. I think that's part of it for sure. I, I think like also just there's no concept of like online and offline time, like yeah, I'll be online on Instagram, but not wanting to reply to certain people. And I almost don't it's like, I, I don't know. I, I wish that you could customize it a little more too. Like instead of like muting someone, like they would just get this away message. Um, cuz I mute people all the time. When they text me, I mute almost everyone who texts me.

Kate: I I'm genuinely impressed boundary because I have, have feel like sense of self security because I would be constantly worried that someone's offended. But you've, it sounds like you're able to let that go.

Taylor: Yeah.

Kate: Or maybe that's not your thing.

Taylor: No, I, I have a lot of like insecurities around that and like I, the big thing is with students. I mean, so many students reach out to me and I always try and respond to them. But with most stuff, especially like as a journalist, just most stuff like PR spam or people asking you for things and I'm just like, no, I'm, I'm sorry. No, like there's just no way that I could do my job and be a responsive person. And so I just kind of am like, look, this is the way it is. And maybe that makes you think I'm an asshole. I I'm not like, I mean I really try, but I just, I can't, I can't, I wish I could, I don't have that many hours and I wish that I, I, I do think that I, everyone deserves a response, but it's not a matter of deserving cuz I just don't have the time to do it. Like it just right. So, and like I said, any friend of mine knows this like a close friend of mine. Like all of my friends are so aware of my weird habits and they just call me on the phone. I was just on the phone with my friend, Zach actually right before I, um, got on with you guys and yeah, they'll just call me out of the blue cuz they know that's the only way to reach me.

Kate: It also kind of reminded, I mean it's kind of connecting to a piece of yours that I think just might have come out today that touches on this idea of like, like if a tree falls in the woods and no one's there to hear it. Does it make a sound kind of like if you don't post it on the internet, does it count? Does it matter? Did we do it? Um, and I, I find this is becoming more and more of a strange, stressful part of life for me. I'm I'm wondering if you have thoughts on this of kind of the pressure to constantly put everything online and if it's not, does it have the same value?

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I also have insane boundaries around this. Um, I never post anything online about my personal life if ever, ever I haven't since 2016. Um, that's when I stopped. Um, so I'll never post, no one knows where I am really or what I'm doing at all. Um, sometimes, um, I'll post on close friends. Maybe, maybe if I'm with another journalist. Um, but that's pretty much it and no one, you know, my actual friends that are like offline friends that I have, I, you know, people don't even know, I don't, I don't really want anyone to ever get a sense of my social circle or a sense of where I am or what my life is like. So I like don't post that, but it's, it's so true in the sense that like, I really keep like my whole internet personality online. But um, so yeah, it's so true cuz people, I mean, there's a lot of cool stuff that I do that there's this pressure to post and a lot of times like you're at some Prada event or something and it's like, they want you to post and I'm just like, no, because then it just opens the door and, and then people, then people have an opinion on what you're posting, um, or who you're with.

Taylor: And I just, I don't, I don't like that. I've had a couple things like where people have taken it too far and kind of like, I have a lot of, um, attention from like bad people and a stalker and stuff. So like I just, I think it's just made me like really lock it down. Um, but it's sad. It's sad cuz I don't have those memories like cataloged anywhere on the it's like none of it happened, which makes me sad. I I'm nostalgic for like 2009 to 2015 when I was like posting about everything in my life with abandon, which seems crazy now. But it, at least it was this like record this like public record. Whereas there's not, there's no record really now.

Doree: You know, it's interesting to hear you say that because I feel like, you know, you, you talk, you've talked a lot about kind of journalists as brands and come under fire from, I guess what I would call like more traditional journalists for some of what you say. And I feel like they conflate a lot of this. Like it seems like in their minds, journalists being brands means that you are partly means that you're like bringing all of your personal life to your journalism. But like you're in fact saying that you do the opposite. Exactly.

Taylor: Yeah. I do the complete opposite. I I think people that say that have like literally never read my work, like, and aren't familiar with the fact that people know me. I mean, my brand is breaking stories about my beat. I mean, I'm known as like a, I'm known for being a journalist. I'm not known for how I dress or what I do or like where I go, you know, being friends with certain famous people, like I'm known for my work and my scoops, um, which is why I think all of those arguments ultimately never stick and people have been making those arguments about me since 2009. Um, and it always falls flat because ultimately I deliver good stories and that's why people follow me. And I actually think that helps me build my brand. Like I'm building a brand around my work. I'm not building a brand around like, oh look I'm with this XYZ famous person.

Taylor: Or, you know, I know a lot of really big influencers from covering the space for a long time. Like I'm not, I don't wanna like clout ride off of that. I'm sure I could be more famous than I am, but it's like, I want people to follow me because they're like, oh, she's gonna post content that I like. Or like she has this point of view about the internet that I like, like, and it's that point of view and opinion or reporting that I want them to follow. Not like, yeah, my personal life, which is of course so ironic because a lot of those people, you know, I saw shortly after everyone was like, you know, having that whole debate online of like should journalists be brands. And then there's entire section of people, magazine of white house correspondence, um, you know, releasing exclusive baby photos and you know,

Doree: Talking hilarious

Taylor: About their outfits on TV. It's just like guys look in the mirror, I'm just doing stuff on the internet. And I, there people are always so confused. Like use the internet. I don't it's like this conundrum where I'm sure to you guys, it seems crazy too. I hope, I don't know. I feel like you guys are online and get it, but certain people don't. I dunno.

Doree: I mean, why, why do you think these conversations are so threatening, um, to especi actually to other journalists and like kind of along those lines, like why, why do you think this has become, like, why do you think you have become such a polarizing figure? Like it seems like a lot of people are sort of like projecting a lot of things onto you. Yes,

Taylor: Yes, yes. I think I'm like a mirror. I was talking to somebody, uh, a friend of mine who has like, I don't know, she's like an idol of mine and um, I've always looked up to her and she's been on the beat since like longer than me and she's just so good. And um, she was just sort of talking to me and saying some of that, just like how people project, this notion of something, it's kind of everything they hate about the internet. Like they're gonna project onto me because I'm covering the internet and it's like, you know, I get it. Like, we all hate those. Like self-involved asshole people online. Maybe that's not, I, you know, I'm not an influence. Like I don't know. Maybe it's cuz of the things I cover. People think have this Ajay to things. Um, even though I don't embody them, but I'm also outspoken and opinionated and like, you know, we'll say what I think and we'll call bullshit if I see it.

Taylor: And like, I think also that just attracts attention on the internet. Like people don't like when women are like that in general, but it's weird. I mean, people write these long things. I read a, oh my God, the worst place ever to spend time. But I read this long, read it thread yesterday that someone sent me that someone wrote about me and it's just like, it's like fan fiction. Like I'm just like, none of this is reality. Like they're just none. You guys don't even have like basic facts about my life. Right? I mean, half my Wikipedia is just like not correct. And I thought about correcting some of it. It, but then people really then you're giving factual information to people and I don't want anybody to know about my life. So it's just kind of, I'm like, whatever, believe whatever you want. But you know, it's like that meme. It's like the girls who get it, get it. The girls who don't don't I'm like the girls that read my work, the people that read my work, get it, then follow me. They get it. If you wanna project whatever you project onto me, like that's on you. That, that says more about how you view the internet than you know anything I do. I dunno. Um,

Kate: It's so strange with everybody having access to a platform and I mean, there's like a TikTok, I'm sure you seen it of a woman in a car and she's like, we did it. We've got no more hot takes love. Can you believe it? Which I've watched it so many times and I love it, but it's, we are kind of in this like hot take opinion vacuum that it can become like one, it can fuel rage. I know it has for me with just why I had to leave Twitter, but two, it can also like, it gives us platform for our rage and oftentimes it's so misplaced and

Taylor: It's so misplaced not to interrupt, but it's so

Kate: No, please

Taylor: It's so misplaced and it, it really bothers me, you know, especially you talk about like journalists and brands. Like, I mean the quote that set everyone off is me talking about IP rights and how journalists deserve more ownership of their IP and deserve more FA fair pay, like, you know, ad splits and things. If they produce like a hit podcast for instance or whatever. And instead it's like, people just wanna litigate because I said the word brand and wanna have a whole referendum on influencer culture again. And it's like, guys, this is such a derailment of, of like the issues that I feel like are actually really important to talk about when we think about digital media. So I don't know, it's, it's a weird thing to say and I totally forgot what I was just about to say. That's not what I started to say and I forgot what I was gonna say, but whatever, it's all it's oh, the internet.

Taylor: Oh, the hot take stuff too. Oh yeah. Um, it's just like people, people also just say anything they want on the internet and people believe them. I mean, I've, I've seen people say just especially TikTok. I mean, people just say like the most outrageous stuff and then that's taken as fact. Um, and I just think we're living in this wild world where it's really more about like narrative driving and like, are you telling a successful narrative and is your opinion, like a lot of people with these opinion, you know, these like opinion type people or sub or whatever, right? Like they're just like pushing hot take after hot take that really all feed into specific sort of ideology or worldview. And I think that's harmful. I want people to get out of that cycle and like, you know, I don't know, find the truth and pay attention to people that are telling the truth and not just people that are giving hot takes that they like over and over can.

Doree: I mean, I feel like that's, that's the, that's the problem with yeah. I mean, right, exactly.

Kate: It's the conundrum of the internet, right? Like that's the, yeah. Can we, can we, um, back up a little bit and just kind of have a, a bridge to version of your career path and how you really ended up focusing so deeply on digital culture?

Taylor: Yeah. Um, my career path is so long, like weird, cause I always have like multiple jobs at once. Um, but basically it started in 2009 because I got on Tumblr. Do, were you, you guys run Tumblr, right?

Kate: Oh yes. I feel like

Taylor: That's where we love you. No way.

Doree: Yeah. Yeah. Kate and I met on Tumblr. Yep.

Taylor: I followed both of you guys. Um, I actually remembered, now that I did follow, I was like, did I follow one or both? I did. I was addicted. I mean, that was 2009. Tumblr was like the best internet of my life. It's like, you know, that scene eighth grade when she goes online, do you guys get movie? That's when I felt, when I like went on Tumblr the first time I was just like, what is this? I was at a shitty temp job. Um, I graduated into the recession, like many millennials and I, uh, was working at this horrible temp job. And this girl that I shared a cubicle because we had to literally share on cubicle. Oh

Kate: My God. Oh.

Taylor: Um, I was like, I'm on Tumblr all day. And I was like, what's that? And I got on and I had had this really more restrictive sort of growing up. And I, I had severe, um, ADHD and learning disabilities and I'd actually not been on the internet like ever. Like I had, I mean, I was on it, but like not in an intense way. I had Facebook in college obviously and stuff, but like, I wasn't really like an, I, you know, I didn't have a MySpace. I wasn't really, I just was really to myself. And I was thought that I was gonna be an artist and I was painting a lot and working at this shitty job and at a call center also. And um, yeah, then I got on Tumblr and I was like, wait a minute. Like, this is amazing. Like also what is, this is so cool.

Taylor: There's like all these people. And I started just making Tumblrs all the time and like getting really into Tumblr, like meeting tons of people from Tumblr and then Tumblr, you know, people at Tumblr started inviting me these events. And that was the early days of, um, digital media. So a lot of other people that were young at that time, like millennial, you know, whack when millennials were young, um, were like also doing stuff like that. And so we all just kind of became friends and also a lot of people that were big YouTubers, like first generation YouTubers that were big on Tumblr. I met them through Tumblr. So we became friends cuz it was like, that was like before it was cool to be a YouTuber too. Um, and uh, yeah, so I went from there to working at a ad agency that people at Tumblr helped me sort of get my door in or get my foot in the door.

Taylor: I was running social media for brands. And then I started running social media for media brands. I met actually, um, I started blog. I was writing for a bunch of blogs about internet culture stuff, basically just like I hated the way that people wrote about Tumblr. Um, and I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell people how it really is and like write the real stories. Um, and I, I just have always looked up to Katie and tops, um, who was so good and also like Jenna Worthham and Amanda HES, like Jenna tech reporter, but writing about tech in a more cultural way. And Amanda was so good. And I just was like saw these other people. And I was like, oh, they're cool. And then I never really considered being a reporter myself until I met a reporter in like, um, 2010 or 2011.

Taylor: I met this guy who was around my age at, worked at the New York times. And I was like, wait, this guy works at the New York times. Like I, I should, I could write for the New York times, like if he can write for the New York times, I can write for the New York times. So I just obviously ended up writing for the New York times, but that's what gave me an idea to start kind of getting more into journalism. But for most of my career, I was a social media director and editor and did that until 2017 is when I made the switch to just writing full time. Aside from that, I was a, was writing on the side anyway, that's a, a very abridged version, but um, that's kind of what got me into it.

Kate: I like that you went from the inside as a social media manager to the outside covering it.

Taylor: Well, I think you're like, I'm still in it. Like I, and I had a, I had a following, so I had a following on Tumblr and people, you know, my stuff would do well. And I was getting to write for these blogs because I was developing this following and people started to know me. And so, and like, I just, I wanted to write about the internet from the point of view of somebody that actually was like in it, because I thought that all these journalists were like so condescending and they were so condescending about people building for lack of word brands, like the way that people were talking about YouTubers. And I, I was just like, I know these people and they're actually really smart. And actually this is the future of media. I mean, it goes back to like when I had that first conversation with that New York times reporter, I was like, you know, he was a media reporter and I was like, okay, you're talking about media. But like, I know what it's really gonna be like in media. Like, um, we should be, somebody should cover this stuff. So I just wanted to write about it

Kate: On a broader level that scorn from older generations, I think trickles down as well. And I know, I know that with TikTok for the first time in my life, I'm feeling like I don't know how to use this and that feels scary to me and I don't quite get it and I'm scared and confused. And I think that's like, this is the kind of generational prog risk that keeps happening. And I would love your thoughts on this because I don't want to become like an outdated husk of an old person, but I am in my forties. Uh, you know, it's hard to keep up. We are not like the number one generation running the show that's gen Z, you right now. And so how do, like how do older people participate and UN and, and understand like trends and memes and new platforms that younger generations are like utilizing in a way that is changing culture?

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I guess I, um, it comes down to, open-mindedness kind of not to say that you are not very openminded, but um, oh,

Kate: I like, I'm confused about

Taylor: TikTok. Yeah. Like, um, you know, I don't know, like people always ask me this of like, how do you keep up or whatever, the older I get, I used to be like the young reporter now. They're like, oh, you know, how do you keep up with the kids or whatever. It's like, I, I just, I don't know, like I just kind of listen, like keep an open mind and absorb a lot, kind of, and just ask a lot of questions and just I'm like, oh, what does that do? Or like, oh, what's that kind of thing. Like, and just don't really judge. I mean, I guess it's just not judging or not thinking something stupid or not like immediately writing it off. I will down the, of like anything with a login page. And I just, I mean, I fundamentally love technology and that's why I cover the beat that I do.

Taylor: And I consider myself a tech reporter. So, you know, I'll download any app and try and figure it out, but I can understand, like, it's not part of your daily usage. Like it, it, there suddenly you, you can't use something and it's very popular and it's disconcerting, but I feel like it's just like, I don't know, just felt like being open and asking people and kind of just finding, going down rabbit holes and finding good curators, I'll say in terms of keeping top on memes, like you don't have to know every meme, but I think it's just like finding, following the right people and finding kind of like people that get it that are curating things for you. If that makes

Kate: Sense. I learned a lot of stuff from you. I didn't understand algo speak and how, how it manifested until I read your piece on it, which was fascinating.

Taylor: Thank you. You. Yeah.

Doree: Okay.

Kate: Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. We are back.

Doree: Well, I mean, Taylor, I am sort of curious, like you, you are one of the most prolific journalists working today. Oh,

Taylor: Okay. Hype me

Doree: Up more. You, I mean, you seriously are so prolific. Well, but I mean, between like I'm having a bad article, you write so nice. The articles you write your talks, like you're just, I mean, you produce so much content and I'm just

Kate: A lot of stories.

Doree: You break a lot of news. Like, how do you do that? Oh yeah. I

Taylor: Was thinking, so I have, you know, I have like 30, I think 37 Instagram accounts now, but, um, I have like five main ones. I know. Just always start accounts everywhere. Um, and one of my ones, my other ones, that's like my main sort of repost page hit 10 K. And I was like, oh, I love it. And this other journalist is like, well, how are you doing this on top of your job or something? I'm just like, I don't even, it doesn't take away from my job. I just kind of do everything. I, I think, okay, well, anyway, sorry, I'm rambling. Um, but I think that my brain is set up in a way where it makes me able to do this job because I have severe, severe ADHD. Um, and it really hindered the whole first part of my life, um, in a, in a really major way.

Taylor: And I think I found this like thing that I can do. And it's like, I think like I have like hyper fixation sort of periods. And like, I can just like do things in a way that like no normal, healthy person would probably do. And I think that's like maybe bad. Um, but, but ultimately fine. I'm not like, you know, staying up for four days on end about something. But I do think like I, I get obsessed with things and like really like love talking to people and love learning things. And I have like just a never ending kind of like attention span thing. So I just, anyway, I don't know. That's not to say people that aren't like that can't do it, but I just notice that like friends of mine met don't have those types of tendencies, like always find it to understand. And the friends of mine that do have tendencies like that, they kind of like get it, um, in a way. I don't know how to explain it.

Doree: Can I ask there's a

Taylor: Talk that sums this up? Yes.

Kate: Oh no, I, I wanna, I wanted to just go back to what you said about it being your, your ADHD and how it impacted your half, you know, the first half of your life in a really negative way. I was diagnosed with ADHD, like as an adult very recently. And that's been, I've been doing a lot of learning about myself and I would love to, and we have a lot of listeners who also, uh, deal with ADHD. And I would just love to hear if you're open to sharing a little bit more about your experience and how you have kind of, I mean, I, I love hearing you speak positively about it because so often, especially growing up, it was positioned as a negative thing. Yeah.

Taylor: Um, well, I mean, it was really hard because it was the nineties when I was growing up, like I was a nineties, like a kid in the nineties when there was no understanding of this. And I was horrible in school. I mean, I think I ended up graduating with like a 1.7 GPA. Maybe I went to multiple schools, multiple colleges. Um, I ended up graduating basically by doing study abroad program, uh, in order to, to finish school in high school. Um, cuz it was so hard. So I just, I mean, ADHD manifests really differently in, in other people's, you know, everyone has different symptoms. Um, but for me I just have like really bad problems, um, concentrating and communicating with people kind of really to people. Um, and I was very, very, very like shy and then I would over talk and I, I had like social problems, I guess you can say.

Taylor: So I was just kind of a weird person in school. So I was like socially ostracized when I was younger. And then the school system, I went to public school, I always went to public school growing up in the suburb that like really just didn't know what to, how to teach to the people with those issues. And so I would just, I was really into art and music and things like that. Um, but ultimately, like I said, I, when I got on the internet and I got into Tumblr and when I discovered these like sort of endless online worlds, I just, I think get just kind of like fed that like endless curiosity that I have and constant need for like new, like things to learn about. Um, and so I just, I don't know. It just, it kind of helped me and also I'm just older and I can like recognize things now and, but it's, it's hard.

Taylor: I mean, it's hard to like, it's still hard to communi and I, I'm not like I'm out there online in a way that I'm not in person for sure. Um, so I don't even know if that answered your question, but I think it's hard. And I think like there's so much more awareness of it now I was on this NPR segment like a month ago and they were like, everyone is self diagnosing themselves with ADHD on TikTok. And I was like, honestly, good that they're, I mean, who knows if they have it or not, but like, there's just, it's good to have more like awareness of these things and awareness of like neuro divergence in general. Um, because there's things that would've been a lot better for me growing up if there was knowledge of that.

Kate: Oh yeah. I mean, just the other day I realized that I am neuro divergent. Like that's a word I can and should be using. And I was just like, oh wow. And so, I mean, so much of the conversation around mental health is happening on TikTok. And I see like think of adults, my age are sending each other videos about ADHD and, and other, you know, mental health issues that they might have. And it's being discussed in a way that didn't exist for us when we were kids. I mean, every like that could be said about a million things. Yeah. Right now online.

Taylor: And it's hard because the internet aggravates it, I mean, I'm like extremely impulsive and like the, that's not always the best tendency to have when you're like an internet user, you know? Um, but it's, it's, it's like a bad, you know, EV like everything with the internet, it's a good, it's a good and a bad, I think it's overwhelmingly good eventually, but I think these platforms are bad cuz they wanna exploit all of these issues and exacerbate them. But um, yeah, just being able to connect with other people has been so good. Like I said, my friend, my, my one friend Barry, who, um, works in tech, like we're, we have very similar personalities and it's just like so nice to even know someone that's like me and instead of sort of trying to fit in with people that never really got it. You know what I mean? So, yeah.

Doree: Yeah. Um, I also, I wanna ask also about, um, you, you tweet a lot about long COVID. Yes. Um, I care about this and I'm wondering yeah. What is your connection to it and kind of where do you, where do you think things stand with it right now?

Taylor: Yeah. I have several close friends and a family member, um, that are, are dealing with this. Um, I'm I also have a bunch of like chronic health issues. Um, so I sort of like care a lot about that stuff in general and I always have, um, and also just care about seeing, I mean, even if I didn't have friends directly, I think watching your friends and seeing what the are going through is so hard. Um, but then also just, you mean even reading stories online, I'm like, oh my God. Um, but yeah, you know, I, I think that there's a lot of discussions that are happening around COVID that are just completely excluding, um, people with chronic illness and disability. And um, I care a lot about like disability to justice or whatever, you know, you wanna call it and just healthcare. Um, because I've had a lot of bad experiences.

Taylor: I've also talked a lot about my medical debt cause I've had some bad experiences with the healthcare system. And um, I, I just think like I have a platform in a level of credibility where I can talk about things I care about. I kind of changed in the pay cause I used to not talk about, I used to not like use my platform for talking about issues. Cause I thought it would make it hard to get hired. And now I'm like, I'm pretty good at my job and I've everyone knows me now. So I can tell you about these things that I care about and long COVID. I just think like, you know, I have several friends that, um, have gotten really sick and, and are remain very sick and are basically bedbound. And um, you know, it's just a significant amount of people that get, COVID never recover from it.

Taylor: They never recover. They have a lifetime of chronic illness and, and they die, um, sooner than they would. Right. Eventually. Um, that's what chronic illness usually does. And so, um, or you have a greatly diminished life. And I also know people that have me CFS, um, which is also like chronic fatigue is what some people call it, but it's basically, it's very similar to long COVID and know that's another condition that has been so maligned I'm from Connecticut as well. And um, also saw friends of mine personally that were affected by long Lyme disease in, in this way. That is very under acknowledged. So, um, I'm, you know, I just, I want the medical establishment to really invest in treatments and cures because what's really scary as someone that covers online misinformation and stuff is just the amount of, um, stuff that these kind of like, you know, people get sick with something like long COVID, they're completely ignored by the medical establishment, the media intentionally minimizes it.

Taylor: And then they, the only people that really listen to them are a lot of times bad actors, you know, people that are intent on selling, um, miracle cures or peddling misinformation and, and basically exploiting disabled and chronically ill people. So I just really try to talk about it and talk about it as an issue and encourage journalists to actually like, think about the fact that not everyone is healthy and there's disabled people out there and there's high risk people out there and we're all probably gonna be those people at some point in life, no one remains healthy their entire life. I don't think, um, we all have something right. And or we have a family member or somebody that we live with. So I just really want people to remember that it's like people, it's fine if you yourself feel safe, but just, I mean, I treated this recently.

Taylor: Like imagine if somebody told you only have a 15% chance of surviving COVID, you know, like one of my friends was telling me this recently, which is basically what she has, um, which, how would you be able to operate in the world? Like, but, and you did quote unquote everything, right? I hate when people say, oh, they did everything right. Vaccinated people. I mean, obviously of course, overwhelmingly vaccination protects you. I'm very pro, but say you have these underlying conditions or say you are elderly. It's not completely protective. And I just think we need to look out for everyone. Um, I care a lot about that stuff. That's why I post about it a lot. I care. I'm like,

Doree: No, I mean, you've definitely like raised my awareness of it. So

Taylor: Thank you. It should be a consideration. It should be a consideration. And we should think about the way that we S really addresses these issues. I think, you know, people think, oh, you're shaming people or something. I'm like, no, I just want, I want everyone to pressure our leaders and our media to do better and consider that not everyone is perfectly able bodied or healthy at every point in their life. Right. Um, so whatever. Yeah. I just really go on, on and on about that. I always try and push the limit. I'm like, wow, how much can I say before I get in trouble, but

Kate: Well, but you also, like this kind of leads into a question I have because you in doing so I think you highlight one of the positive aspects of the internet. Like as Doree just mentioned, she learned a, she's learned a lot about, about this topic from you specifically. Like there, there are so many amazing things that come through the digital space, but also it's like a full there's, like a full on evil empire also have putting, so like, do you, do you think the internet can be, and is, is still a place for good? I mean, it felt so earnest when I first got on it, like 1993. Um, and I, I would also love to know, like, what do you see kind of evolving and happening in the space, um, that people should be aware of.

Taylor: Yeah. I we're in this, like, I mean, we're in this transition period right now. So we're in this time where, like you're saying, there's, it's just, it's like the worst and I've experienced a lot of it. I mean, I've dealt with like absolutely wild stuff the past couple years in terms of like, um, stalking and, and abuse and stuff that happens online. And I've definitely got my, I taste of the dark side. I feel like I was a little bit, I always knew there was that stuff. And I had friends that were dealt with gamer gate, but I kind of, I wasn't, I it's, you, you don't ever really learn anything until you unfortunately experience it. And now that I've experienced it, I'm like, whoa. Yeah, the bad is really bad, but the good is really good. So I think we're, it's this tension and in Silicon valley and these big tech companies want a very dystopian, dark version of the future where everyone is sort of exploited and things are bad. I, I don't, I hope that that's not the vision, but I hope that doesn't mean that people think we need to abandon technology or lean less into living online because I think overwhelmingly that can be there. There's good in that. Um, it's just about sort of like building the internet that we want and, and building systems that we want. Um, I already forgot what you just asked me. Oh my God. Is it gonna be good? What did you say?

Kate: Yeah. Well, here's a, here's a question. Here's a kind of a different question. Do I need to understand and participate in NFT?

Taylor: No. I mean maybe. Okay. Not yet though. It's fine. Okay. You, you can. I mean, I do, but like, um, I think that is at, we're at, it's a, we're in a little bit of a bubble and there's gonna be bigger and bigger bubbles, but I don't think it's, it's being sold as this future of the internet when it's not the future of the internet is going to look more decentralized. That's undeniable, but it's not gonna be, you know what it is right now, so don't worry.

Kate: Okay, good. That makes me feel better. Taylor.

Doree: Um, can you talk a little bit about the book that you have coming out next,

Taylor: Next year, year. I know books, timelines are really long. Also I'm a procrastinator. Yes. Um, so I'm late. I like, I mean, I had so much crazy stuff happen to me last year and I got so derailed. Um, but yeah, I'm writing a book that's sort of about the rise of the online creator industry. So it's kind of a little bit of like, it's, it's sort of, it's kind of the worst topic cuz I picked it's so broad. I'm like I just written a history of vine, but, or something like I should have just kept it narrow, but it's kinda just about this industry. I mean, I write about the online creator, influencer industry, whatever you wanna call it. It's about how that emerged from bloggers like early mommy blogging and people having voices and, and all of that. And pioneering these revenue models to obviously YouTubers, to streamers, to talkers and everything that it is today too, where online influences just kind of baked into everything.

Taylor: Um, I mean, NFTs are a good example of that. So, uh, yeah, it's with Simon and shoe starts coming out next year. I think like next summer, next spring, when I, I have to finish, I'm like 70% done with a draft, but I've procrastinating the last 30%. I've also just gone on so many I, 15,000 words on like grumpy cat and like, I need to like, it's hard. Like I said, I have like a, I it's, I get fixated on things and it's hard for me to like go half on anything. So I've, it's like somehow I've written like 150,000 words, but like also not done with my book and it needs to be like a quarter of that. So we'll see how it turns out.

Doree: Yes. Yes. I think Kate and I can both

Taylor: Relate. I'm sure

Kate: It's nightmare. Um, I have a incredibly important con uh, question to ask you, which is, can you talk to us about your eyeliner because in every TikTok of yours, I watch your eyeliner looks amazing and I'm drawn to it instantly, which means you're, you know what you're doing? You do a really like an almost from what I can tell almost a cat eye, but like not quite

Taylor: Not coat cuz I've hooded eyes so that the cat eye, I, I still have not mastered a good cat eye. True cat.

Kate: Well, I'm obsessed with what you're doing with your eyeliner. I would love to know how you learned. Was it a journey and do you have a favorite product

Taylor: That you yes. Well, I learned as, as we all do on YouTube, um, I watched a bunch of tutorials about how to do like cat eyes for like hooded. I, I can never do like really good, true cat eyes. Like my friend Sandra does them amazing. And I'm just like, how do you do it? But, um, I do, I use the Laurie, Laura, me like tight line stuff and I, um, mix a little LAIs in it. I like wet my brush with LAIs and then I to keep my ashes on and then I, um, apply it. And I like, I like do it really tight to the edge of my eye. Like almost as half circle kind of on the outside. And then I do always do both sides. You know, I do it underneath too. And then I, uh, curl my ashes and go, but it's like my own technique for my own eye shape because my eye shape's like kind of, I don't know, I can't do the full cat eye, but it thank you for saying that it works. Um,

Kate: Sure. Oh it doesn't, it doesn't just work. It's like aspirational. It's like on the level of Taylor Swifts, eyeliner, so wow.

Taylor: Oh my God,

Kate: You guys that's that's you gotta own it.

Taylor: I'm not great with makeup. Um, really, I'm not, I that's like one of those things where I need to get better. I have a, a zillion teenage cousins and like younger cousins and they're all like so good. Cause they grew up watching beauty, YouTube trails. And I feel like I didn't discover that world into my twenties. So I'm like, oh I have all this like bad muscle memory from like smearing Jane eye, you know, eyeshadow my eyes for like 10 years. So yeah. I still have to a little way to

Kate: Go. We, we talk about that a lot. It's it's hard. We didn't really quite grow up with like all we had were magazines. Like we didn't have access to all these people educating us for free about how to do makeup. Like I literally went to John Robert power's modeling school.

Taylor: Wow.

Kate: So yeah. Doree. Did you know that, that I went to modeling

Doree: School. I feel like we did talk about this at one point.

Kate: That's where I learned how to put on makeup. I'm

Taylor: I am model for the limited two, uh, once.

Doree: Oh, I

Kate: Whoa. A nineties girl, real real kid.

Taylor: They had the real kids they had like they wanted like real kids. Oh

Doree: Yeah, yeah.

Taylor: But um, yeah, makeup is, is an ongoing thing. I'm always, I always notice it on other people and I'm like, how did you do that? Uh I'm I mean, my skincare routine is sort of like notoriously terrible and I need to like get better at, at that. I feel like fixing some base issues would fix my skin issues. I'm always trying to like, I'd be like, how do people put concealer on, in a way that doesn't look terrible? I cannot do it.

Kate: I don't have the answer yet.

Doree: Taylor, this was a delight. Um,

Taylor: This was so fun where, yeah,

Doree: This was really fun. Where can our listeners, if our listeners wanna kind of follow along with you,

Taylor: Where to follow me,

Kate: Where to follow, what's like five of I out of your 37 Instagrams. Should we follow? I follow two.

Taylor: I think my main and my 3.0 yeah, those are like my main ones. Um, and then I have great a TikTok, which is my TikTok repost page. And then I have like a bird meme account and, and I have like a spam, like a Penta. But my main, I mean, I would say like for news care about long COVID, if you wanna like follow me, like for like commentary and opinions and Twitter drama, Twitter, for sure. Instagram is more, I just post like funny memes and I do post news. I post my articles. I have a SubT stack. You can subscribe to if you want like alerts for when my articles go up. Um, and then yeah, I mean, I I'm, I'm kind of like everywhere. It just depends. But Instagram and Twitter are my main ones. Um, so yeah.

Doree: All right. Well this was, this was really, really fun to talk to you. So thank you.

Taylor: Oh, I on TikTok too, I forgot to say,

Doree: Oh yes.

Kate: I love your like half a million followers.

Taylor: Yeah. Well, I've been on since musically. I was like musically posting during the 2016 election. Actually. I've been on it since the beginning. I mean, I'm on, yeah. I have a lot of legacy followers, but um, follow me there. You're

Doree: An Earl, you are an early adopter

Taylor: Love technology. I love, I wish I could live inside a computer sometimes. Like I wanna, one time I was on a job and like you and the editor in chief of this really big newspaper that I don't work for, uh, was like, um, would you put a computer in your brain? And I was like, he's like, I ask every tech reporter this. And I said, of course. And he was like, oh, you're the only one that said yes. Was like, no, I would, I wouldn't let like Elon Musk funny my brain, but God think how easy it would be if you didn't have to, if you just had Wikipedia in your brain. Pretty nice. Anyway, Eric, I

Doree: Think we're gonna end the interview now

Taylor: Tangent, but no, thank you guys so much for having me. This was so fun and I had a great time.

Doree: Thank you. This was really fun.

Kate: I mean, wow. Just wow.

Doree: Wow. I know. Do you feel like you learned stuff from talking to her?

Kate: I just thought her, her boundary setting and kind of like do not give a fuck attitude about it was like both like made me anxious, but also was inspiring. You know what I mean? Like she clearly has a sense of what she needs to do in order to be able to enjoy her private life and also keep doing the work she's doing. And I just was like, wow, that was very impressive to me.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: I don't know. Did you learn anything

Doree: Mean? I, yeah, I don't know. It just, it was, I did learn a lot from her. I, uh, it was just really, really interesting to hear from, I mean, I've known her for a long time, but her career has just sort of gone like stratospheric in a way that is like pretty wild. So it was just interesting to kind of hear her perspective on all that stuff. Um, anyway, Kate,

Kate: Yes, I've really been failing with the intentions and like, look, I know failure is part of the process. I haven't done my intention from last week and I've been instead, I've been living in, like I said, previously, just chaos. I'm supposed to organize all my pills, which are just floating around on the dining room table. I haven't, I just moved them to a new area, but I haven't organized them. I really want to do this. I don't know why. I mean, I do know why. Look, I, it's all I talk about in therapy brain. I get it now. That's why I haven't done it. So stay and bye.

Doree: That's fine.

Kate: Thank you, Doree. My intention. I need to foam roll and stretch. This is the thing I talk a lot about with, uh, the trainer that I work with. Really making sure I stretch and foal every day, whether I'm doing any sort of fitnessy thing or not. That's a really great way to take care of our bodies, especially, you know, my creaky knees. So there, there it is. Foam and stretch.

Doree: Okay.

Kate: All right. Lay it on me Doree, take me down your road. It's okay.

Doree: I, my intention last week was to do my nightly to-do list. Mm. And I've been doing it. Ive been brain dumping all over. My

Kate: You've been taking a little brain done

Doree: Disgusting. Um, my undated planner pad pallets pad and yeah. And yeah, it's just, it's been working for me now this week. I have a sort of unusual intention. I have realized that I have a circadian rhythm for work.

Kate: Oh.

Doree: Like, and I want to sort of honor that

Kate: Like the time when you work best and the time when you need to take a break. Okay.

Doree: Yeah. Like I think, you know, I, I need, I really need to like harness the power of before lunch.

Kate: Oh yeah. That's a key time.

Doree: I think before lunch is like really when I'm at my best,

Kate: It's when the magic happens for me too. I will say.

Doree: Yeah. So I just wanna kind of like lean into that. I've also been, I've been doing some work at night lately and I, I was not historically a night great working person, but I don't know. I've just kind of been going with it. I don't know Kate, it's a whole new world over here.

Kate: I support it. I think that's wonderful.

Doree: Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, so yeah, so that's, that's what's going on over here,

Kate: Right? Well, I can't wait to hear if you succeed next week. I mean, but what is success anyway? You know what I'm saying?

Doree: That's true. Well, we should, we should tell everyone that forever 35 is hosted and produced by me. Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, our network partner is Acast. Talk to you again soon. Bye bye.